fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6717
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:33 pm

President Obama, today announced that his administration would no longer deport illegal immigrants, under the age of 30, if they came to the United States before they were 16. These illegals should have relatively clean records and have graduated a US high school (I thought it was college, but the article says high school) or served in the US military. Basically, the DREAM Act (lite) by presidential fiat and not by congressional action.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/r...-illegal-immigrants-133800284.html

So, once again, this president, for political expediency and to garner political favor is bypassing Congress and choosing which laws to enforce and which laws not to enforce.

Personally, I think he went early on this...he should have waited until September. Maybe he's desperate.

Oh, by the way...may I quote The President on this very subject?

"With respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order, that’s just not the case, because there are laws on the books that Congress has passed -- and I know that everybody here at Bell is studying hard so you know that we’ve got three branches of government. Congress passes the law. The executive branch’s job is to enforce and implement those laws. And then the judiciary has to interpret the laws.

There are enough laws on the books by Congress that are very clear in terms of how we have to enforce our immigration system that for me to simply through executive order ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President."

yup, that's our man.

I know a bunch will jump into advocating for or against the DREAM Act, as enacted(?) by The President, but, I'm more concerned about how he's talking out both sides of his ass, and clearly playing to the Hispanic electorate and bypassing Congress.

Obama sycophants: defend!
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Obama sycophants: defend!

I'm not going to. The man wants to get elected. He is a politician, this is the kind of stuff that they do.

The GOP throws gays and minorities under the bus to garner votes, Its he same concept really...

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Personally, I think he went early on this...he should have waited until September.

Yes.. he should have waited to get Bin Laden until Sept as well.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Maybe he's desperate.

Maybe he finally started doing what he promised in his first election. - you know the promised that got him elected in the first place.

[Edited 2012-06-15 12:39:50]
Step into my office, baby
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6717
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
Maybe he finally started doing what he promised in his first election. - you know the promised that got him elected in the first place.

You mean he promised to bypass Congress in 2008?

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
Yes.. he should have waited to get Bin Laden until Sept as well.

I'm sure the thought crossed Axelrod's mind.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:44 pm

Yes he has made himself King. Why do we even need Congress or the Constitution anymore?

His behind the scenes polling must be bad to be tossing all of this out this early.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
You mean he promised to bypass Congress in 2008?

He promised to make it happen - and this is a way to do it.

Same thing with DOMA, same thing with DADT.

His positions in all of these things were known in 2008 - he got elected with promises to address them.

So, why the shock?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
Yes he has made himself King. Why do we even need Congress or the Constitution anymore?

And what he has done unconstitutional? (serious question)

[Edited 2012-06-15 12:47:52]
Step into my office, baby
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
President Obama, today announced that his administration would no longer deport illegal immigrants, under the age of 30,

I would only agree if they were females that were very attractive. Otherwise, kick 'em out!  
Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Personally, I think he went early on this...he should have waited until September. Maybe he's desperate.

Well of course. Have you seen the recent jobs numbers and recent spike in NEW unemployment claims?
Not to mention, more & more states are sliding in to the Romney side. Obama has appeared to be losing Florida, North Carolina, Ohio, tied in Michigan and losing Wisconsin - a state that Michael Dukakis won.
Even more damaging, a new poll shows Obama losing 20% of the African-American vote to Romney. The highest percentage of any Republican since Eisenhower in the African-American voting block.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...nc/2012/06/14/gJQARPvRcV_blog.html

Obama is desperate and I doubt his latest stunt to connect with the working class by cozying up to Anna Wintour and Sarah Jessica Parker is paying off.
Bring back the Concorde
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:55 pm

If Congress wasn't as dysfunctional, if members of Congress weren't so fake and driven by party politics, racism and short term thinking, maybe this reform would have passed a long time ago !

I don't agree on how this is being done, but I agree on the principals of the reform!

