Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9021
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:22 pm

Thursday looks like the day we will finally get a Supreme Court Decision on Health Care Reform.

The biggest single question is obviously on The Mandate. Based on Mitt Romney's Mandate, The Mandate is one of those queer legislative bits that makes the Health Insurance Industry happy and the conservatives (not associated with the health insurance industry) unhappy.

Of course the SCOTUS can strike down the entire law, which would also be interesting as it puts the job of thinking of something else on the GOP - who probably can't think that far. They get confused about the US having the most expensive medical care in the world, but 20+ countries have better outcomes.

My bets? Thomas goes against the entire Act - his wife is simply paid too much for anything else.


Scalia goes against the entire Act - he so publicly have Obama (especially with his rantings this week) that he is incompetent to do anything else.

The Liberals on the Court will support it.

The possible tilt will be Roberts who faces some major decisions. Will he stay with his conservative roots and ensure future invitations to conservative social events, or will he focus the decision without considering the political fallout of being totally independent on this huge issue.

My bet is that Roberts holds the Act together in general terms, with the Mandate in doubt.

My preference is that the Act stays, but the mandate goes, allowing for a public option that competes with private policies. The private health insurance industry has proven that they are incapable of delivering better care at the same costs - their Medicare Advantage is 15% more expensive than the Medicare.
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:42 pm

You beat me to it. I was actually gonna open a poll to see how people here think the decision will come.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
The Mandate is one of those queer legislative bits that makes the Health Insurance Industry happy and the conservatives (not associated with the health insurance industry) unhappy.
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
as it puts the job of thinking of something else on the GOP - who probably can't think that far
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
They get confused about the US having the most expensive medical care in the world,
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
his wife is simply paid too much for anything else.
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
that he is incompetent to do anything else.

Cannot even get through the opening of the thread without all the insult's.  
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:28 pm

Well whether you support it or not (I agree, healthcare needs a major reform of some sort) don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally? I'm just throwing that question out there before this thread becomes very partisan. It could be the best law in the world, but do we want it going against the Constitution?

We'll see what the court says tomorrow. I predict that no matter what happens, either conservatives will say the court is run by liberal activists or liberals will say they were bought off lol   
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Well whether you support it or not (I agree, healthcare needs a major reform of some sort) don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally?

Of course. Which is why the case went to the Supreme Court.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:45 pm

Mandate will be struck down, everything else that doesn't force anything down our throats will stay. Coin toss for the stuff that gets shoved down our throats.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Well whether you support it or not (I agree, healthcare needs a major reform of some sort) don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally? I'm just throwing that question out there before this thread becomes very partisan. It could be the best law in the world, but do we want it going against the Constitution?

I was always a supporter of the Republican individual mandate concept when they crafted it back in the 90's and am fine with it here. I guess it could have simply been made it a tax that you could have credited/adjusted with proper proof of eligible insurance coverage. But dancing around what is essentially just wording is, to me at least, nuts. I understand the "constitutional" issue, but if that is all people object to then why don't the legislators just make the change.

I do believe that the Republican's failed the nation big time by not being fully engaged in the discussions and creating a good universal healthcare access system. I am sure had they participated the resulting legislation would have been better. But of course any Republican was soundly beat into the ground by the press and talking heads and forced to retract any real support.

Business should not be the primary insurer, competition between healthcare providers and for healthcare customers must be maintained, those customers must bear some direct portion if the costs involved, and everyone must be able to get some level of coverage but you do get everything covered at the "base" level.

This is one of the most important things that the nation must address and instead we argue about what is essentially semantics or threaten to rescind the whole thing.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-06-27 16:52:41]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Scalia goes against the entire Act - he so publicly have Obama (especially with his rantings this week) that he is incompetent to do anything else.

This is where I think a lot of credibility of the court comes into question. Everyone knows the court is split 4/4, but for a United States Supreme Court Justice to sit up on the bench and talk about things outside of the questions in front of the court? (The case had nothing to do with the current administration in its handling of immigration, but if Arizona had the legal/constitutional right to enforce immigration)

I think it will break this way:

Against the entire law - Thomas/Scalia/Alito
For the Entire Law - Breyer/Ginsburg/Sotomayor/Kagan

As stated above, it will come down to Roberts and Kennedy. I think they will probably invalidate the mandate, but uphold a lot of the rest. Whatever the outcome, both sides will most likely be unhappy because it is not all they wanted.

How this plays into the election is anyones guess, but it seems to me that instead of talking about the economy alone, the election will also center around the Supreme Court and Immigration.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9021
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:29 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally?

What did the Founding Fathers come up with for the health of the Nation in the Constitution?

The reality is that the Founding Fathers had no knowledge of the levels of medicine that would be available in Modern America. Nor could it have anticipated the realities of Modern America when it came to the massive costs related to health care, especially when compared to countries that have better outcomes at far less a cost.

When it comes to the health of the Nation I doubt if many Americans want to go back to the standards our Founding Fathers suffered under. I also doubt if most Americans are happy with being pretty far down the list when it comes to outcomes.

Finally, I believe that, if the SCOTUS was to toss out the entire Act, they will in reality be sentencing Americans to death.

Sounds drastic until you realize that the US is 22nd in Infant Mortality - tied with Cuba. Bloody Cuba.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13390
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
My preference is that the Act stays, but the mandate goes, allowing for a public option that competes with private policies.

There's a bigger question; severability. Will SCOTUS allow the entire law to stand if one part is gutted? I have a feeling they may tell Congress "Sorry, try again" on this one since there are so many controversial parts to it.

My predictions:

- Mandate is ruled unconstitutional; The Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, but not the power to force a non-buyer to become a buyer.

- When the mandate is ruled unconstitutional, the entire law is struck down as Congress intended each of its parts to work together.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:45 am

Whatever the decision, the US needs to massively change the way it runs it's healthcare system. Number 38 in the world for life expectancy is terrible considering it's number 1 for expenditure, average cost per person is nearly $8,000 / yr, whereas the citizens of most of the countries ahead of you in life expectancy only pay c. $3,000 / yr. Expressed another way, the health care industry makes up c. 17% of the US GDP, whereas elsewhere it's usually under, or around, 10%. One of the main differences is all the piggies with their snout in the trough. I don't know why any American would want to keep the system as it is. There are reasons I would like to live in the US but I thank god every single day that my home is in a country where healthcare is not for profit.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
There's a bigger question; severability.
[....]
- Mandate is ruled unconstitutional; The Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, but not the power to force a non-buyer to become a buyer.

- When the mandate is ruled unconstitutional, the entire law is struck down as Congress intended each of its parts to work together.

Lack of a clause does not mean that something cannot be severed and survive. It is as easy as I mentioned, the legislature merely creates the "mandate cost" as a tax that is fully avoidable with proof of insurance.

This could easily be done.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19600
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Well whether you support it or not (I agree, healthcare needs a major reform of some sort) don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally? I'm just throwing that question out there before this thread becomes very partisan. It could be the best law in the world, but do we want it going against the Constitution?

The constitution doesn't say anything about this. Generally speaking, most constitutional law has held that if the federal government cannot do something, nor can the states. Since nobody struck down an individual mandate in any state that had one, I'd argue it's constitutional.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
I was always a supporter of the Republican individual mandate concept when they crafted it back in the 90's and am fine with it here.

And what I don't get is how so many so-called "Conservatives" now who are all for "individual responsibility" can be blindly following what is said by the EXACT SAME PEOPLE WHO CAME UP WITH THE IDEA. Romney pretty much wrote this law. Obama cribbed it from him. If this were a college class, Obama would be kicked out for plagiarism. And yet it's Romney now running around saying that this is the worst idea since Naziism. Hey, Mitt! It's YOUR idea!

Don't you understand that the GOP opposition to this has nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with the fact that Obama put the law forward? This is not about the Constitution; this is about how much the GOP hates Obama.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:00 am

My bet is that it is one of the longest documents released by the Supreme Court. Expect an opinion, 4-5 concurring opinions--my bet is on the law being upheld and found constitutional by a vote of 6-3 or 7-2 with Roberts assigning himself the majority opinion so that he can limit the bill as much as possible while still upholding it. Kennedy, Sotomayor, Breyer, Ginsburg and Kagan all join in the judgment but write separately. Alito I think will concur in the judgment, concur in part and dissent in part and write separately. That's a possibility for Kennedy too. Thomas dissents. Scalia most likely dissents although there is a slight possibility of him concurring in the judgment and dissenting in part. And the mandate stays. But that's just my opinion and reading of the Court.

I think Roberts votes in the majority because he understands the public perception of the Court and doesn't want his tenure as C.J. to be seen as completely partisan. If he votes in favour, then he is seen as being more moderate. It also serves to give him more breathing room in other cases to overturn bills that conflict with his agenda--let's not pretend Chief Justices don't have agendas, they all have.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9021
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Will SCOTUS allow the entire law to stand if one part is gutted?

I would be pretty surprised if the entire law is tossed out.

It would basically mean that the Court has re-written current law on issues like pre-existing conditions.

I can See Thomas or Scalia going that route, but believe more realistic Conservatives would gag on going that far.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 10):
the US needs to massively change the way it runs it's healthcare system.

We do a lot of things right, but it isn't that hard to find where we have problems - just follow the money.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
The reality is that the Founding Fathers had no knowledge of the levels of medicine that would be available in Modern America. Nor could it have anticipated the realities of Modern America when it came to the massive costs related to health care, especially when compared to countries that have better outcomes at far less a cost.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
The constitution doesn't say anything about this. Generally speaking, most constitutional law has held that if the federal government cannot do something, nor can the states. Since nobody struck down an individual mandate in any state that had one, I'd argue it's constitutional.

I'm not talking about providing healthcare, I'm talking about the way this bill is, Constitutionally.

My personal opinion, for what it's worth: I think this law is kind of a mess. Some parts of it seem unconsitutional, but I am not a law student. The bill was ambitious, but I think it could have been much much better. I'd be happy to see it struck down and replaced with the GOP's version but... they don't have one! They really dropped the ball IMO.

I don't care if they were for a mandate before and all that jazz, I really don't, it doesn't matter. It's kinda hypocritical but I don't care. What I do care about is their plan. Strike down Obamacare, fine, but replace it with what? If they put together a plan, it probably would NOT pass with this congress, but it could at least show the American people a plan B and if they liked it, vote GOP in November!

What we have now really is a vote for a marginally run (IMO) healthcare bill or a vote to kill it... that is, if the Supreme Court doesn't do so, give us some options, GOP!
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13390
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Lack of a clause does not mean that something cannot be severed and survive. It is as easy as I mentioned, the legislature merely creates the "mandate cost" as a tax that is fully avoidable with proof of insurance.

This could easily be done.

How? SCOTUS doesn't get to write law, just interpret it. They cannot send it back to Congress with a "hey, just add this and it'll be okay" piece.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19600
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:38 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
I don't care if they were for a mandate before and all that jazz, I really don't, it doesn't matter. It's kinda hypocritical but I don't care. What I do care about is their plan. Strike down Obamacare, fine, but replace it with what? If they put together a plan, it probably would NOT pass with this congress, but it could at least show the American people a plan B and if they liked it, vote GOP in November!

Yes, well that would be the reasonable thing to do, wouldn't it?

Instead, they are simply focused on opposing whatever Obama does.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:18 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
The bill was ambitious, but I think it could have been much much better. I'd be happy to see it struck down and replaced with the GOP's version but... they don't have one! They really dropped the ball IMO.

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
What I do care about is their plan. Strike down Obamacare, fine, but replace it with what?

  

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
They cannot send it back to Congress with a "hey, just add this and it'll be okay" piece.

Actually that is exactly what can happen and it does happen all the time when courts review laws. A severability clause is not a required clause in order for a law to have parts "severed", a.k.a. ruled to be not valid (for whatever reason), while the rest of the law still stands. With that said, a severability clause is a good idea as it removes the ability of the courts to just strike the entire law due to one part being ruled against.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:05 am

If Sonya Sotomeyer rules against Obamacare, will the media start calling her a White Latino?
Bring back the Concorde
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13390
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:31 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Since nobody struck down an individual mandate in any state that had one, I'd argue it's constitutional.

Question; did anyone SPECIFICALLY argue that point at a state level?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:52 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
The possible tilt will be Roberts who faces some major decisions. Will he stay with his conservative roots and ensure future invitations to conservative social events, or will he focus the decision without considering the political fallout of being totally independent on this huge issue.

My bet is that Roberts holds the Act together in general terms, with the Mandate in doubt.

Well based on Roberts siding with corporate interests basically 100% of the time IIRC. This gives insurers 50 million more customers and government subsidies for people who can't afford it essentially. Insurance companies don't hate the mandate, what they hate I reckon is that they have to be forced to cover people that will cost them more through no fault of their own.

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
My preference is that the Act stays, but the mandate goes, allowing for a public option that competes with private policies. The private health insurance industry has proven that they are incapable of delivering better care at the same costs - their Medicare Advantage is 15% more expensive than the Medicare.

This is where I find the US unique in the fact that private companies cry foul that the government may provide the same service as a lesser cost basically because the profit motive is not required for a government program and they should be breaking even. If Americans want cost lowered more competition is the best way to do it.

However look at it this way, is it wrong if my competitors shareholders demand a 10% return and my shareholder only want 5%. If costs in this industry are fairly consistent across the board I can simply charge a lower price where my competitor has to lower costs to match my price. This is free market capitalism and this is the best way of reducing costs.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
I was always a supporter of the Republican individual mandate concept when they crafted it back in the 90's and am fine with it here. I guess it could have simply been made it a tax that you could have credited/adjusted with proper proof of eligible insurance coverage.

Basically what every other developed country has. A two-tier single payer option but private insurance is encouraged by the government to make them more efficient and you get a tax credit for it. In Australia its tax time and their are a bunch of ads to show when you file your return that you have private health insurance and your Medicare tax is reduced.

You also can use both systems.

Where I would criticize the Canadian system is the two tier option isn't implemented fully for the fear of people with the cash will jump the queue. It's only a matter of time before it becomes two tier as well and some provinces have started doing it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
We do a lot of things right, but it isn't that hard to find where we have problems - just follow the money.

It's for profit, that is the biggest problem.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
I don't care if they were for a mandate before and all that jazz, I really don't, it doesn't matter. It's kinda hypocritical but I don't care. What I do care about is their plan. Strike down Obamacare, fine, but replace it with what? If they put together a plan, it probably would NOT pass with this congress, but it could at least show the American people a plan B and if they liked it, vote GOP in November!

The GOP won't do anything on this in the next 4 months if it gets struck down. If it does get struck down Obama will have to pass any reform by executive order, no doubt he will try and hopefully he has a nothing to lose attitude to show to the American people that I am trying to solve a problem but congress won't let me.

[Edited 2012-06-28 02:23:16]
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
us330
Posts: 3407
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:53 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
It could be the best law in the world, but do we want it going against the Constitution?

Here's the thing that most people (ie those who haven't been to law school) don't understand about whether something is constitutional or not: it all depends on interpretation and one's theory of the constitution (for example of various theories, wikpedia originalism or textualism). Any lawyer worth their fee should be able to successfully argue that a law is both constitutional and unconstitutional. SCOTUS is not technically bound by prior precedent, and laws that were found to be constitutional by some SCOTUS courts could be found unconstitutional in other SCOTUS eras.

Even legal academia can't agree on whether this law will be found unconstitutional or not.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
I predict that no matter what happens, either conservatives will say the court is run by liberal activists or liberals will say they were bought off lol

Yep. As I've been telling my friends, the easiest job for the next week will be the editor of a newspaper's op-ed page, since that's what's gonna fill the pages for the next week. The only people who will be happy with this decision, no matter which way it comes out, will be the various 24/7 newsmedia pundits who now have a new topic to rant on about for the next month or so.

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 7):
it will come down to Roberts and Kennedy

Roberts will be authoring the majority opinion.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 10):
the US needs to massively change the way it runs it's healthcare system

That's a given.

Quoting texan (Reply 13):
I think Roberts votes in the majority because he understands the public perception of the Court and doesn't want his tenure as C.J. to be seen as completely partisan

Good point. Roberts is very aware that this case is the signature case that will be forever associated with his time as chief justice. Outside influences are not supposed to play a role in determining the Court's opinion, but judges are human--and Roberts realizes that the holding of the case will probably play a role in determining the 2012 election.
This case will likely be perceived as a referendum on the Obama presidency as a whole--which puts the court in a very unusual position.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:57 pm

My two thoughts.
The whole law stands will hinge on Roberts decision on the individual mandate.

Otherwise I see no reason for the rest to be found unconstitutional.



or

SCOTUS takes the easy way out and uses the tax issue to push it off for 3 more years.

T- 2 minutes
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9021
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:15 pm

Roberts has, in effect, sided with the Moderate/Liberal side, which is going to allow the Act to stand.

The "mandate" is tossed, but the taxing of people without insurance is upheld. A sideways upholding of the Act.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:20 pm

CNN is now reporting that the MANDATE PASSED?
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:23 pm

Apparently, the entire law has been upheld.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 26):
rently, the entire law has been upheld.

Yep 5-4 but now I see what happened.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
The "mandate" is tossed, but the taxing of people without insurance is upheld. A sideways upholding of the Act.

Roberts used Congress's power to tax as justification, not the commerce act. Very interesting twist.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:28 pm

Reading comments on every news source and Facebook, I can't help but laugh. Even when the SCOTUS has a conservative majority, people are still bitter and now the SCOTUS is (according to them) another institution taken over by socialists.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 1760
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:29 pm

Sad day for America. This week has shown that we are a country with no laws. You just make up "laws" as you see fit.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9021
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:30 pm

From what I can tell is that the mandate is really a tax based issue. The example given was Flood Insurance. There is no law forcing you to take out flood insurance, but there is a desirable tax provision for those who do.

That leaves up in a situation where you must have insurance to pay a penalty on your tax.

Pre-existing conditions stands

No lifetime limits also stands.

Expansion of Medicaid to cover more poor is STRUCK DOWN

SOme, like pre-existing conditions for children and staying on parents policy to 26 is already upheld.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 28):
Reading comments on every news source and Facebook, I can't help but laugh. Even when the SCOTUS has a conservative majority, people are still bitter and now the SCOTUS is (according to them) another institution taken over by socialists.

And now you see it here

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
Sad day for America. This week has shown that we are a country with no laws. You just make up "laws" as you see fit.

Hilarously false.

It is a ruling made by the Supreme court,
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
Sad day for America. This week has shown that we are a country with no laws. You just make up "laws" as you see fit.

You can thank GWB appointed Activist Judge Roberts...
Step into my office, baby
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:32 pm

I am going to wait a coupke of more hours until more analysis comes in but before really commenting. But it dies seem that a good portion of american freedom and rights died today.

This decisipn is as bad or worse than the emonant domain one a few years back
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5546
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
Sad day for America. This week has shown that we are a country with no laws. You just make up "laws" as you see fit.

Obviously you do not understand the Constitution or how the United States is supposed to work.

Sad.

At least I can hope you are not a citizen and cannot vote.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:49 pm

Here is the whole decision.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf

For those upset, please remember the following as printed in the Decision.

"Today we resolve constitutional challenges to two provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010: the individual mandate, which requires individuals to purchase a health insurance policy providing a minimum level of coverage; and the Medicaid expansion, which gives funds to the States on the condition that they provide specified health care to all citizens whose income falls below a certain threshold. We do not consider whether the Act embodies sound policies. That judgment is entrusted to the Nation’s elected leaders. We ask only whether Congress has the power under the Constitution to enactthe challenged provisions."
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9021
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 28):
people are still bitter and now the SCOTUS is (according to them) another institution taken over by socialists.

People would have been bitter regardless of how the SCOTUS went. Killing the bill in total would have ensured more Americans died under the pre-Act medical environment.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
This week has shown that we are a country with no laws.

Bull. We do have laws enacted by Congress, signed by various Presidents and (when necessary) reviewed by the Supreme Court. Some times it has taken a long time for the politicians to bring us to a more civilized level (such as women's rights and civil rights), but over time we do improve our laws.

The ObamCare approach has been somewhat moderate in order to protect various business entities, like insurance companies, but it has addressed important issues, like pre-existing condition. It also starts to address the issue of people receiving care as a free ride. The mandate did move more people to a level of individual responsibility - which used to be a conservative position.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 32):
You can thank GWB appointed Activist Judge Roberts...

Far better than someone like Thomas or Scalia! Roberts actually brought some moderation to both sides of the Court.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 33):
But it dies seem that a good portion of american freedom and rights died today.

Not in the least. Many Americans have been a bit spoiled in the area of medicine with their employer provided health insurance. And ti has been a tax free ride that has increased our nation debt. Anything that upsets that free ride upsets those who are enjoying it.

Regardless of how that decision had come down an American's access to health care would not have changed (unless, of court you are among the poor - then you're getting the shaft.) There will be no freedoms or rights taken away, but there may be taxes to be paid if you don't have the individual responsibility to ensure you have insurance.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 34):
Obviously you do not understand the Constitution or how the United States is supposed to work.

Recently, I've found that the more stridently someone claims to be a defender of the Constitution, the less they actually know about what the Constitution says.

With that in mind, this phrase does concern me:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
We do not consider whether the Act embodies sound policies. That judgment is entrusted to the Nation’s elected leaders.

I know the Court is just doing their job (and they described their job very well), but entrusting judgement on making sound policy to our current group of elected leaders is...somewhat unsettling.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19600
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 33):
But it dies seem that a good portion of american freedom and rights died today.

Then leave. There are a lot of other countries that won't make you to buy health care. Like India, Sudan, and Iraq.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:13 pm

As I said:

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
But dancing around what is essentially just wording is, to me at least, nuts.

But the best thing to me on this is that now that the law stands, it can be improved. As DeltaMD90 noted, the law could and should be better and I do hope both parties can address the many issues within it. I don't know if that is possible in the divisive atmosphere right now.

Folks, It is just legislation, it can be changed and (as I am sure will be pointed out by both campaigns) repealed. The Republican's need to get their act together and:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
put together a plan, it probably would NOT pass with this congress, but it could at least show the American people a plan B and if they liked it, vote GOP in November!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
I know the Court is just doing their job (and they described their job very well), but entrusting judgement on making sound policy to our current group of elected leaders is...somewhat unsettling.

But that is why we have checks and balances. It is also why we have elections for Government offices , and appointments to the Supreme Court. Once Appointed, judges are there for life regardless of who appointed them. Not many people can remember throughout history who apponted the judges, but they will remember the decisions. Roberts and Kennedy seem so far to go under the realm of an area I like to call legacy judges. They seem to be more concerned with the judicial legacy they leave behind than political leanings. Which is what I think the framers wanted.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
D L X
Posts: 11629
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
entrusting judgement on making sound policy to our current group of elected leaders is...somewhat unsettling.

Can't say much about the particular case, but leaving policy decision to elected leaders is WAAAAAAAY better than leaving it to judges at any level. Judges and Justices have approximately 2-3 months to decide a case, in which the only information that is given to them is extremely partisan in nature. (Partisan as in advocating for a particular position, not Republican or Democrat.) They are not given enough information, nor do they have the staff and sheer manpower to direct policy. That large job should be in the other branches of government, and our system was designed for it to be that way.
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:36 pm

Since the law's full force won't come into effect until 2014, should Obama win a second term along with a Democrat majority in both chambers of Congress, the law should be amended to settle all aspects that the public is unhappy with. It can be done, can't it?

Quoting tugger (Reply 39):
Folks, It is just legislation, it can be changed and (as I am sure will be pointed out by both campaigns) repealed. The Republican's need to get their act together and:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
put together a plan, it probably would NOT pass with this congress, but it could at least show the American people a plan B and if they liked it, vote GOP in November!

What for? Isn't that what Democrats did in 2008? Wasn't that a major reason Obama won in 2008? Now all of a sudden when he comes through with his promises, the people shout repeal. So if the GOP presents a plan B:
1. How do we know it will be executed just as they want?
2. How do we know people actually voted for the GOP rather than against Democrats (two sides of the coin here: when you vote for he other party it's because you are a supporter of their causes or because you are upset with your party's candidate)?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Rara
Posts: 2296
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
This week has shown that we are a country with no laws. You just make up "laws" as you see fit.

Sounds a bit contradictory to me.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5546
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
but entrusting judgement on making sound policy to our current group of elected leaders is...somewhat unsettling.

But that is the limit on the Courts power.

Yes, there are limits to the power of the Supreme Court.

As far as our current group of elected leaders - the people of the United States seem to feel mostly that good leaders are in place - given the number of incumbents in Congress without serious opposition in the primaries or general election.

I disagree. I think the bums should be term limited. But I'm just one voter.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 42):
What for? Isn't that what Democrats did in 2008? Wasn't that a major reason Obama won in 2008? Now all of a sudden when he comes through with his promises, the people shout repeal. So if the GOP presents a plan B:
1. How do we know it will be executed just as they want?
2. How do we know people actually voted for the GOP rather than against Democrats (two sides of the coin here: when you vote for he other party it's because you are a supporter of their causes or because you are upset with your party's candidate)?

I understand that. And we don't know. I get tired of the bloviating and hyperventalating that people do over the healthcare law. If you have a better idea then present it and make the changes. I firmly believe that universal access to healthcare is very important and that the USA must have it. I also think that the current law can be improved. As I said above, my basic criteria are that the law should:

Remove business as the primary bearer of healthcare cost (though they are already extricating themselves from that role due to the cost increases).
Encourage/require competition between healthcare providers and for healthcare customers.
Those using healthcare must bear some direct portion if the costs involved (as that is possible). Whether that is through co-pays or what have you people need to know and understand and be impacted by some level of the cost of that they are doing.
Everyone must have access to some base level of coverage but that does not mean that everything is covered. This is the trickiest line to define but we cannot cover everything for everybody.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 9021
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 39):
But the best thing to me on this is that now that the law stands, it can be improved.

Of course it can, but the GOP is only concerned about repealing the law with some promise of "something better" at "some point in the future".

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 42):

Since the law's full force won't come into effect until 2014

There are important factors in place right now - like pre-existing conditions for kids. In 2014 it will be pre-existing conditions for all.

With luck, after the GOP fails to repeal the Act we might be able to have an intelligent discussion on a non-partisan basis. Hard to believe that can happen, but one can hope.

Quoting tugger (Reply 45):
I firmly believe that universal access to healthcare is very important and that the USA must have it. I also think that the current law can be improved.

We have some token efforts at universal care, like the use of ERs for basic health. Unfortunately universal access needs to be tied to universal payments. Seniors have better access to health care because of their Medicare. A Medicare For All, paid for by a tax, is financially the best way of providing core care for everyone.

Quoting tugger (Reply 45):
Remove business as the primary bearer of healthcare cost (though they are already extricating themselves from that role due to the cost increases).

Bingo!

Putting the burden of nanny care on employers makes us less competitive in the international markets and lowers the employer's ability to hire and retain employees. It is an unnecessary drag on the economy that does not improve the delivery of health care, or the outcomes.

Quoting tugger (Reply 45):
Encourage/require competition between healthcare providers and for healthcare customers.

There is major competition for patients these days. Look around your city or town for advertisements by providers, especially the "non-profit hospitals". These competitive efforts will continue under a Medicare For All system, regardless of the systems for private gap insurance.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19600
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
Of course it can, but the GOP is only concerned about repealing the law with some promise of "something better" at "some point in the future".

I haven't heard about "something better." What I've heard is "America has the best healthcare system in the world!" Trouble is, you can claim that, but you can't produce any objective information to support it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
We have some token efforts at universal care, like the use of ERs for basic health. Unfortunately universal access needs to be tied to universal payments. Seniors have better access to health care because of their Medicare. A Medicare For All, paid for by a tax, is financially the best way of providing core care for everyone.

Yes and no. As a physician, recent experience with the medicare system has made me very leery of single-payor systems in this country.

If there is a single-payor system and then congress suddenly decides to cut physician payments by 30% (or 60% or 90%), we are left without recourse. If BC/BS does that, I can just drop them.

In other countries that seem to have more reasonable politics, it might. However, we are working with a congress that almost defaulted on our debt in spite of the ability to pay it.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 42):
What for? Isn't that what Democrats did in 2008? Wasn't that a major reason Obama won in 2008? Now all of a sudden when he comes through with his promises, the people shout repeal.

I think the issue with many (even many democrats) was not that the law was passed, it was the inner workings and content of the law. What I was saying is the GOP needs to present a better option to go along with the repeal. In fact, instead of repeal they need to replace if anything... if they simply repeal and then come up with "some plan" at "some time" we'll wait another 20 years before anything is passed.

The GOP is really pissing me off. I take anything politicians say with a grain of salt, but even if I were to believe 100% of what they're saying about Obamacare, they have no plan. Really, how hard is it to sit down for an hour and outline something at least tentative? Makes me think that they have a plan... and it sucks... and would never get them elected. Great politicking there...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
stlgph
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:03 pm

One thing is for sure - can't wait for tonight's Daily Show!  
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot], Ken777, N867DA, Yahoo [Bot] and 42 guests