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US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:13 pm

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...ld_be_modeled_after_madrasahs.html

Well, at least he's honest about his true allegiances, because it sure isn't to this country.

And for everyone's edification, this is former US Rep Julia Carson's grandson, from the same district in Indianapolis. He more or less inherited this seat, has been a racial bomb thrower his entire time.

I love it when the lefitsts just show their true colors. In this case, his motivations to islamify the US. Go to Dearborn, Andre, they've already started without you...
 
TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting slider (Thread starter):

Well, at least he's honest about his true allegiances, because it sure isn't to this country.

Because of his religious beliefs, he isn't a good American? Since when? Last time I checked, Freedom of and from religion is part of the Constitution of the United States.

Let's say you're a Born-again Christian. If you mention the Bible the same way he mentions the Koran, does that make your allegiance not to this nation?

Explain why he isn't a good American?
 
TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:33 pm

Oh, and this is a quote from the Congressman in the article I read via Huffpost.

[b"]My remarks at ICNA call attention to the fact that faith-based schools throughout this country have excelled because of innovative instructional methods and a willingness to engage different learning styles – whether visual, auditory, or kinesthetic. While I do not believe that any particular faith should be the foundation of our public schools, it is important that we take note of the instructional tools these schools utilize to empower their young people. Christian, Jewish, and Islamic schools have experienced notable success by casting off a one-size-fits-all approach to education, and this is a model we must replicate. Having attended a parochial elementary school myself, I’ve seen these successes first hand. If we are going to take American education to the next level, we must expand successful models and implement the practices that will enable success for our students."[/b]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...eled-after-madrassa_n_1654510.html

Now, if we want to argue the merits of that statement, we could have a lively debate. But you're trying to turn this into a "Muslims can't be good Americans" rant, you've failed from the outset.

So how is he un-American?
 
vikkyvik
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:35 pm

Much ado about nothing.

He seems to think they have a good system set up in their Muslim schools, and it might be beneficial to look at something like that in our public schools.

Maybe he's right, maybe he's not. I don't know, I haven't been to the Muslim schools in question. I don't think he was saying "we need to base public schools on the Koran". That's now how I interpreted it, at least.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I love it when the lefitsts just show their true colors.

I love it when rightists show their inability to think.

(that wasn't a serious comment)

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Well, at least he's honest about his true allegiances, because it sure isn't to this country.

Wow! With that sort of amazing ability to draw conclusions from no evidence, you should be running the country!

Might I suggest that you are NOT helping matters in this country. I don't know anything about this guy except what I saw in that video, which didn't really have much of an effect on me. But your statements are polarizing as hell.

Of course, you know that, and probably don't care.
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TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
Might I suggest that you are NOT helping matters in this country. I don't know anything about this guy except what I saw in that video, which didn't really have much of an effect on me. But your statements are polarizing as hell.

Of course, you know that, and probably don't care.

Sadly, all too many on the right have been going this way since Clinton was elected in '92. The GOP, a once great party, is now a haven for intolerance.
 
WestJet747
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:00 pm

Ugh, madrasahs are just the Islamic version of Catholic schools. Carson is saying that U.S. schools should model themselves after madrasahs, not become them! This post reeks of ignorance to me.

I should also note that according to my Muslim co-worker, "madrasah" translates to "place of learning", and that there are many madrasahs that are secular.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Well, at least he's honest about his true allegiances, because it sure isn't to this country.

You should probably do some research before making comments like this.

If his true allegiance wasn't to his country, why in the world would he sponsor a bill to increase financial counseling for military families, or improve mental health assessments for military personnel? Sounds to me like he's rather fond of his country (and its military).

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
In this case, his motivations to islamify the US.

How do you get that from what he said?!

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
He seems to think they have a good system set up in their Muslim schools, and it might be beneficial to look at something like that in our public schools.

That's how I interpreted it.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
I don't think he was saying "we need to base public schools on the Koran". That's now how I interpreted it, at least.

   Exactly. But some people only see things the way they want to see them.
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TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:04 pm

The next shoe to drop will be as follows: "Well, you know Obama went to a Madrassa when living in Indonesia."

That's where this has to be heading.
 
