mcogator
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TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:19 pm

Interesting new tactic by the security at TLV. Seems like they want to make it as difficult as possible for an Arab American to visit.

Original Article

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...te-email-accounts.premium-1.434509

No registration required article

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-06/D9V70V280.htm


Fair use excerpt from Haaretz:


"The first part of the interrogation began with questions like: Do you feel more Arab or more American?" (to which the interrogator supplied her own answer:"Surely you must feel a little more Arab.") "Will you go to Al-Aqsa?" and "Why are you coming now for the third time? You can go to Venezuela, to Mexico, to Canada. It is much closer to New York, and much less expensive!"

Then, according to Doughman, her interrogator said, "Okay, we are going to do something very interesting now!" As Doughman describes it, the harsh stare on the security woman's face gave way to a slight smirk. She typed www.gmail.com on her computer, turned the keyboard torward Doughman and demanded that she log in to her personal account.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
magyar
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:49 pm

What can I say? Another day in "the only democracy of the ME".
 
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Tugger
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:31 pm

Pretty dumb if you ask me. At least if they are trying to actually catch anyone dangerous at the airport. Of course all they are really doing is fishing for information on other people (those is the emails and friends on FB) so they can further investigate those names.

And if you are wondering why I say it is dumb is they are actually trying to catch someone dangerous there, it is because anyone who is truly dangerous has hidden email accounts, alternates that they don't use or keep records of or save otherwise.

Tugg
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mcogator
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 2):
And if you are wondering why I say it is dumb is they are actually trying to catch someone dangerous there, it is because anyone who is truly dangerous has hidden email accounts, alternates that they don't use or keep records of or save otherwise.

It makes sense if these people were on some sort of a terrorist watch list, but they're not. They're on a Israeli political activist watch list, which is absolutely crazy to deny them entry, when they most likely do not pose a security threat. The Israeli's are just making it as hard as possible for Arab's to visit their native country, so in turn they will not visit anymore. This of course is just my opinion. Hopefully they won't stop Ron Paul supporters from visiting there in the future.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
raffik
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:09 pm

Terrible. It makes me wonder why anyone would endure these security measures in order to travel to Israel.
It sounds like thoroughly dreadful experience.
- Alec
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 2):
And if you are wondering why I say it is dumb is they are actually trying to catch someone dangerous there, it is because anyone who is truly dangerous has hidden email accounts, alternates that they don't use or keep records of or save otherwise.

Agree.   Sounds very low level.
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LOWS
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:56 pm

This is insanity. If that had happened to me, I would have asked to be put on the next flight back.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 3):
Hopefully they won't stop Ron Paul supporters from visiting there in the future.

Dear God, what does Ron Paul have to even remotely do with this situation?
 
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cpd
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:14 pm

The devils advocate in me would say that it is their country, they are free to do that.

Of course, I have no intention to visit Israel since nothing about the country even remotely interests me, and a good friend of mine also got this style of rude and aggressive interrogation as well, but many years ago.

Israel with these measures will succeed in deterring the majority of people from visiting their country. They probably won't stop terrorism or the like, but the ordinary traveler will just think, I don't have to go through that - and will take their money elsewhere, perhaps Dubai or Abu Dhabi.
 
LAXintl
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:15 pm

Hey if employers require prospective new employees to turn over passwords to things like Facebook, why should a border control agency not be able to do it?

Anyhow I believe everyone accepts they can search through your bags, papers, laptop, phones already at a border control, so why not look at material of yours stored on a cloud server?
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zkojq
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:33 pm

Crazy, I guess this is another reason not to visit.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Hey if employers require prospective new employees to turn over passwords to things like Facebook, why should a border control agency not be able to do it?

Ummm... because it is unethical and any actual security benefits it will provide seem rather dubious.
First to fly the 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE (2014-10-09, NZ103)
 
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cpd
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):

Maybe in the USA, but elsewhere that doesn't happen and any employer trying to do that is putting themselves on a unwritten blacklist that job seekers tend to have, especially in certain fields where most of the people tend to know each other very well. Word about 'bad' employers or recruiters gets around fast.

In my view, Israel is setting themselves up for a whole world of problems with this. And it doesn't really achieve anything useful other than alienating people who would otherwise bring money to the country.

