dl021
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D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:19 pm

One of the most important events in the lead up to me coming into this world started early this morning 68 years ago when three gliders full of British soldiers landed at Ouistreham in France, and the pathfinder platoons of the parachute forces started setting up the DZs, leading the way for thousands of Allied soldiers, sailors, coast guardsmen and airmen to come begin the liberation of France, and truly start the end of the war with The Axis.

My mother was 9 years old, hidden in LePuy, under a false name with my grandparents and uncle, with time running out as the Nazis and their collaborators continued to root out Jews and others for death camps.

These brave soldiers, and the nations that stood up, saved my family, and by extension ensured my presence here. I'm eternally grateful. I met many of these men through my life, served with the 82d Airborne partly in homage and from a sense of duty and repayment, and walked the battlefields near my uncles home in Normandy. I've sat in the cemetery at Colleville and contemplated the sacrifices made, and hoped to do my part to ensure that they were not wasted on my behalf.

Thank you to you servicemen and women who served and sacrificed, thank you to you family members who sent your loved ones...some who gave all. Thank you.
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flyingturtle
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:38 pm

I remember watching the 50th anniversary on TV. Learning about D-Day was just the begin for my obsession about WWII history.

Thanks to all Allied countried for their sacrifice.


David
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MadameConcorde
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:48 pm

Here in France the news of the 6 June landing on the beaches of Normandy is barely talked about if not at all. I guess priorities have changed.

Today's main news topics:

A decree lowering retirement age to 60 by the new president and government.
A "normal" president making visits to provincial towns.
Canadian psycho Luka Magnotta
Jerome Kerviel Societé Générale bank trader court case
Hosni Mubarak possibly transferred to a hospital
French parliamentary elections
Sports with new star tennis player Tsonga and the France-Estonia football match.

Nothing on 6 June and D Day beaches landings in news titles...

 Wow!
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slider
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Here in France the news of the 6 June landing on the beaches of Normandy is barely talked about if not at all. I guess priorities have changed.

Today's main news topics:

A decree lowering retirement age to 60 by the new president and government.
A "normal" president making visits to provincial towns.
Canadian psycho Luka Magnotta
Jerome Kerviel Societé Générale bank trader court case
Hosni Mubarak possibly transferred to a hospital
French parliamentary elections
Sports with new star tennis player Tsonga and the France-Estonia football match.

Nothing on 6 June and D Day beaches landings in news titles...

That's a damned shame. It ought to lead the news every single year.
 
Confuscius
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting dl021 (Thread starter):
D-Day: 6 June 1944  

The Longest Day
Ain't I a stinker?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:07 pm

Can't even imagine the fear and bravery of those storming the beach... they weren't trained warriors, just everyday people, you and me on this forum, for many fighting and dying not for their land but for the land of their allies...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Into_the_Jaws_of_Death_23-0455M_edit.jpg/745px-Into_the_Jaws_of_Death_23-0455M_edit.jpg

RIP to the Allied soldiers, civilians, and even the Axis soldiers... such a useless war
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:29 pm

Not to dimish the efforts and sacrifices done in the Normany, but there is one thing that miffs me a bit is that with all the hype about the Normandy landings the other theatres of operation often get ignored.
But this happened already in 1944, as the following song shows:

We are the D-Day Dodgers

(Tune: Lilly Marlen)

There is a song the Eight
Army used to sing,
Marching through the desert,
Marching with a swing
But now they're on a different game.
Although the tune
Is still the same
The words have all been altered,
The words we're singing still:

We're the D-Day Dodgers
Here in Italy,
Drinking all the vino,
Always on a spree.
We didn't land with Eisenhower
And so they think we're just a shower
For we're the D-Day Dodgers,
Out here in Italy.

We're the D-Day dodgers
Here in Italy
Drinking all the vino,
Always on a spree.
Eighth Army scroungers and their tanks,
We go to war in ties like swanks.
We are the D-Day Dodgers,
Way out in Italy

Dearest Lady Astor,
You think you're mighty hot,
Standing on the platform,
Talking tommyrot.
Dear England's sweetheart and her pride
We think your mouth's too bleeding wide -
From all the D-Day Dodgers,
In sunny Italy.

Here's to Lady Astor,
Our pin up girl out here.
She's the dear old lady,
Who sends us such good beer
And when we get our Astor band,
We'll be the proudest in the land,
For we're the D-Day Dodgers,
Out here in Italy.

We landed in Salerno,
A holiday with pay,
The Jerries brought the band out
To greet us on the way.
Showed us the sights and gave us tea,
We all sang songs, the beer was free
To welcome D-Day Dodgers,
To sunny Italy.

Salerno and Cassino
We're takin' in our stride
We didn't go to fight there,
We went there for the ride
Anzio and Sanzio were just names,
We only went to look for dames,
The artful D-Day Dodgers,
Out here in Italy.

'round Lake Trasimano
We'd a lovely time
Bags of wine and women,
They didn't cost a dime.
Base wallahs, amgot and the yanks,
All stayed in Rome,
To dodge the tanks
For we're the D-Day Dodgers,
Out here in Italy.

We stayed a week in Florence,
Polished off the wine,
Then thumbed our way to Rimini
Right through the Gothic Line
Soon to Bologna we will go
When Jerrys gone across the Po
For we're the D-Day Dodgers,
The lads that D-Day dodged.

We hear the boys in France are
Going home on leave,
After six months service
It's a shame they're not relieved
But we can carry on out here
For what may be a few more years
For we're the D-Day Dodgers,
Out here in Italy.

