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AA7295
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Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:57 am

I was reading an article today in the newspaper about the decline of circumcision in the United States. It mentioned that Israel and the United States were the two major countries where circumcision is largely performed.

There was this segment that said that some doctors had recommended it, whilst others have not.

What is your stance on the issue?

As an uncircumcised male, I am totally for it. I hate being uncircumcised and am seriously considering having the chop. I find it both aesthetically unattractive not to mention I got Ballanitis and a UTI (both in Thailand!) and the doctor said my chances of getting both would have been reduced had I been circumcised.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:07 am

If any adult male consents to have this procedure performed on their own penis that is their right to do so. In rare cases there are valid medical reasons for performing this operation.

Performing this procedure without benefit of anaesthetic on infants who have no say in the matter, whether done on the basis of dubious science, or on grounds of superstition/religion, or 'because I had it done to me, so I want it done to my son' is, in my opinion completely unwarranted and, again, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse.

BTW, I give this thread a maximum of 24 hours before the mods need to close it, because people who have a belief one way or the other on this issue tend to feel very strongly about it, and it is not a subject where you can agree to meet in the middle.

[Edited 2012-06-24 00:10:16]
 
kingairta
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:11 am

What do the women prefer  

I was circumsised as a baby and have hae no complaints. Both my sons were snipped as well.

As for pros ane cons I don't think one will ever outweigh the other.

But I think the ladies prefer a cut over an uncut.
 
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mariner
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:15 am

It was done to my when I was a week old - and obviously without my consent.

I think that lack of my consent is quite wrong - it's my body, I should decide. I would much rather NOT be circumcised.

mariner
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AA7295
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:16 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
Performing this procedure without benefit of anaesthetic on infants who have no say in the matter, whether done on the basis of dubious science, or on grounds of superstition/religion, or 'because I had it done to me, so I want it done to my son' is, in my opinion completely unwarranted and, again, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse.

I totally respect your view. But that is also like saying that baptizing someone in a particular religion prohibits their choice as an infant. Or sending your child to a particular school (religion-affiliated school, all boys or all girls school) restricts their choices as well.

As a parent, you make choice that you deem the best for your child at that point in time. You are the child's source of life, so you inherently have the right to make choices on their behalf until they reach such an age where they can make decisions effectively.

In my situation I wish my parents had circumcised me as a baby because now, if I do get a circumcision, I have to go to hospital and have surgery and that is at least 3 days out of action (not to mention the other type of action!).

The very fact of saying "wait until the kids are older to decide if they want a circumcision" is a bit silly because no one wants non-essential surgery. But someone may want to be circumcised (I'm not alone in this matter!)

[Edited 2012-06-24 00:17:56]
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:33 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
I totally respect your view. But that is also like saying that baptizing someone in a particular religion prohibits their choice as an infant. Or sending your child to a particular school (religion-affiliated school, all boys or all girls school) restricts their choices as well.

Children can grow up and decide that they want to follow a different religion, or no religion at all. They cannot decide to grow back severed body parts. Circumcision is an irreversible physical change to a child's natural body. I have always found the religious arguments for it very odd, if we are made in god's image then presumably the foreskin is part of that image.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:38 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
The very fact of saying "wait until the kids are older to decide if they want a circumcision" is a bit silly because no one wants non-essential surgery.

OK, you have lost me there, if 'no one wants non-essential surgery' why would they want to do it to someone else?
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:48 am

Ugh! Circumcision is a dreadful practice and any body mutilation, unless it is life threatening, should be a decision left to adults. As a gay man I've always found uncircumcised penises off-putting -- that foreskin is there for a reason!
 
AA7295
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:50 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 6):

OK, you have lost me there, if 'no one wants non-essential surgery' why would they want to do it to someone else?

I thought I was unclear. The point is the surgery is pretty intense and is ALOT easier when done as a baby. The very fact of waiting until they are an adult to decide if they want to be circumcised is going to cause a lot of people to remain uncircumcised purely for the fact that they don't want surgery. This is despite that SOME people may still want to be circumcised.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:06 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 8):
The point is the surgery is pretty intense and is ALOT easier when done as a baby. The very fact of waiting until they are an adult to decide if they want to be circumcised is going to cause a lot of people to remain uncircumcised purely for the fact that they don't want surgery. This is despite that SOME people may still want to be circumcised.

If you're talking about a religious or lifestyle choice here I don't see why anyone should have it foisted upon them when they're too young to decide for themselves. I've known a couple of adults who have been circumcised for medical reasons and, while it was initially sore and uncomfortable for a while, was nothing they couldn't handle. I think that would be par for a lot of surgery, so it should be no big deal.
 