Knowing what others have experienced means I will avoid travel to Israel or through it if possible. It's just not safe. And incidents like the following also don't engender confidence in the country:

http://m.smh.com.au/opinion/politics...inging-betrayal-20100302-pg9e.html

The average, ordinary traveler who is already wary about security is going to be scared off by interrogations like what is mentioned before and incidents like what was mentioned by SMH. But it won't deter the people Israel really should be deterring.

[Edited 2012-06-06 14:53:26]
 
fr8mech
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:57 pm

They have the right to control access to their country. Is what they're doing right? Not by my standards, but then again, I don't have just about every nation around me arrayed against me, politically & physically.

Is it effective? The looking at the email part is probably not very effective. The reaction that the security folks do get may provide some insight...and then again, it might not.

Their country, their rules, their loss of tourism (if they're actually losing tourism).

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
Maybe in the USA, but elsewhere that doesn't happen and any employer trying to do that is putting themselves on a unwritten blacklist that job seekers tend to have, especially in certain fields where most of the people tend to know each other very well. Word about 'bad' employers or recruiters gets around fast.


That's a very interesting notion. I understand that there are bad employers and good employers. I understand that in a good economy, folks would tend to flock to the good employers (absent high compensation considerations), but in a bad economy, you go where the work is.

[Edited 2012-06-06 15:02:35]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Cadet985
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
Knowing what others have experienced means I will avoid travel to Israel or through it if possible. It's just not safe. And incidents like the following also don't engender confidence in the country:

Not trying to start a fight here, but you know what a few have experienced. How about all the people who go to Israel in a daily basis and have no issues? I've been there four times, and am probably going again later this year...always felt safe, never had any issues with security, of everyone I know who has been there, I know of nobody who has (and a LOT of people I know have been to Israel).

Marc
 
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cpd
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 12):
Not trying to start a fight here

Well you have your views, I have mine - they diverge wildly, so I'll refrain from any further comments to avoid it escalating.  Smile
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):

That's a very interesting notion.

Yeah, it is interesting. But it probably occurs because the economy here isn't so bad and in certain fields of employment, the candidates all seem to be members of professional associations (not unions as such) and they all network a hell of a lot. So word of bad experiences (unrelated to pay) gets around very quickly. Employers just discover that they don't get many replies to their job adverts, or they just don't find suitable candidates responding.

That's the power that young professionals have now - they know there is demand out their for their skills, so they are able to do this.

[Edited 2012-06-06 16:34:53]

[Edited 2012-06-06 16:35:56]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
The average, ordinary traveler who is already wary about security is going to be scared off by interrogations like what is mentioned before and incidents like what was mentioned by SMH. But it won't deter the people Israel really should be deterring.

I think it's just hype. I've been to a lot of countries and actually, Israel had some of the quickest and easiest security I've seen. Then again, I don't think I'm the kind of person they'd profile for
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ImperialEagle
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:13 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
I think it's just hype. I've been to a lot of countries and actually, Israel had some of the quickest and easiest security I've seen.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Their country, their rules

  

Yeah, hyperbole.
BTW can you imagine what security is like at Damascus about now.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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DocLightning
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
I think it's just hype. I've been to a lot of countries and actually, Israel had some of the quickest and easiest security I've seen.

You're a white kid with a non-descript name from America. Of course you breezed through. If your name was Omar Saleh, I guarantee it wouldn't have been so easy.

The bit that bothers me is that, from the description, the behavior of the border agent was sadistic, and if not that, then certainly unprofessional.
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ltbewr
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:37 am

The basic intent by Israel is to intimidate and keep out anyone that does not agree with their political and territorial policies as well as keep out anyone who might encourage wars, terror acts or any act of defense in the occupied territories. Of course, these attempts will be futile, they can be easily gone around, it will mean more 'Arabs' traveling through Jordan to get to the territories. You can't halt all e-mails or text messages, you can use coded messages, people can be taught to give the right answers and get past the tough ones. Don't forget not all Arabs are Muslims, small percentages are Christians as well as Jewish and could get by these extreme methods.
 
mcogator
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 6):

Dear God, what does Ron Paul have to even remotely do with this situation?