Once we heard a rumour
We were going home
Back to dear old Blighty
Never more to roam
Then someone said in France you'll fight
We answered: "No, we'll just sit tight!"
For we're the D-Day Dodgers,
The lads that D-Day dodged.

When the war is over
And we've done our bit
Climbing over mountains,
Through mud and sleet and ----,
Then we will all be sent out east
Till B.L.A. have been released
For we're the D-Day Dodgers,
Out here in Italy.

Forgotten by the many
Remembered by the few
We'd our armistice when
An armestice was new
One million Germans gave up to us
We finished our war without much fuss
For we're the D-Day Dodgers,
Out here in Italy.

Look around the mountains
In the mud and rain
You'll find scattered crosses,
Some which bear no name.
Heart break and toil and suffering gone
The boys beneath them slumber on,
For they're the D-Day Dodgers,
Who stayed in Italy.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
NoUFO
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Today's main news topics:
Quoting slider (Reply 3):
That's a damned shame. It ought to lead the news every single year.

To be fair: why would the 68th (and somewhat odd) anniversary of the D-Day be among the main news topics? But as a matter of fact there *are* reports - some of them are difficult to miss, such as this:

Hollande commémore l'anniversaire du débarquement sous la pluie
(President) Holande commemorates the anniversary of the landing in pouring rain
Homepage of a major French TV station:
http://lci.tf1.fr/

[Edited 2012-06-06 13:48:58 by srbmod]
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MadameConcorde
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:57 pm

6 June 1944 - The real images.

Films from archives in 3 parts (English and French)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ZcXOI0mog&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9koaDMR6S80&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RyH2s8Jf8w&feature=relmfu

RIP brave men and women!

Glory be to our heros!

  
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fridgmus
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting dl021 (Thread starter):
served with the 82d Airborne

Thank You for your service Brother.

F
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GrahamHill
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting dl021 (Thread starter):
Thank you to you servicemen and women who served and sacrificed, thank you to you family members who sent your loved ones...some who gave all. Thank you.

Indeed, thanks a lot to all who freed my region (I'm a Norman), my country and the whole Europe. Forever grateful! I grew up in the middle of Allies cemeteries, war memorials, war museums, remains of the war (tanks, bunkers, canons, etc.), testimonies of old people, so it is deeply rooted in me.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Here in France the news of the 6 June landing on the beaches of Normandy is barely talked about if not at all

It makes big news every decade, but it's true that in-between it's getting less talked about. However, when you go in Normandy, you will see flags from the USA, Canada, England and France run up all year long. If there is one place that never forgets, it's Normandy.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
PSA53
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:26 pm

June 4th to 6th 1942 and 1944 are pivotal moments is our nation history.

Beginning June 4th and ending on the 6th,70 years ago,the brave pilots of our Pacific fleet stop Imperial Japan's mighty naval forces at Midway.The US sank four of Japan's aircraft carriers which could never be replaced,loss of first line pilots and stopped Japan's advancement eastward.The US broke into Japan's security codes prior to the battle ,repaired the Yorktown, after the carrier was badly hit at Coral Sea, and joining up with carriers Hornet and Enterprise,lied in wait at Midway for Japan forces to arrive, which they did not expect any US carrier to be there, and managed to return the favor of Pearl Harbor of the "surprise attack" and defeated Japan.

D-Day-

My thanks to all allied forces of all flags who gave the ultimate sacrifice I hope i will have the opportunity to visit Normandy in my lifetime to give my personal thanks to all those soldiers who gave their lives for freedom in which we take so much for granted today in which so many enemies today still want to take it from us.

If there was one thing i still would like to know , on the iconic film of the landing,which is played over and over,what was the name of the soldier that died in the background?
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Starbuk7
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:12 pm

Saw this story this morning, really make you think about what these men (boys) went through during that invasion. Glad I never had to endure anything that dramatic in my 20 years in the Navy and am very proud of those hero's.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/06...nt-d-day-invasion/?test=latestnews
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:18 pm

One lesser know part of history:
During the same time there was the Battle of Kohima raging in Burma. It finally stopped and reversed the Japanese advance from Burma into India.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aloges
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:09 pm

Whenever I go to the city centre, I am reminded of the destruction that war brings. That, among many other things, makes me grateful for one thing above all others: that the western allies realised that a peaceful future of my part of the world lay in democracy and self-determination, not puppet regimes and vassalage.

So naturally, my thanks go to all the men and women who helped and help overcome the armies of dictators. It's fantastic that soldiers from the same forces that faced the hell of the D-Day landings went on to become the "Uncle Wiggly Wings" of the post-war era.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
soon7x7
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting dl021 (Thread starter):


Had a long day today and was unaware of the 68th Anniversary of D-Day today. That is until I listened to Michael Savage on the way home from work today. While never having visited Normandy, I have been to "Hitlers Eagles Nest" and "Dachau" Concentration Camp. When one visits the actual locations of the events that are printed in history books the reality hits you that this all occurred a generation ago...not 300 years ago. I would categorize WW ll as a much different war than others we have been accustomed to in the recent 35 years. Soldiers on all sides were brave and the war was based on concrete principals. While today's soldiers are every bit as brave, I must say that today's enemies are cowards. I would also like to highlight the fact that our President, Mr. Obama today had nothing to say regarding this issue. I would expect nothing more or less from him but I must ask myself why he is so busy raising campaign funds for an incumbent president. His first term accomplishments should go far to ensure his second term re-election. Or so History would prove. It pleases me to say Mr. Obama has not one thread of integrity that the young soldiers of WW ll displayed...Shameful!...But he does typify the general climate if you will, in Washington these days.
My Father served on a destroyer that played a roll in sniffing out "U boats" in the Atlantic. He never discussed it. I honors me to be an offspring of one of the finest generations of men that America, its allies and even our adversaries ever saw.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Nothing on 6 June and D Day beaches landings in news titles...