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mariner
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
The very fact of saying "wait until the kids are older to decide if they want a circumcision" is a bit silly because no one wants non-essential surgery. But someone may want to be circumcised (I'm not alone in this matter!)

Why is it silly? I know adult men who want to be circumcised and that's their choice, they can have it done.

But I don't want to be circumcised and I haven no choice because it;s already been done - without my consent.

mariner
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flipdewaf
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:42 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
But that is also like saying that baptizing someone in a particular religion prohibits their choice as an infant. Or sending your child to a particular school (religion-affiliated school, all boys or all girls school) restricts their choices as well.

Thats because it does and is also wrong, children are already good at having made up friends they don't need extra put on them by adults.

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ba6590
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:55 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
Performing this procedure without benefit of anaesthetic on infants who have no say in the matter, whether done on the basis of dubious science, or on grounds of superstition/religion, or 'because I had it done to me, so I want it done to my son' is, in my opinion completely unwarranted and, again, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse.

Completely agree   

Interestingly enough, heard this on the BBC the other day:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-18549968

There maybe benifits after all, Still wouln't want to have it done as a child without my consent though.
 
TSS
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:07 am

I'm against it, for the same reason as Kiwiandrew:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
Performing this procedure without benefit of anaesthetic on infants who have no say in the matter, whether done on the basis of dubious science, or on grounds of superstition/religion, or 'because I had it done to me, so I want it done to my son' is, in my opinion completely unwarranted and, again, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse.
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na
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:50 am

I dont see a sense in it. And I think its mutilation to do it to infants.
 
GST
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
I have always found the religious arguments for it very odd, if we are made in god's image then presumably the foreskin is part of that image.

Indeed. As an atheist I find many aspects of religion puzzling, but this one it, to me, one of the strangest.

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 8):


Quoting kiwiandrew,reply=6:


OK, you have lost me there, if 'no one wants non-essential surgery' why would they want to do it to someone else?

I thought I was unclear. The point is the surgery is pretty intense and is ALOT easier when done as a baby. The very fact of waiting until they are an adult to decide if they want to be circumcised is going to cause a lot of people to remain uncircumcised purely for the fact that they don't want surgery. This is despite that SOME people may still want to be circumcised.

I don't really care if it is easier as a baby than an adult, it is a tolerable procedure even for adults and so I see no reason to carry it out on anyone too young to consent to it. Much like tattoos and piercings, male circumcision is an aesthetic choice, even for religious reasons. Unlike most piercings it is also irreversible (well you can over the course of months stretch the skin back to full length but it is still physiologically different to an uncircumcised foreskin as far as I am aware). I am perfectly fine with people deciding that they wish their genitals to look a certain way and opting to have surgery to make it so, be it for pure aesthetics or as a ritual to confirm their religious devotion.

I do not agree with people having an unecessary procedure done to them before an age at which they can consent, for religions or other reasons. We have enough people, male and female, who feel uncomfortable with their own bodies without artificially adding to the number who were circumcised babies and don't want to be, thus who may have an artificial reason to resent their bodies (or even their parents a little).

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
Ugh! Circumcision is a dreadful practice and any body mutilation, unless it is life threatening, should be a decision left to adults. As a gay man I've always found uncircumcised penises off-putting -- that foreskin is there for a reason!

Indeed there are reasons why foreskins are a disadvantage, some STIs for example, so explaining this in sex education classes to teenagers and allowing them to choose for themselves with the best medical information, and their own religious/aesthetic opinions would surely be a better way to operate IMO.

I do not know the evolutionary reason for foreskins existence, they may well be a throwback that now serve little/no purpose to homo sapiens whilst increasing the risk of some specific diseases and conditions, but I don't see any drive for babies to have their tonsils removed.
 
smittyone
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:42 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 15):
but I don't see any drive for babies to have their tonsils removed.

Nor the appendix...and that damned thing will kill you if you're not careful.
 
Superfly
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:55 pm

Stop circumcision!
It is a brutal, barbaric practice and should NOT be allowed for infants that have no say in the matter.
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RussianJet
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:22 pm

If it's for valid, essential medical reasons then fine - do the necessary. If not, then do not unnecessarily chop bits of someone's body off. If people want it done that badly for other reasons when they're old enough to decide then hey, they can choose to do it then.
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seb146
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
I have always found the religious arguments for it very odd, if we are made in god's image then presumably the foreskin is part of that image.