Ron Paul was known as being Anti-Israel prior to his recent election run, just do a Youtube search. Israel takes the extra step, so why stop at middle aged Arab-American women?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 17):
Don't forget not all Arabs are Muslims, small percentages are Christians as well as Jewish and could get by these extreme methods.

But it's not just the Muslims who are being pulled aside by the Israeli's. The Christian Palestinians are treated poorly as well by the Israeli's and do have trouble visiting, or returning home.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features...y-claiming-we-are-welcome-1.420718
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
TheCommodore
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting mcogator (Thread starter):
Seems like they want to make it as difficult as possible for an Arab American to visit.

They should learn not to bite the hand that feeds them.

Quoting raffik (Reply 4):
Terrible. It makes me wonder why anyone would endure these security measures in order to travel to Israel.
It sounds like thoroughly dreadful experience.

That's an understatement

Quoting cpd (Reply 7):
and a good friend of mine also got this style of rude and aggressive interrogation as well

Yes, this is what I have heard from people who have traveled there too, they wont do it again as they were made to feel guilty for NO reason.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
so why not look at material of yours stored on a cloud server?

For the one simple reason, its private !

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
The average, ordinary traveler who is already wary about security is going to be scared off by interrogations like what is mentioned before and incidents like what was mentioned by SMH. But it won't deter the people Israel really should be deterring.

   Absolutely

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
I don't have just about every nation around me arrayed against me, politically & physically.

This will not help change that will it ?

Buy them a shovel, because the hole they are digging is going to be very deep with this.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 12):
I've been there four times, and am probably going again later this year...always felt safe, never had any issues with security, of everyone I know who has been there, I know of nobody who has (and a LOT of people I know have been to Israel).

Well I will take a guess at why you had no problems, and its because you are probably Jewish, and have family there. ?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
Yeah, hyperbole.

Really ? With the reputation that Israeli security has, I wouldn't call it Hyperbole at all. Fact, is a word that comes to mind.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
BTW can you imagine what security is like at Damascus about now.

Whats that got to do with the price of fish ?

Quoting mcogator (Reply 18):
The Christian Palestinians are treated poorly as well by the Israeli's and do have trouble visiting, or returning home.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features...20718

And until Israel is pulled into line by the rest of the world, then unfortunately, this will continue to happen.  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
sfbdude
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:02 am

I went twice during high school back in 99/2000. Never went back since. Most of my family live there and as much as I'd love to visit them and the country in general, it just isn't worth the vacation time or money imo. The airport experience and the actual trip itself was definitely nothing I'd want to go through again. There is nothing hyped up about that either.
 
Cadet985
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:20 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
Well I will take a guess at why you had no problems, and its because you are probably Jewish, and have family there. ?

Yes, I happen to be Jewish. It does not say so on my passport, and I do not advertise my religion, so how would they know whether I'm Jewish, Christian, etc.? In fact, the only place I even wear some religious garb is at the Western Wall.

No, I have no family there...just a friend who is like a brother to me.

Marc
 
zrs70
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 7):
They probably won't stop terrorism or the like

Well, Israeli security has a proven record of being very effective in stopping terrorism. Doesn't mean that terrorism doesn't happen. But security measures have done incredibly at making things much safer.

I feel safer in Israel than I do anywhere else in the world.

And the TSA could learn something from Israeli security. In Israel, they are trained to search for terrorists. In the US, they are trained to look for weapons.
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TheCommodore
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 21):
Yes, I happen to be Jewish. It does not say so on my passport, and I do not advertise my religion, so how would they know whether I'm Jewish, Christian, etc.? In fact, the only place I even wear some religious garb is at the Western Wall.

Having never been to Israel, I'm not exactly sure of the entry requirements are, but do you have to declare your religion on entry documents or when applying for a visa ?

If so, then there's your answer.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
Well, Israeli security has a proven record of being very effective in stopping terrorism. Doesn't mean that terrorism doesn't happen.

Um, isn't that a contradiction, I mean, it either has stopped terrorism or it hasn't ?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
I feel safer in Israel than I do anywhere else in the world.