Newark727
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
He more or less inherited this seat, has been a racial bomb thrower his entire time.

How fascinating. I'd have thought people who frantically raise the alarm about "Islamification" would be much more worthy of such a title.
 
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zckls04
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:37 pm

Oh, the terror of Islamification! Please......  
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DocLightning
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
And for everyone's edification, this is former US Rep Julia Carson's grandson, from the same district in Indianapolis. He more or less inherited this seat, has been a racial bomb thrower his entire time.

I love it when the lefitsts just show their true colors. In this case, his motivations to islamify the US. Go to Dearborn, Andre, they've already started without you...

This isn't leftist. This is very rightist. He's for involving religion in schools. Surely you are for involving more religion in schools, right? After all, if I am to listen to Rick Santorum, that's the big problem in this country: not enough religion.

But if I actually listen to the video and not the soundbite, I get a very different story. One that does not reek of "Islamification." If he'd said the same thing about 'Catholic schools" instead of "Madrassas" then you'd cheer him (except he's a Democrat, so he could propose that the sky is blue and you'd probably argue that it isn't).

Reality, as usual, has a strongly liberal bias.
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TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
Surely you are for involving more religion in schools, right?

Not that religion. As with the new curriculum in Arizona, which states they will only let the Bible be taught, that's where the author of this post is headed. Unfortunately, and sadly, far too many conservatives feel these days that if isn't a certain brand of Christianity, it should either be ignored or not allowed.

Again, it's the old, rigid "our way or the highway" mentality that has enveloped the Republican party. And it's destroying our society.
 
JAGflyer
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:01 am

The US is not a Muslim nation and does not need any public systems Islamified or patterned after any religions. I don't understand what a Madrassah does differently other than basing learning on Islamic principals. It's the same as any other religious school.

[Edited 2012-07-06 17:03:41]
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vikkyvik
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 4):
Sadly, all too many on the right have been going this way since Clinton was elected in '92. The GOP, a once great party, is now a haven for intolerance.

Democrats are just as bad. Neither party is blameless.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
Exactly. But some people only see things the way they want to see them.

True, which is generally fine. But to raise an alarm and decry someone as such:

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Well, at least he's honest about his true allegiances, because it sure isn't to this country.
Quoting slider (Thread starter):
his motivations to islamify the US

...based on basically nonexistent evidence in one video is quite devious.

I mean, really, I could take ANY video, of ANY politician, saying ANYthing, and come up with something that some group wouldn't like. But what's the point, unless you're trying to instigate?
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rampart
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
I mean, really, I could take ANY video, of ANY politician, saying ANYthing, and come up with something that some group wouldn't like. But what's the point, unless you're trying to instigate?

That essentially describes 95% of all campaing advertisements. Forget deep thought. Offend the superficial. And have someone else pay for it.
 
TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 11):
The US is not a Muslim nation and does not need any public systems Islamified or patterned after any religions. I don't understand what a Madrassah does differently other than basing learning on Islamic principals. It's the same as any other religious school.

As the Congressman said, he's not talking about religious indoctrination here, but in innovation that he feels, rightly or wrongly, could serve American schools well.

Many of us don't want schools Christianized, but that seems to be what many on the right want, even if it's clearly Unconstitutional.

And how would you know it's the same with any religious schools? Are you an expert on the subject?

The problem many of us are having on this thread is that the author of the thread, not the Congressman, is the one trying to insert religion, or a loathing of one religion, into this debate. Debate the issue of whether more U.S. schools should be more like religious schools, or if they can be more like religious schools, or if those schools are indeed better than public schools. It should not be a debate on the Congressman's religion, and if that makes him less of an American.
 
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Aesma
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 11):
The US is not a Muslim nation and does not need any public systems Islamified or patterned after any religions. I don't understand what a Madrassah does differently other than basing learning on Islamic principals. It's the same as any other religious school.

Apparently he's referring to AMERICAN Madrassahs that supposedly are better at teaching kids because they adapt.
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comorin
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:44 am

'Madrasses' is the plural of 'Madras', or perhaps a derogatory way of addressing the fine citizens of that city.

