connies4ever
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Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:35 pm

I can't believe in 2011 that this kind of nonsense continues to occur. It makes me wonder why women even talk to us:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-word-vagina-abortion-debate.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDDUoXsSN5g

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...te-capitol-steps-article-1.1097068

Interesting and amusing ripostes from two columnists at Slate magazine, the first of which I find almost too funny:

http://www.slate.com/articles/double..._time_to_regulate_against_it_.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...of_the_anti_choice_mega_bill_.html

I'm a guy, and I know I should stand up for my gender. We as a group often do wonderful and selfless things. But pretty regularly the Neanderthal gene asserts itself and stupidity like this rears its' ugly head. Perhaps restricted only to Michigan state GOP legislators, but I don't know that for sure.

For crap's sake, guys, it's the 21st century, not 10,000 BC. If you're assured that it is, go dress in some animal skin, get a spear, and go get dinner for your family. But beware that Homeland Security will be watching you.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:43 pm

I'm lost, what is the big outrage? The abortion related bill or that they don't want her to say vagina?
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
Perhaps restricted only to Michigan state GOP legislators, but I don't know that for sure.

No, pretty much 'tea party endorsed' candidates..
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Tugger
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I'm lost, what is the big outrage? The abortion related bill or that they don't want her to say vagina?

From what I could make of it I am pretty sure the Republican's were upset with her thinking they were interested in her vagina....

(from connies first link)

Quote:
But what caused the most controversy were the closing words to Brown’s speech. ‘And finally, Mr Speaker,’ she said. ‘I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my vagina, but no means no.’

Was her wording particularly wonderful? No. However I think the rebuke is silly on its face. Perhaps if she had called it her "hoo-hoo" or vah-jay-jay instead....

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DeltaMD90
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Quote:
But what caused the most controversy were the closing words to Brown’s speech. ‘And finally, Mr Speaker,’ she said. ‘I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my vagina, but no means no.’

Was her wording particularly wonderful? No. However I think the rebuke is silly on its face. Perhaps if she had called it her "hoo-hoo" or vah-jay-jay instead....

Ah, well to be fair, that was a pretty unprofessional thing to say. But I think they're making a mountain out of a molehill. Isn't the abortion debate controversial enough without throwing in this stupidity?
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rampart
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:33 pm

I read that she was scheduled to perform "The Vagina Monologues" near the state capital. Here:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...onologues-in-protest-of-gag-order/

Yea!

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Was her wording particularly wonderful? No. However I think the rebuke is silly on its face. Perhaps if she had called it her "hoo-hoo" or vah-jay-jay instead....

That's equally stupid, no offense. That very suggestion came up in an Onion spoof yesterday. Or maybe I'm not in a good mood and you actually are trying to crack a joke, and that I can appreciate. But what a bunch of idiots. Her wording was exactly right, and she would have been faulted more for using the slang (or profanity). Having a debate that involves medical procedures and ethics, not to mention symbolism (while not using any offensive slang), one would think grown-ups could be capable of discussing correct anatomical parts.

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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
Ah, well to be fair, that was a pretty unprofessional thing to say. But I think they're making a mountain out of a molehill. Isn't the abortion debate controversial enough without throwing in this stupidity?

  

Both sides could do better but alas, neither side seems interested in doing so.

Quoting rampart (Reply 5):
That's equally stupid, no offense. That very suggestion came up in an Onion spoof yesterday. Or maybe I'm not in a good mood and you actually are trying to crack a joke, and that I can appreciate. But what a bunch of idiots. Her wording was exactly right, and she would have been faulted more for using the slang (or profanity). Having a debate that involves medical procedures and ethics, not to mention symbolism (while not using any offensive slang), one would think grown-ups could be capable of discussing correct anatomical parts.

As I have been called out on in another thread, I am finding it hard to address stupidity without utilizing equal stupidity (and I hadn't seen it in The Onion). Yes, I am trying to joke about it as it all just seems so inane. The word "vagina" shouldn't and doesn't have any offensive qualities about it but I think it was her stating they were taking an interest in "her vagina" that bothered them.

