User avatar
STT757
Topic Author
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Silver Line Coming To IAD

Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:38 pm

Quote:
After months of uncertainty, the future of Metro’s Silver Line is clear: rail is coming to Dulles International Airport and Loudoun County.

The Loudoun County Board of Supervisors voted 5-4 Tuesday morning to support the second phase of the Silver Line construction, which will bring Metrorail to Dulles Airport and to two planned stations in eastern Loudoun.

About time, the second phase to IAD and Loudoun county was being held up. This vote clears the way for the second phase, final, phase to go forward with construction.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...e/2012/07/03/gJQAUdqhKW_story.html

I'm not exactly thrilled with the station's placement at IAD, but it's better than nothing.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
eastern747
Posts: 578
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:34 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:25 pm

When I began at DCA with Eastern, my training took place at IAD. There was nothing, LITERALLY NOTHING between the beltway and IAD. The last time I was there I saw that is not the case now.It is ironic that at the time there was a rain line from the city out to IAD and beyond as part of the old rain system. They used it in fact to get material out there for construction. After the airport was finished, the line was torn up......No crystal balls at the time, although if it had been upgraded and developed then, just imagine how the area and airport would have grown much sooner.
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting STT757 (Thread starter):
I'm not exactly thrilled with the station's placement at IAD, but it's better than nothing.

My sentiments exactly! As much as I believe the underground station is a better long-term solution, I long ago came around to the view that we need to take what we can get with Metro to IAD.
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 1):
No crystal balls at the time, although if it had been upgraded and developed then, just imagine how the area and airport would have grown much sooner.

How true that is. With a little bit of foresight in the 70s (after the demise of the W&OD Railrway), there would be a passenger line directly from Alexandria to Vienna, Reston, Herndon, Dulles, Leesburg and Purcellville. Instead, it's now a bike trail (which is nice, of course, but does nothing to ease the traffic problems of the area).
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:24 pm

Can you imagine what would have happened if the Silver Line *ended* at Washington-Dulles and then tens of thousands of Loudoun County commuters tried to take every available parking spot at the airport?

Not a pretty thought for airport users (btw, what is past the Purple lot?   )
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2238
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:28 pm

What a relief! This is so long overdue. I will be so glad for this to be completed!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
zanl188
Posts: 3436
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting N202PA (Reply 3):
With a little bit of foresight in the 70s (after the demise of the W&OD Railrway), there would be a passenger line directly from Alexandria to Vienna, Reston, Herndon, Dulles, Leesburg and Purcellville. Instead, it's now a bike trail (which is nice, of course, but does nothing to ease the traffic problems of the area).

An awesome bike trail by the way... When I lived in the DC area I routinely rode from the Mall all the way out to Dulles and back... Complete with bike shops along the way...
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Can you imagine what would have happened if the Silver Line *ended* at Washington-Dulles and then tens of thousands of Loudoun County commuters tried to take every available parking spot at the airport?

They could have just put a big parking garage at the stop before Dulles. People will drive an extra five minutes over paying for airport parking.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
zippyjet
Posts: 5077
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting STT757 (Thread starter):

   I couldn't agree with you more. This should have happened 30 years ago. And, there is rumor bandied about that the DC Metro will extend to BWI! This too would be an excellent move.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:45 am

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 1):
When I began at DCA with Eastern, my training took place at IAD. There was nothing, LITERALLY NOTHING between the beltway and IAD.

I don't know when you started there, but I distinctly remember going to Hot Air Ballon festivals adjacent to IAD in the early 80s. I go home every now and again, and yes, such a thing would be woefully impossible today...
You Sir, are a very funny lady.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:56 am

Imo - $6 billion is such a waste.

For that money, the MWAA could provide each local IAD passenger with a free cab ride into the city for over 16 years !
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
For that money, the MWAA could provide each local IAD passenger with a free cab ride into the city for over 16 years !

Good thing the rail link will prove useful for far longer than 16 years.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
mo - $6 billion is such a waste.

For that money, the MWAA could provide each local IAD passenger with a free cab ride into the city for over 16 years !