Enough said.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:05 am

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 2):
. Christian, Jewish, and Islamic schools have experienced notable success by casting off a one-size-fits-all approach to education, and this is a model we must replicate. Having attended a parochial elementary school myself, I’ve seen these successes first hand. If we are going to take American education to the next level, we must expand successful models and implement the practices that will enable success for our students."[/b]

Some people the moment Islam is mentioned go into Islamophobia mode. Even there is nothing mentioned about the dreaded Sharia laws, even if it is mentioning other religions, even using the madrassas as an example for improving the quality of education, but nooooo the word Islam is involved so it is all wrong and bad.   
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:22 am

Reminds me of all the controversy surrounding the "ground zero mosque" except even more sensationalized...
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Superfly
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:22 am

This is how it all begins. It always starts off as something sweet, harmless & innocent and meant to help the children. Congressman Carson is a disgrace.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 11):
The US is not a Muslim nation and does not need any public systems Islamified or patterned after any religions.


  
However Carson and his friend in the White House may think otherwise.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Go to Dearborn, Andre, they've already started without you...


  
Exactly!
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WestJet747
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Congressman Carson is a disgrace.

How so?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
This is how it all begins. It always starts off as something sweet, harmless & innocent and meant to help the children.

What is the "it" that you are referring to?
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SOBHI51
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:31 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):

This is how it all begins. It always starts off as something sweet, harmless & innocent and meant to help the children. Congressman Carson is a disgrace.

What does begin? What end you have in mind?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Congressman Carson is a disgrace.

So he is not allowed the freedom of expressing his mind? Or because he says things some here get scared he become a disgrace? What happened to the freedom of expression, you always mention.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
This is how it all begins. It always starts off as something sweet, harmless & innocent and meant to help the children. Congressman Carson is a disgrace.

The disgrace is anti-Islamic hysteria. That's the disgrace.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
However Carson and his friend in the White House may think otherwise.

Yup, I called it. I knew some poor soul would make it a link to the President. THAT is the disgrace.
 
seb146
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 11):
The US is not a Muslim nation

Nor is she a Christian nation.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 11):
does not need any public systems Islamified or patterned after any religions.

If you actually listen to what he said, he understands that private schools (which are generally religous based) have a better grasp of teaching. Private schools understand that some children learn by seeing, some learn by hearing and some learn by doing. Because he has a daughter in an Islamic school, he sees this and he relates to this and extends this to "this is how public schools should be." But, the right insists on telling everyone that he wants the country to be an Islamic thocracy. Ignoring the fact that every right-winger out there want this nation to be a Christian theocracy.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
Democrats are just as bad. Neither party is blameless.

So, that gives the right a free pass? I don't think so.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Ignoring the fact that every right-winger out there want this nation to be a Christian theocracy.

Um, I know a lot of "right-wingers" who would disagree. I even know a bunch of right-wing atheists... Are you sure there is a giant religious movement, or are there a few loudmouths and a bunch of politicians that make a big deal of it? I think you'd find they are in the minority, and claiming they are the right is like me taking the extreme left's 5-10% and saying that everyone left of center is just like them...

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
Democrats are just as bad. Neither party is blameless.

So, that gives the right a free pass? I don't think so.

No he is just pointing out to the other poster that it's not one party becoming a monster, it's politicians in general. Neither extreme is good
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L-188
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
Maybe he's right, maybe he's not. I don't know, I haven't been to the Muslim schools in question. I don't think he was saying "we need to base public schools on the Koran". That's now how I interpreted it, at least.



That's not the way I read it. A mandrassa is just a gateway school to more fervent Jihadist education and eventually a short life as a suicide bomber.

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 6):
The next shoe to drop will be as follows: "Well, you know Obama went to a Madrassa when living in Indonesia."



Wouldn't surprise me, I would explain when Obama is so screwed up, a wacky religious schooling, a broken home, the 70's equivalent of a dad that sleep around, a mom who dragged him around the world through several questionable marriages by his low self-esteem plagued mother.

The US is not a Muslim nation and does not need any public systems Islamified or patterned after any religions.[/quote]

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 11):
The US is not a Muslim nation

Nor is she a Christian nation.



