Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1): Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them. |
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1): Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1): Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them. The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): Citizens United. |
Quoting tugger (Reply 5): Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation. |
Quoting tugger (Reply 5): Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation. It's crazy, it is very bad for the nation. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6): Frankly, I suspect that someone bribed the justices. Now it will take a Constitutional amendment and that will take something resembling an armed revolution. |
Quoting tugger (Reply 5): Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation. |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8): Why an amendment ? I thought CU was merely an act of Congress. Surely they can simply repeal the law ? |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8): But a corporation is a person, legally. It has rights, protections, and obligations, although I grant you that the obligations are being whittled away. |
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 9): It's an interpretation the Supreme Court made of the Fourteenth Amendment. From ~1880.... |
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 9): The more things change the more they remain the same, I guess. Of course, they didn't have television, political consultants, bogus telephone polls, or "super PACs" back then. Also the deranged billionaires bought concert halls instead of election campaigns. Possibly |
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1): Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy. |
Quoting Superfly (Thread starter): democracy in action |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8): But a corporation is a person, legally. It has rights, protections, and obligations, although I grant you that the obligations are being whittled away. |
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 15): People voted.Majority spoke.The man is an alarmist over reactionary crybaby. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17): No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights." |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17): We need to get private money out of campaigns permanently. All campaigns need to be publicly funded on a fixed budget. |
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18): In other words, the government will have strict control for who and how people run for office. That's some democracy. What could possibly go wrong? |
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18): And one of those rights is freedom of political speech. |
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 10): It was a Supreme Court decision, challenging an act of Congress. They would need to write a new law that adheres to the SCOTUS' interpretation of "free speech." Which is about as likely as me winning the 24 Hours of Le Mans tomorrow, all by myself, with a rental car. |
Quoting tugger (Reply 11): Can a corporation vote? (And I am not talking about what they currently buy in Congress.) Can I own a piece of a person? How come there are people that are also corporations? Simply put, a corporation is NOT a person as in a human individual, you know, a real person. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17): No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights." It cannot be executed, put in jail, held accountable for criminal acts, get married. People cannot merge, be dissolved, be spontaneously created out of nothing, have their personal liability limited, etc. |
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18): Oh bull. Liberals prove daily that they are cynical warts who have no faith in the independence of their fellow citizens, |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): Speech and money are two very different things. |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20): Corporations are required to pay taxes (unless they have a shitload of really good lawyers), have rights and protections, can be libelled or defames (and can respond to that in court), can own real property, yadda yadda. Of course a person can't be divided or merged (absenting marriage and divorce, I suppose), but in many respects a corporation is treated legally the same way as a person is. And so it says in my 1st year law text. |
Quoting tugger (Reply 21): Corporations cannot vote and their speech regarding/affecting votes should be severely curtailed |
Quoting tugger (Reply 21): If they need "speech" then there are millions of people that work for corporations that will be happy to speak for them as their interests intersect. The corporations would lose no real rights to speech. Funny how that works, people may actually be able to speak.... |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20): Of course a person can't be divided or merged (absenting marriage and divorce, I suppose), but in many respects a corporation is treated legally the same way as a person is. And so it says in my 1st year law text. |
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1): Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy. |
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14): My question is what will this matter to the man in the video? Will he lose his right to vote or will he just have to pay an extra $5 co-pay for a physical or to get his teeth cleaned? |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23): Do they get a vote? |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23): an they be imprisoned for crimes? No. |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22): I believe a recent SCOTUS ruling actually amplified corporations right to speak. Might not be desirable, but I think that's the reality. |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22): It's called advertising. Various corporate associations are even now trying to mold your opinion regarding the upcoming election. Same here. Again, might not be the right way to go, but that's the reality. |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20): Corporations are required to pay taxes (unless they have a shitload of really good lawyers), have rights and protections, can be libelled or defames (and can respond to that in court), can own real property, yadda yadda. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): When only the wealthy control the outcome of elections, that is not democracy. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): Speech and money are two very different things. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): You will sing a very different song when the telecoms pass a law mandating every American to own a cell phone. Don't think it can't happen. |