And sometimes one needs to be bold for the greater good. Obama has just done that...
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6717
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
His positions in all of these things were known in 2008 - he got elected with promises to address them.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
And what he has done unconstitutional? (serious question)



So, it's OK to bypass Congress? Congress failed to pass the DREAM Act, that does not mean the President gets to do what he wants.

To, once again, quote The President:

"Congress passes the law. The executive branch’s job is to enforce and implement those laws. And then the judiciary has to interpret the laws." and "...laws on the books by Congress...through executive order ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President."

Congress did not pass the very provisions that President Obama has ordered DHS to implement. That really does look unconstitutional to me.

Why have a Congress if The President can do what he wants? Any president?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 6):
And sometimes one needs to be bold for the greater good. Obama has just done that...

And that my point - he got elected based on bold acts - which, for whatever reason, he was incapable of doing. Now he is making good on what he promised - and for the record:

1- Political Stunt:Check
2- Wants to get in with Hispanics: Check
3- Timing is suspect: Check:

We all knew that this is what he wanted in 2008. If people wouldn't have wanted it then - he wouldn't have been elected.
Step into my office, baby
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 6):
If Congress wasn't as dysfunctional, if members of Congress weren't so fake and driven by party politics, racism and short term thinking, maybe this reform would have passed a long time ago !

I don't agree on how this is being done, but I agree on the principals of the reform!

I'll go along with this somewhat. The politics of compromise are none existent in Congress nowadays so they have become their own enemy.

On the DREAM Act I will say that I don't agree with giving those here illegally any sort of easier path to citizenship than those that are here legally (or waiting to come here legally). With that said however, I can understand the plight of those that grew up here through no choice of their own and are American in almost every way (many pledge allegiance to the flag daily). So if I were going to write something for this group I essentially would make that if they want the citizenship then those that brought them here illegally (i.e. their parents) could no longer remain in the country and could not be sponsored to return. Yes it would likely be a very difficult decision to make by these children but as I said I do not think it should be easy, and also if the parents came here so their kids could have a better life, well they still get that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6717
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 6):
I don't agree on how this is being done, but I agree on the principals of the reform!

And sometimes one needs to be bold for the greater good. Obama has just done that...

Really? So if a President decided something was for the greater good, he could do it, without Congressional action?

Please take a moment and read The US Constitution, paying attention to Article 1, Section 7.

What about a governor, when dealing with a state legislature?

Should we just 'elect' kings?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Please take a moment and read The US Constitution, paying attention to Article 1, Section 7.

Funny how he was touted as being a 'Constitutional scholar'.   
No one said he was good at it.
Bring back the Concorde
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
Yes he has made himself King

Sounds like it.And he's using the Tax payers credit cards which he is maxing out.Buy now,pay later.Here's why.

Why is Obama dumping 800,000 now illegal new job seekers on a other already stressed job market?Business laying off or downsizing.Workers are trying to hang on to what they have or little of.Now they have to face this. What?After the election unemployment goes to 12% or does he care?Sounds like credit card usage to me.

30 years or younger.Does that mean cheaper on prime jobs.Oh-Oh.layoffs for over thirty.

American jobs first? WTF! Impeach the POTUS.

The "Dream" but "nightmare act" to legal citizens tax payers is now paying for state education here in California to illegals.Another slap in the face to legals who have to face rising tuition costs.

The President's job is to protect American interests first. Not foreigners!

The democrats new motto's to me seem to be "Unethical is Ethical" and "Illegal is Legal."

Oh,yes.About the Latino meetings next week in which Obama is so concerned about,if I we're a candidate for POTUS,I would refuse saying the POTUS does not approve or promote any illegal activity and come under such requests.