Actually seb146 historically it can be argued that it is. The "Freedom of Religion" was to protect the various christian religions in the various colonies, Quakers, Protestants, Catholics, Anglicans etc.......Judaism probably wasn't on the radar, and definitely neither where the native American belief systems or Islamic doctrine. Actually in the case of the latter the US would have our first war with them in short order as we where forced to bombard various north african ports to destroy pilots that followed that religon.

Actually one could argue the war against islamists by the US has been going on for over 200 years thanks to the barbary pirates.

For the record the modern interpretation of religious freedom is superior IMHO....as long as I don't have a majority of one religious committed to killing me, which it seems that the majority of those who practice a particular religion seem to be committed too.

But I also seperate out wahabbisim from from other sects too. I don't think there are too many Durbishes out there looking to killing americans.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:04 pm

As for Madrassas ( Arabic for school) in Muslim countries, there are differences:
E.g. the one Obama went to in Indonesia is not different from a religious affiliated elementary school in western countries (e.g. in Ireland, where still many schools are run by the Catholic church) and offers a broad spectrum of education.

At the other end of the spectrum you´ll find "schools" in Pakistan or Afghanistan, where the children only learn how to recitate the Q´ran by rote and barely anything else (maybe a little bit of reading, writing and algebra). These Madrassas are run by radical groups, who barely have a theological education in Islam themselves and take advantage of the failure by the government to provide for adequate education. The students come mainly from poor families, who can´t afford to sent their children to proper schools and they are easily indoctrinated.

Interestingly, as per an article on the BBC website I read a while ago, in France many middleclass Muslim families send their children to private Catholic schools. The main reason is a bit stricter dress and behaviour code than on government schools and also that these private schools allow for a gang-free environment as opposed to the government schools in the immigrant districts.

Jan

[Edited 2012-07-07 11:09:29]
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L-188
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
At the other end of the spectrum you´ll find "schools" in Pakistan or Afghanistan, where the children only learn how to recitate the Q´ran by rote and barely anything else (maybe a little bit of reading, writing and algebra). These Madrassas are run by radical groups, who barely have a theological education in Islam themselves and take advantage of the failure by the government to provide for adequate education. The students come mainly from poor families, who can´t afford to sent their children to proper schools and they are easily indoctrinated.

And that is the current popular defintion of a Mandrass for the US.

Not saying it is right, not saying it is wrong but that is what it is.

So the question for those who read the Koran, what can you do to change that?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
So the question for those who read the Koran, what can you do to change that?

I would say to provide for affordable education, which while not being completely secular, will emphasize the 21st century instead of the 8th.
Here in Germany there is a motion to train Muslim religion teachers and theologists at local universities. These people will mainly heve grown up in Germany, will be familiar with German culture, language and the constitution.
They will then offer Muslim religious class as a voluntary subject, just as Catholic and Lutheran (or, if there enough students, Jewish) religion class offered. The class will be taught in German language and like e.g. the Lutheran class I attended as a boy, will not only teach the religion of choice, but also the basics of other belief systems (IIRC in grade 5 our Lutheran religion teacher taught us the basics about Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Bhuddism. It was the time when the first children of the "Gastarbeiter", many of them Turkish, were in elementary school as well, about my age at this time).

Jan

BTW, I´ve read that the school Obama went to in Indonesia was also quite popular with the local expat community as the the place to send their children to.

Jan
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Mir
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
At the other end of the spectrum you´ll find "schools" in Pakistan or Afghanistan, where the children only learn how to recitate the Q´ran by rote and barely anything else (maybe a little bit of reading, writing and algebra). These Madrassas are run by radical groups, who barely have a theological education in Islam themselves and take advantage of the failure by the government to provide for adequate education.

And believe it or not, we've got the Christian equivalent in the US. And they even get state funding.

http://www.salon.com/2012/06/19/shoc...chool_textbooks_salpart/singleton/

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WestJet747
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Ignoring the fact that every right-winger out there want this nation to be a Christian theocracy.

Not true at all. In fact, as a right-winger myself, I see a divide happening on the right. I see far more atheist, moderate rights, while I also see far more extreme rights. So it can be said that there is a stronger religious push, but the number doing so is smaller.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
as long as I don't have a majority of one religious committed to killing me, which it seems that the majority of those who practice a particular religion seem to be committed too.

