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Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:06 pm

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-executive-privilege-over-ff-docs/

Obama has claimed Executive Privilege over the Fast & Furious scandal. Wow. Nevermind that then-candidate Obama decried the use of Executive Privilege to hide from Congress…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpwYh9TD6Nc&feature=youtu.be

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/vie...-executive-privilege-Fast-Furious-

Quote:
"The assertion of executive privilege raises monumental questions," Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley said in a statement released Wednesday shortly after the president's move. "How can the President assert executive privilege if there was no White House involvement? How can the President exert executive privilege over documents he's supposedly never seen? Is something very big being hidden to go to this extreme? The contempt citation is an important procedural mechanism in our system of checks and balances. The questions from Congress go to determining what happened in a disastrous government program for accountability and so that it's never repeated again."

This is HUGE. Grassley nails it—in essence, if Obama is trying to cover for Holder by inappropriately applying EP, then he’s going to get spanked. But if he DOES know about it—and crimes were committed—Obama becomes instantly culpable. It’s not documented that Holder has lied to the Issa committee twice as well as retracting multiple statements after longer periods of time. Moreover, think about this: Executive Privilege has been determined, by SCOTUS, to ONLY apply to the president individually. And it has been interpreted to only apply to military, diplomatic, and sensitive national security issues, of which this is none of them.

United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683


Quote:
{The Supreme Court did not reject the claim of privilege out of hand; it noted, in fact, "the valid need for protection of communications between high Government officials and those who advise and assist them in the performance of their manifold duties" and that "Human experience teaches that those who expect public dissemination of their remarks may well temper candor with a concern for appearances and for their own interests to the detriment of the decision making process." This is very similar to the logic that the Court had used in establishing an "executive immunity" defense for high office-holders charged with violating citizens' constitutional rights in the course of performing their duties. The Supreme Court stated: "To read the Article II powers of the President as providing an absolute privilege as against a subpoena essential to enforcement of criminal statutes on no more than a generalized claim of the public interest in confidentiality of nonmilitary and non-diplomatic discussions would upset the constitutional balance of 'a workable government' and gravely impair the role of the courts under Article III." Because Nixon had asserted only a generalized need for confidentiality, the Court held that the larger public interest in obtaining the truth in the context of a criminal prosecution took precedence.}

So is Obama saying he knew about it? That would be the only reason to claim EP if the claim is legitimate (which it’s not) since EP doesn’t extend to breaking the law. For that Executive Immunity would have to be claimed. One thing’s for certain: Holder’s stonewalling will come to an end, one way or another. And it may take down this corrupt administration. Except unlike past incidents (and the left’s favorite pillar, that being Watergate), we have a dead body this time. Brian Terry deserves justice.

And this country deserves better.
 
Mir
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Moreover, think about this: Executive Privilege has been determined, by SCOTUS, to ONLY apply to the president individually. And it has been interpreted to only apply to military, diplomatic, and sensitive national security issues, of which this is none of them.

I seem to recall GWB using it to prevent Cheney, Rove, Miers and few others from testifying before Congress. In Cheney's case, it was about meetings with members of the energy industry. In the cases of Rove and Miers, it related to firings of federal judges. Those certainly aren't military, diplomatic or sensitive national security issues. At least Fast and Furious dealt with border security.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Except unlike past incidents (and the left%u2019s favorite pillar, that being Watergate), we have a dead body this time.

GWB also invoked EP in the investigation into the death of Pat Tillman. I'm assuming he had a body.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Nevermind that then-candidate Obama decried the use of Executive Privilege to hide from Congress%u2026

Of course, because he was in Congress at the time. People change when they get to the White House - that's nothing new, and Obama has certainly shown that the optimism that was many felt about him was unwarranted. But battles over executive privilege are nothing new either, and this just seems like one of those cases of "it's not our guy who's doing it, so let's get outraged."

-Mir
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 pm

Every president has invoked it--Bush 43 6 times, Clinton 12, EVERY POTUS has.

But there's a marked difference in one president doing it to cover something about how Federal judges were fired and another when there's a BODY COUNT.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
and this just seems like one of those cases of "it's not our guy who's doing it, so let's get outraged."

Tell the family of Brian Terry that.

Tell the family of Jaime Zapata that.

Tell the families of the hundreds of innocent Mexican citizens who've been killed as a result of illegal gun-running.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
few others

?? Few ?? I thought more or less it was all.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
GWB also invoked EP in the investigation into the death of Pat Tillman. I'm assuming he had a body.


That still leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many. I'm sure that includes the parents, who should know the real truth.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Of course, because he was in Congress at the time.

Perspective is always a derivative of the seat you happen to have at any given time.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I seem to recall GWB using it to prevent Cheney, Rove, Miers and few others from testifying before Congress. In Cheney's case, it was about meetings with members of the energy industry.