And thats fine...just appreciate that the current language in France and its newspapers still remains French. Blood was lost for that easily overlooked tidbit of information.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
... such a useless war


Actually it was a very usefull and necessary war...more than I can say about the rest with exception, Korea.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 15):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
... such a useless war


Actually it was a very usefull and necessary war...more than I can say about the rest with exception, Korea.

How so? I didn't mean the Allies shouldn't have gotten involved, I meant from start to finish, not much was accomplished
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
soon7x7
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:38 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
not much was accomplished


The photo should help explain...if you don't understand the photo, I suggest you dig into the war and read up on it or even better...View "The Band of Brothers". The war was an incredible turn of global events and woke a sleepy nation, the US to become and industrial giant overnight. Seriously...WWll, probably the greatest story ever told. To say "not much was accomplished"is just flatly the converse of reality. What was accomplished is mind boggling. Unfortunately you probably being younger will not have the opportunity to sit with a WW ll vet and listen his stories of war, what he went through, why he is missing an ear or 1/4 of a jawbone. Soldiers lived in holes in the ground for 90 days during German Winters, breathing in oil vapors from oil pots only to die later in life from the exposures. Pilots that had one bloody eye and a shot out windscreen, flying their way back to friendly territories so they hoped, (without GPS's) so they would live to fight another day. Ships sank from submarine attacks and the ones that survived were eaten by sharks, but many made it as well. Two accomplishments come to mind...Nations were liberated... and the war proved what people can accomplish. While enemy fought enemy I believe WW ll brought out the best in a large part of the global population that post war, went on to be one of the most productive generations the world has ever seen and will see for a while. Currently and sadly, I feel the global population has become spineless, selfish and suffers from a lack of focus. Post WW ll, the population had earned a very poignant lesson and that was that life is fragile, freedom has a price and that generation worked hard to make sure they passed on what they had learned. History does repeat itself, the bad and the good. As Madam Concorde stated above, the press in France made no mention of the 68th anniversary. You should be concerned...
Dachau original concentration camp fence, WW ll
 
NAV20
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:53 am

Thanks for commemorating it, DL021. Looks as if, though, Hollande is 'in the clear,' he's doing the proper thing and visiting the region.

I can still dimly remember (as a very small child) hearing about it on the evening ('six o'clock') BBC news on the radio, and the celebrations of the grown-ups.........  

I do agree with others on here, though, that it was only one episode in a very long war. And at least the forces involved there were properly equipped and supported, and had a good plan. So casualties were realtively light; with the sad exception of Omaha Beach, where US forces suffered very heavily. In fairness to the planners, though, it was just about the only place between the US landings at 'Utah' and the British/Canadian landings further east ('Gold, Juno, and Sword') where there was enough beach to land at all. Had 'Omaha' not been secured it might have been months before the two halves of the invasion could have linked up.

There was no such superiority of numbers and equipment earler in the War. First of all, following the French collapse, the British had to withdraw to Dunkirk, leaving most of their equipment behind; and then somehow hold the Germans off until most of them could be evacuated by the 'little ships' (mostly manned by civilians). Then came the 'Battle of Britain,' which was nothing less than stopping the Germans invading and conquering Britain straight away in 1940. Then came the unsuccessful attempt to defend Greece; the successful defence of the Suez Canal; and a long period spent driving the Axis out of North Africa and all the way north through Italy. Halfway through that period the Japanese joined in, and britain and the Commonwealth had somehow to find enough troops to drive THEM out of Malaya and Burma - not to mention the long struggle of the 'Battle of the Atlantic,' to defeat the U-boats (without which there could never have been any 'D-Day.'

Meanwhile, of course, The United States had had to enter the war 'from a standing start' - it remains, to me, some sort of a miracle that they were able to organise themselves so quickly, and not just defend Pearl Harbor but also carry out that colossally difficult 'island-hopping' campaign to drive the Japanese all the way back.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 11):
June 4th to 6th 1942 and 1944 are pivotal moments is our nation history.

Beginning June 4th and ending on the 6th,70 years ago,the brave pilots of our Pacific fleet stop Imperial Japan's mighty naval forces at Midway.The US sank four of Japan's aircraft carriers which could never be replaced,loss of first line pilots and stopped Japan's advancement eastward.

Couldn't agree more about it being a turning-point, PSA53. Purely by chance (answering a question my son asked) I researched Midway a few days ago; and happened on what was very possibly the first 'live documentary film' of WW2; in which the film-makers were right there under the bombs and bullets along with the fighting forces. It looks very amateurish nowadays, but it was one of the first occasions when the film-makers shared the rsiks endured by the people in the front line. The people who made it 'went on from there,' too; it was directed by an 'up-and-coming' film-maker called 'John Ford' and narrated by some actor guy called 'Henry Fonda'.......  http://archive.org/details/the_battle_of_midway

Another interesting angle is that a lot of the 'theme music' consists of 'America 'Tis Of Thee' - to the tune of the British national anthem! As I understand it, this had been the de facto' US anthem up to about 1931; maybe the film'makers thought that 'The Star-Spangled Banner' was too 'sacrosanct' just to be used as mere film music.......?

I find it significant that the film shows that back then (June 1942) most of the American troops were still wearing British-style 'tin hats' - presumably leftovers from WW1. And the machineguns look pretty 'antique,' too........