Ever lived in Australia ?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
And the TSA could learn something from Israeli security. In Israel, they are trained to search for terrorists. In the US, they are trained to look for weapons.

I doubt that very much.
But I would imagine that the American constitution and peoples "civil" rights/liberty's, would play havoc with that !

[Edited 2012-06-06 23:07:01]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
StarAC17
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:21 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Hey if employers require prospective new employees to turn over passwords to things like Facebook, why should a border control agency not be able to do it?

If one did that to me, I would ask why to try and get a reason. If I thought the reason was just I would show them the profile inside and out with them present. If they gave me no reason I would leave, but I am not desperate.

They can fish for my profile all they like but they aren't getting the password, most people wouldn't give the password to their partners if requested.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 18):
Ron Paul was known as being Anti-Israel prior to his recent election run, just do a Youtube search. Israel takes the extra step, so why stop at middle aged Arab-American women?

He isn't anti-Israel he just wants the US to stop bankrolling them.

Quoting raffik (Reply 4):
Terrible. It makes me wonder why anyone would endure these security measures in order to travel to Israel.
It sounds like thoroughly dreadful experience.

It supposed to be the best and their methods are not that intrusive and they look at your behaviour more so that what is in your shoes.

If this happened to me I would show them because they can gladly go through 7000 e-mails all they want.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
That's a very interesting notion. I understand that there are bad employers and good employers. I understand that in a good economy, folks would tend to flock to the good employers (absent high compensation considerations), but in a bad economy, you go where the work is.

Yeah but do a lot of companies really need to look at your facebook profile, much less get your password to look at the apps you have and your personal messages that could be dirty talk with your partner.

Why is that relevant.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Having never having been to Israel, I'm not exactly sure of the entry requirements are, but do you have to declare your religion on entry documents or when applying for a visa ?

As an Aussie I don't think you need a visa at all.
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mad99
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:29 am

Security at tlv is more thorough than most airports but only when leaving! Arrival is no different to any other airport (unless you fly on EL-AL, they screen you before you get on the plane).

I have entry stamps from non- friendly Arab countries and i answer 'yes' to more then one security question, so i get checked out every single time.

I've never been asked to open my pc but once they said i had to check in my pc or leave it in Israel. They packed it in a box and checked it in for me.

If you lie and they catch you the red flag goes up and you will have problems, If the woman in the link did or said something that they wanted to verify and she refused so they sent her home.
 
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falstaff
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Hey if employers require prospective new employees to turn over passwords to things like Facebook

That is illegal in Michigan now.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
fr8mech
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
Yes, this is what I have heard from people who have traveled there too, they wont do it again as they were made to feel guilty for NO reason.


The only person that can make you 'feel guilty' is yourself. No amount of questioning should make you feel guilty. Remember, the questioning itself, more than the questions, are designed to illicit a reaction for the passenger. It is the reaction that is screened.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
This will not help change that will it ?

Buy them a shovel, because the hole they are digging is going to be very deep with this.


And, that is up to them, isn't it? Is tourism up or down in Israel?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
But I would imagine that the American constitution and peoples "civil" rights/liberty's, would play havoc with that !


Interesting. As far as I know, there is no constitutional right to travel by air. Even though it is the TSA (government) that would institute such a rule, the citizen still has other options (drive, rail, sail, walk) to his destination. So, the additional screening would constitute an inconvenience and not a restriction. Question is, would the inconvenience be reasonable? Again, interesting.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
Yeah but do a lot of companies really need to look at your facebook profile, much less get your password to look at the apps you have and your personal messages that could be dirty talk with your partner.


Didn't say I thought it was right. I can bluster all I want against it right now, but if I'm unemployed, and have been for a while...who is to say whether I would pony up the information?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:09 pm

A note to the security personnel at TLV:

- If I don't type the password and don't let you access my private mail, you think I could be a terrorist, but in reality, I'm an educated citizen from a civilized country.

- If I willingly let you snuff through my private mail, I have nothing to hide. I will prepare my entry into your country by any means possible, i.e. inventing a fake itinerary and purging incriminatory information from Facebook and my e-mail account. I may very well be a terrorist.