Did those discussions lead to the deaths of Americans? Any crime involved? In this case, there was a crime - guns were officially permitted to "walk" where normally they would have been stopped by currently valid gun control laws, and as a result one federal officer and at least 100 Mexican nationals are dead.

We want to know who approved the operation.

You know, the stupid thing here is that if, at the very beginning when the story first broke, Holder, Obama or whoever it was who gave the OK had owned up, said, "We screwed up. I'm sorry.", then this whole issue would have gone away pretty quickly. Nobody is expected to be perfect. But the cover-up - that's what gets under everyone's noses.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
In the cases of Rove and Miers, it related to firings of federal judges. Those certainly aren't military, diplomatic or sensitive national security issues.

And the firing of the judges was in no way illegal, nor did it leave a trail of bodies.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I seem to recall GWB

Is that all you can muster up? GWB did it? Does that somehow excuse Obama? GWB was a terrible president, but that does not excuse Obama's blatant misuse of EP. I hope SCOTUS slaps this back in his face.
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windy95
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:10 pm

Oh wait...Bush did it...Nice that Obama changed his mind on another thing he was against during the Bush admin. This guy is joke and he and Holder need to be impeached.
 
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
You know, the stupid thing here is that if, at the very beginning when the story first broke, Holder, Obama or whoever it was who gave the OK had owned up, said, "We screwed up. I'm sorry.", then this whole issue would have gone away pretty quickly. Nobody is expected to be perfect. But the cover-up - that's what gets under everyone's noses.

But it’s not only a political condition to deny wrongdoing—regardless of party—but it is a specifically pervasive condition with this Narcissist in Chief…he’s pathologically unable to admit wrong. It’s his nature: Obama believes what he’s doing is right. And know why? Because he, as well as Holder and Hillary (I’ll dig up the quote and link), have said that we need to ban assault weapons because of the drug trade. With the Mexican cartels going crazy, all the violence and rampant murders, the goal from the beginning was to enact another assault on the Second Amendment.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 5):
Is that all you can muster up? GWB did it? Does that somehow excuse Obama? GWB was a terrible president, but that does not excuse Obama's blatant misuse of EP. I hope SCOTUS slaps this back in his face.

Precisely right---another display of Bush Derangement Syndrome in action. I concur with Dreadnought that Bush was a terrible president, but this far surpasses that.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
Perspective is always a derivative of the seat you happen to have at any given time.

   100% true.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
You know, the stupid thing here is that if, at the very beginning when the story first broke, Holder, Obama or whoever it was who gave the OK had owned up, said, "We screwed up. I'm sorry.", then this whole issue would have gone away pretty quickly.

I don't believe that for a second. If either one of them admitted fault, they surely would have been crucified. Whoever is responsible knows this, and that's why they're backed into the corner they're in now. A lie begets a lie begets a lie, until the liar is caught, whomever that may be.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 6):
he and Holder need to be impeached.

We get you don't like Obama, that's fair, but if you believe this is an impeachable offense, then we would have seen a whole lot more impeachments than just good ol' Bill over the past century.

Quoting slider (Reply 7):
assault weapons
Quoting slider (Reply 7):
another assault on the Second Amendment

Sorry to stray off topic, but is there really ANY reason to possess an assault weapon unless you're serving in the military or part of a SWAT team?
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
You know, the stupid thing here is that if, at the very beginning when the story first broke, Holder, Obama or whoever it was who gave the OK had owned up, said, "We screwed up. I'm sorry."

Like the previous admin said about Iraq?
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:45 pm

Almost 1,300 pages of documents released and still Eric Holder get the eneditable contempt of congress.

It seems that the Republicans care more about show trials and contempt for their enemies, elected and voting than giving a damn about jobs, infrastructure, traditional bipartisan themes and the well being of this country.
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Mir
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 5):
Is that all you can muster up? GWB did it? Does that somehow excuse Obama? GWB was a terrible president, but that does not excuse Obama's blatant misuse of EP.

If I had wanted to excuse Obama, would I have said:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
People change when they get to the White House - that's nothing new, and Obama has certainly shown that the optimism that was many felt about him was unwarranted.

My point was only that while you might get the impression from the OP that invoking executive privilege on this sort of thing is a wholly unprecedented thing, it's not, and, like many things in politics, it's something that people only get irritated about when it's the other side that's doing it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Did those discussions lead to the deaths of Americans? Any crime involved?

Well, we don't know, do we? But if you think there was no corruption, at the very least, going on behind those closed doors, I've got some lovely oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):

And the firing of the judges was in no way illegal

Well, if it wasn't illegal, then there's no reason not to testify before Congress, is there?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
You know, the stupid thing here is that if, at the very beginning when the story first broke, Holder, Obama or whoever it was who gave the OK had owned up, said, "We screwed up. I'm sorry.", then this whole issue would have gone away pretty quickly. Nobody is expected to be perfect. But the cover-up - that's what gets under everyone's noses.