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DeltaMD90
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
The word "vagina" shouldn't and doesn't have any offensive qualities about it but I think it was her stating they were taking an interest in "her vagina" that bothered them.

Yeah, can you imagine a guy talking to a primarily woman audience (or even an audience with just a few women) saying to not be interested in his penis? Heads would roll and it would be a huge national outrage. A guy couldn't say that, neither should this woman. But she did... say "shame on you" and move on...
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rampart
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
Yes, I am trying to joke about it as it all just seems so inane.

Sorry, then, for my take on your comment. I can see that she used it, accurately, in a way that would confront their stupidity, to it was meant to be provoking, I think. It seems to have been the next and necessary level of discourse, and it will be often repeated.

Brown's take on her religion is spot on, btw. That's not getting much attention, but the teenage chatter is.

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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):

Yeah, can you imagine a guy talking to a primarily woman audience (or even an audience with just a few women) saying to not be interested in his penis? Heads would roll and it would be a huge national outrage. A guy couldn't say that, neither should this woman. But she did... say "shame on you" and move on...

But that's not what she said.

It's not at all inappropriate for her to say "I understand you're really interested in my vagina, but no means no" and it isn't in any way comparable to the hypothetical you've just given.

A more apt comparison would be a man telling a legislative body that is 80% female and looking to severely and extremely restrictively regulate men's reproductive health to please stay away from his penis. Legislation similar to what has been considered by Republicans in various states where these bills have come up might include, say, mandatory catheterization for anybody who wanted, say, a vasectomy or a prostate examination.

Her objection comes from a religious point of view being legislatively forced, almost exclusively by men, onto women who are not of the same faith.

The Michigan house wants to enact extremely restrictive anti-abortion legislation, the justification for which is primarily religious. Right away, that's not good. But beyond that, these "small government conservatives" feel perfectly comfortable with legislating on Women's health matters and, in particular, seem spectacularly fixated on women's reproductive health to the exclusion of more important issues. They are also willing to legislate invasive, medically unnecessary procedures that women will be forced to undergo if they want to use their right to an abortion.

On a macro note - there's nothing at all conservative about any of that. Forcing religion on people, forcing people to go through outrageously insulting, invasive, and un-necessary procedures, none of this is in any way "conservative" and it defames the very notion of "conservative."

Her response is, if anything, moderate compared to the draconian lengths of these pieces of legislation, which seem to be cropping up in every Republican controlled legislature in the country in what looks like an extraordinarily coordinated war on women's choices, freedoms, and reproductive rights.

She's perfectly justified, and those who would censor her - and another female representative who didn't use the word but also argued against the radical anti-abortion measure - on other, completely unrelated matters that have nothing to do with vaginas - or women's health - or religion should resign their offices effective immediately.

Let's hear the speech, btw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eRyQi-o9MA

[Edited 2012-06-18 15:46:08]
 
connies4ever
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I'm lost, what is the big outrage? The abortion related bill or that they don't want her to say vagina?

I actually think the bigger outrage is the legislation.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 2):
Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
Perhaps restricted only to Michigan state GOP legislators, but I don't know that for sure.

No, pretty much 'tea party endorsed' candidates..

Yup. The neanderthal gene runs strong there.

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):

From what I could make of it I am pretty sure the Republican's were upset with her thinking they were interested in her vagina....

(from connies first link)

Thanks for the credit !   
But do the GOP actually know where one is ? Oh, sorry, they keep breeding...

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):
The Michigan house wants to enact extremely restrictive anti-abortion legislation, the justification for which is primarily religious. Right away, that's not good. But beyond that, these "small government conservatives" feel perfectly comfortable with legislating on Women's health matters and, in particular, seem spectacularly fixated on women's reproductive health to the exclusion of more important issues. They are also willing to legislate invasive, medically unnecessary procedures that women will be forced to undergo if they want to use their right to an abortion.

To my way of thinking, any religiously-based legislation is extremely dangerous. And morality, which is not a universal standard but a personal one. Rights are different, and are universal.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):
On a macro note - there's nothing at all conservative about any of that. Forcing religion on people, forcing people to go through outrageously insulting, invasive, and un-necessary procedures, none of this is in any way "conservative" and it defames the very notion of "conservative."