You ignore that most of the riders of this line will have nothing to do with the airport. They'll be people commuting from the suburbs into Tysons Corner (a major employment center with terrible traffic and minimal mass transit), Arlington and DC. The line will also serve many people living in the District/Arlington who reverse commute out to Tyson's Corner and the Dulles Tech Corridor.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the primary purpose of this line is NOT to serve IAD. The airport is a secondary benefit. No different than Metro's blue/yellow lines which serve DCA, but that's not the primary purpose of those lines either.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 1):
No crystal balls at the time, although if it had been upgraded and developed then, just imagine how the area and airport would have grown much sooner

We can say with confidence that it would have made no difference. Even in U.S. cities with well-developed mass transit systems, ridership amounts to single-digit percentages of the overall trips within a region. Their share is essentially meaningless and have no impact on the direction or types of development.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12):
You ignore that most of the riders of this line will have nothing to do with the airport.

True, but even considering the broader appeal, these metro systems tend to lose money, fail to replay capital costs, and represent an inferior investment when compared to roads. The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around. Mass transit is just an outdated and idealistic fall-back for regions that have failed to properly develop road infrastructure.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around.

Uh, no. The infrastructure required for the automobile is a hideous waste of space in downtown areas. The roads, the parking spaces, etc. all just take up far too much room. And that's before we start talking about the environmental and fuel impacts of having all those cars on the road.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Good thing the rail link will prove useful for far longer than 16 years.

Add in things rail operating cost and future maintenance and up keep - I'm sure free cabs can be provided for life !

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12):
You ignore that most of the riders of this line will have nothing to do with the airport. They'll be people commuting from the suburbs into Tysons Corner (a major employment center with terrible traffic and minimal mass transit), Arlington and DC. The line will also serve many people living in the District/Arlington who reverse commute out to Tyson's Corner and the Dulles Tech Corridor.

Meh - still a $16bil boondoggle.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
True, but even considering the broader appeal, these metro systems tend to lose money, fail to replay capital costs, and represent an inferior investment when compared to roads. The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around. Mass transit is just an outdated and idealistic fall-back for regions that have failed to properly develop road infrastructure.

   Terrible investment indeed. Government social sink holes.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Add in things rail operating cost and future maintenance and up keep - I'm sure free cabs can be provided for life !

You really think that operating and maintaining the line costs as much as building it?

And I hope you haven't forgotten about how you'd have to expand the roads to cover that many more cabs. And that doesn't come cheap either.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around.

We have been building our cities around the automobile and it's not working anymore. In fact, the entire Dulles area was built around the automobile. The problem is that there simply isn't enough land to expand the roads anymore and traffic is at near grid-lock. Not to mention with rising energy prices, the value proposition of road based systems is starting to falter. It's no coincidence that the areas hardest hit by the economic recession have been suburban/rural areas where everyone must drive to everything.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Add in things rail operating cost and future maintenance and up keep - I'm sure free cabs can be provided for life !

Except there's no road infrastructure to handle all those cabs and no room to build it.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
Their share is essentially meaningless and have no impact on the direction or types of development.

This is so patently false and hilariously wrong I don't know where to begin. If you look at the DC area, development has aggressively followed wherever rail lines have been built. Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built. Real estate prices around a metro station (even in the suburbs) can run 2-3x what they are in suburban areas with no mass transit.
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting N202PA (Reply 3):
How true that is. With a little bit of foresight in the 70s (after the demise of the W&OD Railrway), there would be a passenger line directly from Alexandria to Vienna, Reston, Herndon, Dulles, Leesburg and Purcellville. Instead, it's now a bike trail (which is nice, of course, but does nothing to ease the traffic problems of the area).

Exactly! The project is very costly for the travel time savings involved. Granted Metrorail to Loundoun is better than the status-quo, but the project will do very little to ease traffic congestion.

If the line is a success, people living closer to the city will suffer as the metrocars will be packed way before Arlington. If it is a failure, it will only give more arguments to public transportation opponents.

All in all America has shown that planning is not its forte!
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
True, but even considering the broader appeal, these metro systems tend to lose money, fail to replay capital costs, and represent an inferior investment when compared to roads. The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around. Mass transit is just an outdated and idealistic fall-back for regions that have failed to properly develop road infrastructure.

Mmm Well since you seem to be from car obsessed Dallas I guess traffic, pollution, visually unappealing Highways, Urban sprawl and a near empty downtown doesn't bother you the slightest.

Well guess what maintaining roads has a cost, pollution has a cost, and empty downtowns do as well.

And yes public transportation takes a minimum share of all trips, but imagine this for Dallas: Average Daily ridership, 228,000 for DART. For simplicity purposes let's assume that an average person makes 2 trips a day on Dart and that average car occupancy is 1.1. Well u'd have to find space for 101,000 cars! Daunting given the level of congestion.

