TheCommodore
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US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:18 am

"THE US will "use all elements of its power" to keep Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton declared after meeting top Israeli officials."

Really ?

She then goes on to say, "Israel and the U.S were "on the same page" regarding Iran." Yet Israel favors military action and the US diplomatic....

Doesn't seem like the same page to me, sounds more like a load of BS. Just more empty rhetoric and pandering to the Israelis.

Isn't it about time this stopped, perhaps it will once H Clinton moves along, sometime soon I hope. It very clear she's not up to the job, never has. It was only offered to her to placate, and nothing more.

Evidently, during her visit, she was at pains to "underscore" Americas support for Israel, despite all the illegal settlement building etc. Whats more telling though, is what she didn't say during her many meetings with the Israeli hierarchy, and that's where the US stands on Palestine.

IMHO, America is just making the entire situation worse in the ME, with its unquestioning support for a Government/country that doesn't deserve it.  http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...nukes/story-fnddckzi-1226427721051
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
perhaps it will once H Clinton moves along

I'm not so sure, she's pretty liberal. Not saying this issue has strict conservative vs liberal views, but can you imagine who Romney may put in? (Someone more tough I'd assume.)

I hope we learn from Iraq...
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Flighty
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I hope we learn from Iraq...

But the Israel card has been played. Therefore, the correct answer from both parties will be, anyone who is not Christian or Jewish is a dangerous, crazy militant who is bent on mad plots.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:52 am

Yawn... another anti US thread from TheCommodore? Surprise.  
Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
with its unquestioning support for a Government/country that doesn't deserve it.

That's funny, last time I checked the US didn't support the Iranian government.
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TheCommodore
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I'm not so sure, she's pretty liberal.

I had big hopes, at least initially, but they have faded. Libya added to her woes of course, and now Syria is crumbling. With the US elections approaching, I feel that some countries can "push" there agenda, (what ever it may be) and they have a pretty good idea, that nothings going to happen.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
but can you imagine who Romney may put in?

That thought alone is enough to keep you up at night.

Has anyone been fingered out yet, as to who might take on the role of SS if Romney wins ?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 2):
anyone who is not Christian or Jewish is a dangerous, crazy militant who is bent on mad plots.

You may well have a point. I'm sure it wont take long for the theorists to take charge !

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 3):
That's funny, last time I checked the US didn't support the Iranian government.

They don't, so I'm not sure what you find funny. But then again I don't really care.

[Edited 2012-07-16 19:17:59]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 4):
Has anyone been fingered out yet, as to who might take on the role of SS if Romney wins ?

Idk, they still haven't even picked the VP nominee yet. My best guess is "not-the-person-Obama-put-in-as-secretary-of-state," very consistent with the rest of his views at the moment
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 4):
They don't, so I'm not sure what you find funny. But then again I don't really care.

Then why did you start a thread about it?
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mariner
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Isn't it about time this stopped, perhaps it will once H Clinton moves along, sometime soon I hope. It very clear she's not up to the job, never has. It was only offered to her to placate, and nothing more.

I think she's been an excellent Secretary of State. I strongly hoped that she would get the nod for President in the last election.

mariner
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Ps76
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:07 am

Hi!

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
"THE US will "use all elements of its power" to keep Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton declared after meeting top Israeli officials."

That sounds like a very exaggerated statement to me. I mean will the US really launch nuclear weapons against Iran because isn't that included in "all elements of it's power".

So if Israel favours military action will they want the US to lead this military action. I would expect so. I kinda get the feeling that Israel gets America to do it's dirty work but I wonder how long the American people will go along with that. I wonder too if Israel will survive or if they will once again find themselves in diaspora.

Like I said to my jewish friend "Things would be a lot easier if they had just made Israel in Wisconsin"!

Many thanks.

Pierre
 
TheCommodore
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I think she's been an excellent Secretary of State.

Well mariner,

I'd agree in as much as she hasn't ruffled to many feathers, so I suppose that something, but I was looking forward to somebody strong, who wouldn't just roll over, like I feel she has with certain countries within the ME, namely, failure to stop or even slow Israel's blatant land grab through complete lack of dialogue.

And lets not talk about Egypt..... where she said just days before Mubarak (whom she supported) was ousted, that "his Government was stable"
We all know where that ended don't we.

Asia seems to have been kinder to her. Obama wants to curtail China's influence (military at least) in the Pacific, and Clinton has largely carried this off, without too much argie bargie, although China is not happy, and nor are a lot of Australians who find we are probably better pursuing a "closer friendship" with China, rather than excluding them, after all, they are geographically located in the Pacific whether we like it or not and re therefor neighbors to some extent.

Pakistan is another fragile area. I haven't seen Clinton improver things here at all, in fact one could argue that relations are pretty abysmal between the two and will remain that way for sometime, again caused by fractious US foreign policy.

Hi Pierre

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 8):
I kinda get the feeling that Israel gets America to do it's dirty work but I wonder how long the American people will go along with that.

I wish it weren't the case, and you wouldn't be the first to come to that conclusion !

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 8):
I wonder too if Israel will survive or if they will once again find themselves in diaspora.