That is something I have never understood either. I was circumsised when I was newborn. I had no say in the decision about altering my body. Because my parents decided it was the Christian thing to do, to alter God's image, they decided. That was the only reason for that medical procedure.

In short: I am against it.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:00 pm

I am thankful that I was not circumcised, even though when I was born the doctor insisted on it. I'm glad my parents are not so religious to have their beliefs thrust onto me (heck, I was baptized when I was 12 years old and it was my decision).


Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
But that is also like saying that baptizing someone in a particular religion prohibits their choice as an infant. Or sending your child to a particular school (religion-affiliated school, all boys or all girls school) restricts their choices as well.

I believe the person should be free to decide. I was sent to a Catholic school. By 9th grade I had considered going to a public school (or a non-religious school). The first 8 years of grade education were the worst. Had I been allowed later on to select the school I wanted to go to, perhaps grade school might have been more enjoyable.

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
As a parent, you make choice that you deem the best for your child at that point in time. You are the child's source of life, so you inherently have the right to make choices on their behalf until they reach such an age where they can make decisions effectively.

Ah, but here's the problem. You can choose a religion for your kid, you can choose a school for your kid. In the future, the child can change without a problem. Once you're circumcised, there's no going back.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Acheron
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting KingairTA (Reply 2):
But I think the ladies prefer a cut over an uncut.

Mostly in the US and thats because it has been done for so long, that most women in the US haven't seen an uncut penis in their lives.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
Performing this procedure without benefit of anaesthetic on infants who have no say in the matter, whether done on the basis of dubious science, or on grounds of superstition/religion, or 'because I had it done to me, so I want it done to my son' is, in my opinion completely unwarranted and, again, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse.

  

There is no other surgical procedure performed on infants in which a perfectly healthy and normal body part is removed. Why this one procedure gets the exception is beyond me.

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
In my situation I wish my parents had circumcised me as a baby because now, if I do get a circumcision, I have to go to hospital and have surgery and that is at least 3 days out of action (not to mention the other type of action!).

No, it can be done much easier than that, using the African method. It takes about an hour and the pain isn't too bad.

As far as the thing about HIV transmission, there is another important number to be calculated in any study: the Number Needed to Treat (NNT). For example, suppose that 95% of ear infections are viral. Then I'd have to prescribe 20 kids with ear infections antibiotics to make one kid better for an NNT of 20. Not so impressive, huh?

For circumcision, the NNT for HIV prevention in Sub-Saharan Africa is *60.* (in the U.S., with a lower prevalence of HIV, it's probably at least in the thousands). For the prevention of UTI in infants it's a few hundred. For the prevention of penile cancer, it's probably in the hundreds of thousands to millions.

Suddenly, the medical evidence for circumcision becomes a lot less impressive. But the (religious Jewish) authors of the Africa circumcision studies don't want you to know that, so they didn't include NNT in the study.
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kiwiandrew

RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
As far as the thing about HIV transmission,

Another problem is that due to the exaggerated 'benefits' of circumcision with regard to a reduction of STI incidence it draws attention away from a much simpler and less drastic method of reducing infection.... using condoms. I have met guys who seriously believe that because they are 'cut' that they can screw around to their heart's content continuing to practice unsafe sex.
 
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moo
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:47 pm

For those commenting on how the religious significance baffles them, why it's altering "Gods image" etc, it's actually commanded of the Jews by God.

Genisis 17:

Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. ”
 
luv2fly
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Had I been asked I would have said NO.....
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Ken777
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:15 pm

I seem to be reading some years back that not having the procedure done slightly increase the risk of penile cancer, and their partners have a slightly higher increased risk of cervical cancers. "Slight" was the term used for both risks.
 
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kngkyle
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:36 pm

I'm circumsized but I would not have chose it, and would not do it to my kids.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:53 pm

Perhaps I'm incredibly naive here, but those of you who were circumcised as a baby and strongly wish they weren't, why? I was circumcised when I was an infant and I've never thought much about it. Doesn't bother me at all. The procedure wasn't done correctly and I had some complications that required minor surgery when I was in third grade, but other than that I've never really given it any thought. I'm just curious why people who were circumcised wish they weren't.
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September11
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:07 pm

This is somewhat interesting. I've received every indication that circumsion or no circumsion is perfectly fine. I feel circumsion is old school so I'm uncertain about circumsion on my boys. Maybe one boy circumcised and the other boy uncircumised.
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Longhornmaniac
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:11 pm

I'm glad I was. I find it much more aesthetically pleasing and less effort to care after (based on conversations with my uncircumcised friends). My completely unscientific survey among girls I've discussed it with (all across the planet) indicates a preference for circumcised men, but I absolutely concede it's unscientific. But the fact that women say that, even in places where its prevalence is very low, was surprising/telling to me.