Thank you for your attention.
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
EL-AL
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:11 pm

Yesterday alone 140 people killed in Syria, most of them women and children.

The Syrian border is 93 km (58 mi) from TLV airport.

No doubt you guys focus on the true acts of atrocity in the middle east.
every day is a good day to fly
 
mcogator
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 21):
Yes, I happen to be Jewish. It does not say so on my passport, and I do not advertise my religion, so how would they know whether I'm Jewish, Christian, etc.? In fact, the only place I even wear some religious garb is at the Western Wall.

The security in Israel goes directly by your looks and name first.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 25):
If you lie and they catch you the red flag goes up and you will have problems, If the woman in the link did or said something that they wanted to verify and she refused so they sent her home.

She wasn't the only one who was sent back. It says there are three other known cases. I'm sure there are plenty more. Just look at all the people who were scheduled to "fly in" and were denied entry because they were Palestinian sympathizers/activists.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
BTW can you imagine what security is like at Damascus about now.

Bashar Assad is Israel's best friend now. Israel can just deflect everything towards him. It's odd how much media play time it's receiving compared to Israel's transgressions in the past.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Their country, their rules, their loss of tourism (if they're actually losing tourism).

But it's not only their country.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
He isn't anti-Israel he just wants the US to stop bankrolling them.

Of course he isn't anti-Israel, it's just what he is portrayed as in Israel. Hence the "known" as.

Israel creates PAC to attack Ron Pal

http://youtu.be/R6wzm7IQmg0
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
mcogator
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 29):
Yesterday alone 140 people killed in Syria, most of them women and children.

The Syrian border is 93 km (58 mi) from TLV airport.

No doubt you guys focus on the true acts of atrocity in the middle east.

Yes, deflection. Lets forget about the 64 years of atrocities being committed in Israel. Bashar Assad might win an election in Israel right now.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
Cadet985
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Having never been to Israel, I'm not exactly sure of the entry requirements are, but do you have to declare your religion on entry documents or when applying for a visa ?

I'm not sure about the entry requirements from Australia, but for me (or any other American...not sure about other countries) to go there, you buy a ticket, get on a plane, and get a free 3 month tourist visa when you arrive at TLV.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
I feel safer in Israel than I do anywhere else in the world.

And the TSA could learn something from Israeli security. In Israel, they are trained to search for terrorists. In the US, they are trained to look for weapons.

And security on the Israeli side is much faster. I've never spent more then ten minutes waiting in line...I don't have to take my shoes off, and the people working security actually care about their jobs, unlike the joke that is the TSA. And when I talk about waiting in line, I've been at TLV when there were 3 or 4 fully loaded 747's or 777's leaving within an hour of eachother, so it's not like I was at the airport at a dead time.

Marc
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:29 pm

I read the article/blog the woman wrote while browsing the other day and it kind of shocked me. I have always wanted to visit Israel but this really makes me think twice about it. I am a white kid with and Irish name so I doubt I would have a problem but that doesn't matter to me. It is so wrong to profile people by how they look. It doesn't make them a terrorist. Whether she had something questionable in her past I have no idea. It doesn't make it right though. I understand security is a big deal in Israel but that is just wrong on so many levels.
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fr8mech
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 30):
But it's not only their country.

That's another argument. Their name is on the lease, they own security, they get to make the rules.

If the rules are have the effect of discouraging some people from entering Israel, that is apparently a result they are willing to accept.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
daviation
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:04 pm

Wow, this is an interesting discussion. This is really where all the hidden political agendas suddenly become unhidden.

Israel's tourism is way up, so I don't think the majority of people are bothered by additional security. In fact, they may feel safer. Israel's ethnic profiling has foiled many acts of terrorism. And as for denying entry into the country, yeah, it certainly lessens the chance of being blown up in a nightclub like so many were in the past.

Mr. Mco - no one is deflecting issues. The facts speak for themselves. Saddam Hussein and the Assads have thought nothing of destroying their own people. In Israel, there are Arabs who serve in the Parliament, who have free public health (go to Hadassah Hospital yourself, and you can see that most of the patients are Arabs!).

The U.S. does not bankroll Israel. They provide military aid which promptly returns back to U.S. in the form of sales. The U.S. spends much more on protecting South Korea, $2-billion on Egypt, supports NATO monetarily and militarily, which lets most European nations cut their own military costs.