I dear you to calculate how much it would cost to accomodate these 101,000 cars! Many more $$$ than the cost of construction and the cost of operating DART.

Yes public transport has a cost, but its benefits in terms of not having to build road infrastructure as well as the economic boost it provides is massive, more so than the cost of building and operating the damn thing!
 
User avatar
kngkyle
Crew
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:33 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:57 pm

 
D L X
Posts: 11638
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
Their share is essentially meaningless and have no impact on the direction or types of development.

This is so patently false and hilariously wrong I don't know where to begin. If you look at the DC area, development has aggressively followed wherever rail lines have been built. Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built. Real estate prices around a metro station (even in the suburbs) can run 2-3x what they are in suburban areas with no mass transit.

This is 100% true, and probably the best post on the thread.

DFW, I invite you to come visit us in the DC area and look at the way urbanality is built up around public transportation hubs, not only in use, but space available, and cost. Without a doubt (and virtually without fail) the subway and its stations adds huge value to the areas that it serves.
 
LOWS
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 21):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
Their share is essentially meaningless and have no impact on the direction or types of development.

This is so patently false and hilariously wrong I don't know where to begin. If you look at the DC area, development has aggressively followed wherever rail lines have been built. Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built. Real estate prices around a metro station (even in the suburbs) can run 2-3x what they are in suburban areas with no mass transit.

This is 100% true, and probably the best post on the thread.

DFW, I invite you to come visit us in the DC area and look at the way urbanality is built up around public transportation hubs, not only in use, but space available, and cost. Without a doubt (and virtually without fail) the subway and its stations adds huge value to the areas that it serves.

Or, certainly, you are welcome to visit Europe. Vienna, for example. Or my Salzburg. Buses every 10 minutes, Suburban Rail every 30. Almost always packed full.

There is a reason. Once people get out of their cars, they discover what life is like with considerably less stress.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
Uh, no. The infrastructure required for the automobile is a hideous waste of space in downtown areas.

Dense urban cores are obsolete. Most traffic in modern U.S. cities is suburb-to-suburb. The trip density in any one direction is too low to support mass transit.

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
The roads, the parking spaces, etc. all just take up far too much room. And that's before we start talking about the environmental and fuel impacts of having all those cars on the road.

False argument - the majority of the U.S. is neither space nor energy constrained, especially not the parts of it that are growing. We are a net petroleum exporting country and our environmental quality standards are trending upwards.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
We have been building our cities around the automobile and it's not working anymore.

It's not working how? Texas cities have token mass transit systems and are among the fastest growing metro areas in the U.S as ranked by Forbes magazine:

#1 - Austin, TX
#2 - Dallas, TX
#4 - Houston, TX
#9 - San Antonio, TX

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
The problem is that there simply isn't enough land to expand the roads anymore and traffic is at near grid-lock.

There isn't enough land because the DC area failed to plan for the necessary roads and highways in advance of development. Places like Texas haven't, which is one reasons that they are growing prosperously. Like I said in my first post, mass transit is just a way to shoe-horn transit capacity in places where road planning failed.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
This is so patently false and hilariously wrong I don't know where to begin. If you look at the DC area, development has aggressively followed wherever rail lines have been built. Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built. Real estate prices around a metro station (even in the suburbs) can run 2-3x what they are in suburban areas with no mass transit.

The only thing that is hilarious is that you are locked into the elementary school paradigm that mass transit is somehow inherently virtuous. Real estate development follows roads/highways all the same. Investment follows investment. Texas has numerous high property value, high-density, mixed-use developments that are located alongside arterial freeways with no mass transit connections.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 19):
Mmm Well since you seem to be from car obsessed Dallas I guess traffic, pollution, visually unappealing Highways, Urban sprawl and a near empty downtown doesn't bother you the slightest.

Nope. DFW does not have particularly bad traffic in all directions. Right now, I would avoid the 635-corridor because of the current construction which is adding many more traffic lanes and rehabilitating the existing lanes. However, I recently traveled from DFW airport to the North Dallas suburbs and averaged over 60 mph during rush hour.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 19):

And yes public transportation takes a minimum share of all trips, but imagine this for Dallas: Average Daily ridership, 228,000 for DART. For simplicity purposes let's assume that an average person makes 2 trips a day on Dart and that average car occupancy is 1.1. Well u'd have to find space for 101,000 cars! Daunting given the level of congestion.

