einsteinboricua
Topic Author
Posts: 4666
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ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:43 pm

It's no secret that many states that have turned red have been passing laws to require ID to vote. Maybe it's because back home everyone is required to present a voter's card (any ID won't do, it HAS to be the electoral card), but I fail to see why this is bad. Am I missing something that this has become an issue? And please, don't come with it's just X party doing as it pleases...there has to be a reason.

Of course, PA's senate raises a very interesting view as to why they want voter IDs and I have to wonder if this is really what all the states want...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8

But is there something wrong with getting an ID and going to vote? I don't see why that is a turn off to go to the polls...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:06 pm

Imo there is absolutely nothing wrong with having an ID and proving who you are to vote.

After all we are required so show ID to ---

Open a bank account
Buy alcohol
Buy tobbaco
Served at a bar
Register at College
Get a drivers license or other government ID
Cash welfare checks
Get a fishing license
Check-in and travel at the airport
Applying for a job
Get a library card
Obtaining a on-street parking pass
Taking the ACT/SAT exams for college
Buying a car
Applying for government benefits (eg social secuirty, medicare)
Taking professional exams like CPA, law, etc.
Renting a home
Buying a house
Seeing a doctor
......................

Frankly this should be a non-partisan debate. Having a simple control to ensure the validity of the process works in a host of other areas in life, so protecting something as key as voting is a no brainer to me.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BMI727
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):
I fail to see why this is bad.

Same here. When I first heard about the issue my reaction was "you don't have to now!?"

And the whole conspiracy thing is moot in my state since elderly, disabled, and homeless people get cards for free. And if you're not in one of those groups, the cost is all of $20. I suspect other states are similar.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
einsteinboricua
Topic Author
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:22 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):
I fail to see why this is bad.

Same here. When I first heard about the issue my reaction was "you don't have to now!?"

And the whole conspiracy thing is moot in my state since elderly, disabled, and homeless people get cards for free. And if you're not in one of those groups, the cost is all of $20. I suspect other states are similar.

I actually thought you HAD to present a specific ID. Back in PR, there's no such thing as presenting your license or passport: you need to get an electoral card which remains active for as long as you are an active voter. I find the system fair: it ensures that only registered voters to go out and vote.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Imo there is absolutely nothing wrong with having an ID and proving who you are to vote.

Exactly...and many people already have an ID whether it's their driver's license or a passport. Many states, IIRC, will simply ask the voter to present it (some might want an official state-issued ID, while others I suppose will be fine with any picture ID).

[Edited 2012-07-13 10:25:59]
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
mbmbos
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:28 pm

I fail to see the need for requiring voters to present IDs. Why? For what purpose?

Even Republicans, after conducting several exhaustive studies, have failed to demonstrate any major sort of voter fraud over the past twenty years.

So what is the purpose of requiring IDs? We know for certain it discourages people from voting, especially elderly who often don't have means to travel to government offices to obtain voter ID and poor people who don't have money to register for ID.

Again, what is the point of requiring ID?
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 5):
Again, what is the point of requiring ID?

Maybe ensuring the lowest fraud percentage. There was a report that in Florida an alien resident actually voted in the elections...if these are the people for whom the Democrats are against the law, then I'm sorry but I cross party lines on this issue and side with Republicans. I don't think Russian officials would be happy if I went and voted in their elections without being officially registered to vote, even if I vote for the governing party. I don't see why the same cannot be applied back here.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
fr8mech
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 5):
Again, what is the point of requiring ID?

At the point of registration: in order to prove that the person registering to vote is indeed the person who is registering and that person is indeed eligible to vote.

At the poll: in order to prove that the person presenting himself at the poll is indeed the person registered to vote.

Simple, right?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mbmbos
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Simple, right?

There is little to no fraud. So what's the point of making citizens jump through yet another hoop?
 
fr8mech
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 8):
So what's the point of making citizens jump through yet another hoop?

Why do you carry a drivers' license?
Why do you provide ID when making a credit card purchase?
Why do you provide ID when you present your medical insurance card?
When you cash a check?
When you open a bank account?
When you get your mail from the post office?
When you enter certain government buildings?
When you apply for a job?
When you apply for SSI benefits?
When you apply for SNAP?
When you apply for a loan?
When you enroll in school?
When you get on an aircraft?
When you register a vehicle?
When you obtain insurance?
When you purchase a firearm?
When you pick up a perscription, especially a Schedule II or III drug?
When you buy alcohol?
When you make a transaction at a bank?

Heck, you need ID to get certain other ID's

You provide identification to prove that you are who and what you say you are. Really, that simple. It's not a hoop. The vast majority of people already have an ID in order to function in society. Those that don't, should be provided one free of cost.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mt99
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
Those that don't, should be provided one free of cost.

