Stealthz
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Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:57 am

Last week a boat load of asylum seekers breaking the laws of several countries, for often economic reasons, chose to ignore the advice of rescue authorities in two countries, ultimately sinking with great loss of life.(few confirmed dead at this point but many still missing after several days in the open ocean).

http://www.smh.com.au/national/17-bo...grim-task-ends-20120624-20vzn.html

These people pay large sums of money to queue jump the immigration process, as said earlier for often economic reasons. Many times the genuine political refugees bring their cultural and political conflicts with them!

Back to the main issue, these people ignored the advice of experts, Australian authorities advised their Indonesian counterparts.. to little apparent effect.. and continued onto disaster.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...-rescue-effort-20120623-20uzl.html

Somehow this is Australia's fault.. I don't get that.

In the article it states the boat phoned AMSA to say they were in trouble, it should be noted these criminals have AMSA's number on speed dial in their phones as it is their standard MO to get close to Australia and then declare an "emergency" it allows them to be "rescued" and thus legitimately get ashore on Australian territory.
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windy95
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:45 pm

Seems the writer of the article has a political axe to grind. The only ones at fault are the operators of the vessel and the asylum seekers. They knew they where in trouble when still close to Jakarta and did not go back.
 
AA7295
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:53 pm

Urgh! I'm sorry, why doesn't Indonesia inspect these boats before they leave. Would a crappy boat be allowed to travel in Australia... no!

Watch out... the majority of people on this forum are American. Who CLEARLY will let anyone ILLEGALLY enter their country. Legally... it's a different matter!
 
Stealthz
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 2):
Who CLEARLY will let anyone ILLEGALLY enter their country. Legally... it's a different matter!

Didn't intend this to be come a discussion of American immigration issues.

Both our countries(and several more) are hugely attractive to others, if we had very long land borders with another less attractive country we would have similar- or even worse- issues to the Americans.
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yyz717
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:52 pm

Hopefully Australia will eject them from Christmas Island back to their country of origin.

These criminal migrants should be shamed of themselves. If they want a better life, they should build one in their home country rather than break the laws of Australia to gain illegal entry.

Australia should stop being so soft, and start getting tough with these criminal migrants and the countries that quietly enable them.
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RussianJet
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:50 pm

Solely the fault of the jerks organising these death trips. Those behind such activities should be hunted down and forced to spend the rest of their life behind bars. I don't approve of the individuals attempting to migrate illegally, but their actions are far more understandable than the bastards who profit from them and set up such mass attempts.
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yyz717
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
Solely the fault of the jerks organising these death trips. Those behind such activities should be hunted down and forced to spend the rest of their life behind bars. I don't approve of the individuals attempting to migrate illegally, but their actions are far more understandable than the bastards who profit from them and set up such mass attempts.

Both the organizers and the migrants themselves are EQUALLY to blame.
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RussianJet
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 6):
Both the organizers and the migrants themselves are EQUALLY to blame.

They are both to blame, but the systematic organising of such death trips for profit is the more morally repugnant side of it.
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ltbewr
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:11 pm

As with the USA, Australia is not be obligated to do anything if in international waters and certainly if the boat is in the territorial waters of another country ot territory. Still, as with the USA government, Australia might have their Navy or their = to the USA's Coast Guard save those on a foundering or sinking ship out of humanity as well as under various treaties are signers to, return the passangers to their home country after medical checks and holding for criminal prosecution the boat's apparent captain and officers. For Australia, they may not have the same treaty obligations. Australia has a long history of strict immigration policy in part to not be overwhelmed by illegal immigration but also due to political pressures to do so.
 
mal787
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:09 am

It may not be Australias fault, that lies soley at the blame of the people peddlars that are bringing them here in leaky boats. But why is it that Australia has to save them, when the boat was actually in Indonesian waters. Simple the Indonesian Goverment could not give a rats Ass. and the do gooding Greenies and the hangers on are now jumping around wanting an enquiry into how/ why it happened.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
Australia should stop being so soft, and start getting tough with these criminal migrants and the countries that quietly enable them.


Sadly our current Goverment is keen on handouts to all and sundry , boat people and any body else that wants it, they cant get tough as they fear loosing the next election, perhaps they should listen to your average Jo blow in the streets and every talk back station in the country , and wake up to them selves and realise they have already lost it, and stop wasting mine and every other taxpayers money for there own self gratification
rant over

mal787
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bookishaviator
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:56 am

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
for often economic reasons

Really? Based on what? (I ask this sincerely, not because I'm trying to be argumentative.)

The vast majority of those detained under Howard's Nauru solution were eventually re-settled in Australia after being determined to be genuine refugees, so I'm interested to know what the current numbers are in terms of economic migrants vs. genuine refugees.

Anyway, I think the ultimate solution to Australia's border protection problems lies in Indonesia, but I can't see any of our current political leaders (those in government and those in waiting) having the balls to do anything about that. Everything else is more or less a band-aid solution. And even then, neither Gillard nor Abbott have offered anything worthwhile to that discussion.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:22 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
These criminal migrants should be shamed of themselves

They are refugees, NOT migrants !   

And they arrived illegally by boat, not with Visa's either !

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
Australia should stop being so soft, and start getting tough with these criminal migrants and the countries that quietly enable them.

Yeah, like a country being discussed in another thread !!

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
Solely the fault of the jerks organising these death trips. Those behind such activities should be hunted down and forced to spend the rest of their life behind bars. I don't approve of the individuals attempting to migrate illegally, but their actions are far more understandable than the bastards who profit from them and set up such mass attempts.

Agree 100%

Unfortunately, we need the cooperation of the Indonesians and that, as you can imagine is not easy on a scale like this. I would venture to say that there is also a degree of corruption.

Quoting mal787 (Reply 9):
Sadly our current Goverment is keen on handouts to all and sundry

Yes, blatant vote buying at its worst.
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zkojq
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:25 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
Those behind such activities should be hunted down and forced to spend the rest of their life behind bars. I don't approve of the individuals attempting to migrate illegally, but their actions are far more understandable than the bastards who profit from them and set up such mass attempts.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
They are both to blame, but the systematic organising of such death trips for profit is the more morally repugnant side of it.

People smuggling trips are run by organized criminals, though this documentary suggests that not all the sailors on boats that are involved in people smuggling know what they are getting themselves into.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...ast/2012/05/20125151118975100.html
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Stealthz
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:05 pm

Slightly off the main topic...

I see on the Australian media tonight that the bleeding hearts are saying Australia's obligations to the UNHCR is to accept all (and rescue when in some other country) these people ... what about all the other countries between Australia and Middle/South Asia that see themselves as part of the 21st century world community, hell they are just happy to call Australia racist and evil.

Get over it .. you want to be seen as civililised.. act like it and stop passing off your responsibilities!!
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Dreadnought
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:21 pm

Australian vessels which pick up these boat people should take them straight back to Indonesia (or whichever country they belong to), without stopping off in Australia. Indonesia would not be allowed under international law to refuse to take them back.

You have to remember that for countries like Indonesia or the Philippines, they don't want to stop them from leaving. Just like Mexico, having economic refugees make it to a more prosperous country like Australia alleviates pressure on their own systems and on top of that provides a source of external revenue as those people send money back to their families.
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Zkpilot
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 13):
what about all the other countries between Australia and Middle/South Asia

      
Have been saying this for a long time now. Most refugee's coming to Australia (with the exception of Indonesians) have several countries to go through before they reach Australia.
Surely the point of being a refugee is to escape danger/persecution etc in your own country (although in many cases perhaps they should all be staying and standing up together as has happened in most countries at some point in their history rather than running away), so that means Afghans go to Pakistan, Iran or other neighbouring countries, Somalis go to another part of Africa, etc etc. The ONLY reason why they are making their way all that distance to Australia is for economic reasons... ie they cease to be refugees and becoming economic migrants (and therefore jumping the queue over those who have applied for visas through the right channels). Why? Well they can live the easy life in Australia, get housing, benefits, aid etc and then follow that up by bringing in their parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, cousins, children etc.
Further to this most are of Muslim background where even if just 5% (which is a very very conservatively low number) hate/are radical then that means that every year there are potentially many terrorists/supporters entering the country that have no business being there.

So we have: 1) Economic migrants (most with little practical education or useful skills to Australia),
2) Costs borne by the Australian taxpayer to process and care for them
3) Places taken for real migrants by these queue-jumpers
4) Almost certainly a large potential for fundamentalists/radicals who wish harm against Australia.

That is why (and rightly so) Australia takes its position as it does (actually it should be tougher but libertarians etc pay for powerful lawyers and lobbyists).
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
They are refugees, NOT migrants !

Really, are they really, most of the ones we see around here are drug dealing scumbags.

I don't believe any country should take any of these people in, the answer to the problems are better resolved in their home countries, passing them on to the west to resolve these issues is unfair on the taxpayers of the countries they end up in.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
Really, are they really, most of the ones we see around here are drug dealing scumbags.

You are right KiwiRob. I was just being PC.

Most of them are IMHO, shady to say the least.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about them being dealt with in their own country in a more satisfactory way, but in the global world we live and the international conventions that Australia is signatory too, we have little choice but to accept them.

Oh its a crazy mixed up world isn't it ????

I must say that the "pacific solution" (Naru) of the Howard Government, was and is the way to go forward on this. Labor has only made matters much worse ! Like everything they do.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
3) Places taken for real migrants by these queue-jumpers

     

Did you know that there are more than 30 million refugees in camps around the world, all waiting to be allocated a spot within a accepting country.Some have been waiting years, patiently. And for every queue jumper that arrived on our shores, these other get pushed back.!
For that reason alone, I would NOT accept them under any circumstances.
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NAV20
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Australian vessels which pick up these boat people should take them straight back to Indonesia (or whichever country they belong to), without stopping off in Australia.

Case of 'if only.......,' Dreadnought. These boats are almost always wornout wrecks, often in 'readymade' sinking condition - so intercepting them usually comes under the heading of 'rescues at sea.' In that situation our Navy is presumably legally bound to take them to a 'place of safety' - generally speaking, the nearest land.

As a matter of fact, mainland Australia is over 2,000kms. from Indonesia - such boats would never make it there. But Christmas Island and the Cocos Islands - both Australian sovereign territories, part of Western Australia - are only about 500kms. from the Asian mainland. So all the people-smugglers have to do is to get reasonably close to them and 'call for help.' As the press stories indicate, they usually literally 'ring up' the Rescue Services on mobile phones........and the Navy really has no alternative but to 'rescue' them and take them to Christmas or Cocos.

A previous Australian government followed a policy of 'off-shore processing' - basically shipping them all to Nauru, way out in the Pacific, rather than mainland Australia. Most of them did turn out to be 'refugees' and eventually get admitted to Oz - but the certainty of having to spend a long time cooling their heels in what is almost literally 'the middle of nowhere' certainly reduced the numbers coming. But the present government scrubbed the 'Nauru solution' and currently ships them straight to the mainland for processing.

I think the pressure of public opinion will soon produce further changes - probably some sort of return to off-shore processing. I hope it does - Australia has a good reputation for taking in refugees, but there is an official annual 'quota' -at the moment the illegal arrivals are pretty well taking up that quota, so more deserving people who apply in the normal way are having to wait even longer........

[Edited 2012-06-25 20:10:09]
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TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
our Navy is presumably legally bound to take them to a 'place of safety' - generally speaking, the nearest land.

Hi NAV20,

Yes, except in this case I thought the nearest land was Indonesia, yet somehow they end up here. I note that no politician has been able to satisfactorily answer that.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
I think the pressure of public opinion will soon produce further changes - probably some sort of return to off-shore processing. I hope it does

Let me second that !

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
Australia has a good reputation for taking in refugees, but there is an official annual 'quota' -at the moment the illegal arrivals are pretty well taking up that quota, so more deserving people who apply in the normal way are having to wait even longer........

Funny that the greens are silent when asked directly about that scenario, casually brushing it aside. I saw Milne a few night ago on the TV, she was asked directly about that.... all we got as a reply, was something about "these people have no choice" not like the ones in the UNHCR camps, patiently waiting their turn...
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NAV20
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:53 am

Yet another 'refugee boat' has sunk - 107 miles north of Christmas Island. It is the second one in a week; a few days ago another boat sank with the loss of over 100 lives.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/pol...om-ocean-death-20120627-211jz.html

Possibly there is a new 'twist' emerging. The passengers on the earlier boat were reported to be all men; apparently the 150 people on this latest one are all women and children......... Possibly the people-smugglers are now separating families before taking them to sea - and, often enough, getting them drowned?

The conviction ia also growing on me that all these boats aren't just sinking because they're worn out - almost always, conveniently, just about exactly 100 miles from Christmas Island. It looks increasingly likely that the people-smugglers are deliberately scuttling them.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:08 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
The conviction ia also growing on me that all these boats aren't just sinking because they're worn out - almost always, conveniently, just about exactly 100 miles from Christmas Island. It looks increasingly likely that the people-smugglers are deliberately scuttling them.

Like the "coyotes", who guide illegal immigrants through the deserts between northern Mexico and the US robbing those whom they are supposed to guide of their belongings and then leave them to die in the desert?

Jan
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moo
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
The conviction ia also growing on me that all these boats aren't just sinking because they're worn out - almost always, conveniently, just about exactly 100 miles from Christmas Island. It looks increasingly likely that the people-smugglers are deliberately scuttling them.

Or just abandoning the ships as they themselves don't wish to be arrested by the authorities - an abandoned ship that overloaded and of that size will rapidly become an issue to its passengers.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:53 am

Quoting moo (Reply 22):
Or just abandoning the ships as they themselves don't wish to be arrested by the authorities

The crew, once established, will be arrested by the authorities, as they are considered people smugglers. Don't worry about that.
Our present Government, is more then willing to make a big thing about their prosecution, in the hope that it will put others, perhaps those considering such actions, off !

These cartels, for want of a better word, are well organized.

They, the crew, and I reckon many of the passengers, would know full well that if the boat sinks, or is in imminent danger of sinking, then under international maritime law they will be rescued, by sources closest to the nearest landfall, which just so happens to be Australia !

[Edited 2012-06-27 02:55:57]
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Stealthz
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:30 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
by sources closest to the nearest landfall, which just so happens to be Australia !

Not totally accurate, the incompetence shown by Indonesia.. or perhaps just their inate hostility to Australia.. leads to situations where Australia bears the brunt of the rescue operations even when in Indonesian waters..

With last weeks capsize, the nearest landfall was Indonesia, why were the rescued not taken there?

Why would the caring humanitarians of Indonesia not stop these boats leaving and throw their criminal crews in prison?

Because it suits their purposes to fob these problems off on Australia, just a bonus that they make Australia look bad in the process.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 24):
Not totally accurate,

Yes stealthz, You have a point, however, I have already raised that point in a previous post (19 from memory)

Apparently, we are now responsible for rescues in Indonesian waters too !!

Go figure.   

I have been waiting for the press to ask the question, as to why we took the rescued passengers back to Christmas Island, when in fact, they were rescued in waters that belong to Indonesia.

Again, go figure   

eerie silence !

[Edited 2012-06-27 03:46:43]

[Edited 2012-06-27 03:56:41]
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moo
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
The crew, once established, will be arrested by the authorities, as they are considered people smugglers. Don't worry about that.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
They, the crew, and I reckon many of the passengers, would know full well that if the boat sinks, or is in imminent danger of sinking, then under international maritime law they will be rescued, by sources closest to the nearest landfall, which just so happens to be Australia !

You miss my point - the crew would be arrested if they stayed with the boat when it reached Australian territories, plus they probably have pay to collect and families. They don't want to do this once and end up in a prison, they want to do it again and again and again.

Buy a cheap boat, fill it to the hilt with paying customers, sail it to within a given distance of Australia and then tell the customers they are on their own - leave in another boat thats been tailing them for that purpose. They get to live again.

After they have abandoned the smuggling boat, it rapidly becomes unwieldy for totally inexperienced people to handle and sinks.

The crew wont be onboard at that time, they are long gone.
 
mal787
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:17 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
Christmas Island and the Cocos Islands - both Australian sovereign territories, part of Western Australia - are only about 500kms. from the Asian mainland.

Ok how about hand the soverign rites of these 2 islands back to the original owners, must be related to indonesia in some way or form prior to the British rule back in the 1800's . If its indonesia any boat that leaves there and enters Australian waters is then towed back into Indonesian waters and cut loose . stop all access to Australia . I do have another option    but its politically incorrect

mal787

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Stealthz
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:21 am

Quoting moo (Reply 26):
leave in another boat thats been tailing them for that purpose. They get to live again.

And this would not occour if Indonesia lived up to their Safety at sea obligations and stopped these death traps sailing in the first place.

Indonesia is the negligent party here, negligent at least, likely complicit in the process.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:38 am

Quoting moo (Reply 26):
the crew would be arrested if they stayed with the boat when it reached Australian territories

No Moo, I haven't missed your point. And no, its not a matter of "staying with the boat" either.

These people (the crew of the boat) will be arrested, even if the boat is intercepted in Indonesian water or Australian waters. The passengers, once they have arrived on Christmas Island, will be interviewed by the Federal Police, and will identify the crew.

The authorities have arrested quite a few already.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:42 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 28):
stopped these death traps sailing in the first place.

And don't forget, we have already given the Indonesians a couple of hand me down's, patrol boats to do just that/

Maybe we have to give them fuel, to operate the damn things with.
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bookishaviator
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:43 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 25):
I have been waiting for the press to ask the question, as to why we took the rescued passengers back to Christmas Island, when in fact, they were rescued in waters that belong to Indonesia.


Well the answer to that is already known: because Indonesia won't do it. I don't think that's any sort of conspiratorial secret - Indonesia's negligence in these areas is well reported. Clearly they don't give a sh*t, with the opposite being true of Australia. In similar circumstances, I don't think Australia would ever refuse to assist in some way when in a position to do so (despite not having the legal obligation, which I'm assuming is the case here) - that would be all sorts of political suicide rolled into one.

Quoting mal787 (Reply 27):
I do have another option but its politically incorrect

mal787

waiting for the but i am not the only one thinking of my last comment


Such a thoughtful contribution. There, you got someone to bite. You must be pleased.
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Stealthz
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 30):
And don't forget, we have already given the Indonesians a couple of hand me down's, patrol boats to do just that/

And a handful of C-130 Hercules for transport and humanitarian purposes.. and in a biting the hand that feeds you moment they turned around and asked us to upgrade them to latest standards for them.
In a show of fortitude rarely seen by this current Aus. govt they passed on the phone number of the Lockheed upgrades dept!

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
The authorities have arrested quite a few already.

Not near enough..
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TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting bookishaviator (Reply 31):
I don't think that's any sort of conspiratorial secret

Im not so sure

They ask all sorts on inane questions, except this one

Quoting bookishaviator (Reply 31):
Indonesia's negligence in these areas is well reported.

Agreed, but the Perss gallery is out to score political points to, so it still doesn't explain why they haven't embarrassed the government, by asking the question.

Quoting bookishaviator (Reply 31):
I don't think Australia would ever refuse to assist in some way when in a position to do so (despite not having the legal obligation, which I'm assuming is the case here) - that would be all sorts of political suicide rolled into one.

And the people smugglers know that only to well.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
NAV20
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 24):
With last weeks capsize, the nearest landfall was Indonesia, why were the rescued not taken there?

Not so, stealthz, I'm afraid.

News just came out that the last two boats sank in positions only 13 miles apart - and that the first one was only 107 miles from Christmas Island. So Australia was far and away the 'closest landfall.'

Meanwhile, the Indonesian police have confirmed that both boats were organised by the same organisation. And the fact that both boats went down in virtually the same place, both times with a 'distress message' being sent to the Aussie rescue organisations by satellite phone, strongly suggests that the boats were deliberately scuttled. 90 people drowned on the first one, one person died in yesterday's sinking.

Causing death by deliberately sinking an overcrowded boat 100 miles from land has to be manslaughter at the least; if not murder. I hope that the Australian Federal Police very carefully interview all the survivors to see if they can find evidence of these (almost certainly deliberate) scuttlings. If the crews of these boats find themselves facing twenty-years-plus in gaol for deliberately killing people, my guess is that the 'bigwigs' who are organising this traffic, back in Indonesia, will find it a lot more difficult to recruit boat-crews from now on.......

Meanwhile, the Australian lower house just passed a bill which would bring back off-shore processing. But it's unlikely to become law, the word is that the Greens in the Senate will oppose it.

[Edited 2012-06-27 05:41:39]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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moo
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
No Moo, I haven't missed your point. And no, its not a matter of "staying with the boat" either.

These people (the crew of the boat) will be arrested, even if the boat is intercepted in Indonesian water or Australian waters. The passengers, once they have arrived on Christmas Island, will be interviewed by the Federal Police, and will identify the crew.

The authorities have arrested quite a few already.

Yes, you are indeed missing my point - I dont care about what happens to the crew *now*, whether they will be hunted down or not, thats not part of my comment.

The topic of the particular thread I was discussing in, started by Nav20, was about the nature of the sinkings and how it seems to be conveniently near the same locations all the time.

My suggestion was that the crew were abandoning the boats at that point, leaving the unexperienced, untrained passengers to battle it out themselves. With an overloaded boat and no one with nautical training, its very easy to capsize one of these things.

My point is that the crew do not want to be "rescued" in any scenario - they are going to prison if they are taken into Australian custody. They dont want that, they want to earn more money with the next boat load, and the next. They dont care about the passengers, they care about the money. They cant earn money if they are on the boat when its "rescued" or "arrives".

So yes, you are missing my point.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 34):
and that the first one was only 107 miles from Christmas Island. So Australia was far and away the 'closest landfall.'

Christmas Island is approx 220 mi from Indonesia so "far and away" is a bit of a stretch

The June 21 capsize declared itself in difficulty and was advised to turn back when much closer to Indonesia than that.
They ignored that advice, the Indos also took little action to make them do that!
It capsized NW of Christmas Island, many km inside the Indonesian SAR zone, Much closer to Indonesia than Christmas Island.

[Edited 2012-06-27 06:12:58]
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
NAV20
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 35):
My suggestion was that the crew were abandoning the boats at that point, leaving the unexperienced, untrained passengers to battle it out themselves.

Not so, as far as I know, Moo. They stay with the boats, get 'rescued' along with the others, and put on trial. But only for 'people-smuggling,' which carries a sentence of 'three to five years.' They're currently treated pretty leniently really; a number of them, having served their sentences, have already actually been granted residency.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...-in-rough-seas-20120207-1r4xb.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 35):
So yes, you are missing my point.

I think not.

As far as I'm aware Moo, these "crew" do not abandon the boats. They are rescued along the all the passengers, interviewed, identified (as best we can) and then charged.

So your point about "abandoning" the boat is incorrect.

That is my point.

[Edited 2012-06-27 09:11:14]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
j.mo
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 12:29 am

RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 2):
Watch out... the majority of people on this forum are American. Who CLEARLY will let anyone ILLEGALLY enter their country. Legally... it's a different matter!

Really? Have you looked at a map lately? You are on an island.

Now push that island north into Indonesia, the Philippines and Malaysia. Now guard that border. Good luck!

JM
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting j.mo (Reply 39):
Now guard that border. Good luck!

Absolutely agree.. indeed made that point in reply 2
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting mal787 (Reply 27):
Ok how about hand the soverign rites of these 2 islands back to the original owners

Christmas Island amd Cocos Islands were unihabited when discovered, you could always give them back to the birds.

Quoting bookishaviator (Reply 31):
Clearly they don't give a sh*t, with the opposite being true of Australia.

Australia should follow the same policy, the boat people would be less will to take the risk if they knew that the Australia govt wouldn't bother rescuing them.
 
NAV20
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 36):
Christmas Island is approx 220 mi from Indonesia so "far and away" is a bit of a stretch

Probably was overdoing it a bit, stealthz!   But, in a way, it rather confirms my suspicion that, as soon as they are sure that they're closer to Australia than to anywhere else, they call for help and scuttle the boat.

Looked up the relevant Australian law and discovered that you can get life for manslaughter if it's a vicious enough crime:-

"Criminal Negligence: a very high degree of negligence is required – inattention or a simple lack of care is not sufficient. However, where behaviour is so reckless as to show a disregard for the life and safety of others this will generally meet the test of criminal negligence.

---------------------

"The maximum penalty for manslaughter is life imprisonment. However, due to the many and varying range of circumstances that can occur in cases of manslaughter there is no standard sentence. The penalty imposed in each case will depend on the factors of that case."


http://www.lawhandbook.sa.gov.au/ch10s05s01s02.php

I think that if they can get enough evidence to prove that the sinkings are deliberate, and make an example of some of these guys - especially the skippers - there might be a lot fewer people volunteering to crew the boats?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
mandala499
Posts: 6460
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 2):
Urgh! I'm sorry, why doesn't Indonesia inspect these boats before they leave. Would a crappy boat be allowed to travel in Australia... no!

Who doesn't want Indonesia to have a strong navy... Australia
Who doesn't want Indonesia to have a strong fisheries patrol force/Coast Guard/EEZ patrol Force... Australia

Quoting mal787 (Reply 9):
It may not be Australias fault, that lies soley at the blame of the people peddlars that are bringing them here in leaky boats. But why is it that Australia has to save them, when the boat was actually in Indonesian waters. Simple the Indonesian Goverment could not give a rats Ass. and the do gooding Greenies and the hangers on are now jumping around wanting an enquiry into how/ why it happened

So if we rescue them... they'd refuse to be rescued. They "want to be rescued by Australia"...

Quoting stealthz (Reply 13):
I see on the Australian media tonight that the bleeding hearts are saying Australia's obligations to the UNHCR is to accept all

"Do goodies" countries are screwed up by these "refugees" whom 99% are purely economic migrants. I left Australia (gave up my legal migration process) when illegals have more rights than me (back in my student days).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Australian vessels which pick up these boat people should take them straight back to Indonesia (or whichever country they belong to), without stopping off in Australia. Indonesia would not be allowed under international law to refuse to take them back.

So why don't we send people we catch going to say, Malaysia, straight to Australia? Just kidding. Remember MV Tampa?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
The ONLY reason why they are making their way all that distance to Australia is for economic reasons... ie they cease to be refugees and becoming economic migrants (and therefore jumping the queue over those who have applied for visas through the right channels). Why? Well they can live the easy life in Australia, get housing, benefits, aid etc and then follow that up by bringing in their parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, cousins, children etc.

Bingo. Benefits, aid, etc... that is what they're after. The problem on becoming a welfare state is, you'd get this kind of problems.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
Further to this most are of Muslim background where even if just 5% (which is a very very conservatively low number) hate/are radical then that means that every year there are potentially many terrorists/supporters entering the country that have no business being there.

If Muslim countries or predominantly Muslim countries want these guys in prison for religious extremism, please don't accept them into your countries and blame us for exporting them... Someone had to import them by accepting them into a country.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 24):
Not totally accurate, the incompetence shown by Indonesia.. or perhaps just their inate hostility to Australia.. leads to situations where Australia bears the brunt of the rescue operations even when in Indonesian waters..

Hostility to Australia? LOL.
Wait, is that in Indonesian waters? Our legal sovereign territory only extends a few miles... It is outside our territorial waters (12NM) or our contiguous zone (24NM). Under the Indonesian-Australian SAR agreement, we're under no obligation to provide the SAR ops at our chosing within our designated zone.

Quoting mal787 (Reply 27):
Ok how about hand the soverign rites of these 2 islands back to the original owners, must be related to indonesia in some way or form prior to the British rule back in the 1800's .

Actually, no. They were uninhabited. BUT, if you want to, you could actually give the island to Malaysia or Singapore (as Britain imported Malaysians and Singaporeans there)... In fact, Christmas Island at one stage was administered from Singapore.    In 1957, Australia paid Singapore 2.9 million pounds for the transfer of sovereignty to Australia. Why not just give it back to them!   

As always, periodically, this immigration/refugee issue appears to get out of hand. Maybe, the solution is the Thai solution... rip the engines out, tow them to sea... and cut the tow line. *Are we that cruel yet?*
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:04 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
Under the Indonesian-Australian SAR agreement, we're under no obligation to provide the SAR ops at our chosing within our designated zone.

What do you mean you are under no obligation to provide SAR ops within your SAR zone.

The head of your SAR ops has been very critical of Australia( the country that gifts patrol boats and supply planes to your country) yet both these capsizes happened where?? and who provided the bulk of the SAR assets?

As of nightfall Wednesday, many hours after the latest capsize(and many more after the first distress call) there had been no contribution to the rescue effort from Indonesia.**

Time this huge(and relatively rich) country stepped up to the plate and stated acting like the mature world player it claims to be.


** Not sure I need to repeat this happened well inside the Indonesian SAR zone.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:33 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
Who doesn't want Indonesia to have a strong navy... Australia
Who doesn't want Indonesia to have a strong fisheries patrol force/Coast Guard/EEZ patrol Force... Australia

Oh no.......

You must be mistaken mandela499.

Australia gifted you Patrol Boats and aircraft not long ago, in fact, they, the boats, were give on the understanding that they would be used for, and I quote

"Under agreements struck yesterday between Prime Minister Julia Gillard and Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono in Bali, three high-speed Australian naval vessels will also be deployed to Indonesian waters in a bid to combat people smugglers."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...cules/story-e6frev00-1226201618409

So where were they mandela499, is your navy on strike ?

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
So if we rescue them... they'd refuse to be rescued. They "want to be rescued by Australia"...

Pull the other one will you.

Are you honestly telling us all here, your overloaded boat is sinking (because you sabotaged it) you then send out a distress call and wait for help to arrive, the Indonesian patrol boat arrives shortly to rescue you, and you reckon the passengers are going to refuse to be rescued by them ?

Of course your going to let the Indonesian navy rescue you, cuz if you don't, its a VERY long swim to Christmas Island.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
Wait, is that in Indonesian waters?

But wait..... guess what, it was in Indonesian waters !!!! Not once but many many many times.

Indonesia will do nothing to help in this situation, because its not in there interest to, why would they. Indonesia is quietly pleased to be rid on the refugees, so why would they want to stop them from coming to Australia.

In this case Indonesia should be frowned upon, internationally, for its complete lack of any helpful action in regards to this tragic epidemic,

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
As always, periodically, this immigration/refugee issue appears to get out of hand.

With absolutely NO help from Indonesia at all !

[Edited 2012-06-28 00:35:00]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
mandala499
Posts: 6460
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:37 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 44):
The head of your SAR ops has been very critical of Australia

That's his problem...
Our Maritime SAR assets are deployed elsewhere, and we have little or no SAR capability south of Java... except for coastal SAR capability. Our maritime assets is truly a joke given the area they got to cover...

Quoting stealthz (Reply 44):
Time this huge(and relatively rich) country stepped up to the plate and stated acting like the mature world player it claims to be.

Claimed by the blind nationalists?   
Want democracy? Sure, we'll take democracy... and now our parliament is amongst the most corrupt institution in the country.
The military budgeting law needs reforming, and in the name of "democracy", parliamentarians want the budget savings to go into the nice parliamentary buildings instead of rescue assets... etc... etc... etc... Sorry, our government is more or less a dead duck with the current parliament. Then the disaster relief and prevention budgetary stuff, are totally gone up the creek in the procurement. My work place deal with this on a daily basis (against several Australian (and other countries') company(ies) who wants the Disaster Relief agency, and SAR to buy satcom stuff and airtime from them, bypassing Indonesian telco laws, in the name of "Indonesian National Security"... LOL)

Seriously, the jokers on both sides need to stop! Anyone who things the jokers are only on side of the fence need to get a reality check. We're all guilty!

*So what happens when we rescue them? They're going to call HR violations in the rescue? Yeah, they've tried!*

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:58 am

Not sure if you saw my earlier reply, but you may have moved on..anyway.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 46):
Our maritime assets is truly a joke given the area they got to cover...

We know that already, so that's why Australia gave Indonesia 3 Patrol boats and and 4 C-130 planes etc

[Edited 2012-06-28 00:59:31]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
bookishaviator
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:39 am

RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
99% are purely economic migrants

Where have you pulled this number from?
When I die, when I die, I'll rot. But when I live, when I live, I'll give it all I've got.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Asylum Tragedy, Australia's Fault.. How?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting bookishaviator (Reply 48):
Where have you pulled this number from?

One place comes to mind.      
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”

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