I dear you to calculate how much it would cost to accomodate these 101,000 cars! Many more $$$ than the cost of construction and the cost of operating DART.

Believe me, I have taken a very detailed look at DART's ridership numbers. For the routes that parallel arterial freeways, the daily ridership is closer to 50,000 trips. Given average freeway lane capacity and the sheer number of freeway lanes, the result of putting all those cars back on the road is about an hour of traffic per day. This is not particularly critical as freeways are not at full capacity 24 hours a day.

You are also taking a vast leap of faith that the costs are "worth it." DART runs an operating loss of about $450 million annually. At average DOT mileage rates, that would purchase a newly constructed six-lane, 45 mile arterial freeway every year. Not to mention, those freeways run continuously, not on fixed timetables, and allow significant volumes of freight and services traffic which mass transit cannot carry.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
Dense urban cores are obsolete.

Tell that to Atlanta, Denver, DC and Charlotte, where urban growth is outpacing suburban growth by almost 1% or higher.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/nei...or-suburban-growth-us-metros/2419/

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
the majority of the U.S. is neither space nor energy constrained

DC (the subject of this thread) is definitely space-constrained.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
We are a net petroleum exporting country

Then think of how much more money we could make if we didn't have to spend so much on our own transportation needs.

Also, think about the incredible amount of wasted space in downtown Dallas due to almost half the land being occupied by parking lots. Revenue-generating buildings could be built on those sites, giving people places to work, shop, dine, etc. and making the city more pleasant and walkable (which is one of the great things about DC) in the process. But instead, they're little better than vacant land. That is not the way forward.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
Dense urban cores are obsolete. Most traffic in modern U.S. cities is suburb-to-suburb. The trip density in any one direction is too low to support mass transit.

True through bad planning and the eagerness of local officials to permit everything knowing full well that the local developper will contribute campaign money...

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
False argument - the majority of the U.S. is neither space nor energy constrained

Wrong! Cities and suburbs are very space constrained. Look up the ICC in maryland to see how long it took to build a stretch of 20 miles of Highway to see that it is hard to build something in a dense environment.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
There isn't enough land because the DC area failed to plan for the necessary roads and highways in advance of development. Places like Texas haven't, which is one reasons that they are growing prosperously. Like I said in my first post, mass transit is just a way to shoe-horn transit capacity in places where road planning failed.

Wrong! There was a huge plan for Highways which was shelved in the 60's cause it was too expensive and would hurt historic parts of the city. As a result DC is now a much more livable and healthier place to live.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
The only thing that is hilarious is that you are locked into the elementary school paradigm that mass transit is somehow inherently virtuous. Real estate development follows roads/highways all the same. Investment follows investment. Texas has numerous high property value, high-density, mixed-use developments that are located alongside arterial freeways with no mass transit connections.

Great for Texas but not the case anywhere else. Strip malls are being abandoned and property prices are the highest where good transit is provided and that happens in most cities in the US.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
the result of putting all those cars back on the road is about an hour of traffic per day. This is not particularly critical as freeways are not at full capacity 24 hours a day.

Hahaha don't know when to start on that one. Have you looked at transit usage per time of the day? YOu'll see that probably 70% of transit usage is during the peak. So 70% of 50,000 cars, that is roughly 47,000 cars would be added on the highway when the highways are the most congested!

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
You are also taking a vast leap of faith that the costs are "worth it." DART runs an operating loss of about $450 million annually. At average DOT mileage rates, that would purchase a newly constructed six-lane, 45 mile arterial freeway every year. Not to mention, those freeways run continuously, not on fixed timetables, and allow significant volumes of freight and services traffic which mass transit cannot carry.

Where do you get your numbers from? In urban areas it cost about $25 - 35 million dollars to build a new highway. That 15-18 miles of Highway not 45. And that doesn't include maintenance, which is way more expensive than similar rail.

Granted though Highways are more flexible, but in the long term always get congested and therefore require more highway capacity. this is an endless cycle that can only be stopped by investing in public transportation which is way cheaper in the long run.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
Also, think about the incredible amount of wasted space in downtown Dallas due to almost half the land being occupied by parking lots. Revenue-generating buildings could be built on those sites, giving people places to work, shop, dine, etc. and making the city more pleasant and walkable (which is one of the great things about DC) in the process. But instead, they're little better than vacant land. That is not the way forward.