Do you honestly believe a majority of Muslims are trying to kill you? I think it's rather narcissistic to believe that an average American such as yourself is in the crosshairs of a bulk of the billion or so Muslims in the world.

I am surrounded by Muslims daily in my work, my neighbourhood, and even my football team, and I have never once felt threatened. If you delve a little deeper into Islam, past the minority radicals who make the news, you find a religion that does actually teach peace, not too far off from Christianity.

Interesting anecdote to support my point: There's a team in my football league that has a tradition of doing the Lord's Prayer after every game with the other team. The team in question also happens to have two Muslim players, who I've witnessed engaged in this Christian prayer with everyone else. A guy on my team asked one of them why they do it, since it's not their belief, and his answer really struck a chord with me: "In Islam we are taught to respect others and their beliefs. Since most of you are Christian, we join you in your prayer as a sign of respect." Those two sentences really changed my perspective given that, as an atheist, I hadn't joined the prayer. It's these type of Muslims who make up the majority of the religion, not the one's you think are trying to murder you.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
That's not the way I read it. A mandrassa is just a gateway school to more fervent Jihadist education and eventually a short life as a suicide bomber.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
And that is the current popular defintion of a Mandrass for the US.

I was waiting for someone to say this. I could tell you that you're wrong until I'm blue in the face, but I'd rather have the Yale Centre for the Study of Globalization do it for me:

Quote:
Seemingly posing almost as great a risk as nuclear weapons, according to a plethora of stories, were the Pakistani madrassas. Madrassas, as the Washington Post noted in 2002, were “a breeding ground for terrorist organizations.” Articles observed that Pakistan has thousands of madrassas – implying that the country is virtually awash with training camps for terrorists masquerading as schools for boys. Journalists repeatedly profiled the Haqqani madrassa, for example, observing that it is the alma mater of 90 percent of the former Afghan Taliban leadership.

Few efforts were made to define the term “madrassas” for the American audience. As the controversy over US Senator Barack Obama’s childhood schooling earlier this year pointed up, the use of the word “madrassa” almost always carries a loaded political meaning. The New York Times in fact ran a correction to its January 24, 2007, story covering the Obama controversy:

“ [the] report that said Senator Barack Obama had attended an Islamic school or madrassa in Indonesia as a child referred imprecisely to madrassas. While some teach a radical version of Islam, most historically have not.”
Source
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TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 30):

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
as long as I don't have a majority of one religious committed to killing me, which it seems that the majority of those who practice a particular religion seem to be committed too.

Do you honestly believe a majority of Muslims are trying to kill you?

Sadly, there are many on the right who believe that with all their soul. They never got over 9/11, and they're convinced that Muslims are out to get them and this country. It's a bunch of hogwash, but you can't argue with people who have gone 'round the bend like that. You just can't.

The paranoia on the right is hitting levels never seen before: they believe the entire Muslim faith is out to get them; many believe Obama isn't an American; many believe he's a Muslim. And no amount of facts will get in the way of their hysteria.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 31):
The paranoia on the right is hitting levels never seen before: they believe the entire Muslim faith is out to get them; many believe Obama isn't an American; many believe he's a Muslim. And no amount of facts will get in the way of their hysteria.

  
I refer to it as the new Red Scare... funny thing is, I've seen people that thought this way until they met just one Muslim... they see that that Muslim is a normal person like you or me
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TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:50 pm

Here's an article for our friend L-188 to read. Maybe before condemning all Muslims as people out to kill him, he could enlighten himself a little.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/0...-but-has-global-enemies/?hpt=hp_c1

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 31):
The paranoia on the right is hitting levels never seen before: they believe the entire Muslim faith is out to get them; many believe Obama isn't an American; many believe he's a Muslim. And no amount of facts will get in the way of their hysteria.


I refer to it as the new Red Scare

Conservatives always seem to need an enemy of some sort. abolitionists; communists; liberals; women's libbers; gays and lesbians; Muslims.

I think the reason is that, without an enemy, they cannot justify much of their ideology. If they can't scare people into voting for them, then they're toast.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 10):
Not that religion.

So which religion is OK?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
Wouldn't surprise me, I would explain when Obama is so screwed up, a wacky religious schooling, a broken home, the 70's equivalent of a dad that sleep around, a mom who dragged him around the world through several questionable marriages by his low self-esteem plagued mother.