[Edited 2012-06-15 13:36:51]
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5448
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
would no longer deport illegal immigrants

it's a 2 year deferral.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
So, once again, this president, for political expediency and to garner political favor is bypassing Congress and choosing which laws to enforce and which laws not to enforce.

he is managing his priroities and money better. As CHIEF EXECUTIVE he is priotitziing to go after the main problems of people currently jumping the fence, or illegals with criminal records.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):

There are enough laws on the books by Congress that are very clear in terms of how we have to enforce our immigration system that for me to simply through executive order ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President."

the Executive is doing his job by prioritizing issues while congress bides it's time coming up with an effective plan regarding immigration and enforcement . I emphasize EFFECTIVE.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
it's a 2 year deferral.

More like kicking the can down the road for the next President to deal with. Same thing he did with the debt crisis which resulted in the first US credit downgrade in history.
Bring back the Concorde
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
More like kicking the can down the road for the next President to deal with

Which would be himself?
Step into my office, baby
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6717
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
We all knew that this is what he wanted in 2008. If people wouldn't have wanted it then - he wouldn't have been elected

And, the people put a stop to his agenda in 2010 by curtailing his majority in The Senate and swinging The House by about 80 seats.

Quoting tugger (Reply 9):
I'll go along with this somewhat. The politics of compromise are none existent in Congress nowadays so they have become their own enemy.

Ok, change the Constitution, but until then, or until a more 'non-partisan' Congress is elected, he doesn't get to make his own laws.

Pure political pandering.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
the Executive is doing his job by prioritizing issues while congress bides it's time coming up with an effective plan regarding immigration and enforcement . I emphasize EFFECTIVE.

You do realize I was quoting President Obama, right? He is the one who said that he can not ignore congressional mandates. Congress did not pass the DREAM Act...that means he should be enforcing the current law, which is, after due process, to deport illegal aliens.

[Edited 2012-06-15 13:29:04]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Ok, change the Constitution, but until then, or until a more 'non-partisan' Congress is elected, he doesn't get to make his own laws.

So what he was done is illegal? (serious question- asked twice already, no answer)

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
And, the people put a stop to his agenda in 2010 by curtailing his majority in The Senate and swinging The House by about 80 seats.

That still doesn't changed the fact that he was elected in 2008 for the same promises.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Pure political pandering.

And opposition to gay right by the GOP is what? Not pandering? Please

News Flash: In politics EVERYONE panders! Some pandering happen to be more effective than others.
Step into my office, baby
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:32 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
he is managing his priroities and money better. As CHIEF EXECUTIVE he is priotitziing to go after the main problems of people currently jumping the fence, or illegals with criminal records.

Yes, the whole stupid "the sky is falling!", "The president is anointing himself king" crap is stupid (really, stupid) as the President has long had the established right to issue directions to his branch to target what they are to do.

Quote:
US presidents have issued executive orders since 1789. Although there is no Constitutional provision or statute that explicitly permits executive orders, there is a vague grant of "executive power" given in Article II, Section 1, Clause 1 of the Constitution, and furthered by the declaration "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" made in Article II, Section 3, Clause 4. Most Executive Orders use these Constitutional reasonings as the authorization allowing for their issuance to be justified as part of the President's sworn duties, the intent being to help direct officers of the US Executive carry out their delegated duties as well as the normal operations of the federal government: the consequence of failing to comply possibly being the removal from office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order#Basis_in_US_Constitution
.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
it's a 2 year deferral.

So the people covered by this will be known and can still be deported if needed.

I have stated how I feel about the DREAM act, and granting those here illegally a path to citizenship. And still I don't disagree with what is being done here. We do need to focus our enforcement resources to those people that make the greatest impact, those here illegally that are most a danger to others.

The big problem with this though is that it still leaves those children in a total limbo, they can't get a job legally or do anything that normally requires citizenship, so how can they support themselves?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5448
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
You do realize I was quoting President Obama, right? He is the one who said that he can not ignore congressional mandates. Congress did not pass the DREAM Act...that means he should be enforcing the current law, which is, after due process, to deport illegal aliens.