And increase the deficit?
Step into my office, baby
 
mbmbos
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
Why do you carry a drivers' license?
Why do you provide ID when making a credit card purchase?.....

I could use this same argument to require an ID to cross the street, to get my hair dyed, to buy chewing gum.

It's a weak argument.

In each of the examples you cited, there is a history behind why they became requirements, most often involving fraud or other deception. A required ID with credit card is due to a history of credit card fraud, for example.

But in the case of voter ID, there is virtually no fraud.

So we're on a nationwide campaign to impose ID laws for fraud that hasn't happened, that will most likely discourage many people from voting; the very people who are most likely to vote for a Democratic candidate, by the way.

Oh, those noble Republicans!

It's disingenuous to the core.
 
rampart
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:27 pm

I would be OK with voter ID if my preference for election procedures would be enacted:

paper ballots, or electronic ones that provide a paper receipt
voting over an entire week, or perhaps an entire 3-day weekend, including some days polls open 24 hours
cessation of active campaigning during that voting period
no calling of races prior to polls closing, moratorium on exit polling
polls closing at same time nationally, if they're open until 7pm in Hawaii, they have to be open 1am on the East Coast (and open at 1am in Hawaii if they open at 7am on the East Coast, that way everyone gets their shot at late night or early morning voting).

For all that, I think we'd need a free voter registration card (if a passport or drivers license was unavailable) to keep track of who voted. It would be bar-coded for recognition, to avoid repeat voting. Maybe the Post Office could do it, that way they could stay open on Saturdays.  

-Rampart
 
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Tugger
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Frankly this should be a non-partisan debate. Having a simple control to ensure the validity of the process works in a host of other areas in life, so protecting something as key as voting is a no brainer to me.

To me it is non-partisan, I am a Republican and I do not agree with the concept of presenting an ID at the polls. WHen you register sure. At the polls no, it adds no layer of security that will impact anythi8gn more that actually proper controls on the voting process. Will it impact me if it is implemented? No. Could there be some level of fraud? perhaps but research has shown it to be virtually non-existent and not favoring any one direction (party).

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 3):
I actually thought you HAD to present a specific ID. Back in PR, there's no such thing as presenting your license or passport: you need to get an electoral card which remains active for as long as you are an active voter. I find the system fair: it ensures that only registered voters to go out and vote.

Different states have different rules, there is no standard on the federal level.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 4):
I fail to see the need for requiring voters to present IDs. Why? For what purpose?

Even Republicans, after conducting several exhaustive studies, have failed to demonstrate any major sort of voter fraud over the past twenty years.

  

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 5):
Maybe ensuring the lowest fraud percentage. There was a report that in Florida an alien resident actually voted in the elections...if these are the people for whom the Democrats are against the law, then I'm sorry but I cross party lines on this issue and side with Republicans. I don't think Russian officials would be happy if I went and voted in their elections without being officially registered to vote, even if I vote for the governing party. I don't see why the same cannot be applied back here.

So you take the "report" that one person may have voted illegally as a reason to take action everywhere? What else do you apply that standard to? Where one reported incident means everything/everyone must change how they do things? Guns? Driving? Food safety? Cause we don't, so again: Where?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):
At the point of registration: in order to prove that the person registering to vote is indeed the person who is registering and that person is indeed eligible to vote.

At the poll: in order to prove that the person presenting himself at the poll is indeed the person registered to vote.

Simple, right?

No, not so simple. Sure when registering but at the polls no. What do you have to do for banking? What about online banking? You have to prove yourself upfront and then after you just do basic login stuff there after. Others have pointed out healthcare/insurance but there also, you just have to show a card not you ID along with it (at least not at the three system I have been a part of). You basically prove who you are upfront and then don't have to do more "officially" (using a government approved ID) afterwards. There are many instances where the proof is needed up front but not afterwards. For voting you need to prove you belong on the voting rolls then after that just show up and vote.

I dare anyone here to go ahead and vote in someone else's name. Go ahead, its easy, there is no risk and it is rampant apparently. So what is the problem? I'll tell you what it is, it is not easy and does not happen as a wide spread problem in a way that impacts results. What impacts results are the backroom stuff, the ballot stuffing and vote tampering that can occur, THAT is where all the efforts need to be concentrated.

Having a bunch of volunteers check peoples ID"s once every two years while they sit in their garage will do NOTHING for preventing voter fraud as those people will simply work to get it done anyway as they are obviously committed to doing it. ID checking at the POLS will be as useful as the TSA, all theater, no real effect.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
fr8mech
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 9):
And increase the deficit?


Well, we could always cut services to illegal aliens to pay for it....