Exactly: Nothing appealing about a city where you have to drive everywhere, where vast swaths of land remain forever empty!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
Tell that to Atlanta, Denver, DC and Charlotte, where urban growth is outpacing suburban growth by almost 1% or higher.

A whole 1% during an economic correction that has resulted in an abnormal surplus in the nationwide backlog of for-sale homes? Holy statistically insignificant batman!

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
Then think of how much more money we could make if we didn't have to spend so much on our own transportation needs.

Transportation is essential to productivity, distribution of goods, etc. Our highly mobile society is an asset, not a liability. If we want to export more petroleum products, then let's drill and refine more petroleum.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
True through bad planning and the eagerness of local officials to permit everything knowing full well that the local developper will contribute campaign money...

Low density development has flourished because that is the natural condition that the majority of human beings with any purchasing power desire. The majority of people want space. The majority of people don't want to live stacked above and below each other.

The fact that you blame the development you prefer less on corruption just shows that you are cynical and out of touch.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
Wrong! Cities and suburbs are very space constrained.

They are not. Go to the edge of Austin, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio and there is prairie in all directions with "for sale" signs offering huge tracts of land. Look at a map, we are not running out of land. Your profile says you are in Maryland, so you are out of touch with where the growth is happening.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
Look up the ICC in maryland to see how long it took to build a stretch of 20 miles of Highway to see that it is hard to build something in a dense environment.

Again - failure to plan. Texas has corridors planned for areas that will not be developed until 2030. You could have made plans of that nature in the 1960s, but you didn't.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
Wrong! There was a huge plan for Highways which was shelved in the 60's cause it was too expensive and would hurt historic parts of the city. As a result DC is now a much more livable and healthier place to live.

So the alternative was to build a more expensive system with less flexibility. DC ultimately has little industry and produces very little aside from federal services. In cities where real things need to get built, that model would provide no utility.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
Great for Texas but not the case anywhere else. Strip malls are being abandoned and property prices are the highest where good transit is provided and that happens in most cities in the US.

You are missing the point. The point was made that mass transit stimulated high-value property development with more "cachet" than strip malls. I am pointing out that such development is not in any way tied to mass transit. You can have the exact same development along arterial roads and freeways. This is a fact.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
Hahaha don't know when to start on that one. Have you looked at transit usage per time of the day? YOu'll see that probably 70% of transit usage is during the peak. So 70% of 50,000 cars, that is roughly 47,000 cars would be added on the highway when the highways are the most congested!

Again - with the money blown on mass transit operating losses, expanding roads would be no concern what-so-ever. And as you concede, the roads would have a broader utility that would result in greater return on investment.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
Where do you get your numbers from? In urban areas it cost about $25 - 35 million dollars to build a new highway. That 15-18 miles of Highway not 45.

Texas DOT. I found very simmilar numbers from Florida DOT for validation.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
this is an endless cycle that can only be stopped by investing in public transportation which is way cheaper in the long run.

Yes, it is an endless cycle. You keep growing and growing. That is the reality of development. We are a development-oriented species in a development-oriented country. Mass transit doesn't "break the cycle" for a second.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 25):
Exactly: Nothing appealing about a city where you have to drive everywhere, where vast swaths of land remain forever empty!

Then how do you mentally grapple with the fact that people are moving to Texas "drive everywhere" cities in droves? In reality, people want the freedom to travel when and where they want without mass transit timetables. They want to live with reasonable distance between neighbors. That is not a bad thing. We should be looking for ways to preserve and enhance this natural state and not cram everyone together for the convenience of central planners.

In other words, your perception of reality is flawed and your world view is broken.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
A whole 1% during an economic correction that has resulted in an abnormal surplus in the nationwide backlog of for-sale homes? Holy statistically insignificant batman!

Then I guess Houston's 0.1% suburb development advantage is really insignificant.

The suburban way of life has peaked. It had its run, but it's starting to fade. Younger people aren't settling in subdivisions, they're going to more developed areas. And that will necessitate the development of more transit options.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Transportation is essential to productivity, distribution of goods, etc. Our highly mobile society is an asset, not a liability.