Has Israel made mistakes? You bet they have! But that's not the discussion here. A few posters seems intent on shoving their political agendas into a discussion of tight security.

So there it is. You might want to examine why you have such animosity toward Israel. Because of the settlements? There were no settlements in 1967, and there was no lack of hatred then either. If you don't want to visit Israel, don't! I personally find it to be one of the most fascinating countries I've ever visited. And the number of visitors continues to increase.
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mcogator
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 33):
. It is so wrong to profile people by how they look.

They are profiled mostly by name, since both sides tend to look alike, except for the European Ashkenazim.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
That's another argument. Their name is on the lease, they own security, they get to make the rules.

Yes, the lease. If you consider land taken illegally by force a lease, that's another argument as well.

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The facts speak for themselves. Saddam Hussein and the Assads have thought nothing of destroying their own people

Unfortunately for both they are not considered their own people. The Alawites differ from the Sunni's, and the Kurds in the north of Iraq are not Arabs. It is similar to Ashkenazim making sure they don't mix their blood with Sephardim and Mizrahim, and their kids do not go to school together.

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The U.S. does not bankroll Israel. They provide military aid which promptly returns back to U.S. in the form of sales.

The US gives military aid to Israel in the form of US arm sales which are then forgiven. It's a tricky tactic.

"Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan."

http://www.wrmea.org/special-topics/9748-us-aid-to-israel.html

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
You might want to examine why you have such animosity toward Israel. Because of the settlements? There were no settlements in 1967, and there was no lack of hatred then either.

Prior to '67
1. Acquisition of land by force
2. Forbidding right of return
3. Collective punishment
4. Practice of Apartheid
5. Illegal occupation

[Edited 2012-06-07 11:58:47]
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mcogator
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:56 pm

Here is a "unbiased" report on U.S. aid to Israel.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf


"Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs."
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
That's another argument. Their name is on the lease, they own security, they get to make the rules.

If the rules are have the effect of discouraging some people from entering Israel, that is apparently a result they are willing to accept.

In German, we have two words, "recht" und "richtig". Something can be lawfully right, or something can be morally right. By asking travellers to allow access to their e-mail accounts certainly isn't right referring to the latter term. And I have doubts about its intended effectiveness. It rather serves to intimidate people, and to suppress civil rights both in Israel and abroad.

When I communicate with a human rights organization about something, it may turn up in my mailbox. Even when writing from Switzerland. And just for the case I have to travel to TLV one day, should I refrain from using my civil rights and stop supporting that organization?

Certainly not.

But this argument is almost moot because I have little interest in visiting that country during the current times.
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
fr8mech
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 38):
When I communicate with a human rights organization about something, it may turn up in my mailbox. Even when writing from Switzerland. And just for the case I have to travel to TLV one day, should I refrain from using my civil rights and stop supporting that organization?


Again, it's their right (and the right of any sovereign nation) to deny entry based on whatever criteria they want. They want to exclude you because you've communicated with some agency, more power to them. They lose your money, but they feel they may also be losing some trouble. Their call.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 38):
In German, we have two words, "recht" und "richtig". Something can be lawfully right, or something can be morally right.


I never said they are morally right in doing what they are doing, but they are certainly within their rights as a nation.

A question for those in the know: can an Israeli citizen travel to an Islamic state, such as Saudi Arabia or Syria or Iran, etc.? How about a Jew?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
Again, it's their right

It is, but still worthy of criticism. 
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
A question for those in the know: can an Israeli citizen travel to an Islamic state, such as Saudi Arabia or Syria or Iran, etc.? How about a Jew?

They can, if they have double citizenship (e.g. U.S. and Israeli). But they can't travel on their Israeli passport, though. Also, many countries don't stamp passports in order not to make troubles for the traveler if he or she visits an "enemy" country later.
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
daviation
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:07 pm

Well, MCOGATOR, you've certainly made your agenda clear! And there is nothing I can say that will change your misguided opinion.