It's one of those things where I wouldn't want it done as an adult, but I'm glad it was done as an infant.

Completely irrespective of any benefits (of which I believe the science is inconclusive either way), it's a personal preference. I'll probably have it done to my boys.

The truth is the vast majority of us will not experience having both, so making any subjective claim about which is better is folly. The majority of those will be content with what they have, and more likely than not will choose whatever they have for their kids.

There will be people on both sides who aren't happy with the decision of their parents (as is evidenced in this thread alone), and it's one of those things where you have to believe your parents, whatever they chose, chose based on your best intentions.

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GST
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting September11 (Reply 29):
Maybe one boy circumcised and the other boy uncircumised.

If you're that on the fence about it I can't help but be of the opinion that this option is just plain irrational. If you are unsure either way I infer you don't feel any particularly strong religious argument to do so, and are not convinced of any medical justification of overwhelming significance. Therefore you must be at least conscious of the arguments against circumcision and have given them some credence, or simply don't place importance on the perceived benefits.

It is perfectly possible to be on the fence about infant circumcision, you may be for it, against it, or have no preference. The thing about this topic however, is that to be on the fence should (in my opinion) be to err on the side of leaving your sons uncut and let them make their own decisions on the matter when older. If you cannot think of a convincing justification to do it on all of your sons I can not imagine wanting to risk doing it to one, only for it becoming something he grows up to resent.

If there is one thing I have gained from this thread, it is that for all of those who were glad they are cut (and who probably would have considered having it done in adulthood) or who are indifferent, there are a significant number who dislike that it was done for whatever reason. I am not a parent, but could not imagine doing something that may have this consequence over a pure aesthetical choice.
 
GST
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 30):
My completely unscientific survey among girls I've discussed it with (all across the planet) indicates a preference for circumcised men, but I absolutely concede it's unscientific. But the fact that women say that, even in places where its prevalence is very low, was surprising/telling to me.

If such studies exist (anyone on here have access to scientific journal libraries to tell us maybe?), I wonder if this viewpoint would be relatively new. I hypothesise that much of the reason for worldwide positive opinion on the aesthetics of a cut penis, from the perspective of males and females, is their overwhelming majority in mainstream porn. The porn industry with by far the biggest following worldwide, amongst men and women is the US porn industry, where most of the penises are circumcised.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 30):

There will be people on both sides who aren't happy with the decision of their parents (as is evidenced in this thread alone), and it's one of those things where you have to believe your parents, whatever they chose, chose based on your best intentions.

I find this viewpoint puzzling. I simply see the risk of a child growing up to be disappointed that they were cut (or in extreme cases hate the fact) and being unable to remedy the situation as by far the worse option to a child who was uncut growing up to wish to be circumcised, with the option to get it done if they wish. Yes it is a chore, yes you have to take pills so you don't get an erection for a week to let it heal up, but it is fairly trivial if it is something you want.
 
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mariner
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:44 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 28):
Perhaps I'm incredibly naive here, but those of you who were circumcised as a baby and strongly wish they weren't, why?

Circumcision isn't my natural state. My body was changed - for no valid medical reason - without my consent.

My mother had it done because she didn't want me to be like my father (uncut) whom she had come to hate. She believed that circumcision might "reduce my sexual appetite" - sorry, mum.

In terms of peer pressure, it was fine when I was at school in the Middle East (all the boys were cut) but I had to go to school in Europe for a while and I was the only cut, so I was bullied as "half man" by the other boys. I have a fairly healthy ego - LOL - so I survived all that but it surely made an impression on me.

I understand the religious reasons for it (Jews/Muslims) but I'm not religious in any way and I'd rather be who I am, not who my parents or any doctor wants me to be.

mariner
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Max Q
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:55 am

Well I'm glad I had it done.



Just for the hygienic aspect alone it was worth it and i'm glad my Parents made this decision, I certainly would not have wanted to have the procedure later in life !




Both of my boys had it done very young.




I think most women prefer it too but I am curious.



Any women on this site / thread with an opinion on this, curious to know their viewpoint ?
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 34):
I think most women prefer it too but I am curious.