And we can do it far more efficiently with appropriate mass transit, particularly in cities like DC (to say nothing of Boston, New York, or Philadelphia).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
It's not working how? Texas cities have token mass transit systems and are among the fastest growing metro areas in the U.S as ranked by Forbes magazine:

#1 - Austin, TX
#2 - Dallas, TX
#4 - Houston, TX
#9 - San Antonio, TX

Wait another 30 or so years as your infrastructure and population ages, some of those same Texas cities will find themselves looking a lot like Las Vegas or Ft Myers (Florida)....massive abandoned sprawling suburbs with rotting infrastructure.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
Dense urban cores are obsolete. Most traffic in modern U.S. cities is suburb-to-suburb.

Except that sprawling suburbs are now dying. Even in Texas many of your suburban areas are starting to fail. And many more will fail as energy prices rise, resource prices rise (wait till water costs $5/gallon in Texas) and infrastructure ages. You forget that most of Texas' development is relatively new, so it's cheap to maintain. That won't last.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Low density development has flourished because that is the natural condition that the majority of human beings with any purchasing power desire.

Maybe so, but eventually most people won't be able to afford it. There's a reason why rural America is dying.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Again - failure to plan. Texas has corridors planned for areas that will not be developed until 2030.

I'll certainly agree that many urban areas failed to plan, but Texas is no different. Texas won't have the money to build all these corridors in the future, plus maintain the existing ones. I was in Texas last month for a business trip and your roads are already in pretty sorry shape for such a "prosperous" area. They were just as bad as places like Detroit and Chicago.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
You are missing the point. The point was made that mass transit stimulated high-value property development with more "cachet" than strip malls. I am pointing out that such development is not in any way tied to mass transit. You can have the exact same development along arterial roads and freeways. This is a fact.

You won't get the same type of development along freeways. Sure, you'll get development, but it will mostly be low-value strip malls and trashy apartments. I don't know anyone who clamors to live right up against a busy freeway except poor people who have no choice.
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Low density development has flourished because that is the natural condition that the majority of human beings with any purchasing power desire. The majority of people want space. The majority of people don't want to live stacked above and below each other.

Everybody wants space, but faced with long commutes, people do and will downsize to live in denser communities in order to reduce the amount of time they spend commuting

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
The fact that you blame the development you prefer less on corruption just shows that you are cynical and out of touch.

How so? No property developer has ever financed a political campaign now?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
They are not. Go to the edge of Austin, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio and there is prairie in all directions with "for sale" signs offering huge tracts of land. Look at a map, we are not running out of land. Your profile says you are in Maryland, so you are out of touch with where the growth is happening.

Building on the edges requires people to commute longer to get to their workplace, and therefore adds congestion which will be difficult to reduce without gigantic and disturbing road projects (you were talking about a highway expansion earlier have you seen how disruptive these are?)

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Again - failure to plan. Texas has corridors planned for areas that will not be developed until 2030. You could have made plans of that nature in the 1960s, but you didn't.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com/DC_Interstate_Fwy.html

Yes there was a plan once again!

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
So the alternative was to build a more expensive system with less flexibility. DC ultimately has little industry and produces very little aside from federal services. In cities where real things need to get built, that model would provide no utility.

You have no idea of what you are talking about! Not everybody in the DC region works for the government. Have you ever been to this region at least?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
You are missing the point. The point was made that mass transit stimulated high-value property development with more "cachet" than strip malls. I am pointing out that such development is not in any way tied to mass transit. You can have the exact same development along arterial roads and freeways. This is a fact.

It is. Have you even looked where property values are the highest? Well guess what it is not in cities that are little walkable/have nearly no public transportation

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Again - with the money blown on mass transit operating losses, expanding roads would be no concern what-so-ever. And as you concede, the roads would have a broader utility that would result in greater return on investment.

Immediate direct return yes! Long term and indirect returns no!

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Texas DOT. I found very simmilar numbers from Florida DOT for validation.

Link please? (back up your claims)

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Yes, it is an endless cycle. You keep growing and growing. That is the reality of development. We are a development-oriented species in a development-oriented country. Mass transit doesn't "break the cycle" for a second.

Mass transit encourages density so yes it slows down urban sprawl

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Then how do you mentally grapple with the fact that people are moving to Texas "drive everywhere" cities in droves? In reality, people want the freedom to travel when and where they want without mass transit timetables. They want to live with reasonable distance between neighbors. That is not a bad thing. We should be looking for ways to preserve and enhance this natural state and not cram everyone together for the convenience of central planners.

In other words, your perception of reality is flawed and your world view is broken.