Indeed, I always thought the "conservatives" wanted society to be based on individual choices, not on top-down legislation.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):
Her response is, if anything, moderate compared to the draconian lengths of these pieces of legislation, which seem to be cropping up in every Republican controlled legislature in the country in what looks like an extraordinarily coordinated war on women's choices, freedoms, and reproductive rights.

Underlining the seriously mysogynistic tendencies of some of the extreme Republicans -- even the women. I guess there must be a fair bit of self-loathing in that closet.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):
She's perfectly justified, and those who would censor her - and another female representative who didn't use the word but also argued against the radical anti-abortion measure - on other, completely unrelated matters that have nothing to do with vaginas - or women's health - or religion should resign their offices effective immediately.

I think we're in lock step on this topic ! To quote Steve Martin from "My Blue Heaven" -- "I'm witcha".
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):
Her objection comes from a religious point of view being legislatively forced, almost exclusively by men, onto women who are not of the same faith.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):
I actually think the bigger outrage is the legislation.

Not to start another abortion debate, but it's not always religious. I'm 100% AGAINST forcing religion on people but I am against abortion and think it should be outlawed based on human rights of the baby, just as I'm against the death penalty for non-religious reasons. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I don't care and don't want to start this debate again. But to equate anyone against abortion as "anti-woman" or "pushing religion" is rubbish. It often is, and maybe these guys in Michigan are, but they actually may not be. That would be implying that a politician isn't being political for once, but I digress...
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:29 am

The best part was when the State House passed an "anti-bullying" bill that SPECIFICALLY exempted bullying that is based on "religious or ethical grounds."

So basically they passed a bill that says that bullying is fine as long as you justify it with your religion or ethical views. It was a SPECIFIC exception made to allow anti-gay bullying, but worded so broadly that it would have been legal to bully a kid for being Jewish...or Christian.

It's as if all the high school bullies got together and formed the Michigan GOP. Remember, there's a branch of the KKK in Michigan (I know; they drive around with Confederate flags, too... it's bizarre) and they are HEAVILY involved in state politics.
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
or that they don't want her to say vagina?

Bingo!

Holy rollers don't want actual anatomy terms used - better to keep those under the covers.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):
But beyond that, these "small government conservatives" feel perfectly comfortable with legislating on Women's health matters and, in particular, seem spectacularly fixated on women's reproductive health to the exclusion of more important issues.

They are pretty vicious when it comes to women's health.

Let's see how they do when men's health comes up.

Or, say, how to go after the Deadhead Dads. (Doesn't the GOP have a Deadbeat Dad serving in Congress?)

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):
They are also willing to legislate invasive, medically unnecessary procedures that women will be forced to undergo if they want to use their right to an abortion

I guess that means we have

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):
Indeed, I always thought the "conservatives" wanted society to be based on individual choices, not on top-down legislation.

That was before the GOP was taken over by Holy Rollers, The TPers, and unlimited cash in SuperPACs. Remember how the Freshmen GOP were whipping Boehner around after they were sworn in? Uncontrolled religious zealots, they would have been funny to watch if they didn't do so much harm.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
just as I'm against the death penalty for non-religious reasons.

I don't understand, does that mean you are for the death penalty for religious reasons?
 
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting cargolex (Reply 9):

The Michigan house wants to enact extremely restrictive anti-abortion legislation, the justification for which is primarily religious. Right away, that's not good. But beyond that, these "small government conservatives" feel perfectly comfortable with legislating on Women's health matters

This is something I have aways wondered.

I live near the state capitol, and what I think has a lot of people outraged is not only that what she said isn't necessarily wrong, it was that the House Majority informed the House Minority that she would not be allowed to speak. While both parties have not always been able to speak, they have never been told in advance. With them telling both representatives(there was a kind of similar event) that they could not speak, they were in essence cutting off the voices of ~180,000 constituents.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120616/COL10/206160426

Quote:
"It's never happened," legislative historian and Inside Politics editor Bill Ballenger said. "There is no precedent. There have been altercations in the House and Senate. But the idea of the controlling party, Republican or Democratic, censuring, in a sense, two of its members for speech, literally clamping down on their free-speech rights?It never happened and shouldn't happen.
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:15 am

Every Democrat should have walked out of the chamber when the recommendation for discipline came up. They need to be behind both women and tie up any legislation until they are allowed to speak.