As long as the US continues to tolerate such actions, and double standards, things will remain the same I'm afraid.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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mariner
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:28 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
I'd agree in as much as she hasn't ruffled to many feathers, so I suppose that something, but I was looking forward to somebody strong, who wouldn't just roll over, like I feel she has with certain countries within the ME, namely, failure to stop or even slow Israel's blatant land grab through complete lack of dialogue.

I really don't know what you would have her do or say.

The Israel/Palestine issue has defeated some of the greatest political minds in the world, for decades, and for good reason. The genie was let out of the bottle in 1948 when the critical provision of the Balfour Declaration was abandoned.

You really think she can turn back decades of time?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
And lets not talk about Egypt..... where she said just days before Mubarak (whom she supported) was ousted, that "his Government was stable"
We all know where that ended don't we.

As it stands as the moment, almost as badly as I predicted it would in threads here. I may still prefer Mubarak to what we seem likely to get.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Asia seems to have been kinder to her. Obama wants to curtail China's influence (military at least) in the Pacific, and Clinton has largely carried this off, without too much argie bargie, although China is not happy, and nor are a lot of Australians who find we are probably better pursuing a "closer friendship" with China, rather than excluding them, after all, they are geographically located in the Pacific whether we like it or not and re therefor neighbors to some extent.

I guess we know different Australians. But again, what would her have you do? It is her job to extend and enhance America's interests. She's hardly likely to say "you're better off with China than with us."

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Pakistan is another fragile area. I haven't seen Clinton improver things here at all, in fact one could argue that relations are pretty abysmal between the two and will remain that way for sometime, again caused by fractious US foreign policy.

If you know the answer to Pakistan, you're a cleverer man than presently holds office in any western country. It does seem that no one involved in the creation of that mess read their history books.

I am startled that you seem determined to lay the many complex - and long standing - problems of the world at her door.

mariner
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TheCommodore
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 10):
I really don't know what you would have her do or say.

Well, perhaps at least look like she's organizing something between the two waring parties. I find the silence amazing.

Too me, it looks the the US administration has no policy at all, with regards to this problem. But yet, and I'm sure that many would agree, the US is "expert" at other foreign matters in the world.

Quoting mariner (Reply 10):
You really think she can turn back decades of time?

Not anymore. Not when, as I said earlier, it appears the US has no policy, and if they do, then apparently they are not prepared to enforce it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 10):
But again, what would her have you do?

Not have her exert influence over our Lilly lived Government into hosting a US military base in Darwin for starts. Too me, that would not look good in front of the Chinese, especially as (we are all being told our future lies in Asia). Hardly anyway to win over trust in my mind, but you may think differently about it.
Anyway as I said, the Asia situation generally has been kinder to her IMHO, that is.

Quoting mariner (Reply 10):
I am startled that you seem determined to lay the many complex - and long standing - problems of the world at her door.

Mariner, Am really not laying the worlds problems at her door, I'm just saying, I don't think she been very effective at dealing with many of them, or when she has, thinks about the consequences of the actions.

But hey.... nobody's perfect now are they.   
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:12 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Well, perhaps at least look like she's organizing something between the two waring parties. I find the silence amazing.

To what end? Netanyahu has made his (hardline) position very clear. He's the man who, not so very long ago, advocated the Jordanian option - move all the Palestinians out of the West Bank to Jordan.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Not anymore. Not when, as I said earlier, it appears the US has no policy, and if they do, then apparently they are not prepared to enforce it.

It takes two to tango. Things don't happen overnight or in headlines. Diplomacy is usually a very long game.

And she's not the President or the whole executive branch. She represents the consensus of the executive.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Not have her exert influence over our Lilly lived Government into hosting a US military base in Darwin for starts.

Why not? It is in America's interests. Whether it is in Australia's best interests (and I believe it is) is another matter.

If you don't like it and want to dump on someone, dump on the Australian government. It's the fashionable thing to do.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
I'm just saying, I don't think she been very effective at dealing with many of them, or when she has, thinks about the consequences of the actions.

I doubt there is anything she can do to please you.

mariner
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ozglobal
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Isn't it about time this stopped, perhaps it will once H Clinton moves along, sometime soon I hope.

What you have to understand is that you cannot hold power, an elected seat, in the US without one-sided, unconditional support for the state of Israel. The Israel lobby is perhaps more powerful than the health sector in 'owning'polititions. They permit NO questioning, NO oposition whatsoever to any Israeli policy, outrage or crime. Once elected or even during the campaign this become patently obvious. Afterwards, acquiesce is permanently assured. The just cave in, and fight battles on other fronts. The Israel lobby has the US by the throat.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:06 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Isn't it about time this stopped, perhaps it will once H Clinton moves along, sometime soon I hope. It very clear she's not up to the job, never has. It was only offered to her to placate, and nothing more.

Hillary Clinton will have to learn once and for all that she is not liked or even worshipped everywhere she goes.

I hope she got the lesson from her latest visit to Egypt.