So, as you imply, PSA53, as marvellous as operations like the D-Day landings were, IMO a great deal of the credit for winning WW2 has to go to the ill-equipped and inexperienced 'guys who went first.'
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
smittyone
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 17):
Seriously...WWll, probably the greatest story ever told. To say "not much was accomplished"is just flatly the converse of reality. What was accomplished is mind boggling.

I think you're getting wrapped around the axle on this "nothing accomplished" statement. Not to put words in the other poster's mouth but I don't think his point was to diminish the achievements of our veterans, or the very real need to rescue Europe and the Far East from aggression and genocide.

Obviously the Allies' victory was a great and necessary effort...but I think it is also fair to say that WW2 was (for everyone but the US) an unbelievably tragic waste of life and resources for no substantial benefit to the normal people who do the fighting and dying, whose homes get blown up, whose wives get raped, kids starve to death etc.

Ironically the Second World War was the sad legacy of the failure of the previous conflict to "end all wars". I can only imagine what the guys who got churned into mud by artillery at Verdun would say about their children fighting over the same ground twenty or so years later. I don't think they would agree with your assessment that WW2 somehow brought out the best in the global population.
 
windy95
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
I meant from start to finish, not much was accomplished

You are kidding? right?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
Couldn't agree more about it being a turning-point,

Midway was very important but the decision to hold Guadalcanal and the ensuing struggle on the land, sea and in the air was to me the turning point and then Midway put them on the run.

Quoting dl021 (Thread starter):
One of the most important events in the lead up to me coming into this world started early this morning 68 years ago when three gliders full of British soldiers landed at Ouistreham in France

I appreciate the thread and also all the men and woman who fought and died in that War. To my Grandfather who was a machinist making Norden Bomb-sight's, To my Uncle Pete who flew P-38's on D-Day and to my Uncle Bud who was a ball turret gunner on B-17's over Europe. The war caught up to my Uncle Bud later in his life when he sat down in his gunsmith shop and packed a round and took his own life. My Grandfather told later that Bud suffered terribly from his time on the skies over Germany. I terribly miss all of you and the stories you told me a child.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
a great deal of the credit for winning WW2 has to go to the ill-equipped and inexperienced 'guys who went first.'

A good point. North Africa and Guadalcanal play second fiddle in history but they where the proving grounds for the following year's action's
 
slider
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
Meanwhile, of course, The United States had had to enter the war 'from a standing start' - it remains, to me, some sort of a miracle that they were able to organise themselves so quickly,

I appreciate your comment here because I couldn't agree more. I find it nothing short of spectacular and humbling when I ponder on the industrial mobilization of the USA and what was done, how it was done and done so from a standing start as you note.

The study of logistics in WWII, as an early science, is quite fascinating. We had the Lend Lease program of course, and the political hot potatoes that had to be juggled among various constituencies all jockeying for the same finite resources. But how we got there remains, IMHO, one of the most massively impressive feats in all of human history. I say that without exaggeration. It's mind boggling when you consider what we did.

The sad thing is that we couldn't do it today if we had to.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 17):
Seriously...WWll, probably the greatest story ever told.

I really recommend the books by Antony Beevor about Stalingrad and the fall of Berlin. And of course, the one about D-Day. He is a historian with a rare gift for story-telling. I also suggest "No end save victory", a compilation of essays that touch rarely heard topics (like the real possibility of the French beating back the Germans had the command structure worked and had there been reserves in the rear).

Quoting slider (Reply 21):
The sad thing is that we couldn't do it today if we had to.

Yes, I get headaches when I compare World War II to Vietnam, or the more recent conflicts like both Iraq wars.

In comparison to Vietnam, to the Gulf War, to the Iraq war, the "free world" was never in such a dire danger like then. Saddam Hussein having WMD was ballyhoo in comparison to a world dominated by Germany and Japan. What gets me in these examples is that a war can't be won unless there is also a plan for political victory.

Nowadays there is an over-reliance on the military to solve the problems - F-22 and F-35 jets are just the epitome of that. Technology advances much faster than politicians. In WWII, the war was driven by the will to live free, and not being second-class citizens under German-Japanese rule. The Nazis had their own ideology. Both sides had a concept for the day the weapons would be silent.

But nothing was in place when Saddam Hussein was caught. In Vietnam, there was nothing than the blind belief that the U.S. would be able to escalate the war and outpace the communist guerrilla.



Sad.
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
smittyone
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 21):
The sad thing is that we couldn't do it today if we had to.

I'm not so sure. There was an incredible financial incentive behind all that industrialization, and people will go to amazing lengths to make a buck...even in 2012.

Not to mention that as much as people cry about the 'death of US manufacturing', our industrial base and population are both substantially larger than they were in the 1940s - even if you exclude the higher percentage of people and activities today that are basically useless. We also have a greedy and politically powerful military/industrial complex (ie the Lockheed Martins and Northrup Grummans) that didn't exist then...employing far more automated production techniques.

If the Henry Kaisers of the world could pump out Liberty Ships welded together by housewives I'm pretty confident that our current pool of underemployed high school and college grads could ramp up to do whatever was needed. As soft and lackadaisical as people claim them to be, which I think is largely amplified by nostalgia. There were plenty of slackers and idiots in 1940.

The ingredients that would likely be missing from a future WW2-scale mobilization effort would be the relative disregard for workplace safety and environmental impacts, as well as the galvanizing effect of racial and ethnic hatred that could be more easily cultivated before the internet etc. You're just not going to see "JAPS" or "KRAUTS" on the front of newspapers again, which is probably a good thing.