I can mentally grapple the fact that people prefer car (and air) to any form of mass transit (that's what I do for a living by the way). I also know very well that there is penalty attached to the inconvenience of public transportation. What I also know though is that people care about travel time and travel cost the most. People vote with their feet. They will choose whatever mode of transport gets them faster to their destination subject to reasonable cost. In the beginning yes freeways great everybody uses them, but then slowly but surely people start using mass transit, because it becomes cheaper/more reliable/faster. Your solution is to build more roads to alleviate these bottlenecks, my solution is to build mass transit. Cause I want to live in a livable non polluted environment where people walk and interact.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
In other words, your perception of reality is flawed and your world view is broken.

Given how Texas centric you are I don't think so... The era of the car ended in a lot of places because of the constraints we have been talking about. Every city in Texas you mentioned has some sort of efficient public transportation cities, the most desirable cities in the US and in the world have pretty good public transportation. London nor Paris would be what they are with your vision. Singapore, Hong-kong have great public transportation. Dubai ended up building public transportation as an after thought despite or more because off it's grand vision of highways everywhere.

It's your vision that is flawed i'm sorry. you are right in saying that public transportation does not carry a large amount of traffic, but you are wrong in saying that we would be better off without it. Not having public transportation has more been a problem than a solution even in Texas...
 
User avatar
STT757
Topic Author
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built.

Toll Brothers is touting the Metro Rail extension in their advertisments for their communities in and around Dulles airport and Loudoun county.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 26):
Then how do you mentally grapple with the fact that people are moving to Texas "drive everywhere" cities in droves?

Because it is cheaper to live there than in inherently more desireable places?

These sprawling new cities are kind of like the Golden Corral...not great but you can have as much of it as you want.

[Edited 2012-07-06 07:40:38]
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around. Mass transit is just an outdated and idealistic fall-back for regions that have failed to properly develop road infrastructure.

Having just returned from visiting Tokyo, I could not disagree with you more. A highway or freeway could not move nearly as many people as the Tokyo Metro does, regardless of how many lanes you built.

The automobile (and freeways) allow for suburban sprawl, but at the end of the day those "suburbs" become "cities" and get faced with the same issues of road congestion that can't be simply "solved" by paving a few more miles of freeway.
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
It's not working how? Texas cities have token mass transit systems and are among the fastest growing metro areas in the U.S as ranked by Forbes magazine:

That far more to do with pro-growth policies, and cheap land than mass transit. And it's not like Texas isn't investing in mass transit, the DFW area is getting a whole lot more light rail and commuter rail. Cities like Salt Lake City in historically conservative Utah are building major mass transit system in anticipation of growth - incredibly forward thinking - they stand to reap the reward of this long term planning.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
Dense urban cores are obsolete. Most traffic in modern U.S. cities is suburb-to-suburb. The trip density in any one direction is too low to support mass transit.

That was a true a decade or two ago, urban in transit connected cities are experiencing strong growth. It's why New York City, Washington and Boston's core experienced a far smaller price drop during the housing crisis than the outlying suburbs. Cities like DC are attracting people that once lived in the suburbs who are trading their long commutes for shorter commutes but 'city comforts.'

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
You are also taking a vast leap of faith that the costs are "worth it." DART runs an operating loss of about $450 million annually. At average DOT mileage rates, that would purchase a newly constructed six-lane, 45 mile arterial freeway every year. Not to mention, those freeways run continuously, not on fixed timetables, and allow significant volumes of freight and services traffic which mass transit cannot carry.

That's incorrect. While DART's entire budget is $450 Million (which, mind you, includes HOV lanes among other operations) of which between 50 and 54% is paid for by the 1% sales tax. The rest is covered by revenue. DART's bus transit system is actually more expensive per passenger than DART light rail (the subsidy is $4.20 vs $5.50).
 
September11
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:33 am

I rode on Metro subway to DCA frequently. Metro subway to IAD coming soon... and maybe BWI. Both are nice additions. I think there's rail service to BWI from Union Station. Airport transportation looking good for future higher school students in Washington DC area.
Airliners.net of the Future
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Silver Line Coming To IAD

Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:18 pm

And by the way DFWrevolution:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...cgi?src=201102/170810.png&ref=6376


Yes DC had a whole Highway system planned! And We're all glad 50% of the planned system wasn't built!


Yes living in Maryland I struggle to get into DC by car, and I hate it very much, but my humble opinion is that inside the beltway, Southern Maryland is way nicer than Northern Virginia!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tommy1808, Yahoo [Bot] and 51 guests