The actions of the Republicans in Michigan with these women is beyond disgusting, they just wanted to silence any opposition to more highly restricted reasonable access to abortion or health care to get for cheap votes from the religious right for.
 
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
The best part was when the State House passed an "anti-bullying" bill that SPECIFICALLY exempted bullying that is based on "religious or ethical grounds."

Holy crap. What a disgrace.

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DocLightning
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
That was before the GOP was taken over by Holy Rollers, The TPers, and unlimited cash in SuperPACs. Remember how the Freshmen GOP were whipping Boehner around after they were sworn in? Uncontrolled religious zealots, they would have been funny to watch if they didn't do so much harm.

No. They are not religious. They are not even zealots because they don't know what they're zealous about. They are high school bullies in suits. They are rebels without a cause. Like anarchist demonstrators on the streets in London, they will use whatever justification, no matter how irrelevant, inappropriate, or outrageous, to continue on a destructive binge for the sake of being destructive. As long as someone is suffering at their hands, their work is being done. As long as they can slap each-other on the back and claim to be shaking things up, they are happy.

And it speaks a lot about the quality of the American people that we let them get into power.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
just as I'm against the death penalty for non-religious reasons.

I don't understand, does that mean you are for the death penalty for religious reasons?

No it means I don't base decisions regarding others / laws based off religious reasons. Religiously I'm against the death penalty, but in a debate with others, I won't bring the religious aspect into it. Same with abortion

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
The best part was when the State House passed an "anti-bullying" bill that SPECIFICALLY exempted bullying that is based on "religious or ethical grounds."

Holy crap. What a disgrace.

   I wonder who they think they're fooling...
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:05 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
  I wonder who they think they're fooling...

A huge contingent of very angry people who will vote for other angry people.
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connies4ever
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
Not to start another abortion debate, but it's not always religious. I'm 100% AGAINST forcing religion on people but I am against abortion and think it should be outlawed based on human rights of the baby, just as I'm against the death penalty for non-religious reasons. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I don't care and don't want to start this debate again. But to equate anyone against abortion as "anti-woman" or "pushing religion" is rubbish. It often is, and maybe these guys in Michigan are, but they actually may not be. That would be implying that a politician isn't being political for once, but I digress...

An interesting and very debatable point. In Canada, for example, our Supreme Court has ruled, long ago now, that human rights are not vested until an actual live birth has been performed. Ergo, fetuses have no rights. Which in this country puts paid to the idea of protecting the human rights of a fetus. Also, injuring a pregnant woman to the point she has a miscarriage cannot result in a homicide charge.
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
  I wonder who they think they're fooling...

A huge contingent of very angry people who will vote for other angry people.

Lol shoulda known the answer to that, at least in this situation

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):

I don't go as far as thinking abortionists are murderers or people that believe in abortions are bad people, we just don't see eye to eye at all. That never gets the point across and further divides the country... case in point, this thread's link!
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DocLightning
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):

An interesting and very debatable point. In Canada, for example, our Supreme Court has ruled, long ago now, that human rights are not vested until an actual live birth has been performed. Ergo, fetuses have no rights. Which in this country puts paid to the idea of protecting the human rights of a fetus. Also, injuring a pregnant woman to the point she has a miscarriage cannot result in a homicide charge.

I have mixed feelings here. It means that if a mom uses meth while she's pregnant, she's not committing child abuse. In this country, that mom loses parental rights (and I agree with that).

A lot of the rights of the fetus depend on whether the intention is to carry it to term or not. This isn't my opinion; it's just how it works, like it or not (I don't like it, for the record).

To me, the line needs to be drawn at a point where most babies delivered at that gestational age will have a normal outcome. Currently, that line is at about 25-27 weeks. I have a lot of trouble calling a ball of eight human cells a "human," especially because a pregnancy doesn't occur until after implantation. On the other hand, I have even more trouble saying that a 38-week fetus can be killed in utero because it hasn't passed the cervix yet. That's a human being in there.

There is no scientific consensus on exactly what moment life begins. Even if you think it's "fertilization," it's not so simple. Is it when the sperm contacts the zona pellucida? Many sperm do. Is it when the acrosomal reaction starts? First rise in calcium influx in the oocyte (zygote?)? Exclusion of other sperm? Initiation of DNA remodeling and chromatin uncoiling? First division? That can happen even if the sperm is a "blank" and it will proceed eight times (IIRC) regardless of whether there is an intact nucleus.

The issue here isn't religion vs. no religion; it's the idea that some people think that they are so positively sure of the answer to these questions that they have the right to legislate those answers for others. I happen to be quite anti-abortion, but I don't own a uterus and I don't presume to know where that thin line is drawn. It would be (and is) the height of arrogance to claim that you know better than I do and that you will use the law to force me to accept your view. For that reason, I remain pro-choice. It strikes me as stunningly ironic that people who champion around a cause of "smaller government," when pressed on almost any given issue other than regulation of trade, want the government to take a huge role.
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connies4ever
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):

I don't go as far as thinking abortionists are murderers or people that believe in abortions are bad people, we just don't see eye to eye at all. That never gets the point across and further divides the country... case in point, this thread's link!

Oh, believe me, I agree with you. It's a medical procedure, and we can argue all day about whether or not it is necessary, but if the woman chooses, as far as I am concerned, it's a done deal. No man has ever had, or will ever have, a baby. And no man understands what the woman is going through in the whole process. Observe it, yes; understand it, no.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
There is no scientific consensus on exactly what moment life begins.

Unless of course YOU BELIEVE....which I guess the Michigan House GOP mostly do.

You're the expert in this area, Doc, so I'll defer to your superior knowledge. One question: is it not true that very early stage deliveries in the range you identify tend to have a much higher rate of serious medical complications, up to and including brain damage ?

[Edited 2012-06-19 12:43:46]

[Edited 2012-06-19 12:44:10]
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
You're the expert in this area, Doc, so I'll defer to your superior knowledge. One question: is it not true that very early stage deliveries in the range you identify tend to have a much higher rate of serious medical complications, up to and including brain damage ?

Of course. The more preemie, the more risk.
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seb146
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
Isn't the abortion debate controversial enough without throwing in this stupidity?

Women now have the choice whether to carry a fetus to term or have an abortion. If a woman chooses to carry a fetus to term, that is her right. If another woman chooses to abort, that is her choice. If the right-wing had their way, ALL women would carry the fetus to term and have zero choice.

In short: they want to be up in every woman's vagina.

The right-wing will not allow women to make their own health choices and are disgusted by the clinical term for lady parts. That is their issue. Not all of us at large. They seem to have deep-seeded psychological issues of mothers withholding affection and such. They should all go into therapy.

Oh, wait... they don't believe in science...
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):

Thanks for highlighting why this debate often ISN'T civil. I just explained a point of view that isn't rooted in religion and in an opinion contrary to yours, looks out for a human baby (in our opinion) and you throw out junk like:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
In short: they want to be up in every woman's vagina.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
disgusted by the clinical term for lady parts.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
They should all go into therapy.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
they don't believe in science...

Ok, 1st quote, NO, there are lots of vaginas I don't wanna be near, I just viewing it as baby's rights.
2--doesn't offend me, I originally was gonna type out some other words for vagina but decided the mods wouldn't like it
3--for disagreeing with YOU?
4-ah but I do believe in science, evolution, all that jazz

That's what happens when you use blanket generalizations, you target the stereotypical religious zealot and you wind up sucking people like me in and accuse me of at least 4 things that are completely wrong. I'm sure some of these GOPers are just being politicians or pushing religion, but still, your rhetoric never leads to a civil discourse and only incites. Please do not stereotype
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
That's what happens when you use blanket generalizations, you target the stereotypical religious zealot and you wind up sucking people like me in and accuse me of at least 4 things that are completely wrong. I'm sure some of these GOPers are just being politicians or pushing religion, but still, your rhetoric never leads to a civil discourse and only incites.