A woman is not marrying a penis. I don't understand why a woman would have a preference for one over the other. I will not change who I am to please her just as I can't expect her to change her appearance to please me. Besides, that part of the body will only see action with said person for a brief period. If I can't be in a relationship with a woman just because I am uncut, I'd dump her right then and there, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
kl838
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:28 am

I am not circumcised, and I don't agree with it, because when you look at the reasoning its mostly because of hygiene or religious reasons. As for hygiene I don't understand why can't someone just clean their penis when they take a shower. If you do that everyday the whole hygiene matter becomes non existent, and as for religion it depends on how strict ones family is or how strict you are. I have come across some people who did need to get circumcised because the foreskin is too tight, which is understandable. At the end of the day it is personal preference, and if you are circumcised from birth there is not much that you could do about it.
 
Max Q
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 35):

A woman is not marrying a penis. I don't understand why a woman would have a preference for one over the other. I will not change who I am to please her just as I can't expect her to change her appearance to please me. Besides, that part of the body will only see action with said person for a brief period. If I can't be in a relationship with a woman just because I am uncut, I'd dump her right then and there, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

You are right that certainly should not be a reason for a relationship to work or not.


Just wondered whether Women have a preference.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting moo (Reply 24):
For those commenting on how the religious significance baffles them, why it's altering "Gods image" etc, it's actually commanded of the Jews by God.

Genisis 17:

Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. ”

Reading this word by word in 2012 is like having the devil read the Bible. When translated into modern language, then it should be something like this:

"Then God said to Abraham: Sorry mate, but I left it to future generations to invent showers and shampoo. It causes some discomfort for you, since you - unlike the vikings - live in the hot and sweaty Middle East. Therefore you shall have this little trick done on yourself, your sons, the male slaves which you bought, and their sons. It will relieve you all of quite a few problems with your penis until in a few thousand years time when I let future generations invent bathrooms with clean water and soap. (And please notice, dear Abraham, that at roughly the same time I will seriously consider banning slavery)."

In those days it was identical to having a vaccination against a disease - including caretaking and responcible slavery management.

But not today since soap has already been invented. I couldn't care less whether people choose to be circumcised or not - or have rings in the nose, tattoos or whatever. But having it done on children is an abuse. They have the right to choose themselves.

Being uncircumcised is a big advantage if you are naked and climbing trees for hunting with bow and arrow or such. Otherwise your fifth extremity can become a little "worn". But few people I know of are making a living that way these days. So choose as you like - for YOURSELF.

[Edited 2012-06-24 19:54:23]
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Aesma
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:27 am

I'm against it.

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
In my situation I wish my parents had circumcised me as a baby

The thing is that if that had been the case, you could be part of the crowd wishing you hadn't been circumcised as a child !

At least here you have the choice.
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Longhornmaniac
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting GST (Reply 32):
mainstream porn

Interesting you bring this up because from my vantage point, I'm surprised how many men are uncircumcised in porn. In my *cough* experiences *cough cough* I feel the majority are uncircumcised.

Quoting GST (Reply 32):
being unable to remedy the situation as by far the worse option to a child who was uncut growing up to wish to be circumcised, with the option to get it done if they wish.

While I think this point is valid, it's at least worth mentioning there is foreskin restoration. I haven't done much research on it, but I admit I have an odd fascination with the global prevalence of circumcision, in a completely nonsexual way.

As I predicted, areas where the prevalence is low have decidedly negative attitudes toward it, while areas where it's more common have more positive attitudes toward it.

I would postulate this question, though: if lots of people are unhappy that they were circumcised, the likelihood of them circumcising their children is very low. While circumcision rates in the US have dropped, there are some confounding factors that may account for part of the drop (for one, circumcisions performed later in infancy due to religious reasons are often not counted, and also, an influx of immigration from areas where circumcision isn't performed). Since there's little evidence to indicate circumcision rates dropping as a result of unhappiness with the procedure, doesn't this indicate those that have had it done are at least content with it?

I stand by my statement that most people that have been circumcised are happy (or are at least neutral) they have been, and most people that haven't are happy that they haven't. There will be people that aren't, but I certainly don't think it's fair for someone to tell me that I shouldn't have been circumcised when I'm pleased with it.