You DO REALIZE that a DEFERAL is not ignoring laws. Especially for folks that were MINORS at the time of the incident, and under law do not have the ability to conscientiously make a decision for themselves without adult decree.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5448
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
More like kicking the can down the road for the next President to deal with. Same thing he did with the debt crisis which resulted in the first US credit downgrade in history.

Look, the current congress already screwed it up. Rubio the golden child still hasn;t been ablle to put together anything that makes sense. 2 years hopefully gets Obama to a house and senate that aren't in a cold war.  
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20150
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Same thing he did with the debt crisis which resulted in the first US credit downgrade in history.

Really? I seem to remember that it was Congress with a deadline, not the President.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 18):
The president is anointing himself king"

Hold the phone.. News from the Internet!

The United States has had the following "kings'"

Herbert Hoover (1929-1933)
Franklin D. Roosevelt (1933-1945)
Harry S Truman (1945-1953)
Dwight D. Eisenhower (1953-1961)
John F. Kennedy (1961-1963)
Lyndon B. Johnson (1963-1969)
Richard Nixon (1969-1974)
Gerald R. Ford (1974-1977)
Jimmy Carter (1977-1981)
Ronald Reagan (1981-1989)
George H.W. Bush (1989-1993)
Bill Clinton (1993-2001)
George W. Bush (2001-2009)
Barack Obama (2009-present)

"King" GWB was responsible for 288 orders. Obama -so far- only 115. Does that make him "double the king"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ed_States_federal_executive_orders

[Edited 2012-06-15 13:44:29]
Step into my office, baby
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:44 pm

Former Pennsylvania governor Ed Rendell has been vocal about his disapproval of Obama and has said publicly that Hillary Clinton would have been a better President.
Looks like his base is crumbling.


http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ren...4/id/442391?s=al&promo_code=F30A-1
Bring back the Concorde
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4900
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
Yes he has made himself King. Why do we even need Congress or the Constitution anymore?

His behind the scenes polling must be bad to be tossing all of this out this early.

As if other presidents before him didn't issue Executive Orders. Right, because this was something the 110th Congress approved just as Obama took office...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Why have a Congress if The President can do what he wants? Any president?

You can also ask why have a president if Congress will oppose his every move?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
the first US credit downgrade in history.

Oh no...the end of the world...wait. I'm still here, and the US is still here. And guess what? The US dollar and stock market are higher. I guess the downgrade didn't have a big impact after all. Oh, and don't forget the reason S&P gave for the downgrade:
http://www.standardandpoors.com/rati...icles/en/us/?assetID=1245316529563

Look at the third bullet. it specifically mentioned the deal between Congress and the president. Now...I wonder...which party has a majority in the house and came close to a majority in the senate? Yeah, I thought so.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
We all knew that this is what he wanted in 2008. If people wouldn't have wanted it then - he wouldn't have been elected

And, the people put a stop to his agenda in 2010 by curtailing his majority in The Senate and swinging The House by about 80 seats.

So why are you blaming him for taking action if "people stopped his agenda"? That's what I find ironic. You want him to work, but you vote in a party that will oppose his every move even if it's what they preach. So what would you have him do? Leave him as a lame duck for the 2 years before the elections? Make him resign? The fact that the GOP made significant gains in Congress doesn't mean that Obama still doesn't have plans to put forward. If Americans never wanted Obama in office, why was he elected in the first place? He made these promises public: universal healthcare, path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, etc. Maybe Americans should have voted for McCain and kept the conservative agenda instead of punishing the GOP by voting for Democrats.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6717
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 18):
there is a vague grant of "executive power" given in Article II, Section 1, Clause 1 of the Constitution, and furthered by the declaration "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"


"take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"..."the Laws"

The implication is the executive orders are used to expedite the enforcement of laws currently on the books.

I just reviewed a list of Executive Orders, and quite frankly, I'm appalled at the number of executive orders issued by President Bush, but a quick review of their titles, doesn't really tell me that he was circumventing US law or the Congress.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Hillary Clinton would have been a better President.