He's so screwed-up that he became the President? He's happily married with two kids and a dog? Yeah, that's screwed-up.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
A mandrassa is just a gateway school to more fervent Jihadist education and eventually a short life as a suicide bomber.

That's not a fact. That's what you "feel." Most madrassas are simply the Muslim equivalent of a Catholic school.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 30):
I am surrounded by Muslims daily in my work, my neighbourhood, and even my football team, and I have never once felt threatened. If you delve a little deeper into Islam, past the minority radicals who make the news, you find a religion that does actually teach peace, not too far off from Christianity.

You find a religion that teaches the same absurd rituals with different trappings. You find a religion that preaches that it is the only way to Heaven and that all others have it wrong, just like Christianity. You find a religion that preaches that followers will receive favorable treatment from the inherent forces in the universe, while non-followers will be punished. You find a religion that preaches that blind faith in the face of basic good judgement will be rewarded. You find... a standard Abrahamic religion. They are all the same, other than the trappings.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 33):
Conservatives always seem to need an enemy of some sort. abolitionists; communists; liberals; women's libbers; gays and lesbians; Muslims.

I think the reason is that, without an enemy, they cannot justify much of their ideology. If they can't scare people into voting for them, then they're toast.

Sigh... I think you need to meet and talk with some average Joe conservatives. You keep stereotyping and misunderstanding them and only seem to be listening to the extreme 10%. You do realize you're doing the exact same thing as some posters equating the most radical Muslims with all Muslims? Most conservatives are good people that simply just disagree with your point of view. Not all of them blow up abortion clinics, hate women, are homophobic, etc. SAME thing as implying that you and anyone left-of-center is a Marxist-Leninist-Zaoist. When talking about party platform, it becomes a bit more black and right, but honestly, does the Democrat party represent 100% of your views?

Source: person who knows extreme right wingers but far more normal right-of-center wingers
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vikkyvik
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
And that is the current popular defintion of a Mandrass for the US.

Clearly, as it's what you said here:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
That's not the way I read it. A mandrassa is just a gateway school to more fervent Jihadist education and eventually a short life as a suicide bomber.


Maybe I'm missing something....

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
Democrats are just as bad. Neither party is blameless.

So, that gives the right a free pass? I don't think so.

No he is just pointing out to the other poster that it's not one party becoming a monster, it's politicians in general. Neither extreme is good

Thank you. It's amazing that you actually have to point that out; some people are so incredibly ready to be offended or to argue about non-argumentative points!

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 33):
Conservatives always seem to need an enemy of some sort. abolitionists; communists; liberals; women's libbers; gays and lesbians; Muslims.

I think the reason is that, without an enemy, they cannot justify much of their ideology. If they can't scare people into voting for them, then they're toast.

Hmmm. It's funny you should say that, considering that in doing so, you are making an enemy of conservatives.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 33):
Conservatives always seem to need an enemy of some sort. abolitionists; communists; liberals; women's libbers; gays and lesbians; Muslims.

I think the reason is that, without an enemy, they cannot justify much of their ideology. If they can't scare people into voting for them, then they're toast.

Hmmm. It's funny you should say that, considering that in doing so, you are making an enemy of conservatives.

That's what I'm trying to point out here... I know it's cliche, but people really need to step in the shoes of others. You cannot effectively debate and win the minds of others over if you completely misunderstand their point of view or if you insult them in some way (by name calling or labeling.) Doesn't make it right even if the other side does it, all it does it make the person being called a name become enraged and defensive, and no logical exchange can occur
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smittyone
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 10):
Not that religion. As with the new curriculum in Arizona, which states they will only let the Bible be taught, that's where the author of this post is headed.

Speaking of this, I saw the funniest comment on a story about the new Arizona law:

"Can we just goddamn let the south cecede already? Seriously, this has been a 100 year war of aggression against the north now."

LOL


I think the reason that private schools of any variety can do different teaching styles etc. is because they've got more control over the kids in the class to begin with. If the kids misbehave and the teachers tell the parents there is hell to pay at home because mom and dad are paying good money and/or are concerned that the child doesn't get kicked out of the school. Public school teachers are too busy trying to get the kids to sit down and shut up (with no help from home in many cases) to delve into accommodating different learning styles.