Which is why I stand by my statement that there is nobody who has more interest in the goodwill of the child than the parents. In all cases, they should be provided the latest and most encompassing information regarding neonatal circumcision, and make the choice for their child, factoring in medical, ethical, societal, and religious reasons, and whatever else they want to consider. Different people can and will come to different conclusions. I'm fine with that. I certainly would not push a friend who's considering this topic toward circumcision. If asked, I would explain my reasons for believing what I do, but encourage them to make their own choice.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Edited 2012-06-24 20:30:41]
Cheers,
Cameron
 
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:54 am

I have heard that one reason circumcision got so popular in the US in the 50's and onwards was it was a quick buck for the doctor who was doing it. I think the charge was something like $400 back then for about 15 minutes of the doctors time.

Clearly some doctors had better skills than other in this area than others.
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:56 am

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 40):

As I predicted, areas where the prevalence is low have decidedly negative attitudes toward it, while areas where it's more common have more positive attitudes toward it.

Well of course, but you can say the same about female "circumcision", in this case there is absolutely no room for argument, that is a horrific mutilation, but there are still parts of the world where it is extensively applied.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 40):
doesn't this indicate those that have had it done are at least content with it?

It may indicate that a majority are happy, possibly even a large majority, but I think you need a bit more data to pick meaning out of such a restricted measured variable.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 40):
There will be people that aren't, but I certainly don't think it's fair for someone to tell me that I shouldn't have been circumcised when I'm pleased with it.

Fair enough, but I personally tend to endorse the side of avoiding unnecessary irreversible procedures where patient consent is not possible, even where the incident rate of people being unhappy with it is relatively low. Yes, foreskins can be reconstructed if a person wishes, after a fashion, but it is a far from trivial procedure that takes much longer than adult circumcision would if going the other way.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 40):
If asked, I would explain my reasons for believing what I do, but encourage them to make their own choice.

  
There are far greater evils in the world than male circumcision so I'm happy to agree with this.
 
bookishaviator
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:04 am

Quoting kl838 (Reply 36):
As for hygiene I don't understand why can't someone just clean their penis when they take a shower. If you do that everyday the whole hygiene matter becomes non existent

Precisely. Personally, I wouldn't want to go anywhere near any unwashed penis, circumcised or not.
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moo
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 38):
Reading this word by word in 2012 is like having the devil read the Bible.

That wasnt the intention, it was to show those questioning the religious aspect that it did infact appear in the Bible as a requirement from God.
 
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:47 pm

A point that hasn't been brought up, but I feel that should be important: sexual pleasure.

Knowing only my uncircumcised position, I think that that's a lot of very sensitive skin with a lot of nerve endings that gets cut off there. Why forfeit that sensation and the subsequent possibilities of pleasure?

Not to mention that the missing foreskin over the glans surely leads to a lot of lost sensitivity in the glans as well, doesn't it?

[Edited 2012-06-25 07:50:04]
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
I think that lack of my consent is quite wrong - it's my body, I should decide.

Since this is the overwhelming opinion on here, it's obvious you people have issues with your parents for whatever reason and WAY too much time on your hands.

Or maybe something else is on your hands.
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smittyone
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 38):
In those days it was identical to having a vaccination against a disease - including caretaking and responcible slavery management.

Exactly, and this is the root of a lot of other health related 'religious requirements' created during the age of superstition.

Some poor fellow eats undercooked pork (or beef and milk at the same time) and dies - God steps up to command people not to eat these things.

Had abdominal surgery not been a death sentence in Old Testament times God probably would have commanded the Jews to remove the appendix in case that went south. Maybe the prostate too, once a man's child producing days were over.

Of course had medicine and science advanced that quickly I doubt whether the Old Testament would have been written at all.

Even so, taking Genesis at its word - if the God of Abraham is saying "Hey, I want to you cough up a piece of pipe as a sign of our covenant" I'm going to ask for a piece of his or find a better God. There are certainly enough good ones to choose from.
 
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 46):
Since this is the overwhelming opinion on here, it's obvious you people have issues with your parents for whatever reason

Eh? How did you get to that conclusion, I wouldn't want to have my parents deciding to cut bits of my body off for no apparent reason so that means I have issues?

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einsteinboricua
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 46):
Since this is the overwhelming opinion on here, it's obvious you people have issues with your parents for whatever reason and WAY too much time on your hands.

Or maybe something else is on your hands.

It's not something that should be blown up, but then again, why should a parent decide how my body will look like? Why should a baby be circumcised as opposed to wait until he is of age to determine whether he should do it? I don't think many here have an issue with their parents: what's done is done, but I think many of us would rather let our children decide in the end if they wish the procedure or not. Since there's nothing that proves a health benefit of having circumcision just hours after being born rather than at 18 years of age, why not allow the years to go by?
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