Well, yeah, I think many people agree with this. I know I do. But then most people also wish they had voted for someone else other than Bush II in the primaries when they had the chance....

So what's new, what's the big news here?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 17):
So what he was done is illegal?

No. The deportation law leaves it up to the executive branch to determine who should and should not be deported. There is nothing that says that certain people must be deported (except possibly relating to terrorism suspects, which is not the sort of people we're dealing with here). Congress is free to pass such legislation, of course. They are also free to attempt to impeach Obama if they think he's overstepping his bounds.

That said, while I fully support the Dream Act, and think it's disgusting that it didn't pass, I don't care for doing things this way. It's fine while the party you support is in power, but it sets a pretty bad precedent when the other guys are in power (which they eventually will be).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5448
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Hillary Clinton would have been a better President.

Well, yeah, I think many people agree with this. I know I do. But then most people also wish they had voted for someone else other than Bush II in the primaries when they had the chance....

So what's new, what's the big news here?

Tugg

Can we havew a new thread for such an irrelevant discussion?
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6717
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 24):
"people stopped his agenda

people did not stop his agenda...The People stopped his agenda.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 24):
Leave him as a lame duck for the 2 years before the elections?

Yes, that was the effect that The People were looking for when they took away the Democratic majority in 2010. That, or force him to moderate.

By the way, near as I can tell, he hasn't issued an executove order in this case. He's just doing it.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:57 pm

Genius. Way to encourage trafficking of young people Mr Pres.....
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
By the way, near as I can tell, he hasn't issued an executove order in this case. He's just doing it.

Google is our friend

"In a Rose Garden address Friday afternoon, President Barack Obama said the changes caused by his executive order will make immigration policy "more fair, more efficient and more just."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/15/politics/immigration/index.html

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Genius. Way to encourage trafficking of young people Mr Pres.....

For trafficking to work- as you imply - you would require a time traveling machine...

[Edited 2012-06-15 14:00:08]
Step into my office, baby
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
"take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"..."the Laws"
The implication is the executive orders are used to expedite the enforcement of laws currently on the books.


Correct, and as I said, I agree that we need to focus our limited law enforcement resources specifically on those here illegally that cause the most harm to the USA. After that then let's go after the rest. But we don't have sufficient resources to go after everyone, when we try to do that we end up with the theater that occurs daily in our airports under the watchful eye of the TSA. And we don't need that or to spend money on that kind of stuff.


Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
I just reviewed a list of Executive Orders, and quite frankly, I'm appalled at the number of executive orders issued by President Bush, but a quick review of their titles, doesn't really tell me that he was circumventing US law or the Congress.

I believe there was one on what the definition of torture was... or what would not be considered illegal to do.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 28):
Can we havew a new thread for such an irrelevant discussion?

  

Tugg

[Edited 2012-06-15 14:13:42]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4651
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Same thing he did with the debt crisis which resulted in the first US credit downgrade in history.

I find it hilarious that banks can take stupid risks, lose a buttload of money on it, and then make people believe that the country (and specifically, only the chief executive) is somehow at fault for it.

I don't particularly care for many of Obama's recent decisions (especially this one), but to suggest he alone is responsible for the credit "downgrade" (from perfect to extremely good), is ignorant.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:43 pm

Will these illegals have access to Obamacare?
If so, Congressman Joe Wilson (R-SC) was correct when he shouted out; "You lie" in Obama's State of the Union several years ago.
Bring back the Concorde
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 31):
For trafficking to work- as you imply - you would require a time traveling machine...

Nope. Give the impression that things like this can happen and people will come. Pretty much any form of amnesty encourages trafficking.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
If so, Congressman Joe Wilson (R-SC) was correct when he shouted out; "You lie" in Obama's State of the Union several years ago.

No matter what, the congressman was not correct when he shouted out. Period. It was wrong. He was wrong to do it.