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 10):
that will most likely discourage many people from voting;


How does it discourage voters, if the vast majority of people already have an ID. And, those that don't can get one without charge?

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
paper ballots, or electronic ones that provide a paper receipt


All for it.

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
voting over an entire week, or perhaps an entire 3-day weekend, including some days polls open 24 hours


Nope. Vote on election day, or get an absentee ballot. And, control the absentee ballots.

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
cessation of active campaigning during that voting period


I think that's probably already a law in many states.

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
no calling of races prior to polls closing, moratorium on exit polling


Agreed.

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
polls closing at same time nationally,


So long as media outlets in NY don't start calling the race before the polls in HI close, I don't see an issue.

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
What about online banking? You have to prove yourself upfront and then after you just do basic login stuff there after.


I show an ID whenever I go to the bank. If we ever get to online voting (shudder), we'll worry about that kind of fraud.

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
you just have to show a card not you ID along with it


I just showed my ID and insurance card to 2 different doctors' offices.

Look, I would much rather have very stringent controls on the registration process, but with these stupid motor/voter laws and all these active community organizer campaigns to get every Jacob, Mason & William (let's not leave out Sophia, Isabella & Emma) registered, we just don't have the controls in place. So, I think that if Jack MaHogoff shows up at the polls to vote, he should prove that he is, indeed, Jack MaHogoff.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 10):
the very people who are most likely to vote for a Democratic candidate


Why? Is getting an ID too hard for Democrats? I fail to understand why Democrats will be more hard hit. I would suspect those that lean to the Right would be more hard hit. You know, Libertarians, militia types, those that fear big government and live off the grid.

Tell me...why are Blacks, Hispanics and the elderly (these are the traditional Democratic voting groups cited most) more unlikely to be able to get a government issued ID? Tell me...is something wrong with these groups?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
rampart
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Nope. Vote on election day, or get an absentee ballot. And, control the absentee ballots.

A few countries have multiple day elections (Czech Republic and Italy, for instance). And I think a majority of nations hold theirs on a weekend day, rather than midweek. Curious, what is your opposition to multiple day election? Absentee balloting is similar, but probably not as effective in generating response. The U.S. has among the poorest voter turnout of any of the industrialized nations, I'm interested in increasing that turnout.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
I think that's probably already a law in many states.

Yes. Near polling places. But not in the media or advertising, which goes on (I think, or maybe I'm so brain numb by that time I can't help but hear it like ringing in the ears). Just show pictures of the candidates slipping their ballot into the box at their home polling place, leave it at that.

-Rampart
 
flymia
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:46 pm

I have to show my drivers license at the poll. If it didn't than anyone could walk in say hey I am "flymia" and can I got vote now. I think it's insane to not show any ID to go vote. Florida has 180k on their votes list who's immigration status is suspicious, I.E. they might not be citizens maybe legal resident but not citizens. That's a huge problem. Citizens vote and that's it. But there is fraud in plenty of places. And from what I have personally witnessed it comes from one side mainly...

I registered to vote on my 18th birthday and from what I remember it was a very easy process. They either need to make the registering part much more difficult or make ID a requirement at the polls. It can't be both ways.

People really think there is not voting fraud?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...istrationwoes.html?prmid=head_main

I have personally helped in voter registration at naturalization ceremonies in 2008. Trust me there are problems with the system. From one group of "volunteers" if the "R" was checked that form went into the garbage. Everything has some sort of fraud.
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chrisair
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
When you cash a check?

I don't have to show an ID when I cash a check at my bank.

But then I haven't actually been in a bank in a few months. I just use mobile deposit or the ATM deposit. No ID required, no standing in line etc.
 
fr8mech
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Curious, what is your opposition to multiple day election?


In Texas, among other states, there is early voting. I can't recall the period, but it's something like 2 or 3 weeks prior to election day, you can go to a central location within the various cities and vote. I participated. But, I'm not a fan of it.

Let's say, I vote on day 1 of the voting period. Let's say on day 2, something comes out about my candidate that would have changed my mind. I'm stuck.

I like a very specific time frame to vote. As short as practical. It reduces the opportunity for fraud.

And, here's the patriotic type in me coming out, election days are well known and the polls tend to be open for 12-14 hours depending on the state. Surely, you can make the time to get to the polls. If you're not in town or have a legitimate excuse (as defined by whatever statute a state cares to pass), then get an absentee ballot.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Mir
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
Let's say, I vote on day 1 of the voting period. Let's say on day 2, something comes out about my candidate that would have changed my mind. I'm stuck.

But you know that there's a possibility of that when you go to vote early. So you'd only have yourself to blame for locking yourself in.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
And, here's the patriotic type in me coming out, election days are well known and the polls tend to be open for 12-14 hours depending on the state. Surely, you can make the time to get to the polls.