So religion is not the answer, getting mom and dad to hold the kids accountable at home is. Unfortunately too many parents can't even take care of themselves.

So regardless of the representative's motivations, his goal of making public schools more like private schools is a pipe dream as long as the entering argument of public education is that everyone deserves an education no matter how uncommitted they or their parents are to that goal.
 
TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 10):
Not that religion.

So which religion is OK?

For those on the right? Fundamental Christianity is the only game in town.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 39):
For those on the right? Fundamental Christianity is the only game in town.

Tell that to my Republican atheist friends  

Or my Muslim Republican friend for that matter...

Please stop stereotyping!
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TecumsehSherman
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
Quoting TecumsehSherman (Reply 39):
For those on the right? Fundamental Christianity is the only game in town.

Tell that to my Republican atheist friends

Or my Muslim Republican friend for that matter...

Please stop stereotyping!

Maybe it's time to hit the water cooler and take a break, friend. If it really bothers you that much.

The fact is one of the dominant forces within the GOP is fundamental Christianity. You may not like it, your atheist and Muslim Republican friends may not like that, but it is a fact.

Republicans that are atheist and Muslim, I'd wager, are not a large percentage of the GOP, and I doubt they're looked upon very kindly in that strange organization today.
 
jcs17
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:15 am

Imagine if an Evangelical Christian like Michelle Bachmann (who I dislike) suggesting that she wanted to model American schools after a Protestant school-model (not that one even exists). The howls on the left would be deafening. You have an American representative suggesting that schools should be modeled after madrassahs -- where the primary goal is to learn and recite the Koran and Democrats are defending this guy? Are you f'ing kidding me?

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have such a program, and look what they have produced. Millions of radicalized men who consider murder a justified cause if people don't practice Islam. You have millions of men in Pakistan who don't even know basic English, basic Math, but abhor Hindus and Indians. This is what madrassahs produce.

I'm so sick and disgusted that Western people have actually defended this guy. Gay men who support this guy, go to your nearest Mosque and try to defend your homosexuality.
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seb146
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):
are there a few loudmouths and a bunch of politicians that make a big deal of it? I think you'd find they are in the minority,
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
It's funny you should say that, considering that in doing so, you are making an enemy of conservatives.

Why, then, do right-wing voters keep voting those loud mouths into office? Those ones who's sole purpose in life is to make Obama a one term president and nothing more? Zero compromise (remember before 1994?) and telling anyone that any other opinions are terroristic and should be dismissed. Listen to all right-wing talking points and they say the same thing: Anyone who disagrees with the script is un-American and needs to be kicked out of the Christian nation known as The United States of America.

If you look at the policies of Barak Obama, they are nearly on par with Ronald Reagan and just about with George H.W. Bush! People stroking the egos of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, FOX "News" et al. have pushed this country so far to the right that neither HW nor Reagan could be elected as a Republican today. Even Nixon would be degraded and drummed out of the party for being the worst anti-American ever: a "liberal".

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
It's amazing that you actually have to point that out

Then stop feeding into the rehtoric and just don't say anything about it at all.
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jcs17
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:19 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
Why, then, do right-wing voters keep voting those loud mouths into office? Those ones who's sole purpose in life is to make Obama a one term president and nothing more? Zero compromise (remember before 1994?) and telling anyone that any other opinions are terroristic and should be dismissed. Listen to all right-wing talking points and they say the same thing: Anyone who disagrees with the script is un-American and needs to be kicked out of the Christian nation known as The United States of America.

If you look at the policies of Barak Obama, they are nearly on par with Ronald Reagan and just about with George H.W. Bush! People stroking the egos of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, FOX "News" et al. have pushed this country so far to the right that neither HW nor Reagan could be elected as a Republican today. Even Nixon would be degraded and drummed out of the party for being the worst anti-American ever: a "liberal".

Here is what I want you to do:

1. Drive to the Islamic Center of Portland. It's at 10323 SW 4th Ave., Portland

2. Walk into in the Mosque and proclaim your homosexuality during prayer hours. Be honest. Yell that you have sex with men.