May be irrelevant anyway considering that future warfare won't likely rely on the kind of 'quantity' of everything that we saw in WW2...due to the increased complexity, cost and capability of individual soldiers and weapons systems you're just not going to win using the same strategy that the US and USSR applied in WW2 (mass). On the other hand this suggests to me that it is necessary to be better prepared at the onset of hostilities than we were back then because you can't just quickly retool your auto factory to build state of the art armored vehicles etc.
 
smittyone
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 22):
Yes, I get headaches when I compare World War II to Vietnam, or the more recent conflicts like both Iraq wars.

In comparison to Vietnam, to the Gulf War, to the Iraq war, the "free world" was never in such a dire danger like then. Saddam Hussein having WMD was ballyhoo in comparison to a world dominated by Germany and Japan. What gets me in these examples is that a war can't be won unless there is also a plan for political victory.

Nowadays there is an over-reliance on the military to solve the problems - F-22 and F-35 jets are just the epitome of that. Technology advances much faster than politicians. In WWII, the war was driven by the will to live free, and not being second-class citizens under German-Japanese rule. The Nazis had their own ideology. Both sides had a concept for the day the weapons would be silent.

But nothing was in place when Saddam Hussein was caught. In Vietnam, there was nothing than the blind belief that the U.S. would be able to escalate the war and outpace the communist guerrilla.

I agree with much of this (especially the part about overuse of military force to resolve politicians' shortcomings), but I think the rest of your assessment is a little bit too black and white and too favorable toward WW2.

The Allies' motives and vision for a post-war world were not nearly as clear cut or pure as we prefer to remember them. Nor were their methods! The reason that the objectives of World War 2 seem so much more effective than those for modern wars was that they consisted of simply pursuing unconditional surrender or annhilation. Can you imagine deliberately firebombing civilian populations - killing hundreds of thousands of civilians on purpose - being advanced as a legitimate strategy today? Really from a political standpoint WW2 was easy. Kill as many of the enemy as you can, wherever they are until they give up. Repeat. Figure out what to do with your victory later.

As messed up as the post-Saddam and Vietnam strategies appear to have been in hindsight...what was so great about the planning for the "Post-WW2" world? We effectively traded one bad situation (Germany/Japan genocidal dictatorships) for a bipolar, nuclear-capable standoff between the West and the USSR that arguably threatend human existence more than once. That was good political work?

One could make the case that our misguided strategies for the Iraq and Vietnam wars was just the strategy for WW2 applied where it was no longer appropriate.

With nuclear weapons and a greater level of intellectual diversity the world is more complicated today. All the more reason to abandon the thinking that war solves problems...otherwise we fail to learn the lessons of WW1 & WW2 that these brave guys paid so dearly for.

[Edited 2012-06-07 09:16:55]
 
windy95
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 21):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):Meanwhile, of course, The United States had had to enter the war 'from a standing start' - it remains, to me, some sort of a miracle that they were able to organise themselves so quickly,
I appreciate your comment here because I couldn't agree more. I find it nothing short of spectacular and humbling when I ponder on the industrial mobilization of the USA and what was done, how it was done and done so from a standing start as you note.

Not just from a standing start but toss in the mentality of some of the Military leaders who where still stuck in the peace time small Army and Navy mode. Many including MacArthur had been caught flat footed and fought with a mentality of superiority that put us behind from the beginning. To get from that point to D-Day while fighting another war in the Pacific at the same time is simply amazing. The amount of Military leaders that came out of the pre-war malaise and went on to incredible heights is another great point to make. The Citizen soldiers who also went on to leadership roles and to do amazing feats during that time would be unbelievable if it was not a fact.

The ability of the British Commonwealth to weather the storm and populations like in the Philippines that continued to fight even after occupation are all part's of the story that culminated in feat's like D-Day and the invasions of the Philippines and Okinawa.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:11 pm

Yeah I am being misinterpreted. Of course our veterans and military accomplished great feats, becoming an average nation to a superpower in a few years. What I meant by "nothing accomplished" was the point of starting the war, to conquer Europe, never happened. Europe looked roughly the same before and after the war, just minus millions of people. We can argue if it jumped our economy or not, but my point is, I think the world would have been better had Hitler not kicked off the war (it being unnecessary and not much good was accomplished in that)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:29 pm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/World_War_II_Casualties.svg/800px-World_War_II_Casualties.svg.png

All these millions of people killed, over 60 million, all because of the ambition of a few individuals. They did nothing good for the world and after it was all said and done, territorial gains were mostly the same (minus the USSR which wasn't really good.)

That's what I meant when I said "not much accomplished" and it being a "useless war." The sacrifices of the Allied soldiers in response was completely necessary
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Midway was very important but the decision to hold Guadalcanal and the ensuing struggle on the land, sea and in the air was to me the turning point and then Midway put them on the run.

Have (cordially) to disagree to an extent, windy95. While agreeing that the two operations were very much 'interlinked.'

Point is, though, that Midway came first. A secondary point is that Guadalcanal was not 'held,' it was captured by the Japanese in May 1942.

You're quite right that the Allied commanders settled on a plan based on Guadalcanal, part of the Solomon Islands - re-capturing the place, and using it as a 'springboard' to launch a counter-offensive. To their credit, Australian troops had made a counter-offensive possible, by preventing the Japanese from capturing Port Moresby in New Guinea - thus forcing the Japanese hurriedly to start building port facilities and an airfield on Guadalcanal instead. So the senior 'Allies' - almost entirely the US generals/admirals in those days - naturally 'targeted' Guadalcanal as the primary 'target' for a counter-offensive.