A lot of people have a hard time getting time off work to go to the polls, especially with the longer lines that have been showing up in recent elections. People who work two jobs are probably SOL.

-Mir
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einsteinboricua
Topic Author
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
So you take the "report" that one person may have voted illegally as a reason to take action everywhere?

No, and I doubt these votes may alter the outcome of an election, but if this can happen in one place, it can happen in other places as well. Why is it too much to ask for ANY ID when at the polls? It's just perplexing...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
lewis
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 16):
But then I haven't actually been in a bank in a few months. I just use mobile deposit or the ATM deposit. No ID required, no standing in line etc.

Depositing a check that is in your name and it is deposited in that account holder's name leaves little room for fraud, unless the check itself is fraudulent, which is a different story. If you want to get cash in hand instead of depositing, you will be asked for an ID.
 
BMI727
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 10):
So we're on a nationwide campaign to impose ID laws for fraud that hasn't happened, that will most likely discourage many people from voting; the very people who are most likely to vote for a Democratic candidate, by the way.

If you're too lazy to get an ID (possibly for free!) to do all of the myriad things that require such in modern society, chances are you're far too lazy to register to vote or vote.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Okie
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
There is little to no fraud. So what's the point of making citizens jump through yet another hoop?

Obviously, you have never to the polling place to vote and found out someone has used your name to vote.

So my question to you is: Why do you feel it is so important to disenfranchise my vote by letting someone else vote for me without ID.

I will leave it at that, just answer the question.

Okie
 
Maverick623
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:33 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
and the polls tend to be open for 12-14 hours depending on the state. Surely, you can make the time to get to the polls.

  

You've clearly never had a job where you worked 16 hour days, or have to commute a long distance, or maybe are out of town on business (or maybe it's your job to be out of town, ie, a pilot or flight attendant).

This is really disturbing coming from a supposed business owner.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
fr8mech
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
You've clearly never had a job where you worked 16 hour days, or have to commute a long distance,


My current shift is 13 hours and I work on Tuesdays. I've also worked 13 hour shifts on the night shift.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
or maybe are out of town on business (or maybe it's your job to be out of town, ie, a pilot or flight attendant).


Did you miss the part where I said:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
Surely, you can make the time to get to the polls. If you're not in town or have a legitimate excuse (as defined by whatever statute a state cares to pass), then get an absentee ballot.


I'm not against absentee ballots. I've used them in the past (20 years ago) when I traveled for a living. They just need to be controlled. I can't recall...are they or their envelope serialized? If not, why not? I want a fixed deadline, sometime before election day, for the ballots to be returned, so that they can be counted on election day.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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modernArt
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 10):
It's disingenuous to the core.
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Te...voter-ID-law-s-effects-3697494.php

Victoria Rose Rodriguez, 18, told a federal court in Washington that she had limited documentation — a birth certificate, a high school transcript and a student ID card with a photo on it — but is currently a registered voter in Texas. She said her parents are too busy to take her or her twin sister to get the new voter identification cards required by the law. Getting a driver's license also is not an option, she said, because it would mean she and her sister would be added to her family's car insurance, a costly move. "My dad works all day," she said. "And my mother is the sole caretaker for my grandmother."

Funny, she had time to fly to Washington, D.C. (sans I.D. of course) to testify about not having to time to get a proper I.D. She's able to ride the bus to get anywhere she needs to in San Antonio. And she wouldn't be added to her parents auto insurance unless she chooses to drive.

Now who's being disingenuous again?
 
Maverick623
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
I want a fixed deadline, sometime before election day, for the ballots to be returned, so that they can be counted on election day.

Um... that's exactly what early voting does. I'm not sure why you would be for "absentee" ballots, but against "early voting". They're pretty much the same thing.

Quoting modernart (Reply 25):
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Te...voter-ID-law-s-effects-3697494.php

This is EXACTLY what is wrong with people. Zero personal responsibility (she's 18 and shouldn't be relying on her parents for anything), and telling outright lies in order to further an agenda. IMO, she should be charged with perjury for lying about being put on her parent's insurance policy. Also, she doesn't need a driver's license. Texas (like all states) issues non-driver ID cards for a small fee.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
fr8mech
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 26):
Um... that's exactly what early voting does. I'm not sure why you would be for "absentee" ballots, but against "early voting". They're pretty much the same thing.