Yup. I think the program was developed with the best of intentions, I think it was a very flawed idea that left too many opportunities for things to go wrong, and that it blew up in people's faces. But that doesn't make it illegal.

-Mir
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I seem to recall GWB using it to prevent Cheney, Rove, Miers and few others from testifying before Congress. In Cheney's case, it was about meetings with members of the energy industry. In the cases of Rove and Miers, it related to firings of federal judges. Those certainly aren't military, diplomatic or sensitive national security issues.

The Cheney use of EP is the most interesting as we may well be paying for the decisions made in that meeting.

I would also love to know if Halliburton was in EP Protected meetings with Cheney as Old Dick was building the case for the invasion of Iraq. If the GOP pushes down EP far enough on the Holder issue then the Democrats will be free to start investigations into this on the day they get a majority in the House.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 6):
This guy is joke and he and Holder need to be impeached.

Go ahead and go after Holder. Every step taken by the GOP will set new standards for future GOP Presidents to live with.

The comments Mir made in Reply 1 show just how important EP has been to the GOP in the past, and will be in the future. That is a pretty hefty, long term cost to pay for bit of political games this week.
 
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Obama has claimed Executive Privilege over the Fast & Furious scandal. Wow. Nevermind that then-candidate Obama decried the use of Executive Privilege to hide from Congress…

You can't just claim that it's "executive privilege." that's just corrupt dictatorship, especially when Americans are getting killed from our own Americans.

I have a feeling that if Obama is found to be covering up something, he will get impeached. I'm sick and tired of his crap already.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 8):
I don't believe that for a second. If either one of them admitted fault, they surely would have been crucified. Whoever is responsible knows this, and that's why they're backed into the corner they're in now. A lie begets a lie begets a lie, until the liar is caught, whomever that may be.

The cover-up is always worse than the crime. I agree that there would have been a lot of attempts at crucifying whoever took responsibility, but that will likely happen anyway, and now it'll be a bigger deal, whatever comes out of it.

-Mir
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seb146
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
And it has been interpreted to only apply to military, diplomatic, and sensitive national security issues, of which this is none of them.

Actually, this is all three of those. There is another soverign nation involved (I know that means nothing to the 'let's invade them and lie about it' crowd) so that brings up diplomatic and national security issues. In some states, the military is involved in border security. Plus, if any administraion ever hopes to launch any other undercover missions for any reason, they need to keep names secret.

Unlike Valarie Plame.

Quoting slider (Reply 7):
It’s his nature: Obama believes what he’s doing is right.

That same tired excuse was used for GWB pulling out of Afghanistan and doubling down on Iraq. So, it is okay for the rich white guy with the (R) behind his name, but not the self-supporting black guy with the (D) behind his name. We know. We get it. Money and privilige trumps working class. We get it.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
The comments Mir made in Reply 1 show just how important EP has been to the GOP in the past, and will be in the future. That is a pretty hefty, long term cost to pay for bit of political games this week.

Ah, leave it to good old Ken to play the partisan. Hey, I agree with you on the Cheney thing...I still don't know fully what they didn't want to disclose nor understand the rationale for having invoked it. But the context of this is MUCH different from merely using it to cover discussions made about firing federal judges.

Here's a good little overview on modern use of EP:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/polit...ivilege-in-recent-history-20120620

Rather bipartisan invocation of it, isn't it? And for potentially damnable perceived transgressions right?

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...ecutive-privilege-shannen-w-coffin

A little additional insight into how EP works above as well. It's important to know the 2 primary means of using it and WHY they're used. Gives context. You know, context is what helps is intellectually differentiate between the R and D behind the name, right?  

As one commenter put it:

Quote:
The most salient and recent precedents on executive privilege are the D.C. Circuit's rulings in the 1997 Espy case (involving Clinton's Agriculture Secretary) and the 2004 Judicial Watch case (involving Clinton's 2000 pardons). Under these precedents, as you suggest, there are two possible ways a President can assert executive privilege, either (a) the "deliberative process" privilege; or (b) the "presidential communications" privilege. President Obama has not invoked the latter, so what matters is what these cases say about the "deliberative process" privilege.

Importantly, under Espy, "where there is reason to believe the documents sought may shed light on government misconduct, the deliberative process privilege is routinely denied on the grounds that shielding internal governmental deliberations in this context does not serve the public interest in honest, effective government." Put differently, again by Espy, the privilege "disappears altogether when there is any reason to believe government misconduct has occurred." That threshold has clearly been met in Fast and Furious.

The context here in which the claim of executive privilege has been invoked undermines the integrity of the claim. By invoking executive privilege to specifically cover the administration's response to an investigation into its conduct eviscerates the underlying rationale for the privilege to exist.