Acquisition of land by force, for example: in 1967, did the Israelis wake up and say, 'gee, why don't we attack and occupy Arab lands today?' No, they were desperate to avoid a war with Nasser and the other armies who saw the chance to finally wipe out the jews. Levi Eshkol himself said that Gaza would be a bone stuck in Israel's throat. Subsequent governments wanted to give back that land under the terms of a peace treaty. As you well know, the Arabs decided in Khartoum in 1968 that there would be no negotiations, no recognition, no peace.

But you've made your opinions clear enough.

Some of your facts are just as ridiculous: the mixing of Ashkenazi and Sephardi blood? You've got to be kidding. This is probably the most common marriage in Israel.

You seem to know enough about the political landscape to parse your 'facts' accordingly; they appear to be reasonable, but they are at the core racist and hateful. I'm ashamed to be on the same blog as you.
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LAXintl
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:41 pm

This discussion should have nothing to do with what might have occured in 1967, or issues like about Arabs living in Israel.


Instead the concept is a very simple one -- and one that has been in existance going back to the middle ages.


Simply put - when one presents themselves to a border crossing, one is subject to review. Crossing a border is not a right, but a privellage, and the authorites can tax, search or place whatever restrictions they deem suitable on such crossings.


In todays electronic world, the review of cell phones, laptops can be routine, so like I said prior looking through cloud based storage such as emails is not much different then in the past rifling through your personal papers, or journals. Its simply an extension of such search as technology has evolved whereby we rely on electronic media over physical matter.


Anyhow, for those that have issues, please don't travel to Israel, the US, or any other nation you might feel exceeds your personal comfort zone.
On a broader scale I'm not sure how "private" things like email are anyhow. Personally I view anything committed to digital form is subject to access or review whether its my government, employer, colleagues, or spouse.
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Emirates773ER
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
You're a white kid with a non-descript name from America. Of course you breezed through. If your name was Omar Saleh, I guarantee it wouldn't have been so easy.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 12):
How about all the people who go to Israel in a daily basis and have no issues?

Try being a brown guy in his late twenties and a muslim. I was held for 13 hours under the pretense of interrogation and asked some of the most ridiculous questions that can come to mind.

'Why did your grand father migrate from India to Pakistan in 1948'?

'Why do you not keep a beard'?

'Call your parents on their cell phones to verify your identity'

'Would you fight if a call to Jihad was made'?

'If Pakistan attacked Canada whose army would you join'?

After the lengthy interview/interrogation I was given a 7 day visa and indirectly told to think twice before coming back to Israel.
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fr8mech
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 43):
After the lengthy interview/interrogation I was given a 7 day visa and indirectly told to think twice before coming back to Israel.


So, don't go back.

They can do what they want.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
In todays electronic world, the review of cell phones, laptops can be routine, so like I said prior looking through cloud based storage such as emails is not much different then in the past rifling through your personal papers, or journals. Its simply an extension of such search as technology has evolved whereby we rely on electronic media over physical matter.


Heck, this is the modern version of searching your luggage.

It may not be morally correct, but it is well within their rights. Or, if you're an Israeli living under the threat of missiles, bombings, shooting, kidnappings, etc, you may think that this is perfectly moral and correct.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 43):

       
A demeaning and dishonoring experience.
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
lewis
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Personally I view anything committed to digital form is subject to access or review whether its my government, employer, colleagues, or spouse

An email is like the old-style paper mail. People can of course read it without your permission but that doesn't make it right. I am not sure if it is even legal to open mail not directed to you that may contain private information.

My bank account statements are in digital form online. So are parts of my medical records. But I don't understand why you focus on the "digital" part? So, you wouldn't mind if your boss was reading your personal emails? How about if he came to your house, opened the letterbox and started going through your letters, bills, bank statements? Is that OK with you?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
Heck, this is the modern version of searching your luggage.

They can search your luggage and things and they can check if your briefcase contains papers or contraband. What they cannot do is read through your papers, there is such thing as confidentiality. I do not think that I would let anyone near my work laptop, it contains sensitive information and I would be in a lot of trouble, even from a legal standpoint, if anyone was snooping around my clients' files and communications. Also, private conversations cannot be obtained and used without a warrant, at least in countries that consider themselves democratic.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
As an Aussie I don't think you need a visa at all.