Didn't say I was against it, just not a fan of it. I wouldn't use it again if it was available to me, unless it was absolutely necessary to cast my vote.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
ltbewr
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:33 pm

I have worked at 2 elections in my community here in NJ (2007-2008) so familiar with the issue. Generally ID was, and from a recent check of NJ Voting rules, not required except for a the first vote after a new registration or when a person is new to the voting district due to moving, their signature didn't match the book, if their name was not able to be found in the book or to vote by provisional ballot. Even then, the ID rules didn't mandate a drivers license and allowed a variety of photo and non-photo ID as to name and residency. There were a small number of people whom we had to ask for ID from for reasons as I stated above and in at least 2 cases could not vote.

I think one of the key problems that has led to demands for ID Laws is that we have made it too easy without sufficient verification of identity and residency to register to vote. Generally since the 1970's, it is usually done by mail. On the form, you state your birth place, birth date, Social Security Number, residency and sign that you are telling the truth. 40 years ago when I first registered to vote, I had to show my raised seal official birth certificate and my non-picture drivers licence in person to a representative of the county government (they came to our school in the spring as the voting age had just been lowered from 21 to 18). Now one could use stolen identity or just lie and be registered. I presume most election boards do not verify but a fraction of registrations.

Another group of problems that has existed since the beginning of the USA is that voter registration records are rarely reviewed to check their accuracy nor are there mechanisms and sufficient funding to do so. Far too often dead people, those no longer residing in the district, with felony convictions or otherwise ineligible to vote are in the records. There is no requirement to notify the board of elections someone has died or moved or has a felony conviction. That opens up opportunities for their registrations to be use by others fraudulently.

Getting the required records to get the ID documents that some states are demanding for Voter ID can be very difficult and expensive for some. Many have lost the raised seal 'original' copies of their birth certificates or marriage licenses, divorce papers, naturalization papers due to theft, lost in moving, lost in natural disasters, fires, floods or family disputes. In some places, like Puerto Rico and Hudson County, NJ, the security of birth records have been compromised and one may have to get specially reissued raised seal documents which may have a substantial fee, may take some time or require other documents to get. In NY State, it may cost $60 or more to get a State certificate of birth registration if not available from the community you were born in. Some may not even have a birth certificate. In some complicated case, or of immigrants, it may require long distance travel to obtain documents or get them verified in person. Some see such requirements with their costs as a 'poll tax', especially if one doesn't drive or have little else need of 'official' government issued ID. That is especially sensitive to Blacks due to the long and bad history of being denied the right to vote and to the poor for whom voting is the only way they can have a say in the government.

To me, there should be uniform Federal standards for Voter ID that recognize issues of the poor so not to prevent them from voting, but we also need to find ways to make registration more secure and less suspect for fraud.
 
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Aesma
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:09 pm

First, I'm surprised this is going on in "red states" since I thought Republicans were the most opposed to the idea of mandatory IDs, a mandatory ID being the sign you live in a fascist state etc. I guess times change...

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 4):
So what is the purpose of requiring IDs? We know for certain it discourages people from voting, especially elderly who often don't have means to travel to government offices to obtain voter ID and poor people who don't have money to register for ID.

In France, where voter turn up is better than in the US, I can tell you the elderly vote far more than everybody else, and an ID is required. In fact you get a voter card in the mail, but registering when you move requires an ID, and the voter card is enough to vote only in small towns where "everybody knows everybody", in bigger towns a national ID is required on top (and the voter card becomes optional). The national ID is free and has to be remade every ten years, surely not that troubling when you're a pensioner.

In practice it means the results of the elections are more conservative than what the population is, maybe the Republicans learned about that ? Of course when you have a conservative candidate that is very unpopular and divisive, the right still loses, like just happened, for the first time the left has gained the presidency, the national assembly and the senate, along with most major cities and almost all régions ("states").

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
paper ballots, or electronic ones that provide a paper receipt
voting over an entire week, or perhaps an entire 3-day weekend, including some days polls open 24 hours
cessation of active campaigning during that voting period
no calling of races prior to polls closing, moratorium on exit polling
polls closing at same time nationally, if they're open until 7pm in Hawaii, they have to be open 1am on the East Coast (and open at 1am in Hawaii if they open at 7am on the East Coast, that way everyone gets their shot at late night or early morning voting).

For all that, I think we'd need a free voter registration card (if a passport or drivers license was unavailable) to keep track of who voted. It would be bar-coded for recognition, to avoid repeat voting. Maybe the Post Office could do it, that way they could stay open on Saturdays.

Good ideas, some of them already going on here, like the end of campaigning on Friday at midnight, when the vote is on Sundays. Even following last elections very closely I found it nice that everybody on TV/radio had to stop the rhetoric for a couple of days. Moratorium on exit polling is also covered, electronic voting machines, we have a few since our previous president wanted to copy the US and was in bed with companies making them, but they're very unpopular and quickly disappearing (I never saw one).

