seb146
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Voters: What Would Happen If...

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:41 pm

What would happen if every voter in November cast a ballot for anyone other than those with a (D) or (R) behind their name? No votes for Obama, no votes for Romney, no votes for Issa, no votes for Feinstein and so on. Could we do it? What would happen?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting seb146 (Thread starter):
What would happen if every voter in November cast a ballot for anyone other than those with a (D) or (R) behind their name? No votes for Obama, no votes for Romney, no votes for Issa, no votes for Feinstein and so on. Could we do it? What would happen?

The most crooked side would win.

Back in 1992, my office colleague and I made an agreement. We were both Americans living overseas, he was going to vote for Clinton, I was going to vote for Bush. As we had not yet registered to vote absentee, he and I agreed that since our votes were going to cancel each other out, neither of us would vote that year. We shook hands on it.

Well I learned later that he did vote after all. He had a good laugh about it - thought it was funny as hell.

About a year later I became his manager and I ended up firing him. One of the reasons I gave was that I couldn't trust him to keep his word.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

I have to wonder who's more crooked than the other in this scenario...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Tugger
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 2):
I have to wonder who's more crooked than the other in this scenario...

Well that's easy, whoever wins! It is obvious that some seem to really think that.

Tugg
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sw733
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:38 pm

SW733 for President! Write it in!

Granted:

1) I am not 35, and
2) I was not born in the USA

But pshht, who needs the Constitution!  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
About a year later I became his manager and I ended up firing him. One of the reasons I gave was that I couldn't trust him to keep his word.

  
 
seb146
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:55 am

I was foolish to think we could have a civil debate about kicking the bums out. It is the same old tune of "Democrats are stupid, right-wing is the only choice" brought to you by FOX "news".
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 2):
I have to wonder who's more crooked than the other in this scenario...

The voting incident was not the the main reason - it was simply indicative of an overall dishonesty about him. He got into a lot of hot water in the company for shady side-deals, and at home for cheating on his wife, marrying his mistress and then cheating on her.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):

I was foolish to think we could have a civil debate about kicking the bums out. It is the same old tune of "Democrats are stupid, right-wing is the only choice" brought to you by FOX "news".

Who's being uncivil? I'm just pointing out that if you and I (since we are similarly on polar opposites) were to promise each other not to vote for Obama in your case, and Romney in mine, it would be naive for either of us to believe it. If I really thought you'd live up to the bargain, I might simply say. "Cool, I just cost Obama a vote", and then go vote. That's how my old colleague thought.

I would also point out that something along these lines has already happened within the GOP - the Tea Party managed to get a number of long-standing GOP politicians booted out in the primaries, such as Dick Lugar. I think your "kicking the bums out" message is a good one, but will only gain any traction in primaries. When it comes to the general election, is simply will not believe that you not vote for the (D) on your ballot, simply because the most likely outcome would be that (R) would win - and as mad as you are at the Dems (if you are at all), you definately don't want that, do you?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
I was foolish to think we could have a civil debate

Allow me to make an attempt to do so in a non-partisan manner.

Quoting seb146 (Thread starter):
What would happen if every voter in November cast a ballot for anyone other than those with a (D) or (R) behind their name? No votes for Obama, no votes for Romney, no votes for Issa, no votes for Feinstein and so on. Could we do it? What would happen?

Since many candidates and many offices (Fed, state and local) will be listed on the ballots. The results could theoretically vary.

In the case of the smaller offices (Rep., Senator, Governor, etc.), if there's another single candidate listed on every ballot for entire jurisdiction of said-office; then the chances of that person winning that election is more plausible. It's worth noting that several Independents/3rd Party candidates who have won elections include Jesse "The Body" Ventura (Governor of Minnesota 1998), Lowell Weicker (Governor of Connecticut 1990), Bernie Sanders (US Senator representing Vermont, first elected in 2006, seeking re-election in 2012) & Joe Liebermann (US Senator representing Connecticut, first elected as an Independent in 2006, seeking re-election in 2012). Granted, the latter two (Sen. Sanders & Sen. Liebermann) despite being Independents mostly caucus w/the Democrats.

However, having one's name on every ballot through the office's jurisdiction is only half the battle. The candidate still has to prove to the voters that he/she is more than just a I'm not the other candidate. They still would have to let the public what their plan/vision will be if elected and that their candidacy is not necessarily a plant from one of the two major parties (example: many NJ voters believed that Chris Daggett was a plant to help then-incumbent Governor Jon Corzine win re-election in 2009; which obviously did not happen). Even that's not necessarily a guaranteed win.

The last 2 gubernatorial races in Massachusetts were 3-way races in which the very presence of the 3rd party/independent candidates (Christy Mihos in 2006, Tim Cahill in 2010) translated to a Deval Patrick (a Democrat) win and re-election respectively. Most that voted for Mihos & Cahill would've likely voted for the GOP candidates had they not been on the ballots.

On the Presidential level; it's likely too late for a nationwide, credible 3rd party/Independent to get on the ballot for this year's election. While there are other minor/Independent party candidates on the ballot; many of them may not be listed on every state ballot. So theoretically a 3rd party winner in one state may not be the same individual as a 3rd party winner in another state. Compound that by all 50 states along with the 270 minimum required electoral votes (like it or not, it's here to stay for the 2012 elections) and we could easily see the decision to elect a President ultimately decided by the House of Representatives. In short, either President Obama or Mitt Romney would still be declared a winner.