Any such plan required a 'firm base.' So the US commanders began a build-up of bases in Australia and New Zealand; which meant shipping lots of troops and equipment there. The Japanese attempted to intervene - resulting in the naval Battle of the Coral Sea, which was more or less a draw - both sides had ships (including a couple of carriers each) damaged, but neither side achieved anything that could be called a decisive victory.

The US commanders sought to continue their 'build-up' in Australia and New Zealand. But the Japanese developed a counter-offensive based on capturing Midway. If you look at (and enlarge) the map halfway down this site, you'll see what they had in mind; a base on Midway would have enabled them to 'interdict' - i.e. prevent - virtually all sea traffic between Pearl Harbor and Australia/New Zealand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_Campaign

In the event, the guys on Midway held out. More than that, their recon. aircraft reported the Japanese build-up - including the all-important presence of carriers. So the US Navy 'went into overdrive,' and aircraft from their carriers succeeded in sinking all four of the Japanese carriers. On top of two carriers severely damaged in the Coral Sea battle, that left the Japanese with no operating carriers at all..........which was the end of any further offensive operations on their part........

Viewing that video I posted earlier, the people I really take my hat off to are the guys who flew those Catalinas shown in the video, who spotted the Jap carriers. Beautiful aeroplanes as they may be, as far as I know they could only manage about 200 knots with a following wind, and they only carried three machine-guns for defence. But, to put it simply, they found the Japanese carriers, they reported them, and then they tried their damnedest to get home before the Zeros caught them........

Those Catalina reconnaissance crews, by finding the Japanese carriers, probably did more than most servicemen to make sure that the Allies finished WW2 on the winning side. According to the video, some of them managed to survive until they were rescued and flown back to Midway. But I'll bet anyone even money that most of them DIDN'T make it........

That's war, I guess.......

As a tailpiece, I'd better record that the Japanese began building an airfield on Guadalcanal. US forces captured it before they finished, completed construction, and named it (as most people probably know) 'Henderson Field.'

The 'Henderson' in question was in fact Major Loftus Henderson, USMC - a squadron commander who was killed in action flying against the Japanese at Midway..........

Pretty convincing proof, to my mind, that Midway made Guadalcanal possible. Not the other way round......

[Edited 2012-06-07 11:00:07]
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Not to dimish the efforts and sacrifices done in the Normany, but there is one thing that miffs me a bit is that with all the hype about the Normandy landings the other theatres of operation often get ignored.
But this happened already in 1944, as the following song shows:

We are the D-Day Dodgers

Hell of a lot of sing composition, just because a female MP, Astor was her surname I think, made a silly, ill-informed remark, that riled the troops fight a very bitter and difficult campaign in Italy.
I think she is also the one who said to Churchill, If you were my husband, I'd poison you!
Winne came right back with, If you were my wife, I'd take it!
 
slider
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Not just from a standing start but toss in the mentality of some of the Military leaders who where still stuck in the peace time small Army and Navy mode.

Good point. I harken back to Patton who, in the time between wars, tried to champion armored tanks and the move from cavalry. Neither the peacetime military nor the funding were there to adopt such changes that Patton so vigorously championed.
 
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 30):
Good point. I harken back to Patton who, in the time between wars, tried to champion armored tanks and the move from cavalry. Neither the peacetime military nor the funding were there to adopt such changes that Patton so vigorously championed.

Strange – because the same drama happened during WW I. Only after diverting various assets from their intended use, the tide could be turned. The cavalry was used for recon, the tank was thought to replace the horse and fight alone, and the aircraft, thought to be used to fight and bomb, proved most useful for reconnaissance again. And then all the changes in command structures. WW I was won by low-level officers, not by the big strategists.

And that the interwar years weren't used to change doctrines is a more interesting question because of these lessons in 1917 and 1918.

I've read the Farago biography about Patton and I also harken back to him. An unconventional leader who, in exercises, made somewhat of a habit to detain the opposing forces' HQ during the first one or two days...
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 31):
And that the interwar years weren't used to change doctrines is a more interesting question because of these lessons in 1917 and 1918.

Indeed...your points are good. I also think about Billy Mitchell and his battle for air power, going so far as to be court-martialed for it.

He too was an iconoclast, similar to Patton, MacArthur and other rather strong-headed tacticians who were in their own right brilliant minds full of strategy, foresight and the ability to produce results.

But beyond merely just the last century of American or even Western warfare, there is a tendency to not always innovate doctrines, means or tools of war. War itself is often the very crucible through which innovation, invention and applications of strategy come to fruition.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 31):
I've read the Farago biography about Patton and I also harken back to him.

I've read quite a bit of scholarship on Patton--one of the most fascinating characters ever and, IMHO, one of the greatest Americans of all time. A true Renaissance man who understood war, politics, human nature, psychology, and things far beyond what a general officer might typically master. Moreover, he was a man who had quite visible flaws who acknowledged them himself...the mark of a true leader and something lacking today.

To quote Patton, God how I hate the 21st Century.
 
windy95
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 28):
Point is, though, that Midway came first.

Not really. The battle of the Solomons really started in early May when the Imperial Japanese forces decided to invade and occupy Port Moresby in New Guinea , Guadalcanal and Tulagi in the southeastern Solomon Islands. The high command had already decided that this was where we would start in the campaign to protect Australia and put a stop the Japanese. That is why the fleet was where it was at and the Battle of the Corla Sea came from this strategy. The ensuing loss of the Shokaku and the Zuikaku and their air group's was a significant break for the American's at Midway. Also the Big "E" was able to get back to Pearl and back to sea with the repair crew's on board to help beat the Japanese at Midway.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 28):
Pretty convincing proof, to my mind, that Midway made Guadalcanal possible

Not to me but we are still all entitled to our opinion's.   
 
ronglimeng
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:13 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
the hype about the Normandy landings the other theatres of operation often get ignored

I was watching "Hockey Night in Canada (?)" last night with my Dad. Don Cherry came on after the 1st period and did his little side-piece about D-Day. My Dad, who was a D-Day Dodger in sunny Italy, used the opportunity to make a trip to the bathroom, saying "Don should stick to hockey !"
 
windy95
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:07 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 34):
My Dad, who was a D-Day Dodger in sunny Italy, used the opportunity to make a trip to the bathroom, saying "Don should stick to hockey !"

My grandfather always felt guilty also. He was already in his late twenties and had a critical skill as a machinist making the Norden Bombsights he was flagged not to draft. He always felt guilty but since he has been gone for 20 years now I cannot tell him that it was okay. I did not really understand that when I was yonger. He did his part that his country asked him to do.
 
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):
Also the Big "E" was able to get back to Pearl and back to sea with the repair crew's on board to help beat the Japanese at Midway.

Not trying to be a tool, but are you talking about YORKTOWN here? IIRC the yard at Pearl Harbor got her back underway in 3 days despite some pretty serious bomb damage from the Coral Sea battle...
 
windy95
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 36):
Not trying to be a tool, but are you talking about YORKTOWN here? IIRC the yard at Pearl Harbor got her back underway in 3 days despite some pretty serious bomb damage from the Coral Sea battle...

You are correct. I am the tool. Lexington was lost and the Yorktown was damaged. I believe I mixed it with the covering of the Invasion of Guadalcanal and the Battle of the Eastern Solomons and then Santa Cruz.
 
NAV20
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):
The battle of the Solomons really started in early May when the Imperial Japanese forces decided to invade and occupy Port Moresby in New Guinea

Sorry, windy95, have to question that? Firstly, the Japanese didn't land on New Guinea until much later; actually on 22nd. July 1942? Secondly, they never managed to 'occupy' Port Moresby; they were held, and eventually driven back, by the Australian Army.

I've always felt that one of the reasons why the Axis lost the war was basically poor (you could say 'one-eyed') planning. They quite often under-estimated their opponents, expected to win easily, and didn't 'build in' contingency plans for unexpectedly-stiff resistance. The Battle of Britain, Malta, Pearl Harbor, even the invasion of Russia, were all examples of that.

In the case of New Guinea, they'll have known that virtually all Australia's experienced troops were in North Africa fighting Rommel. And also that Montgomery (who was locked in a 'death struggle' with the Afrika Korps at the time, which didn't end until El Alamein in October of that year) was refusing to release the two Australian divisions that formed part of his Eighth Army so they could come home and fight the Japanese. So the only Australian 'soldiers' available to defend New Guinea were the so-called 'militia battalions' - almost literally 'Saturday Night Soldiers,' who'd signed on for home defence duties only. They'll certainly have felt that they could just about 'walk through' those guys.

The thing the Japanese didn't know - as it turned out, disastrously - was the basic geography of New Guinea. The map showed (probably still does show) some sort of road crossing New Guinea from north to south, and leading to Port Moresby. So they landed (unopposed) on the north coast of New Guinea, and set out along that 'road.'

Trouble was, it wasn't a road at all. It was known locally as the 'Kokoda Track,' and that's all it was - a single-file track through thick jungle, winding up over the Owen Stanley Mountains, which are over 7,000 feet high. And, at the top, they met the 'hostilities only' Aussies; and eventually got themselves massacred and driven back........

There's a pretty good Australian Army TV thing here (see below) that tells the whole story, if you have the time to watch it. The producers were careful to interview a good range of people from both sides. As you'll have gathered, I tend to work on 'impressions' quite a lot - and one of the things that struck me particularly was one Aussie veteran in the film (second part) who says that the first Japanese they saw advancing towards them (along a single-file jungle track thousands of feet up in the mountains) were actually wheeling bicycles......

Just about 'screams' bad planning......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oScT3WhCk8w
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 38):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):
The battle of the Solomons really started in early May when the Imperial Japanese forces decided to invade and occupy Port Moresby in New Guinea

Sorry, windy95, have to question that? Firstly, the Japanese didn't land on New Guinea until much later; actually on 22nd. July 1942? Secondly, they never managed to 'occupy' Port Moresby; they were held, and eventually driven back, by the Australian Army.

I've always felt that one of the reasons why the Axis lost the war was basically poor (you could say 'one-eyed') planning. They quite often under-estimated their opponents, expected to win easily, and didn't 'build in' contingency plans for unexpectedly-stiff resistance. The Battle of Britain, Malta, Pearl Harbor, even the invasion of Russia, were all examples of that.

In the case of New Guinea, they'll have known that virtually all Australia's experienced troops were in North Africa fighting Rommel. And also that Montgomery (who was locked in a 'death struggle' with the Afrika Korps at the time, which didn't end until El Alamein in October of that year) was refusing to release the two Australian divisions that formed part of his Eighth Army so they could come home and fight the Japanese. So the only Australian 'soldiers' available to defend New Guinea were the so-called 'militia battalions' - almost literally 'Saturday Night Soldiers,' who'd signed on for home defence duties only. They'll certainly have felt that they could just about 'walk through' those guys.

The thing the Japanese didn't know - as it turned out, disastrously - was the basic geography of New Guinea. The map showed (probably still does show) some sort of road crossing New Guinea from north to south, and leading to Port Moresby. So they landed (unopposed) on the north coast of New Guinea, and set out along that 'road.'