For the hours it's complicated, and I agree that it can cause frauds, it's better to have a very easy (but secure) system to vote by mail then the same UTC hours for the continental US maybe. Here you often have people from several parties doing the polling so they can see for themselves that no fraud is going on (and we have notorious cases of fraud in some places), so if voting is over several days and nights it gets impossible to always have somebody there.
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PITingres
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 29):
First, I'm surprised this is going on in "red states" since I thought Republicans were the most opposed to the idea of mandatory IDs, a mandatory ID being the sign you live in a fascist state etc.

No, Republicans like mandatory ID because it tends to exclude potential voters that usually vote Democrat (poor, black, and to some degree elderly).

I wouldn't mind a voter ID law if it were set up in such a way that the burden was on the state to ensure that all eligible voters could vote. That's not the case in most states, as far as I know, and most certainly not here in PA. Indeed, today's newspaper has a front page article detailing much of the foot-dragging and obstacles the (Republican-controlled) state executive branch has put in the way of registering.

[Edited 2012-07-15 07:11:09]
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fr8mech
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting PITingres (Reply 30):
No, Republicans like mandatory ID because it tends to exclude potential voters that usually vote Democrat (poor, black, and to some degree elderly).

Once again I ask:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Tell me...why are Blacks, Hispanics and the elderly (these are the traditional Democratic voting groups cited most) more unlikely to be able to get a government issued ID? Tell me...is something wrong with these groups?

Can a Democrat or Liberal tell me why these folks are incapable of securing an ID?

[Edited 2012-07-15 09:53:55]
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bjorn14
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
So you take the "report" that one person may have voted illegally as a reason to take action everywhere?

Just like liberals, who take a statistically irrelevant number in abortions (rape, incest, life of mother) and say all abortions should be legal.

Quoting modernart (Reply 25):
Funny, she had time to fly to Washington, D.C. (sans I.D. of course) to testify about not having to time to get a proper I.D. She's able to ride the bus to get anywhere she needs to in San Antonio. And she wouldn't be added to her parents auto insurance unless she chooses to drive.

Funny but sad, none of the brain-dead panel members asked her those questions.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:14 pm

I think having some method of identification should exist. Whether that be IDs or whatever

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 32):
Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
So you take the "report" that one person may have voted illegally as a reason to take action everywhere?

Just like liberals, who take a statistically irrelevant number in abortions (rape, incest, life of mother) and say all abortions should be legal.

I am against abortion, but that is NOT what liberals say


Whatever we decide as a country, IDs or not, I think it should be implemented after this election. Kinda takes the sketchiness out of it IMO. And it seems that states have systems in place to give IDs for free to poor people... how is that discouraging people? If they can't even do that they probably wouldn't have voted in the first place.
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PITingres
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
Can a Democrat or Liberal tell me why these folks are incapable of securing an ID?

I'm neither, but here are some of the reasons cited in the article:
- can't afford the DOT fees (the law requires the ID to be free but apparently some centers were initially charging anyway);
- don't have the required documents (birth certificate and two forms of residency proof) or can't come up with them in time, or can't afford the fees needed to get official duplicates (which may in turn require an ID ... a no-win circle);
- no way to get to a DOT office (this is a significant one, especially in a rural area, apparently some counties don't have a license center at all);
- DOT offices are only open a day or two a week and can't process more than a few per opening;
- can't afford the time off work to go sit in a DOT office (and perhaps multiple times if you don't make it to the front of the line the first time around -- and your number isn't saved day to day and as far as I know there's no way to make an appointment);

What's the most important here, though, is that people don't need to be "incapable" of getting an ID. All you need to do, if you're trying to affect the vote, is discourage enough poor and shut-in potential voters from getting an ID and you can swing local elections and maybe even the state. Voting is a fundamental right in a democracy and I think it should be the state's problem to ensure that everyone can vote. (Just like it's the state's problem to ensure that everyone at least has a shot at being sufficiently educated to vote semi-intelligently.) If the state feels that voter fraud is a problem it's up to them to make sure that legitimate voters can be identified. It should not be a burden carried by the individual voter.
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fr8mech
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting PITingres (Reply 34):
What's the most important here, though, is that people don't need to be "incapable" of getting an ID.


Still haven't answered the question:

Why are Blacks, Hispanics and the elderly disproportionately affected? Why isn't anyone screaming about the white folks in rural Appalachia? Are they somehow more capable?

Why Blacks, Hispanics and the elderly?

Quoting PITingres (Reply 34):
Voting is a fundamental right in a democracy and I think it should be the state's problem to ensure that everyone can vote.

And, it's also the states' problem to ensure only those eligible to vote, register to vote.

Quoting PITingres (Reply 34):
If the state feels that voter fraud is a problem it's up to them to make sure that legitimate voters can be identified.