And sorry for another

Quoting casinterest (Reply 28):
irrelevant discussion

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 36):
No matter what, the congressman was not correct when he shouted out. Period. It was wrong. He was wrong to do it.

No argument there.
Bring back the Concorde
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:34 pm

This is exactly what a dictator does, not an American president. We are a constitutional republic. The rule of law and the separation of powers are completely foreign concepts to this administration.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 35):
Pretty much any form of amnesty encourages trafficking.

Correct. many of these kid's are from the flow that came after Reagan granted amnesty. Did nothing to stop the flow. Only made it worse. If only Our President's would use the rule's on the book's and stop the trafficking across the border's first.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:39 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
This is exactly what a dictator does, not an American president. We are a constitutional republic. The rule of law and the separation of powers are completely foreign concepts to this administration.

That is a nonsensical statement on it's face based on what was actually done. Why would you make such a statement? It is just not a smart or well though statement. It is flamebaiting and bombastic and nothing more. I mean, similar things were said about Bush and people were loudly criticized for making such comments. Why would you do so now when you disapproved of them then?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:42 pm

BHO seems to have touched some nerves today ...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Should we just 'elect' kings?

I believe the US President IS an elected King. He has a lot of reserved powers to act in the national interest, which I would submit this is. He can veto legislation passed by Congress, for example. And there is the whole thing about EOs.

In Commonwealth countries, a law passed by any elected body is not law until the Queen approves it. She always does, but there is always the possibility that she might not.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
Why is Obama dumping 800,000 now illegal new job seekers on a other already stressed job market?Business laying off or downsizing.Workers are trying to hang on to what they have or little of.Now they have to face this. What?After the election unemployment goes to 12% or does he care?Sounds like credit card usage to me.

Are these illegals eligible for legal work and/or unemployment benefits ?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
would no longer deport illegal immigrants

it's a 2 year deferral.

Which in my limited understanding of things constitutional is not unconstitutional, since the executive determines HOW laws are to be enforced.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 24):
You can also ask why have a president if Congress will oppose his every move?

  

To me, the interesting aspect of this is how does Romney respond ? The GOP have traditional sucked at getting the Hispanic vote. Romney has said he was going to go after a larger fraction of those votes. So, if he opposes this, he may well drive away any remaining Hispanic support for the GOP. Or he has to support Obama decision, or something very similar.

"The horns of a dilemma."
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
PSA53
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
Why is Obama dumping 800,000 now illegal new job seekers on a other already stressed job market?Business laying off or downsizing.Workers are trying to hang on to what they have or little of.Now they have to face this. What?After the election unemployment goes to 12% or does he care?Sounds like credit card usage to me.

Are these illegals eligible for legal work and/or unemployment benefits ?

Part one is yes.That's why it's such a fuss right now.Once they apply for work status they may apply for work anywhere.Part 2.Don't know,but I'd say yes because all employees(Ca) contribute into the program.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):
Are these illegals eligible for legal work and/or unemployment benefits ?

Yes. They can apply for two-year work permits, with unlimited renewal opportunities. Adding more legal workers to an already large unemplyed workforce.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4651
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):
He can veto legislation passed by Congress, for example.

Not really a valid point, as Congress can override a veto by a 2/3 majority. The President's power to veto is a check on Congress, and Congress being able to override that veto is a further check on the President's power.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6717
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):
To me, the interesting aspect of this is how does Romney respond ? The GOP have traditional sucked at getting the Hispanic vote. Romney has said he was going to go after a larger fraction of those votes. So, if he opposes this, he may well drive away any remaining Hispanic support for the GOP. Or he has to support Obama decision, or something very similar.

Which is why I expected it in September. It's a great poltical move and, quite coincidentally I'm sure, coincides with Time Magazine's cover story this week.