I believe the issue the legislator was having was on the concept in the Jewish faith that if the mother's life is at risk then the mother's life supersedes. Yet in many of these laws there is no exception for the mother's life. And that is not an off the cuff concept, "risk to the mother's life" is a medical determination, not made on the fly in some backroom and it certainly shouldn't be legislated.

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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 27):

The Jewish aspect shouldn't have any bearing on the decision, nor should any decision really. The post I was responding to was not talking about any of that, just villainizing an opposing opinion and accusing them of wanting to control women and all that crap. Shuts down the whole conversation and just starts flamewars... less of that attitude from everybody would solve our partisan problem in Washington in like 2 seconds
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DocLightning
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
That's what happens when you use blanket generalizations, you target the stereotypical religious zealot and you wind up sucking people like me in and accuse me of at least 4 things that are completely wrong. I'm sure some of these GOPers are just being politicians or pushing religion, but still, your rhetoric never leads to a civil discourse and only incites. Please do not stereotype

Thank you. MD90 is a conservative (in many ways), but he is not a bigot, a zealot, or a religious wing-nut. We need more conservatives like him.
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Ken777
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:30 am

I can understand that there are many people who are genuinely against all abortions. They aren't flakes. They don't bomb clinics. They aren't the yo-yos we see in Michigan's Legislature.

I believe we need to respect these people, just like we need to respect mothers who need to make a horrid decision for one legitimate or another. One example I was told about was a young wife, delighted to be pregnant, and diagnosed with a blood cancer. She had to go from the doctor's office, have an abortion and start a vigorous regimen of chemo - a cute word for poison. he good news is that she made it through, was able to start a family again and now has a daughter.

What I dislike are (1) the people who use abortions as a means of birth control and (2) those who demand they control a woman's uterus without regard to the reasons for the decision.

Finally, I believe that with all the pressures against abortions that have developed, we need to have a route for a woman to continue with carrying a baby, then turning it over to the state for "whatever". Maybe make the holy rollers take care of them, but the state needs to assume the responsibility for the pressure/laws they burden with.
 
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:11 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
I believe we need to respect these people,

There's a limit. If you think it's better for a mom AND child to die than the fetus alone, then there is something very wrong with you. VERY wrong. And that is what is in some of these abortion bills.
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seb146
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
Thanks for highlighting why this debate often ISN'T civil.

Oh, I did it again...

I was not speaking to you specifically. I was making general comments about the way I see this whole debate. I was speaking to the loud-mouthed and over-bearing minority of far right wing (mostly) men who seem to be obsessed with what goes on in a womans' body.

I should always post this caveat with every political post:

I understand there are those at all points along the political continuum. My post speaks to those at ____ point in said continuum and not only the one person I am quoting.
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Tugger
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 28):

I agree DeltaMD90 and please don't take my post as being negative toward you or how you have been presenting your point of view.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Thank you. MD90 is a conservative (in many ways), but he is not a bigot, a zealot, or a religious wing-nut. We need more conservatives like him.

I'll second that.

Now, to lighten things back up a bit.... wouldn't the thread by be more appropriate if it were "Michigan House GOP Look Like douches"? I mean think about....   

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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
Quoting tugger (Reply 33):

Sorry I over reacted... I just felt like I've personally have come a long way in women's equality (I was pretty sexist before and am still working on it) so I got defensive
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
It strikes me as stunningly ironic that people who champion around a cause of "smaller government," when pressed on almost any given issue other than regulation of trade, want the government to take a huge role.



I think there may be a bit of less regulation for me and more for you.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
You're the expert in this area, Doc, so I'll defer to your superior knowledge. One question: is it not true that very early stage deliveries in the range you identify tend to have a much higher rate of serious medical complications, up to and including brain damage ?
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
Of course. The more preemie, the more risk.



It's all a sliding scale, when I analyse things at work its always the same, the managers want to know where the "cliff" is where we start losing money and I have to tell them there is no cliff but you still have to decide where you want to make the call.