So, shall we talk about context some more?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
You can't just claim that it's "executive privilege." that's just corrupt dictatorship, especially when Americans are getting killed from our own Americans.

I have a feeling that if Obama is found to be covering up something, he will get impeached. I'm sick and tired of his crap already.

I agree with you about the corruption part. This goes FAR beyond anything Tricky Dick did. As I said before, there was no body count in Watergate.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
The cover-up is always worse than the crime. I agree that there would have been a lot of attempts at crucifying whoever took responsibility, but that will likely happen anyway, and now it'll be a bigger deal, whatever comes out of it.

I totally agree with that. I was just pointing out that it wouldn't have been as peachy as suggested had they admitted to it early on. There's no such thing as leniency when it comes to Blue vs. Red.

Quoting slider (Reply 16):
Hey, I agree with you on the Cheney thing...I still don't know fully what they didn't want to disclose nor understand the rationale for having invoked it. But the context of this is MUCH different from merely using it to cover discussions made about firing federal judges.

The situation with Cheney was with respect to him having private interests in Haliburton, was it not? If so, it can be argued that there is a body count attached to that one as well.

I mostly agree with your Watergate remark, although a gross misappropriation of one's power (the highest power in the land, no less) is still a huge injustice whether someone dies as a result or not.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
I mostly agree with your Watergate remark, although a gross misappropriation of one's power (the highest power in the land, no less) is still a huge injustice whether someone dies as a result or not.

I would also add that beyond the fact that we have fatalities involved in Fast & Furious, we also have what is at the least gross incompetence by the adminstration since they had ZERO controls in place to track the guns shipped to Mexico and at the worst a deliberate action to put our agents in harm's way in doing so. They had to relinquish their weapons once crossing over into Mexico and were ambushed.

The mainstream old media has done its best to ignore this story--another deliberate abdication of their duties as govt watchdog--but now? This story isn't going away. Nor should it. And if I were Romney--speaking as an opponent of Obama and not as a repub or conservative--I would absolutely hammer away on this.
 
Ken777
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Well, we don't know, do we?

Just like we don't know about all the discussions that led to invading Iraq. We do know some, especially from reading Woodward's book.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
that's just corrupt dictatorship

Not really. It is simply two branches of government with equal power and one (the legislative) trying to get an hand over the "opposition", which is the President.

The problems with political power struggles is that they set new standards for the future - and generally it is a lower standard.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
especially when Americans are getting killed from our own Americans.

Such as more Americans killed in Iraq than 9/11? We never have learned the whole truth on that one.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
Unlike Valarie Plame.

ANother Cheney FUBAR. Or is simply because he is just a nasty little man missing in integrity?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
That same tired excuse was used for GWB pulling out of Afghanistan and doubling down on Iraq.

Bush moved troops to Iraq because he eventually discovered he was taken to the cleaners on the WMD bit and was totally misled on how military operations would go in Iraq.

Quoting slider (Reply 16):
Ah, leave it to good old Ken to play the partisan.

LOL! And I thought I was being non-partisan by noting that both sides will lose in the future with lower standards.

Quoting slider (Reply 16):
Here's a good little overview on modern use of EP:

Nice, easy to understand article.

The difficult part is to really identifying what should be held under EP. Cheney lowered the standards with his visit from the oil men. A list of attendees should be protected? Guess so. :-i

Quoting slider (Reply 18):
I would also add that beyond the fact that we have fatalities involved in Fast & Furious, we also have what is at the least gross incompetence by the adminstration since they had ZERO controls in place to track the guns shipped to Mexico and at the worst a deliberate action to put our agents in harm's way in doing so.

Sort of like the previous administration when they had similar programs? I don't think the GOP really wants the public to know the full range of similar programs that were run under Bush/Cheney.

Don't push too hard for what will only be the "latest" program when you have the risks of previous programs becoming public.
 
PHX787
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Such as more Americans killed in Iraq than 9/11? We never have learned the whole truth on that one.

Ok This is what I tell everybody when they asked why we went to Iraq:

We led a coalition and was given a UN Security Council Resolution which basically TOLD us to go to Iraq. We just stayed there a little too long because of the insurgency.
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Mir
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
Ok This is what I tell everybody when they asked why we went to Iraq:

We led a coalition and was given a UN Security Council Resolution which basically TOLD us to go to Iraq.

Well, you're incorrect. Nobody was ever told to go into Iraq. There was a resolution that, as the Bush Administration (and others in the coalition) decided to interpret it, authorized an invasion (but did not require one). You can find other governments that drew different interpretations.