Quoting tugger (Reply 21): Yeah, that is bull. Anytime anyone reduces something down so far and applies to an entire group that has no true definitive definition, it is bull. You must be a Liberal.... why else you you make the statement of a "cynical wart"? |
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 27): BTW, freedom of speech for a corporation...isn't that what press releases are for? You mean to tell me that freedom of speech for a corporation means funding a certain candidate up to the point where he/she obtains the upper hand in campaigns? I don't think so. It's time the "rights" of a corporation be curtailed. |
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 28): You are so backwards. If a purchase mandate were passed into law, it would ride on the precedent of the health insurance mandate signed into law by Democrats, not Citizens United. Hopefully, the same court that upheld free speech in Citizens United will uphold a limiting principle of government. |
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14): My question is what will this matter to the man in the video? |
Quoting EricR (Reply 24): They try to paint a picture of life without union representation as armageddon. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30): Purchase mandates have already been signed into law; they have just been done as "taxes." You are mandated to purchase Social Security, for example. You are mandated to purchase road use. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30): Individual states have purchase mandates on cars for car insurance. |
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29): Why should companies like General Electric, Viacom, Disney, Microsoft (all owners or part owners of mainstream media chains) be allowed to state their opinions 24 hours a day, but Coca Cola or Boeing cannot? |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy. |
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7): Democracy died when the greeks decided to raid buildings and assume mob mentality. Same with the Wisconsin unions. |
Quoting nwaesc (Reply 34): Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7): Democracy died when the greeks decided to raid buildings and assume mob mentality. Same with the Wisconsin unions. ??? So fighting for the right to peaceably assemble and for the redress of grievances (no pun intended) are indicative of a mob mentality? |
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29): The real issue is campaign finance and campaigning activity. That needs to be brought under control. But if Boeing wants to pay for an ad that says "Vote for X", I have no problem with it (as long as it says "Paid for by Boeing". I dislike these PAC and Super-PAC type organizations. |
Quoting seb146 (Reply 31): It is easier for a group to negotiate with government that an individual to negotiate with government. And, yes, it will cost the individual more out of pocket for insurance and retirement. Unless the right-wing gets their way and they raid all the retirment funds so no one has anything. Yes, that is exactly where we are headed with the current right-wing plan |
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 35): I'm guessing that the Boston Tea Party was also a blow to democracy. Darn those who were against the British at the time. |
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38): We are indeed at a tipping point. The United States is no longer a nation of laws. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30): Obamacare has not been decided yet. The same Supreme Court will not exist in twenty years. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30): Purchase mandates have already been signed into law; they have just been done as "taxes." You are mandated to purchase Social Security, for example. You are mandated to purchase road use. |
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30): Individual states have purchase mandates on cars for car insurance. |
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38): We are indeed at a tipping point. The United States is no longer a nation of laws. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77486.html Personally I feel that this is grounds for impeachment, though if the GOP tries it will probably backfire politically. But if these actions are allowed to stand, Congress has become meaningless, when the president can unilaterally do whatever the hell he wants. |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 45): I have to assume the learned professor knows the constitution better than you do. It's his job, after all. |
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 46): Clearly not everything translates from academia to the real world. |
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 45): In the linked article, which I assume you read (fair use quote): “If the president says we’re not going to enforce the law, there’s really nothing anyone can do about it,” University of Pennsylvania constitutional law professor Kermit Roosevelt said. “It’s clearly a political calculation.” I have to assume the learned professor knows the constitution better than you do. It's his job, after all. |
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 46): Obama was a constitutional law professor and his administration has suffered repeated blows and challenges regarding the constitutionality of his administration's actions. Cases recently lost by the Obama administration in unanimous judgement: Hosanna-Tabor Church v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission United States v. Jones Sackett v. Environmental Protection Agency Bond v. United States Clearly not everything translates from academia to the real world. |
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48): Typical leftist thinking. The Constitution grants the EXCLUSIVE power to make laws to Congress. It vests the power to execute the instructions of Congress to the Executive branch (Executive => executes) Obama - so-called Constitutional expert, and they guy you quoted know as much about the law as did Al Capone - just enough to know how to break it. |