So, how do we do that without an ID system?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
texan
Posts: 4059
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
Why do you carry a drivers' license?
Why do you provide ID when making a credit card purchase?
Why do you provide ID when you present your medical insurance card?
When you cash a check?
When you open a bank account?
When you get your mail from the post office?
When you enter certain government buildings?
When you apply for a job?
When you apply for SSI benefits?
When you apply for SNAP?
When you apply for a loan?
When you enroll in school?
When you get on an aircraft?
When you register a vehicle?
When you obtain insurance?
When you purchase a firearm?
When you pick up a perscription, especially a Schedule II or III drug?
When you buy alcohol?
When you make a transaction at a bank?

The people this law affects are predominantly poor. There are many people in our large cities and rural areas who may not have any government issued I.D. because they don't have a car or licence, a credit card, a medical insurance card, a checking account, a bank account at all, a P.O. Box, are on Social Security or welfare, apply for loans, enroll in schools, get on an aircraft, register a vehicle or firearm, have the ability to pay for prescriptions, or go to banks. They may take public transit or walk or bike places. The poor are potentially disenfranchised by these laws. If you make government-issued I.D.s free, then maybe there is an argument that one must present a government-issued I.D.

But the point of these laws seems to be to make it more difficult for the disadvantaged to have a voice. So issuing I.D. to people without charge would be a non-starter, wouldn't it?

This law doesn't affect us. It affects mostly those who society tends to forget about. This is yet another way to try to push those people out of sight and out of mind.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6623
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting texan (Reply 36):
This law doesn't affect us. It affects mostly those who society tends to forget about. This is yet another way to try to push those people out of sight and out of mind.

Ok, but I ask again:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
Why are Blacks, Hispanics and the elderly disproportionately affected? Why isn't anyone screaming about the white folks in rural Appalachia? Are they somehow more capable?
Quoting texan (Reply 36):
But the point of these laws seems to be to make it more difficult for the disadvantaged to have a voice.

No, the point of these laws are to assure that the people registering to vote are eligible and the people voting are the people that registered.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11099
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting texan (Reply 36):

So these poor, forgotten folks are somehow unable to go to get a (likely free) ID, but would still find in in themselves to get to a polling place?

Quoting texan (Reply 36):
If you make government-issued I.D.s free,

Many of them are free.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
aa757first
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:18 am

I didn't care much about this issue, but I did lean towards the pro-ID camp. It really seems unconscionable not to have government issued photo ID since you seem to need one nearly everyday. Have these people never been to bars?

Until I received a membership bulletin from the ACLU about it. They presented this interesting case: http://www.aclu.org/blog/voting-rights/let-ruthelle-vote . She's an 84 year old woman who was never issued a birth certificate. There is a record of birth, but it contains a typo and must be amended by a court proceeding. The entire thing would cost her in excess of $200. That's too much and, surprisingly, they also presented several other cases like it.

Since voting is an individual right, I'm extremely uncomfortable with the idea of a lawful citizen being denied the right to vote, especially since there's no evidence that voter fraud is much of a problem. Seems like a solution in search of a problem.
 
PITingres
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:22 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
So these poor, forgotten folks are somehow unable to go to get a (likely free) ID, but would still find in in themselves to get to a polling place?

The ID per se might be free. Getting to where you get the ID, with the proper paperwork, is likely not, and as I pointed out above, it quite possibly could take one all-day trip or even multiple trips. The polling place is almost certainly much more accessible (*) and you only have to be there for a few minutes.

(*) see above, PA doesn't even have ID centers in some counties, and I assure you that there are multiple polling places in each county.

Again, it's not about ensuring that people CAN'T get an ID. It's enough to make it tedious and annoying, and a lot of marginal voters will stay away. I find that anti-democratic on the part of the lawmakers.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):

Quoting PITingres (Reply 34):
If the state feels that voter fraud is a problem it's up to them to make sure that legitimate voters can be identified.

So, how do we do that without an ID system?

That's the state's problem.   I have nothing against an ID system per se. What I am against is a system that makes it inconvenient to vote. How about an ID system with registration actively funded by the state, with some sort of exception system for "known residents" like Ms Ruthelle mentioned by aa757first? Isn't that the reason for having poll judges (or whatever you call them) in each polling place anyway? Why have them, if not for dealing with exceptions?
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rampart
Posts: 1798
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:30 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
Still haven't answered the question:

Why are Blacks, Hispanics and the elderly disproportionately affected? Why isn't anyone screaming about the white folks in rural Appalachia? Are they somehow more capable?