-Mir
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ltbewr
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:54 am

The 'Fast & Furious' program was a volatile mix of the drug wars, our obscene demand for drugs, our absolutism as to 2nd Amendment gun 'rights', a classic example of the horrible decisions government bureaucracies can make, our relations with Mexico, and most of all - money. Many 1000's of important documents have been produced, AG Holder and others have testified giving much important information, some ATF persons fired or forced into retirement

But all that does not satisfy a number of Republicans who are seeking any and all weaknesses to explode upon the Obama administration. I also think they need a distraction issue, to divert attention from their weaknesses and lack of policies rather than offer something of substance.

While some fears exist that President Obama is trying to cover his and Holder's asses, some of the remaining information Republicans want disclosed is not legal to disclose, like Grand Jury testimony. Discussions by the AG and the President may be privileged for sound reasons. Some further information could ruin ongoing prosecutions as well as put LEO's, ATF agents and Mexican officials all at risk of death. Those may be factors that make it right to use the extreme of using Executive Privilege.
 
Okie
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting slider (Reply 16):
I agree with you about the corruption part. This goes FAR beyond anything Tricky Dick did. As I said before, there was no body count in Watergate.

Uni-vision and Calderon were on Obama early on and Obama denied any knowledge. Trying to use executive privilege would prove that not to be true and indicates White house involvement.

Considering the number of deaths involved in Mexico attributed to the Mexican Cartels that were being armed by the present administration, I would suspect some serious backlash coming from Mexico and the Mexican-American community as well. They were somewhat vocal early on.

The comment I heard was that from what is known at this point, Fast and Furious is going to make Watergate look like Motel 6.

Okie
 
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:01 am

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
Tell the family of Brian Terry that.

I thought the GOP and NRA standard line was "guns don't kill people, people kill people"?

Yet here guns kill people?

The GOP are cynically and hypocritically using Terry's murder for political muck raking instead of using it rally support around fixing the incredibly lax gun laws in the US in general and Texas in particular that responsible for literally millions of deaths.

DOJ has admitted the operation was a huge mistake, and the principals involved have either resigned or have been reassigned.

Last night the GOP were given a chance to back off but that's not what they are after, they simply are after political points.

Today they got their pure party line vote on their contempt motion, but in the end it will amount to nothing.
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Stabilator
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
but not the self-supporting black guy with the (D) behind his name.

Why are liberals always bringing up race in political threads? Stop race baiting. It's not cute, and derails the thread.
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fr8mech
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:21 am

So, Obama is using executive privelege. It's been used in the past and it will be used in the future.

But, by using executive he is admitting that he knew about Fast and Furious, yet the administration has denied it in the past.

%u201CThe President has made clear that he did not know about or authorize this operation,%u201D

http://news.yahoo.com/white-house-de...a-knew-fast-furious-142542490.html

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 10):
Almost 1,300 pages of documents released and still Eric Holder get the eneditable contempt of congress.

Actually, I believe over 7,600 documents were provided, some completely redacted...over 100,000 were requested. Can't find a link referring to either number. But, I'll look around tomorrow.

For the legal types here:
Under the concept of privlege, as soon as documents were produced, wasn't the privilege waived? Also, since President Obama has repeatedly denied knowledge of Fast and Furious, can he exert executive privilege?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 8):
Sorry to stray off topic, but is there really ANY reason to possess an assault weapon unless you're serving in the military or part of a SWAT team?

Start a new topic and we'll talk.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Mir
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:02 am

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 25):
Also, since President Obama has repeatedly denied knowledge of Fast and Furious, can he exert executive privilege?

He can in order to grant members of his Administration immunity from the requirement to testify before Congress. The privilege extends to the executive branch, not just the president. The courts can overrule that, of course, and say that the privilege isn't valid in a certain circumstance, and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw this go to the judiciary for review.

-Mir
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Stabilator
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 27):

I think you misquoted. That was Fr8mech's post, not mine.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 27):
He can in order to grant members of his Administration immunity from the requirement to testify before Congress. The privilege extends to the executive branch, not just the president. The courts can overrule that, of course, and say that the privilege isn't valid in a certain circumstance, and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw this go to the judiciary for review.

The precedent quoted in the OP is pretty clear - if this goes to the USSC this immunity will be slapped down. But the point of this exercise is to push it off until after this election. If it comes out in 2013 or later that Holder or even Obama personally gave the go-ahead for Fast & Furious, and then lied through their teeth about it, it won't matter. Lying to Congress under oath is no longer an impeachable crime (since Clinton), and lying to the public doesn't matter if you no longer have to face reelection.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 28):
I think you misquoted. That was Fr8mech's post, not mine.

Well, looks like I picked a whole bouquet of oopsy-daisies....   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
But the point of this exercise is to push it off until after this election.

Obama would hardly be the first politician (or person) in the history of this country to try and use the timing of the legal system to his advantage.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
Lying to Congress under oath is no longer an impeachable crime (since Clinton)

The fact that Clinton wasn't convicted doesn't mean that Obama couldn't go through the same process with a different result.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
lying to the public doesn't matter if you no longer have to face reelection.