This is why the abortion debate is so difficult, at a certain time (i'll say 24weeks for example) there may be a 50:50 chance that the child will survive but that is still just a number plucked out of someones arse, why not go for 60:40? Who decides when a life is a life?

I personally wouldn't want people who's main aim is to increase the wealth of a nation in the vain belief that money actually makes people happy to make that call.

I think the most important thing is to give people all available information and allow them to make rational and informed decisions about their own and their families lives.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
but the state needs to assume the responsibility for the pressure/laws they burden with.



I agree, people need to take responsibility for their actions and not use abortion as a means of birth control (maybe other forms of birth control should be promoted more heavily, and I don't mean abstinence) and the state also has to take responsibilities for the repercussions of their actions, responsibility is a 2-way street.

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seb146
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
Sorry I over reacted... I just felt like I've personally have come a long way in women's equality (I was pretty sexist before and am still working on it) so I got defensive

No worries. Like I said: I mean to address the class in general but it comes out like a personal attack on one person.
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Aesma
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:50 am

Having 50 laws in 50 states about the same issue is really a good way for the US to continue this debate for centuries to come.
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
The abortion related bill or that they don't want her to say vagina?

she should have said pussy instead
 
Ken777
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:35 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 37):
Having 50 laws in 50 states about the same issue is really a good way for the US to continue this debate for centuries to come.

I really don't want all states to have backwater ignorance or holy rollin yahoos who are so absolute in their laws that women are in danger.

Women who are comfortable financially can go overseas for medical care. Middle class women should be able to get to Canada for medical care. Poor women will be stuck with the coat hangers in back alleys. We need some safe havens for women.
 
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RE: Michigan House GOP Look Like Bozos

Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
I'm a guy, and I know I should stand up for my gender. We as a group often do wonderful and selfless things. But pretty regularly the Neanderthal gene asserts itself and stupidity like this rears its' ugly head. Perhaps restricted only to Michigan state GOP legislators, but I don't know that for sure.

They are just uncomfortable prudes who aren't comfortable with sex, where as I have a sick mind and will discuss how potentially effed up human sexuality can be. If they are uncomfortable with vagina they need to all read Tucker Max's, read at least 5 sex related articles on cracked.com, or at the least attend a proper sex ed course.

Personally I am so glad of the fact that my mom at least will talk to me about the most effed up sexual situation ever. Ironically my dad who says I should go for this girl and that girl runs away when the conversation actually turns to real sex and craziness.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
I'm 100% AGAINST forcing religion on people but I am against abortion and think it should be outlawed based on human rights of the baby, just as I'm against the death penalty for non-religious reasons. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I don't care and don't want to start this debate again.

At least you are consistent, there are a lot of people who are against abortion in all circumstances but will approve of the death penalty.

Kudos for beinf

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Bingo!

Holy rollers don't want actual anatomy terms used - better to keep those under the covers.

Its too complicated, and sex makes them uncomfortable. No big loss as they are probably bad at it. :P

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
I can understand that there are many people who are genuinely against all abortions. They aren't flakes. They don't bomb clinics.

The thing is that a lot of them are actually pro-choice as this Herman Cain clip shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCMlGlsJdbc

I firmly do not think its a good idea and there are better options available but I do not think that a woman should be forced to carry a baby to term especially in the case of rape or incest.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
There's a limit. If you think it's better for a mom AND child to die than the fetus alone, then there is something very wrong with you. VERY wrong. And that is what is in some of these abortion bills.

Are you surprised?? I wouldn't have said it a few years ago but a lot of people of ages can just be plain dumb.

Some of these politicians think that raped women excrete a certain hormone that kills sperm when raped, the ironic part is that vaginal lubricant nourishes sperm to increase the chances of a pregnancy especially during ovulation. The actual statistic is that 5% of all rapes in the US result in a pregnancy, which is pretty damned high.

That same vaginal lubricant that when not present damages vaginal tissue enough during a rape because the female doesn't get aroused (ie. wet), thats how we know. It's potentially a zero sum game either way but it only takes 1 cell of millions to create a pregnancy.
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