Ok, But when applying for a visa (for those that are required to do so) must you declare what religion you are ?

And are you asked this upon entering Israel ?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 32):
I'm not sure about the entry requirements from Australia, but for me (or any other American...not sure about other countries) to go there, you buy a ticket, get on a plane, and get a free 3 month tourist visa when you arrive at TLV.

See question above

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The facts speak for themselves.

They should, but very often for political purposes, get blurred somewhat.

Here are some facts I found that certainty refute what you say about Arabs in Isarel

Comparing Palestinian Israelis to Jewish Israelis

Of course, all the outcomes just described coexist with extraordinary privilege and wealth in Israel, which is an OECD country. How do outcomes for the Palestinian subgroup compare to outcomes for Jews? I highlight just a few:

Palestinian Israelis are live on just 7% of the land with high population densities due to de jure discrimination among land authorities in Israel.
55% of families below the poverty line in Israel are Palestinian Arab.
Average Arab salaries are 30% lower than Jewish ones, according to the Central Bank of Israel.
Average per-student allocation at Arab schools is 1/5 the Jewish average, according to Israel’s Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education.
Despite poor health outcomes, Israel’s health ministry allocated Arab communities in 2002 less than 0.6% of its 277 million shekel) budget to develop healthcare facilities in Arab localities.
Of the 55,000 people working in government companies, one percent are Arab.
From 1952 to 1972, proportion of total government budget allocated to Arab sector ranged from 0.2 to 1.5%. Rose to 4% in 2008.
Since 1948, approximately 600 new Jewish municipalities, but not one Arab one has ever

From the web site

http://www.hybridstates.com/

So you see, when you read that, it appears that your assertions aren't quiet accurate about how Arabs are treated in Israel, does it now ?

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The U.S. does not bankroll Israel.

Again, you assert that the US dose not bank roll Israel....?

From what I can gather, the US has funded Israel, since 1948, with a combined total $$$ package in excess of US$49 billion. Not bad if you can get it !!

But please read this article

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/cost_of_israel.html
And
http://www.ifamericaknew.org/stats/usaid.html

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The U.S. spends much more on protecting South Korea, $2-billion on Egypt, supports NATO monetarily and militarily, which lets most European nations cut their own military costs.

Not sure about that, at least according to reports I have read, (like the one above) Americans are funding Israel, and at a much larger rate than what you think !

Quoting daviation (Reply 41):
But you've made your opinions clear enough.

As you have. Remember there are always 2 sides to any given story.  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Cadet985
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:05 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
It may not be morally correct, but it is well within their rights. Or, if you're an Israeli living under the threat of missiles, bombings, shooting, kidnappings, etc, you may think that this is perfectly moral and correct.

Here in America, we go to malls, park our cars and just walk in. In Israel, cars get checked and a brief chit chat with the driver before entering the premises, and then before entering, every person goes through metal detectors. Some in America would find this invasive, but it is done in Israel, and they don't complain.

Marc
 
daviation
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RE: TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:21 am

Commodore, you know you can spin statistics anyway you'd like. In Israel, there are substrata of Jews (from Arab countries, from Africa) who are also below the poverty line. So being below the poverty line isn't restricted to or aimed at Arabs.

Right here in the U.S., blacks, Latinos, Native Americans are groups that are living below the poverty line. Is that out and out discrimination? In some cases, yes, but there is no official policy of discriminating against these groups.

During my visits to Israel, I saw remarkable towns (mostly in the north) made up solely of Arabs (you could tell by the minerets). These were all quite lovely. In Haifa, there is a very peaceful coexistence between Arabs and Jews.

So use your stats any way you want. You have already chosen your point of view; now you are parsing stats to back up your agenda. Have you ever been to Israel, by the way? I became ill there on my last visit, went to Hadassah Hospital, and waited for my place in the long line of Arabs receiving free medical care. They didn't wave me on because I'm a white American.

If the Israelis are rightfully terrified of more attacks in airports or nightclubs, it is within their right to examine anything they want. It isn't easy getting into the U.S. either.

And by the way, 27000 U.S. troops in the Korean DMZ cost annually what the U.S. has paid to Israel in its entire history.
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