It'll screw your party over, that's for sure. I strongly believe Al Gore wins in 2000 were it not for Clinton's shenanigans. That should be enough to give any two-term president pause if they're thinking about doing crazy stuff.

-Mir
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
Obama would hardly be the first politician (or person) in the history of this country to try and use the timing of the legal system to his advantage.

True, but rarely so blatantly. Hopefully the public will remember this in November (even though the MSM is desperately trying to downplay this).

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
The fact that Clinton wasn't convicted doesn't mean that Obama couldn't go through the same process with a different result.

Not necessarily true. Clinton got let off because lying about a blowjob - well, big deal. This is different. This is about the executive branch acting with gross incompetence, and trying to use executive privilege to hide it.

Obama and the rest of the administration has denied any knowledge of the gun running operation. Either Executive Privilege does not apply or they are directly involved and lied about it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
It'll screw your party over, that's for sure. I strongly believe Al Gore wins in 2000 were it not for Clinton's shenanigans. That should be enough to give any two-term president pause if they're thinking about doing crazy stuff.

You forget about the financial meltdown in 2000, when the NASDAQ lost two thirds of its value.and the Dow lost one third right before the election.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Not necessarily true. Clinton got let off because lying about a blowjob - well, big deal. This is different.

If it's different, then that proves my point.

-Mir
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seb146
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:48 am

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 25):
Why are liberals always bringing up race in political threads?

Because there was not this much hate from the right when the Democrat was white. Especially when the black guy's policies are in line with St. Ronnie Reagan.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
We led a coalition

Two countries is a coalition? Since when??

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
You forget about the financial meltdown in 2000, when the NASDAQ lost two thirds of its value.and the Dow lost one third right before the election.

How much value did people lose on their homes? Did banks have auto signers for mortgages?

Back to the *real* topic:

Since two countries are involved and possibly CIA agents who will be and have been undercover, Executive Privilege, in this case, probably is worth it.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:16 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):
Two countries is a coalition? Since when??

Here you go: all of the countries that entered Iraq in 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:58 am

'We're the Most Transparent and Ethical Administration in U.S. History'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXWTdTnhebs

Yeah right.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
You forget about the financial meltdown in 2000, when the NASDAQ lost two thirds of its value.and the Dow lost one third right before the election.

No , the Dow didn't.
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%...s=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

The Nasdaq was toast, but not 2/3 rds down. but I think we can all agree that was one big bubble of tech falling over.
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%...s=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
This is HUGE. Grassley nails it—in essence, if Obama is trying to cover for Holder by inappropriately applying EP, then he’s going to get spanked. But if he DOES know about it—and crimes were committed—Obama becomes instantly culpable.

No Grassley did not nail it. Obama can exert executive priveledge for the executive branch. Holder requested it in a letter.

Issa was briefed by Holder, but Issa wants documents to try and prove that the Administration knew and did something wrong. Mostly in the aftermatch of all the events. The incident that triggered this investigation occurred on Dec 14,2010 when Brian Terry was killed during a fire fight. the documents Issa wants are during the aftermath when everyone was trying to figure out what exactly happened.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/20/politics/holder-contempt/index.html

"Issa's committee is specifically seeking documents that show why the Department of Justice decided to withdraw as inaccurate a February 2011 letter sent to Congress that said top officials had only recently learned about Fast and Furious"


Basically the documents Issa wants are to know why the DOJ redacted a document that said top officials didn't know. The DOJ already claimed this was inaccurate.

This is nothing but a political which hunt for politics. They are using big words like contempt and honor to basically air the dirty laundry of documents that probably show a lot of confusion and scrambling to gather info in the aftermath of the incovering of such a poorly run operation.


I think Obama and Holder are correct to invoke Executive Privelidge here, and I think the GOP is really dumb to press the point, as they may be in power in the future and face the same situation.





Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
I thought the GOP and NRA standard line was "guns don't kill people, people kill people"?

Yet here guns kill people?

  

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):

Don't push too hard for what will only be the "latest" program when you have the risks of previous programs becoming public.

  

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
Tell the family of Brian Terry that.

Tell the family of Jaime Zapata that.

Tell the families of the hundreds of innocent Mexican citizens who've been killed as a result of illegal gun-running.

Don't make this into something it isn't. This isn't about the program itself. Which everyone has admitted was flawed.
This is about Issa going through a which hunt to see how much was known and how high up.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:20 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
Ok This is what I tell everybody when they asked why we went to Iraq:

We led a coalition and was given a UN Security Council Resolution which basically TOLD us to go to Iraq. We just stayed there a little too long because of the insurgency.