In recent history, Ross Perot has been the only Independent/3rd party candidate to actually trigger a "snap-shot" poll during the '92 campaign that if the election were held when that poll was taken (June); his presence in the race would deny both President Bush (41) and then-Governor Bill Clinton of the needed 270 electoral votes. Perot's reaction to that poll (he dropped out the the race but later re-entered roughly 2 months later), in retrospect, was the biggest mistake he made in his political campaign/career. Had he continued his campaign in full force; then a vote for Perot would've indeed been viewed as a vote for Perot rather than (as most believed) a spoiler vote for Clinton.

In 2000, the Florida recount issue aside; many viewed Green Party Ralph Nader's presence in the race as a spolier vote for Bush 43 and Reform Party Pat Buchanan's presence as a spoiler vote for Gore. That's probably one case where one had two different 3rd party spoilers essentially cancelling each other out.

Nonetheless, if a 3rd party/Independent wants to actually get elected President in 2016; they pretty much have to start laying the groundwork for a campaign this year.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 2):
I have to wonder who's more crooked than the other in this scenario...

The voting incident was not the the main reason - it was simply indicative of an overall dishonesty about him. He got into a lot of hot water in the company for shady side-deals, and at home for cheating on his wife, marrying his mistress and then cheating on her.

Now that clears things up...for a moment I thought you went into a superior position and used it to your advantage (kinda like having a last laugh moment).
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
Now that clears things up...for a moment I thought you went into a superior position and used it to your advantage (kinda like having a last laugh moment).

I can be quite an a$$hole, but I wouldn't go that far.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
GST
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

Back in 1992, my office colleague and I made an agreement. We were both Americans living overseas, he was going to vote for Clinton, I was going to vote for Bush. As we had not yet registered to vote absentee, he and I agreed that since our votes were going to cancel each other out, neither of us would vote that year. We shook hands on it.

Assuming for a moment that he didn't cheat you, surely one candidate would still lose out more than the other unless you're registering to vote in the same state? Correct me if I am wrong, but in the electoral college system a vote in one state would surely be worth a different fraction of a delegate than one in another, no? It is admittedly several years since I studied the US electoral system so I may be well out.
 
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 10):
Assuming for a moment that he didn't cheat you, surely one candidate would still lose out more than the other unless you're registering to vote in the same state? Correct me if I am wrong, but in the electoral college system a vote in one state would surely be worth a different fraction of a delegate than one in another, no? It is admittedly several years since I studied the US electoral system so I may be well out.

That's true. My vote would have been registered in Texas and his in Massachusetts, so it really would not have changed anything - TX went GOP and Mass went Dem anyway. But it was the principle of the thing.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:27 pm

I'm most likely gonna vote 3rd party. I think Gary Johnson has the best chance of any 3rd party candidate (still not very good) but I like him and most of his positions. I consider myself more libertarian than anything else. If anything, I'd hope a 3rd party would light a fire under both the Democrats and Republicans and straighten them out...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
bhill
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:27 pm

It would not matter as Presidents are not decided by the popular vote...   Not sure how the Electors would abide....
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PHLBOS
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:57 pm

One thing to consider. Assuming that a 3rd Party/Independent indeed got elected; Congress, regardless of which party has the majority power, could still conceivably shut off/stall/halt a President's agenda.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Charles79
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting seb146 (Thread starter):
Could we do it?

Not likely but it's an interesting hypothetical question.

Quoting seb146 (Thread starter):
What would happen?

Since we still have to do it through an electoral college I'm sure that whichever independent / third party candidate that has the most money (thus the most ads/most name recognition) would win. Would be an opportunity for a celebrity/sports figure (perhaps also a likable self-made billionaire).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
at home for cheating on his wife, marrying his mistress and then cheating on her.

Wait, marrying once, cheating, divorcing, marrying again, cheating again? Slow learner...should stay single.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 14):
Assuming that a 3rd Party/Independent indeed got elected; Congress, regardless of which party has the majority power, could still conceivably shut off/stall/halt a President's agenda.

I think that would be the biggest challenge. Who knows, you may end up with an independent President who is willing to work with whichever side wins Congress but if you end up in a situation where, say, a former D or R politician left the party to run for POTUS, then either he/she will have to contend with his/her former opposing party or a bitter former party. Either way not a pretty scenario.
 
seb146
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:39 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
Allow me to make an attempt to do so in a non-partisan manner.

THANK YOU!! Very well put.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
I can be quite an a$$hole, but I wouldn't go that far.

But, you fired someone for casting a ballot.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 15):
I'm sure that whichever independent / third party candidate that has the most money (thus the most ads/most name recognition) would win.

Schwartzenegger for governer of California comes to mind. Sad, but good point. In one senario, we could have Oprah as president. YIKES!!
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GST
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:57 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
I can be quite an a$$hole, but I wouldn't go that far.

But, you fired someone for casting a ballot.

Oh come now, he made quite clear that this was one of a long line of things making the person untrustworthy. If realities dictate that someone has to go, it should not be a surprise that the someone is a person who has repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be untrustworthy.
 
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
About a year later I became his manager and I ended up firing him. One of the reasons I gave was that I couldn't trust him to keep his word.

You fired him for something in the past & not related to the job on hand....that makes you a bad manager.....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):

You fired him for something in the past & not related to the job on hand....that makes you a bad manager.....

Please read the follow-up:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
The voting incident was not the the main reason - it was simply indicative of an overall dishonesty about him. He got into a lot of hot water in the company for shady side-deals, and at home for cheating on his wife, marrying his mistress and then cheating on her.

We were bonded employees, responsible for and often carrying millions of dollars worth of merchandise. As time passed he was known for more and more odd behavior and simply not doing what he said he would do.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Voters: What Would Happen If...

Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
Schwartzenegger for governer of California comes to mind.

Ineligible, he was born in Austria.

Per Article II of the Constitution:
http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A2Sec1.html

Exerpt:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States
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