Trouble was, it wasn't a road at all. It was known locally as the 'Kokoda Track,' and that's all it was - a single-file track through thick jungle, winding up over the Owen Stanley Mountains, which are over 7,000 feet high. And, at the top, they met the 'hostilities only' Aussies; and eventually got themselves massacred and driven back........

There's a pretty good Australian Army TV thing here (see below) that tells the whole story, if you have the time to watch it. The producers were careful to interview a good range of people from both sides. As you'll have gathered, I tend to work on 'impressions' quite a lot - and one of the things that struck me particularly was one Aussie veteran in the film (second part) who says that the first Japanese they saw advancing towards them (along a single-file jungle track thousands of feet up in the mountains) were actually wheeling bicycles......

Just about 'screams' bad planning......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oScT3WhCk8w

Don´t blame our American posters about this. McArthur was, if anything, a genius in using the press to further his own goals. As the Allied army commander in the Pacific area, he would exploit any success as his own, get rid of potential rivals and blame subordinates for every failure. He also carried out a strict control of the media, to make sure that only new favouring him would be published in the US.
So an Australian victory, due to him, was an "American" one, while a failure would be an Australian one.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
greasespot
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:58 pm

Interesting note. My Canadian Grandfather landed on Juno beach...My German grandfather defended Juno Beach.

So in effect they shot at each other.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
slider
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 40):
Interesting note. My Canadian Grandfather landed on Juno beach...My German grandfather defended Juno Beach.

So in effect they shot at each other.

Holy cow....you know, I've heard lots of stories about this sort of thing, where many German families in the States had relatives fighting for the motherland while their American family members all enlisted.

But going mono a mono on Juno beach theoretically is just wild.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 40):
Interesting note. My Canadian Grandfather landed on Juno beach...My German grandfather defended Juno Beach.

So in effect they shot at each other.

GS

It is quite possible that Ronglimeng´s father had faced my maternal grandfather in Italy. My grandfather was a Luftwaffe sergeant pilot based in Northern Africa and Sicily until the Luftwaffe in Italy ran out of fuel in 1943. Then he was issued a paratrooper´s smock and a rifle and told that from now on he was a "Fallschirmjäger". He was proud until he died that, together with his lieutenant, they managed to get their platoon through the fighting without losing a single man, until they finally surrendered to the British army in Northern Italy.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ronglimeng
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42):
It is quite possible that Ronglimeng´s father had faced my maternal grandfather in Italy

Certainly, stranger things have happened. I am named for two of my dad's brothers. One always used to accuse the other of bombing him in Normandy in the summer of '44. An example of friendly...errr..."family fire"
 
slider
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42):
It is quite possible that Ronglimeng´s father had faced my maternal grandfather in Italy. My grandfather was a Luftwaffe sergeant pilot based in Northern Africa and Sicily until the Luftwaffe in Italy ran out of fuel in 1943. Then he was issued a paratrooper´s smock and a rifle and told that from now on he was a "Fallschirmjäger". He was proud until he died that, together with his lieutenant, they managed to get their platoon through the fighting without losing a single man, until they finally surrendered to the British army in Northern Italy.

Wow!! Holy cow, what a very amazing story. It's great that you know the stories....
 
flyingturtle
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:38 pm

Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
greasespot
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:35 pm

I look at the videos and have to work to remember that these men are in their very late teens to mid 20's in age. They look so different than youth I see on the street now a days.

It was a generation that had to grow up immediately upon adult hood.

I wonder what would happen if the world was ever forced into another world war. Would people sign up to go?

Sadly, I think that there is a large contingent of youth in this country that would never fight for anything except for their own selfish needs.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 46):
I look at the videos and have to work to remember that these men are in their very late teens to mid 20's in age. They look so different than youth I see on the street now a days.

It was a generation that had to grow up immediately upon adult hood.

When I was a little boy back in the early 1970s, I remember having seen a lot of (to me very old) men with missing limbs. Today I realise that they were just about as old as I´m now (late forties, early fifties) and were all invalid war veterans.

Later, in the 1980s, my history teacher in highschool was blind. He told us that he was drafted into the "Volkssturm" (last ditch home defence units made up from old men and boys) as a 14 year old boy in the spring of 1945 and given a Panzerfaust (portable, shoulder launched anti-tank recoilless gun) to take on the Red Army with his friends. At this time the red Army was already on the outskirts of Berlin.He told us that the last thing he ever saw was the muzzle flash from a T-34 tank coming around a street corner. The shell exloded nearby and one piece of shrapnell went in through one of his temles and out the other and severed both optical nerves to his eyes. since he was a Volkssturm member, he was registered as the youngest war blind soldier in Germany. After recovering from hospital he still finished highschool and studied history at university. He was one of my best teachers.
Needless to say that, after he got wounded he lost the any sympathy for Nazism, even though he was brainwashed previously in the Hitlerjugend.

Jan

[Edited 2012-06-08 14:12:28]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 46):
I wonder what would happen if the world was ever forced into another world war. Would people sign up to go?

Sadly, I think that there is a large contingent of youth in this country that would never fight for anything except for their own selfish needs.

I'm sure they would. It would take another horrific war like this one, versus the types of wars we have now, but I'm confident they would
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: D-Day: 6 June 1944

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 46):
Sadly, I think that there is a large contingent of youth in this country that would never fight for anything except for their own selfish needs.

I think, under a big enough threat, today´s youth would get their act together and do whatever is necessary. WW2 was for the largest part fought by conscripts and volunteers from the civilian world (e.g. almost all Canadian soldiers were volunteers).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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