3. Tell the Imam you have solidarity with their cause in Palestine.

C'mon tough guy, you have no problem calling out Republicans. Let's see if you even dare doing the same thing in a Mosque.
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Superfly
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:03 am

Seems like every election year, there is a new member that pays to join and only post political propaganda, then disappears after the election. Same thing happened in 2000, 2004, 2008 and looks like it's happened again this time around.

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 42):
Imagine if an Evangelical Christian like Michelle Bachmann (who I dislike) suggesting that she wanted to model American schools after a Protestant school-model (not that one even exists). The howls on the left would be deafening. You have an American representative suggesting that schools should be modeled after madrassahs -- where the primary goal is to learn and recite the Koran and Democrats are defending this guy? Are you f'ing kidding me?

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have such a program, and look what they have produced. Millions of radicalized men who consider murder a justified cause if people don't practice Islam. You have millions of men in Pakistan who don't even know basic English, basic Math, but abhor Hindus and Indians. This is what madrassahs produce.

I'm so sick and disgusted that Western people have actually defended this guy. Gay men who support this guy, go to your nearest Mosque and try to defend your homosexuality.


  
Amen!

If members here actually listened to Congressman Carson's full speech, he goes on to speak as if America's educational system hasn't produced any successful people. That is why this man is completely off base. His suggestions are completely unnecessary.
Many schools in Indianapolis are doing fine, even those is poor neighborhoods still manage to do well and WITHOUT adopting Madrassa style teaching. Congressman Carson is just shooting off at the mouth again to grab headlines.

http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...pite-high-poverty-other-challenges
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Maverick623
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:17 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
The "Freedom of Religion" was to protect the various christian religions in the various colonies

That is one of the most perverse perversions of history I have ever seen.

Sorry, but if that were the case, the 1st Amendment would read "The government shall not ... prohibit the free excersice of the various Christian Religions".

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
Actually in the case of the latter the US would have our first war with them in short order as we where forced to bombard various north african ports to destroy pilots that followed that religon.

You mean the Barbary War, which ended with a declaration by Congress that the US was NOT a Christian nation?
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vikkyvik
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
Then stop feeding into the rehtoric and just don't say anything about it at all.

I have no idea what you're talking about. How on Earth is this:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
Democrats are just as bad. Neither party is blameless.

...feeding either side's rhetoric???

(that's the quote you originally responded to)

Look, I listen to both sides (well, try to avoid listening to both sides might be more accurate), and read/hear the partisan vitriol from Republicans and Democrats. Hence me saying "neither party is blameless".

I don't know why right-wingers do certain things, as I'm not one. I don't know why left-wingers do either; I'm not one of them either.

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 42):
Imagine if an Evangelical Christian like Michelle Bachmann (who I dislike) suggesting that she wanted to model American schools after a Protestant school-model (not that one even exists). The howls on the left would be deafening. You have an American representative suggesting that schools should be modeled after madrassahs -- where the primary goal is to learn and recite the Koran and Democrats are defending this guy? Are you f'ing kidding me?

I'm not a Democrat or a leftie, but if Bachmann said such and specified what she was talking about, like Carson did (i.e. talking about visual vs. auditory vs. kinetic/tactile learners, and catering to each of them), I wouldn't have a problem with it. Seriously, I don't understand why I would. Advice or criticism isn't automatically invalidated because it comes from a source with whom I don't agree on all views.
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GBLKD
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:06 am

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 42):
You have millions of men in Pakistan who don't even know basic English

The dominant language in Pakistan is Urdu, why would every Pakistani man need to know basic English? How much basic Urdu did your school teach you?
 
aloges
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RE: US Rep Wants To Pattern Schools After Madrasses

Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:12 am

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 42):
You have millions of men in Pakistan who don't even know basic English, basic Math, but abhor Hindus and Indians. This is what madrassahs produce.

You've got the very same in China and they manage it completely without religion.

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 44):
Walk into in the Mosque and proclaim your homosexuality during prayer hours. Be honest. Yell that you have sex with men.

Walk into a house of worship and disrupt the prayer? That'll land anyone in trouble anywhere.

[Edited 2012-07-08 01:13:58]
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