   LOL. For starters I recommend you google 'curveball'.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
But all that does not satisfy a number of Republicans who are seeking any and all weaknesses to explode upon the Obama administration. I also think they need a distraction issue, to divert attention from their weaknesses and lack of policies rather than offer something of substance.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
The GOP are cynically and hypocritically using Terry's murder for political muck raking instead of using it rally support around fixing the incredibly lax gun laws in the US in general and Texas in particular that responsible for literally millions of deaths.

I think the republicans also have a wider agenda of trying to get rid of the ATF and its associated regulations alltogether. To them it is probably just another example of 'big government'.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 34):
Here you go: all of the countries that entered Iraq in 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-N..._Iraq

That includes humanitarian assistance/peacekeepers which hardly count as those who invaded.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
The 'Fast & Furious' program was a volatile mix of the drug wars, our obscene demand for drugs, our absolutism as to 2nd Amendment gun 'rights', a classic example of the horrible decisions government bureaucracies can make, our relations with Mexico, and most of all - money.

Excellent summary. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

It does point out the issue that the right needs to be careful of - possible blowback because of their pro-gun stance.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
I also think they need a distraction issue, to divert attention from their weaknesses and lack of policies rather than offer something of substance.

Yes, it's a pure old fashioned witch hunt.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):

While some fears exist that President Obama is trying to cover his and Holder's asses

I'm sure that's a large part of what is going on. I'm not sure why it even matters. No one is supporting the action. Heads have rolled. At some point both Holder and Obama were in the loop, and of course neither wants to be covered in muck, but to me that's a given, even if it fully or partially contradicts public statements.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
some of the remaining information Republicans want disclosed is not legal to disclose, like Grand Jury testimony.

Good point.

Quoting okie (Reply 23):
Considering the number of deaths involved in Mexico attributed to the Mexican Cartels that were being armed by the present administration

So you are saying they'd be unarmed if it weren't for the present administration?

Or those assault rifles would be used for rodent control on a Texas ranch instead?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 26):
But, by using executive he is admitting that he knew about Fast and Furious, yet the administration has denied it in the past.

And Clinton said he didn't get a blow job, yet he did get a blow job, and the world didn't end.

Meanwhile, things the GOP say they care about, like jobs and government spending, get pushed to the back pages.

But heck, let's indulge ourselves with a witch hunt, it's not like anything else important is going on...
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Sort of like the previous administration when they had similar programs? I don't think the GOP really wants the public to know the full range of similar programs that were run under Bush/Cheney.

Hey, let's have that talk. How about Operation Wide Receiver.... And BTW, all such weapons were accounted for there. And no one was murdered with them.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 36):
This is nothing but a political which hunt for politics.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 36):
Don't make this into something it isn't.

It's a left end run (no pun intended) at the Second Amendment and perhaps the biggest example of the corruption in the most corrupt administration ever. And we have dead bodies.
 
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 39):
It's a left end run (no pun intended) at the Second Amendment and perhaps the biggest example of the corruption in the most corrupt administration ever. And we have dead bodies.

they are not investigating the Dead bodies. the Contempt is over documents from after the operation ended. talk about corrupt. Issa stands at the top of the list.
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seb146
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 39):
It's a left end run (no pun intended) at the Second Amendment

So, I can't go buy a gun anymore?

BTW: the right promised when they were elected in 2010 they would give everyone jobs and reduce the deficit. Yet, there is still massive unemployment and the deficit is still out of control. And this is the priority?
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 39):
And we have dead bodies.

Yes, the estimate is around 50,000 over the last decade.

It'd be nice if Congress got on with doing something about that, instead of fixating on the one body they hope to tie to Eric Holder and/or Barack Obama, but then they'd actually be doing their job.
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 38):
But heck, let's indulge ourselves with a witch hunt, it's not like anything else important is going on...


You mean like 'the War on Women'?

Are we allowed only go on Obama Administration sponsored witch hunts?

Hell, the idiot on MSNBC insinuated that this was a racial issue.

MSNBC host Christopher Matthews asked former San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown whether House Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa’s treatment of Holder was “ethnic.”

Brown quickly said it was, prompting Matthews to comment that some Republican House members “talk down to the president and his friends.”


http://www.whitehousedossier.com/201...20/race-threatens-weapon-campaign/

The issue here is that BATF ran an operation that allowed firearms, purchased by straw buyers, to move into Mexico. The Mexican authorities were never informed. The BATF lost track of the firearms soon after they went across the border. At least one BATF agent was murdered by someone using one of those firearms, not to mention or diminish the Mexicans that may have been murdered by people using those very weapons.

There are indications that the highest levels of the DoJ were in the loop and approved of the operation from inception to dissolution. The Holder DoJ has refused to release all the documents that could prove or disprove any connection between the DoJ and the BATF (as it pertains to the operation in question).

This investigation has been going on for months and months and months. Only now, that Rep. Issa has decided to bring contempt charges against Holder has the media decided it was time to pay attention. But, to give credit where credit is due...it was CBS that broke this story...in February 2011

Some random links that cover some of the story:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/04/cb...her-over-fast-and-furious-scandal/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/geoffre...gs-cbss-fast-and-furious-coverage-

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew...t-furious-abc-nbc-place-heads-sand
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Ken777
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 26):
But, by using executive he is admitting that he knew about Fast and Furious, yet the administration has denied it in the past.

Using EP is not an "admission" of anything. President use EP because there is an on-going battle between the Legislative & Executives. Lord Reagan, or is it Sir Ronny, used it, What really, really bad things does that say about him?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 26):
I believe over 7,600 documents were provided, some completely redacted

That is over twice the size of the Health Reform Bill. How much is really needed?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 26):
over 100,000 were requested.

And you think the GOPpies are going to read those 100,000 pages before the election? Right.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 26):
Under the concept of privlege, as soon as documents were produced, wasn't the privilege waived?

For the page released. Redacted portions will either be classified above the Committee's Need To Know, or it can be protected by EP.

Quoting Mir (Reply 27):
and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw this go to the judiciary for review.

I actually don't care, with the exception of the protection of the people in the field who have done nothing wrong.

But when looking at this type of program we ned to look at ALL of the programs, including under W.

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
I strongly believe Al Gore wins in 2000 were it not for Clinton's shenanigan

Gore won the popular vote, but American's votes don't count in a Presidential Election - only the Electoral College counts. Clearly a bad system that needs to be changed.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
This is about the executive branch acting with gross incompetence, and trying to use executive privilege to hide it.

Would you say the exact same thing for the Republican Presidents use of EP?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
You forget about the financial meltdown in 2000, when the NASDAQ lost two thirds of its value.and the Dow lost one third right before the election.

Gore still won the vote. Bush got fewer votes than Gore. Only an antiquated system took the American Vote away.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
It'd be nice if Congress got on with doing something about that

Not going to happen. The GOP has an erection over this issue and it is lasting over 4 hours.
 
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
Using EP is not an "admission" of anything. President use EP because there is an on-going battle between the Legislative & Executives. Lord Reagan, or is it Sir Ronny, used it, What really, really bad things does that say about him?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, Ken. I just wondered why exert the privlege if you're not involved...The White House has denied involvement.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
That is over twice the size of the Health Reform Bill. How much is really needed?

As many documents as are required to find out what, if anything, was done illegally.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
You mean like 'the War on Women'?

Are we allowed only go on Obama Administration sponsored witch hunts?

What are you on about now? How is the fact that a bunch of men were having hearings to decide womens' health issues anything other than a fact?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
Hell, the idiot on MSNBC insinuated that this was a racial issue.

So you equate things mediots are doing to pander to their audience to things congressmen are doing that have nothing to do with their stated focus on improving the economy?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
The issue here is that BATF...

Yes, that's all been admitted to, there's no controversy about it, other than the GOP like to keep saying the same thing over and over to try to score political points.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, Ken. I just wondered why exert the privlege if you're not involved...The White House has denied involvement.

You know the answer - exerting EP is not an admission, it's an attempt to get the Congress to focus on things that of more importance. The Administration admits F&F was a total screw up. What's going on now is nothing more than political theater.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
As many documents as are required to find out what, if anything, was done illegally.

Which of course presumes there was something done illegally, otherwise there is no such document, and it's all a waste of time. Where have I heard that?
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 37):
LOL. For starters I recommend you google 'curveball'.

Either way we went in, we initially had a lot of public support. I saw direct parallels to the Libyan war last year except there was more direct action taken by the Libyans in comparison.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
You mean like 'the War on Women'?

Thank you liberal media for this "war."   
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting slider (Reply 39):
Hey, let's have that talk. How about Operation Wide Receiver.... And BTW, all such weapons were accounted for there. And no one was murdered with them.

And how many convictions did Wide Reviever result in?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 47):
Either way we went in, we initially had a lot of public support.

Yes but most of that public support was based on distortions and lies, such as that there was a strong relationship between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda for the purpose of attacking the USA/west.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/04/05/AR2007040502263.html

If you look at Bush's speeches, he always insisted that there IS WMDs in Iraq, not that there is LIKELY to be. Big difference, and I don't think I need to point out how many WMDs it turned out there actually were. Getting back to public support, just think about how Bush burned those who didn't support his war. A lot of anti-french sentiment was spread in the USA after Jaques Chirac opposed the US at the UN and refused to join in with the war. The 'Freedom Fries' happenings were a small part of it.
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Mir
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RE: Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious

Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 39):
How about Operation Wide Receiver.... And BTW, all such weapons were accounted for there. And no one was murdered with them.

Actually, we lost track of most of those weapons as well. And they may have well been used to murder people. In fact, I'd say it's likely.

-Mir
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