You are just asking what you already know, since you also threw in rural Appalachia. It has to do with income and the type of work for that income. If it's a financial burder, it's less likely to obtain the ID. The financial burden tends, TENDS, to be dispropotionately weighted in Black and Hispanic demographics... as well as with the rural poor. I assum for rural Appalachia, it would apply to some of those people as well, but think about it, how many of them are there in total numbers (compared to the minority low income across the country), and how big is their representation? Not much. They also need fair treatment, but you probably don't hear about it.

-Rampart
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:33 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
Why do you carry a drivers' license?
Why do you provide ID when making a credit card purchase?
Why do you provide ID when you present your medical insurance card?
When you cash a check?
When you open a bank account?
When you get your mail from the post office?
When you enter certain government buildings?
When you apply for a job?
When you apply for SSI benefits?
When you apply for SNAP?
When you apply for a loan?
When you enroll in school?
When you get on an aircraft?
When you register a vehicle?
When you obtain insurance?
When you purchase a firearm?
When you pick up a perscription, especially a Schedule II or III drug?
When you buy alcohol?
When you make a transaction at a bank?

DO the ID required to do anything of the above show that you are legally allowed to vote?
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Dreadnought
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting PITingres (Reply 34):
Voting is a fundamental right in a democracy and I think it should be the state's problem to ensure that everyone can vote.

Voting is a QUALIFIED right. Not everyone can vote. The qualifications are clearly put down in the Constitution - you must be a citizen. You must be 18 years of age. Only one vote is allowed per citizen.

Considering the rampant identity theft that goes on in this country (only an idiot would deny that is happening), it is entirely reasonable for a minimal impact confirmation at the polling place that simply provides society at large that you are who you say you are when coming in to vote. We are not talking about a blood sample, DNA testing and fingerprints. We are talking about a photo with your name next to it.

Anyone who thinks this is excessive should either have their head examined, or are quite intentionally lying about their reasons for why they want a free-for-all at the polling places.
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bjorn14
Posts: 3552
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting aa757first (Reply 39):
especially since there's no evidence that voter fraud is much of a problem.

Colorado just found 430 illegal aliens who voted in the 2010 election and that was without the DHS database.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 39):
Until I received a membership bulletin from the ACLU about it. They presented this interesting case: http://www.aclu.org/blog/voting-rights/let-ruthelle-vote . She's an 84 year old woman who was never issued a birth certificate. There is a record of birth, but it contains a typo and must be amended by a court proceeding. The entire thing would cost her in excess of $200. That's too much and, surprisingly, they also presented several other cases like it.

The ACLU probably spent more in lawyer's fees than just helping this poor woman out. Ever hear of Legal Aid or pro bono?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 44):

Colorado just found 430 illegal aliens who voted in the 2010 election and that was without the DHS database.

430! out of over 1.7 million votes? That almost 0.05%

If you want Government run like a business, you would not spend a dime to fix a 0.05% "error"
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casinterest
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:42 pm

Is it me , or does anyone else find it ironic that most of the supporters of less government and regulationL usuallly because they don't trust Government power, constantly try to come up with ways to regulate and increase government oversight of folks just because they don't trust other people?
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PITingres
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 43):
Anyone who thinks this is excessive should either have their head examined, or are quite intentionally lying about their reasons for why they want a free-for-all at the polling places.

Or, just maybe, anyone claiming that there have been "free-for-all's" at polling places with "rampant fraud", is intentionally lying about THAT. After all, I've seen no figures ... zero, none, nothing, nada ... from ANY voter-ID enthusiast demonstrating that there are even measurable levels of fraud, never mind significant levels. (Remember folks, there ARE polling-place judges and voter lists. It's not like you walk unobserved into an empty room to vote. At least not in my county, and I don't think in yours either.) Right now, today, we have between 100000 and 150000 registered voters in PA lacking ID, the exact figure depending on whose numbers you believe. That is several orders of magnitude larger than any proven or even claimed voter fraud, and hence is the much more serious problem.

I still contend that modern federal law sees voting as a FUNDAMENTAL right for adult citizens. Qualifications of property, income, race, or sex have been discarded for decades if not centuries. If you don't agree with that, we don't even have a common ground to argue from.

And, just one more time, I'm not against voter ID per se. I am against voter ID laws that put the onus on the voter and absolve the state from doing anything material to help, and that take final judgment out of the hands of the local polling officials with no recourse.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6623
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 42):
DO the ID required to do anything of the above show that you are legally allowed to vote?

No, but the ID I present DOES prove that I am who I claim to be.

[Edited 2012-07-16 10:17:06]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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casinterest
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RE: ID Laws...am I Missing Something?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 48):

No, but the ID I present DOES prove that I am who I claim to be.

Sure, but how often do you hear about folks that try to vote as someone else?

I
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