Romney is in a box. My suggestion would be to keep quiet about it and only answer questions asked. But, I'm sure the media will pound it because they know it's a win situation for Obama. Romney can only lose votes here.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 42):
Yes. They can apply for two-year work permits, with unlimited renewal opportunities. Adding more legal workers to an already large unemplyed workforce.

Well that's a good thing of course. It keeps wages lower which makes the USA more competitive.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):
Which in my limited understanding of things constitutional is not unconstitutional, since the executive determines HOW laws are to be enforced.

  
Just like police chiefs in cities, they can decide to have their officers not focus on certain things to make better use of the police.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
Not really a valid point, as Congress can override a veto by a 2/3 majority. The President's power to veto is a check on Congress, and Congress being able to override that veto is a further check on the President's power.

And Congress can also pass a bill to overrule the president's EO. So the check on the power is still there.


Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
Romney is in a box. My suggestion would be to keep quiet about it and only answer questions asked.

FoxNews will be on of the first to ask him about it (it has the best access to oliticians on the right, that is why I assume it will them first). And they will ask follow on questions no matter what his answer is. You are right, he can't win on this one.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
, I'm sure the media will pound it because they know it's a win situation for Obama.

Silly attribution. It has nothing to do with it being "a win for the President". It has everything to do with it being an easy news lead and an easy thing to pin Romney with. Media of all stripes will do it, it doesn't belong to just one "side".

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4900
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:18 am

Speaking about jobs, you have to truly wonder if there are not jobs to go around. Are you hoping to land a dream job where you have a personal secretary, huge office, and an unregulated schedule? What about all the smaller jobs around? Being hired part time by a store (say McDonald's as an example) is still loads better than being unemployed hoping to land a better job. But of course, people won't apply because that would belittle them. I admit, I would be offended at the thought of spending thousands of dollars on a degree to end up in a McDonald's, but what else am I gonna do? Should I stay unemployed and complain how trickle-down economics don't work (which apparently is the case thus far) or should I at least find a part-time to make ends meet? I'd go with the second one, thank you very much.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 45):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):Which in my limited understanding of things constitutional is not unconstitutional, since the executive determines HOW laws are to be enforced.

Just like police chiefs in cities, they can decide to have their officers not focus on certain things to make better use of the police.

How to enforce it is far different than not enforcing it. Obama is choosing to NOT enforce the law. He is changing the intent of the law passed not using the executive order to better enforce the law. As for the Police Chiefs they cannot decide that tomorrow for the next two years Prostitution is legal and we will not pick them up and then we will give them work visa's. What a joke.
 
User avatar
2707200X
Posts: 5025
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:31 am

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:59 am

I wonder of any conservative will chastise their hero Ronald Reagan and George W, Bush on amnesty, some time ago Republicans supported the DREAM Act. Follow the goat.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12502
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: DREAM, By Presidential Fiat

Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:10 am

The sainted Republican President Ronald Reagan supported bills, laws and policy that gave amnesty to 3,000,000 + illegals.

In his term of office so far, President Obama has returned to their home countries more who were here illegally than any other President in the same time period.

We can't deport 10-18 Million persons here illegally due to it's costs and economic dislocations. Basically Pres. Obama's policy gives 2-year renewable deferrals to those came to the USA before they were age 16. It still means their parent/parents or other family members that came here illegally as adults or those even in this group who do criminal acts can be deported. Nothing in this policy means they get a fast track to citizenship, indeed it is still a limbo for many. Pres. Obama is using his prosecutable and policy powers to prioritize who to go after, like those that have serious criminal records or involved with criminal activity like the drug trade rather than some hard working or trying young adult who came here because of his parents.

For these young people, they can have employment where bosses cannot extort them with low pay, time off the clock or doing dangerous work using the threat of ratting them to the INS. They can go to college. Still they may be ineligible for some scholarships or jobs where citizenship is necessary and have to keep out of trouble, but in the end as no one will make any decisions such as the DREAM Act, it is a humane act.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: einsteinboricua, Hillis, NLCFFX, salttee and 26 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos