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A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:06 pm

I haven't seen this mentioned since the ObamaCare buzz.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...te-could-become-gop-campaign-fuel/
(Don't like the source? Take two seconds and google news "Eric Holder")

What do you think? Political stunt? Justified? Discuss.

[Edited 2012-06-29 07:12:02]
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dl021
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:19 pm

Justified. He's refusing to provide what the committee is asking for and then went and requested executive privilege to avoid turning over the requested information. He's trying outlast the committee.
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casinterest
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:25 pm

This thread pretty much sums up most feeling.

Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious (by slider Jun 20 2012 in Non Aviation)


It is a witch hunt. Nothing more. Bunch of political frauds in the GOP and a couple of NRA compromised Democrat reps voting for the GOP to continue to do what it does best. Nothing that matters.
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D L X
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 1):
He's refusing to provide what the committee is asking for

Separation of powers. Congress is not entitled to everything it asks for.

This is a political stunt. What's worse is that it's a stunt that has no teeth.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:42 pm

The entire Obama administration holds the US population in contempt and so does Congress. I say this is the pot calling the kettle black.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:16 pm

Well fast and furious was pretty stupid (don't care if President Bush or whoever started it.) Why withhold the information?

I know the GOP is having a field day with it, but I think they may have a point here, even if this is (maybe) just for political reasons
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Dreadnought
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):

Separation of powers. Congress is not entitled to everything it asks for.

Congressional oversight rights are implicit in the Constitution, and formalized in law. The Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946, explicitly called for “legislative oversight” in public law. It directed House and Senate standing committees “to exercise continuous watchfulness” over programs and agencies under their jurisdiction.

The Legislative Reorganization Act of 1970 authorized each standing committee to “review and study, on a continuing basis, the application, administration and execution” of laws under its jurisdiction.

Government Performance and Results Act of 1993 requires agencies to consult with Congress on their strategic plans and report annually on performance plans, goals, and results, as well as Inspector General reports from each agency on fraud, abuse, waste etc.

The GAO (Government Accountability Office) was specially put together to assist Congress in their oversight duties.

Congress can see anything it damn well pleases, with the exception of certain things under executive privilege - discussed in another thread. Even things classified Top Secret or higher must be available to key congressional members.
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Ken777
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
This is a political stunt. What's worse is that it's a stunt that has no teeth.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Congress can see anything it damn well pleases, with the exception of certain things under executive privilege - discussed in another thread. Even things classified Top Secret or higher must be available to key congressional members.

Congress does have the rights to see a lot from the Executive Branch (and the Judicial Branch, if you think about it.)

As far as classified material goes a Senator or Congressman doe not have special rights to publicly disclose that information, In doing so that politician should effectively have ALL security clearances pulled

Quote:

The May 24 letter to Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), ranking member on the panel, quotes from and describes in detail a secret wiretap application that has become a point of debate in the GOP’s “Fast and Furious” gun-walking probe.
The wiretap applications are under court seal, and releasing such information to the public would ordinarily be illegal.

But Issa appears to be protected by the Speech or Debate Clause in the Constitution, which offers immunity for Congressional speech, especially on a chamber’s floor.
http://www.rollcall.com/news/darrell...ons_in_congressional-215828-1.html

Reminds me of Cheney's office outing a CIA agent.

In terms of the whole Fast & Furious issue, there is a pretty good article on Fortune's site.

Quote:


Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

853 Federally Registered Firearms Dealers in Phoenix alone.

That has to make the NRA smile.

That makes it pretty clear that the ATF has zero chance of stopping the flow of weapons into Mexico. The 2nd Amendment will ensure that flow will continue and the 2nd Amendment will not be "changed" to address the issue.

That basically means we should stop worrying about the problem. One agent, unfortunately killed, doesn't matter. It is just a political game.

Regardless, we really don't need an irresponsible politician exposing ongoing investigations, or exposing names of people providing information to investigations. Issa has proved that he is not trustworthy for even a Confidential security clearance. At least not by the standards in place when I served - and had a clearance.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
As far as classified material goes a Senator or Congressman doe not have special rights to publicly disclose that information, In doing so that politician should effectively have ALL security clearances pulled

Is anyone talking about having to publicly disclose the requested documents? Anyone? No hands up? We are talking about disclosing information to the duly constituted congressional oversight committee.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):

Reminds me of Cheney's office outing a CIA agent.

If you had been reading a decent newspaper, you might have learned that it was someone in the State department who did that.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:24 am

Can anyone answer why they would withhold documents? Any good reason? (it's a question, I honestly don't know.) Not trying to be partisan at all, I'm leery of a lot the Republicans do. Hopefully the reason is "well GWB did this so President Obama can..."
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Ken777
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Is anyone talking about having to publicly disclose the requested documents?

Issa has already demonstrated that he cannot be trusted with any level of classified material. Those involved in the investigations (including "sources") don't need some third rate politician putting them in danger.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
you might have learned that it was someone in the State department who did that.

And it didn't come from Cheney's office?         

Why do you think he worked so hard to keep his guy out of prison - and later a pardon from W?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Can anyone answer why they would withhold documents?

You can start with a major gun running effort in Phoenix and the ATF being severely because we have a 2nd Amendment that makes it very legal for licensed dealers to sell 18 year olds a lot of guns, that will end up in Mexico.

The 2nd Amendment will not change and the ATF cannot treat legally sold guns like illegally sold drugs. That is their restriction. The last thing we need is a GOP wet dream of exposing sources on the House floor.

And, in reality, we do need to honor the Separation of Powers and the right to Executive Privilege. The GOP has lost the reality of the situation, where they will be exposed to the same games for years to come.

Then we have the games at various levels. The Fortune article linked is pretty good at defining the reality and the political games.

Oooops! Forgot the link in Reply 7:

Quote:

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...-and-furious-truth/?iid=SF_F_River
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:01 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
And it didn't come from Cheney's office?

Nope.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
Why do you think he worked so hard to keep his guy out of prison - and later a pardon from W?

First of all, Scooter Libby's prosecution was way excessive - particularly when the prosecutor already know that Richard Armitage at the State Department was the source of the leak.

Secondly, Libby never got a pardon. His sentence was commuted. Big difference.
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Revelation
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:36 pm

And as expected:

Quote:

Attorney General Eric Holder won’t be prosecuted for failing to provide the U.S. House with documents lawmakers requested about a federal gun operation, the Justice Department said.

The department’s decision, described in a letter to U.S. House Speaker John Boehner, came after the House voted yesterday to cite Holder for contempt.

...

Holder’s response to lawmakers’ subpoena doesn’t constitute a crime, said Deputy Attorney General James Cole in a letter yesterday to Boehner, an Ohio Republican. President Barack Obama has asserted executive privilege over the documents and declined to turn them over.

The Justice Department’s longstanding position is that it won’t prosecute executive branch officials for withholding documents after a president asserts privilege.

Ref: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-withholding-gun-documents-2-.html

So the whole thing was dead the minute the president asserted privilege.

The rest was just political theater.

For better or for worse, the Supreme Court has given the politicians their next soapbox and the political junkies their next fix, and this is now officially Old News.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
You can start with a major gun running effort in Phoenix and the ATF being severely because we have a 2nd Amendment that makes it very legal for licensed dealers to sell 18 year olds a lot of guns, that will end up in Mexico.

The 2nd Amendment will not change and the ATF cannot treat legally sold guns like illegally sold drugs. That is their restriction. The last thing we need is a GOP wet dream of exposing sources on the House floor.

And, in reality, we do need to honor the Separation of Powers and the right to Executive Privilege. The GOP has lost the reality of the situation, where they will be exposed to the same games for years to come.

Then we have the games at various levels. The Fortune article linked is pretty good at defining the reality and the political games.

So I'm not really getting that... withhold information because it might be politically good for the "other side?" I hope I'm not reading that correctly because that's kind of weak...
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Ken777
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
Secondly, Libby never got a pardon. His sentence was commuted. Big difference.

Cheney got Bush to commute Libby's sentence so he would not go to prison and vigorously tried to gets full pardon so Libby could go back to practicing law. That was too much of a push for Bush, which did upset Cheney a bit.  
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
withhold information because it might be politically good for the "other side?"

We know that this problem of guns moving from Phoenix to Mexico is long term. The Bush Administration had their Fast & Furious type programs in the past and there will be similar programs in the future. Going back to the Fortune article:

Quote:

Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

How many cities around that size will have 850+ gun dealers?

And there is another issue:

Quote:

The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

With 2,000 guns a day you are looking at close to three quarters of a million guns a year - 730,000. That is a lot of sales and it will have an impact on gun manufacturing. Gun companies have a strong financial reason to keep up this volume of "legal sales" and the NRA is their friend in maintaining sales. The limitations the ATF faces makes that clear. - the lack of an electronic data base makes that clear.

While the ATF tasks may be difficult they still need to have some of the facilities to try to do their job. The Fortune article makes it clear that prosecutors are exceptionally sensitive to the rights (especially 2nd Amendments) of the gun buyers.
That sensitivity will continue to allow 2,000 guns to cross the border every day.
 
N174UA
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:32 pm

Not one mention of Brian Terry, who was murdered as a result of this program. Where is the justice for him and his family?

If there was truly nothing to hide, then why not just share all of the documents? Why the need for Executive privilege?
 
Ken777
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 15):

Not one mention of Brian Terry, who was murdered as a result of this program. Where is the justice for him and his family?

There has been a lot of mentions of Terry - especially from Republicans who want to hold him up for political advantage.

That is the GOP game. They'll go on and on - as long as they get media coverage and can leverage it in the election.

But you will never see the Republicans make any move to change the way the game is played in Phoenix. Not with 730,00 weapons per year generating sales for dealers and manufacturers.

Reality is the ONLY way we know that the guns that killed Agent Terry was the list of serial numbers that other agents had hand written down. The GOP/IRA ensured it was illegal to have an electronic database of guns sold. No telling how many Americans have died (or will die in the future) without a way to reference the source of the guns from Phoenix.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 15):
If there was truly nothing to hide, then why not just share all of the documents?

The House has thousands of pages of documents specifically focused on the incident and the program, going back to the Bush Years.

There are legitimate reasons to hold back documents the Executive Branch considers sensitive to the investigation - especially when you have politicians already disclosing classified information to the public.
 
N174UA
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:24 pm

No mention of Brian Terry in this entire thread. Until I mentioned it, he was completely forgotten.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
The House has thousands of pages of documents specifically focused on the incident and the program, going back to the Bush Years.

Yet AG Holder denied the link to the Bush Administration: http://washingtonexaminer.com/holder...t-fast-and-furious/article/2500157
 
Ken777
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 17):
Yet AG Holder denied the link to the Bush Administration:

The single F & F was not from the Bush Administration, but programs were used. Do you really believe that the Bush Administration went 8 years without trying to address the problem?
 
D L X
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Congressional oversight rights are implicit in the Constitution, and formalized in law.

Please cite to the clause in the constitution that supports your argument.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Congress can see anything it damn well pleases

False.
 
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casinterest
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:56 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 17):
No mention of Brian Terry in this entire thread. Until I mentioned it, he was completely forgotten.

Because other than a bunch of dumb policiticans news outlets like fox news, he is not relevent to the current issue. He died, and all the documents leading to his death are already part of the record. He died doing his job, and it isn't clear at all that he would have had any other outcome without fast and furios. The only documents Issa wants are the ones that show the Justice department and ATF trying to figure out what exactly happened AFTER they shut down fast and furious.
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fr8mech
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
How many cities around that size will have 850+ gun dealers?

I know 4 FFL holders that are considered dealers who do not sell firearms as a business. They have FFL's in order o buy and/or sell firearms from their personal collections without going through a FFL. The number of FFL's in a particular area means nothing.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
With 2,000 guns a day you are looking at close to three quarters of a million guns a year - 730,000. That is a lot of sales and it will have an impact on gun manufacturing.

YOu know, I saw this number last year, when we discussed Fast and Furious when the news first broke and the Mexican government was blaming te NRA for the violence on its side of the border. I can't find the thread (stupid search engine), but I followed the references in the various studies' reference pages and found that this 2000/day number was 'reported' by the Mexican government with no backup data.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
Attorney General Eric Holder won’t be prosecuted for failing to provide the U.S. House with documents lawmakers requested about a federal gun operation, the Justice Department said.

I just visited Washington DC and took a tour that went past (or is it passed?) the Watergate Hotel and the tour guide went on and on about how no one in our government is above the law...
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D L X
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
I just visited Washington DC and took a tour that went past (or is it passed?) the Watergate Hotel and the tour guide went on and on about how no one in our government is above the law...

That is very true, but in this case, the GOP is saying Holder broke a law that doesn't exist.

Kind of hard to compare this to breaking and entering.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
So the whole thing was dead the minute the president asserted privilege.

It was dead that the Department of justice, asked to prosecute Holder, is under Holder's control. He is clearly above the law as far as he thinks.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
this is now officially Old News

No, it's not. It should very much be a subject in campaigns this fall, that this is an administration that does not feel itself accountable to anyone.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
YOu know, I saw this number last year, when we discussed Fast and Furious when the news first broke and the Mexican government was blaming te NRA for the violence on its side of the border. I can't find the thread (stupid search engine), but I followed the references in the various studies' reference pages and found that this 2000/day number was 'reported' by the Mexican government with no backup data.

It's bogus, just like that claim from Obama, Hillary Clinton and other administration officials that "90% of all Mexican gang guns are from the US". In reality, Mexico only sends us the serial numbers on recovered guns if the guns appear to have US manufacturing marks. So the real claim should have been "90% of US guns recovered in Mexico come from the US". Well duh... The rest come from China, Russia, Cuba, Singapore etc. The real number is somewhere between 17 and 36%. http://www.factcheck.org/politics/counting_mexicos_guns.html
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Mir
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
For better or for worse, the Supreme Court has given the politicians their next soapbox and the political junkies their next fix, and this is now officially Old News.

It was old news the moment they held the vote on it the same day as the healthcare decision. If they really wanted to make something of this, they'd have rescheduled it. Instead, it got buried.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 17):
No mention of Brian Terry in this entire thread. Until I mentioned it, he was completely forgotten.

This is going to sound harsh, but his death, while tragic, doesn't mean all that much in relation to the program. I don't think anyone takes into account how the gun they'll be using was obtained when they're deciding who they'll shoot with it. The Mexican drug and crime cartels have not had a problem obtaining guns for a while now (longer than the gunwalking programs have been in effect), and to say that his death would have been prevented had the program not been in place is making rather a big stretch. It's likely he would have been shot anyway, just with a different gun.

As is common with these things, his death is being politicized to make it seem like it's how he died that's the crime rather than the fact that he died at all. Which I find quite insulting, actually - it's almost as if people are saying "we don't care if you shoot our border agents as long as you don't use US-sourced guns to do it". I'd rather not have our border agents shot at all.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
It was dead that the Department of justice, asked to prosecute Holder, is under Holder's control. He is clearly above the law as far as he thinks.

The DoJ's policy of not prosecuting once executive privilege has been invoked goes back longer than Obama's tenure. So I don't see how you can pin this on his administration specifically.

-Mir
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seb146
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
The only documents Issa wants are the ones that show the Justice department and ATF trying to figure out what exactly happened AFTER they shut down fast and furious.

Those documents would probably show names of agents and would be eligable for executive privlige. Except the right would have everyone believe otherwise. Like there is a huge scandal. The program happened. No one is denying that. Weapons were lost. No one is denying that. Agents were killed. No one is denying that. So, what's the problem?

Oh, that's right: Obama is still president.
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Dreadnought
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
Those documents would probably show names of agents and would be eligable for executive privlige. Except the right would have everyone believe otherwise. Like there is a huge scandal. The program happened. No one is denying that. Weapons were lost. No one is denying that. Agents were killed. No one is denying that. So, what's the problem?

The questions to be answered are: Who approved the operation, Who decided to pull pull surveillance from the monitored guns (whistle-blowers have testified about being on the stakeout and being told to drop it and go home), and when the crap hit the fan, who was involved in trying to cover up the whole mess. We already know that the DOJ lied about this being a local operation and that Washington had nothing to do with it. We want to know who lied and thought it would be a bright idea to lie about it to Congress.
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fr8mech
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
That is very true, but in this case, the GOP is saying Holder broke a law that doesn't exist

He has refused to provide Congress with the information it demands. Congress does have oversight duties, as implied in the Constitution and through legislative action.

He was held in contempt for refusing to turn over documents pertaining to Fast and Furious. These documents may, or may not, provide evidence of crimes being committed or a cover-up for those crimes or a cover-up of a badly mismanaged and/or executed operation.

You guys don't think this is part of oversight?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
Weapons were lost.

Weapons weren't lost, they were allowed to be carried into Mexico where there was no plan or apparatus in place to track them further...because the Mexican government was not informed. It sounds like that part of the operation worked as planned.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
Oh, that's right: Obama is still president.

Nope, the problem is that Mr. Holder is still Attorney General.

[Edited 2012-07-02 08:57:49]
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EricR
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:57 pm

The first thing that came to mind when I read the title of the thread (without reading anything else) was that this decision means nothing because Obama will pardon him.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
Why do you think he worked so hard to keep his guy out of prison - and later a pardon from W?
Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
It is a witch hunt. Nothing more. Bunch of political frauds in the GOP and a couple of NRA compromised Democrat reps voting for the GOP to continue to do what it does best. Nothing that matters.



Please.....this happens in both parties. Whether the administration is DEM or GOP, the opposite party always tries to dig up dirt and then hold congressional hearings on illegal or mismanaged actions of the other party. This is a political game that happens all the time on both sides. You need to take off your blinders if you believe this only happens with one party and not the other. The Democrats are no better than the Republicans in this respect.
 
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casinterest
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
The questions to be answered are: Who approved the operation,

Umm those would be in the documents from when the operation was approved, not when it concluded.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Who decided to pull pull surveillance from the monitored guns (whistle-blowers have testified about being on the stakeout and being told to drop it and go home),

Before the operation concluded

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
who was involved in trying to cover up the whole mess

You are assuming there was a cover up. This is the essence of the witch hunt.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
We already know that the DOJ lied about this being a local operation and that Washington had nothing to do with it.

We don;t have a clue. You are assuming the lie just as Issa is. Even so, all the documents prior to the operation shut down , should show who knew and when. Anything after the date is just trying to clear it up.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
We want to know who lied and thought it would be a bright idea to lie about it to Congress.

They wouldn't know the truth if it danced in front of them. Plus, the lies should be able to be shown from documents PRIOR to the shutdown. Those documents which Issa has should give him the people and the reasoning for requesting data from AFTER the operation. So far Issa and his little tribe of know nothings are just pulling a political stunt and they know it.
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Ken777
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
It was dead that the Department of justice, asked to prosecute Holder, is under Holder's control.

I doubt you will find a federal prosecutor who is willing to significantly diminish EP. And the reality is that the more mature & intelligent Republicans are going to be wary of diminishing EP in any way that will harm them when they are in the WHite House.


Issa basically is being penny wise and pound foolish.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
It should very much be a subject in campaigns this fall,

Be careful what you with for. There are multiple stories to be told here and the Fortune story puts some major stories right out there.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
He was held in contempt for refusing to turn over documents pertaining to Fast and Furious. These documents may, or may not, provide evidence of crimes being committed or a cover-up for those crimes or a cover-up of a badly mismanaged and/or executed operation.

And the documents man, or may not, contain sensitive information on ongoing investigations, or other information that should not be made public. Issa has already proven that he cannot be trusted with classified information.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
You guys don't think this is part of oversight?

If there is information that needs to be shared with Congress and the senior GOP member (Issa) cannot be trusted with sensitive information then there are other, more responsible, committees that can review the information or documents.
 
D L X
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
He has refused to provide Congress with the information it demands. Congress does have oversight duties, as implied in the Constitution and through legislative action.

Congress is not entitled to anything and everything it demands. If you can find that in the Constitution, I'd like to see it.
 
fr8mech
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
Congress is not entitled to anything and everything it demands. If you can find that in the Constitution, I'd like to see it.

It is implied in the Constitution where it gives Congress the purse strings over government. You don't really expect the Founders provided Congress with the ability to fund government and not be able to see where and how that money is spent, do you?

This implied power has been codified in the US Code. Congress not only has the right, but it has an obligation to provide oversight.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 29):

We don;t have a clue. You are assuming the lie just as Issa is. Even so, all the documents prior to the operation shut down , should show who knew and when. Anything after the date is just trying to clear it up.

The documents generated after the operation was concluded will provide information as to whether there was an effort to cover up the intent of the operation, the results of the operation and what agency or agencies were involved; and what the administrators of those agencies may have known about the operation before it ran, while it ran and after it shut down.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
Issa has already proven that he cannot be trusted with classified information.

Source? If he can't be trusted, then the information should be presented to another member and Issa removed from the chairmanship. I don't hear Democrats calling for that. I don't hear Holder saying that he won't turn the stuff over to Issa because he can't be trusted.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
If there is information that needs to be shared with Congress and the senior GOP member (Issa) cannot be trusted with sensitive information then there are other, more responsible, committees that can review the information or documents.

Again, then turn all the documents over to that committee.
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casinterest
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
The documents generated after the operation was concluded will provide information as to whether there was an effort to cover up the intent of the operation,

Is issa passing out Tin Foil Hats? an effort to cover it up vs a real cover up?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
after it shut down.

This is the only thing those docs will show, and that is akin to someone saying they knew the winner of the kentucky derby after the race was run. You have no clue what they knew prior without the data from before the incident. Issa has that data, and has yet to produce a document that indicates that the docs from after the incident are necessary.

It is a witch hunt. Why should internal deliberations over what occurred AFTER the operation concluded be necessary for Congress?
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 33):
It is a witch hunt. Why should internal deliberations over what occurred AFTER the operation concluded be necessary for Congress?

Because, since this operation went well (guns moved south as envisioned) and went bad (ATF agent killed) we, The People, should know who put the operation together and what their thinking was.

We need to know what the intent of the operation was. We need to know what Mr. Holder, and now, President Obama are trying to cover up, if anything.

The only way to get this information is to have the documents that generated and approved this operation, the documents generated during the operation, and the documents that deal with the aftermath of this operation.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 33):
an effort to cover it up vs a real cover up?

We all know the cover up is usually a lot more damaging than the event.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
It is implied in the Constitution where it gives Congress the purse strings over government.

"Implied" in the Constitution? And what Executive Powers are "implied" in the Constitution?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
Source?

Already gave it to you in an earlier post, but here it is again.

Quote:

Darrell Issa Puts Details of Secret Wiretap Applications in Congressional Record
http://www.rollcall.com/news/darrell...ons_in_congressional-215828-1.html

Makes you understand why the Executive Branch is unwilling to hand too much stuff over fleabag politicians who cannot be trusted with sensitive and/or classified materials.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 33):
It is a witch hunt.

Of course it is. I've seen that Yo-Yo Issa on TV being questioned by someone who is not playing lapdog and the guy cannot answer a direct question. He just got back to sound bites. The journalist was actually laughing at the crap he was putting out.
 
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
And what Executive Powers are "implied" in the Constitution?

The power to issue executive orders, for one.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Makes you understand why the Executive Branch is unwilling to hand too much stuff over fleabag politicians who cannot be trusted with sensitive and/or classified materials.

So, you're saying that Congress should not have oversight? Or that the administration, ANY administration can claim 'national security' and withhold documents and information?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Already gave it to you in an earlier post, but here it is again.

It's a shame he had to release that information and he should be sanctioned for it. But, what did he reveal:

Holder and Cummings have both maintained that the wiretap applications did not contain such details and that the applications were reviewed narrowly for probable cause, not for whether any investigatory tactics contained followed Justice Department policy.

and

The wiretap applications were signed by senior DOJ officials in the department’s criminal division, including Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein, Deputy Assistant Attorney General Kenneth Blanco and another official who is now deceased.

Let's see...the applications detailed information the Mr. Holder claimed they did not and they were signed by senior DoJ officials. I thought Mr. Holder claimed it was a local operation without DoJ sanction.

Here's a fairly biased commentary and political video. Take the 7 minutes:

http://videos.allinnra.com/operation-fast-furious.aspx
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
It is implied in the Constitution where it gives Congress the purse strings over government.

And if this issue were about how the DOJ was spending its money, you'd have a point. But it is not a case about spending excess. It is a witch hunt. And Congress doesn't have that power.
 
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Because, since this operation went well (guns moved south as envisioned) and went bad (ATF agent killed) we, The People, should know who put the operation together and what their thinking was.

OK. Let's start with the programs from the Bush/Cheney Years, flowing into the programs of the Obama Era.

We can get a good understanding of the Obama Years from the Fortune. We just need to dig into the Bush/Cheney Years to understand the start of this type of programs.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
We need to know what the intent of the operation was.

From the Fortune article linked above:

Quote:

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 36):
So, you're saying that Congress should not have oversight? Or that the administration, ANY administration can claim 'national security' and withhold documents and information?

Compared to Issa there is little doubt in my mind that Administrations are far more responsible. (Excluding, of course, Cheney's involvement in the outing of a CIA agent.)

I'm saying that the Executive and Legislative branches are equal. One tries to play game against the other for political reasons, but we certainly don't need Congress to play an oversight game that isn't really related to oversight.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 36):
It's a shame he had to release that information and he should be sanctioned for it. But, what did he reveal:

No way will a GOP majority in the House sanction a fleabag like Issa. SOme of the more respected members may gag at the guy's disclosure, but they won't lift a finger against him.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 36):
Let's see...the applications detailed information the Mr. Holder claimed they did not and they were signed by senior DoJ officials.

And that might well have been his understanding when he said it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 36):
I thought Mr. Holder claimed it was a local operation without DoJ sanction.

The Fortune article I linked earlier pretty well indicates that it was a "local" operation. That has been no surprise there at all.
 
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:46 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
We can get a good understanding of the Obama Years from the Fortune. We just need to dig into the Bush/Cheney Years to understand the start of this type of programs.

Let's dig. If something illegal was done, let's find out. If it goes to Bush/Cheney or Clinton/Gore, let's find out. I think it stops at Holder. The other operations cited all had the permission of the Mexican government. This operation was run without the knowledge of the Mexican government/authorities. I'm really not even sure what this operation was supposed to develop. If the firearms could not be tracked across the border, why was it run?

These are some of the questions that must be answered. And Mr. Holder is obstructing the process of finding these things out.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
And that might well have been his understanding when he said it.

Kinda like 'I have no recollection' of that Senator? Or, 'it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is'?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
The Fortune article I linked earlier pretty well indicates that it was a "local" operation. That has been no surprise there at all.

Then how did the warrents come to be signed by 'senior DoJ officials'?

The Fortune article contains some inconsistancies.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/a-different-take-on-fast-furious/

Another summary:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obam...t-weapons-ban-ran-fast-and-furious

[Edited 2012-07-02 18:51:06]
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ltbewr
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:48 am

The NRA is targeting A.G. Holder out of fear he will go after the Arizona gun dealers who sold the guns that ended up on Mexico by revoking their licenses or seeking criminal charges on license holders. Some Republicans also want to put political pressure on Holder to back off any attempts to go after gun dealers or owners as are 2nd Amendment absolutists as are too many of their supporters as well as going after states trying to put in questionable 'voter ID' laws.

Congressional committees should really be going after as to guns to change the laws to make less access of guns for resale to others and dealers who are sloppy as to enforcing the laws.
 
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Makes you understand why the Executive Branch is unwilling to hand too much stuff over fleabag politicians who cannot be trusted with sensitive and/or classified materials.

You will have to excuse me but just in the last few weeks have we not had serious, serious national security leaks published in the NY Times that have come directly from the Whitehouse and quite possibly from the President himself.
I thought so.

Okie
 
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 40):
The NRA is targeting A.G. Holder out of fear he will go after the Arizona gun dealers who sold the guns that ended up on Mexico by revoking their licenses or seeking criminal charges on license holders

The gun dealers are 'off the hook' because the ATF told them to go ahead with the sales, regardless of their (the dealer's) reservations. That is on the record.
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:05 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
If something illegal was done, let's find out.

Considering that it is illegal to maintain an electronic database on serial numbers I think the big thing is to ensure that the agents only entered those serial numbers on a piece of paper, hopefully using their own pens and pieces of paper. Far too much danger from the NRA to use government pens.  
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
These are some of the questions that must be answered.

Lord knows that these questions are far more important than improving the economy, or lowering unemployment, or moving medical research forward, moving out of Afghanistan, etc.


Quoting ltbewr (Reply 40):
The NRA is targeting A.G. Holder out of fear he will go after the Arizona gun dealers who sold the guns that ended up on Mexico by revoking their licenses or seeking criminal charges on license holders.

I think the NRA is simply pissed at Holder, even though Federal Prosecutors in Phoenix were ultra conservative when working with the ATF agents. I was a more amazed at the timidity of the prosecutors in the Fortune article than about anything else.
 
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
This thread pretty much sums up most feeling.

Obama Claims Executive Privilege W Fast & Furious (by slider Jun 20 2012 in Non Aviation)


It is a witch hunt. Nothing more. Bunch of political frauds in the GOP and a couple of NRA compromised Democrat reps voting for the GOP to continue to do what it does best. Nothing that matters.



This single post sums up perfecty what US Republican politics has been for eternity. You sir, deserve a cigar!
All previous administrations (most notably Republican under Bush) have never been called out for allowing this to continue yet as soon as theres a Black Democratic President in power with a Black Attorney General the GOP find it mysteriously necessary to request documents relating to weapons disappearing into Mexico. This after the many many republican years in which it all began and prosperred without even a blink of a moral eye from the republicans themselves.

This vote is the kind of cheap political witch-hunt the Republicans have become known for.
 
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
The gun dealers are 'off the hook' because the ATF told them to go ahead with the sales, regardless of their (the dealer's) reservations.

The definition of entrapment.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Makes you understand why the Executive Branch is unwilling to hand too much stuff over fleabag politicians who cannot be trusted with sensitive and/or classified materials.

Are you suggesting that just because something is classified, it contains information sensitive to national security?

I guess if you believe that having politically embarrassing or illegal acts known to the populace, that would be true.

The Executive Branch does not get to unilaterally decide what's "best for the country". Otherwise, we might as well just abolish the other two branches and turn into a totalitarian society.
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casinterest
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 45):
The Executive Branch does not get to unilaterally decide what's "best for the country". Otherwise, we might as well just abolish the other two branches and turn into a totalitarian society.

They can when the legislative branch can't produce anything related to the reason for those documents other than
"we think we will find somehting" . Espcially when 90% of their arguments for requesting them should be available in the documents they already have.


But leave it to "Small Governement" congressmen to waste money and resources on items without solid proof.

Weapons of Mass Destruction, Invading peoples personal lives, going on witch hunts with little evidence, complaining about the unconstitutional health care plans prior to the supreme court declaring it constitutional. ....... ......

The thing that pisses me off the most about this investigation is the following..

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
The gun dealers are 'off the hook' because the ATF told them to go ahead with the sales, regardless of their (the dealer's) reservations. That is on the record.

Reservations from a capitalist gun owner?

For every 10 good ones, there will be at least 1 or 2 that will deal on the shady side just because of the almighty dollar.
Plus the fact that you don't need squat to buy one.

http://politicalcorrection.org/blog/201101310006

"According to the indictment, ATF officials determined that more than 600 of the 700 guns purchased by the network had come from a single U.S. gun store, Lone Wolf Trading Co. in Glendale, Ariz., a Phoenix suburb. Lone Wolf was not charged with any wrongdoing.

Last year, The Post reported that Lone Wolf ranked first among U.S. stores with the most guns traced to Mexican crime scenes, with 185 firearms traced to Mexico over a two-year period.

"
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fr8mech
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 45):
The Executive Branch does not get to unilaterally decide what's "best for the country". Otherwise, we might as well just abolish the other two branches and turn into a totalitarian society.


Which is the argument I was making in the executive order and DREAM thread.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 45):
The definition of entrapment.


True, but what are you going to do. The dealer covered his ass with documents and tapes and went to the press when he felt he needed to.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 46):
For every 10 good ones, there will be at least 1 or 2 that will deal on the shady side just because of the almighty dollar.
Plus the fact that you don't need squat to buy one.


One dealer in the Phoenix area does not make 10%-20%. The dealer mentioned in the article should be investigated and prosecuted if it can be proved that he did wrong.
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casinterest
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 47):
One dealer in the Phoenix area does not make 10%-20%. The dealer mentioned in the article should be investigated and prosecuted if it can be proved that he did wrong.

They have found the same problem at Gun Shows and dealers all over. Mine was a generalization ,but they do exist.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 47):
Which is the argument I was making in the executive order and DREAM thread.

But neither does Congress get to force the executive branch to do whatever they want. It's a two way street and the self rightous witch hunters don't own it.
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RE: A.G. Holder Found In Contempt

Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
If something illegal was done, let's find out.

From what I understand, the documents that are out already say everything that was done. The ones Issa wants are the ones that simply give a summary of what happened after the fact. Guns were lost, agents were killed. We know that. Why does Issa need to know something we all already know? Two words: witch hunt.
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