"Hillary's motorcade pelted with tomatoes and shoes as Egyptian protesters shout 'Monica, Monica'"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...torcade-pelted-tomatoes-Egypt.html

Lets hope she never gets to be the first female president.

  
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TheCommodore
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:29 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
To what end? Netanyahu has made his (hardline) position very clear

mariner, you of all people should know, that lots of leaders have made their respective positions clear on lots of things in regards to the Israeli problem, that really doesn't mean diddly squat these days. What dose matter, is if the worlds most powerful nation, silently endorses Israeli actions, Sadly, it appears they do, and H Clinton is part of that. And that's why I feel she has not been such a good SS. If the will is there, and diplomacy happens (like you say it dose, in the long game) then there should be some movement is respect to this, but not much I'm afraid to say.

I realize that Clinton is not the one that makes policy, only explains it to the rest of the world, but its the way you do it that matters, and how you pull it off. In this regard, I feel she let the side down.

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
If you don't like it and want to dump on someone, dump on the Australian government. It's the fashionable thing to do.

I already did that .
 

[Edited 2012-07-17 03:31:20]
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mariner
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 15):
I realize that Clinton is not the one that makes policy, only explains it to the rest of the world, but its the way you do it that matters, and how you pull it off. In this regard, I feel she let the side down.

Then we disagree.

mariner
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connies4ever
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 8):

Like I said to my jewish friend "Things would be a lot easier if they had just made Israel in Wisconsin"!

Better yet carving it out of Germany and Silesia.
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Ps76
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:12 pm

Hi!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 14):
"Hillary's motorcade pelted with tomatoes and shoes as Egyptian protesters shout 'Monica, Monica'"

I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton but shouting "Monica Monica" at her is really a low blow. And the article doesn't mention the US doing any harm to Egypt except supporting their last president. What is quite clear is that the people want to create a facist Islamic republic with no religious tolerance at all and expel all minorities. That is something we thought we got rid of when Hitler was defeated. Maybe they should look at themselves for a change.

Many thanks.

Pierre
 
connies4ever
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:21 pm

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 8):
So if Israel favours military action will they want the US to lead this military action. I would expect so. I kinda get the feeling that Israel gets America to do it's dirty work but I wonder how long the American people will go along with that. I wonder too if Israel will survive or if they will once again find themselves in diaspora

Tend to agree. Israel alone can't stop the Iranian program, IMHO, so they enlist American support by whatever means.

It's not even clear to me that the US (with or without Israel) can stop it militarily. What many people don't know is that Iran has really made great strides in developing super-hard concrete - originally this was done as part of "earthquake-proofing" buildings and bridges, but it always had a military application. Normal concrete tends to have a compressive load limit around 12-13,000 psi, reinforced can go to 16-17,000 psi fairly easily. Iran is acknowledged to be a leader in superhard concrete technology, producing materials that can withstand 40,000+ psi load levels. That, combined with perhaps 100 ft of overburden, might render the "bunker-busters" useless.

Then what ? Nukes ? The US and/or Israel would have committed an act of war and achieved zilch.

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1816872/posts

From the US perspective, this may also be of interest:

http://www.princeton.edu/sgs/publications/sgs/pdf/2_2-3Michener.pdf
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MadameConcorde
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 18):
What is quite clear is that the people want to create a facist Islamic republic with no religious tolerance at all and expel all minorities.

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood have won by popular vote. They accessed power democratically. The majority of voters have made their choice. It's the people's right to choose how they want their country to be run and by whom - whether we like it or not.

I am sick of this constant Western interventionism having to tell others what to do and submit them to - even imposing - our own thinking and standard of living. Where is the freedom of choice and determination?

I'll say to them: Mind Your Own Business.

  
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mham001
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:08 pm

All this blather because of some settlements. Not that I agree with settlements, but amid all the blather here, I have heard not one word about the threat of Iran acquiring nukes.

The Commodore apparently believes the world is better off with Iranian nukes than Israeli settlements.
 
connies4ever
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood have won by popular vote. They accessed power democratically. The majority of voters have made their choice. It's the people's right to choose how they want their country to be run and by whom - whether we like it or not.

   Democracy is funny that way. We plead with so many countries to adopt democratic principles and have "free and fair" elections, and when the results are not necessarily to our liking, we complain. Well, grow up. The process is what we asked for, the results are the people's choice.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
I am sick of this constant Western interventionism having to tell others what to do and submit them to - even imposing - our own thinking and standard of living.

One of the principal reasons there are so many problems in the area. Not to deny many internal issues, but our constant intervention or threats to do so don't help.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
The Commodore apparently believes the world is better off with Iranian nukes than Israeli settlements.

The world would be better off if there were NO nuclear weapons and NO Israeli settlements, but neither is likely to happen.

I will repeat what I stated earlier in a Non-Av thread: Iran has a sovereign right to develop nuclear weapons, if that is their choice. Would the world be better off ? Likely not. At a minimum, the power equation in the ME would change. Does having them mean using them ? Not necessarily. Deterrence means, to paraphrase Harry Truman, "walking softly but carrying a big stick".

Mr. A is not the boss in Iran, and he will be shuffling off the stage pretty soon in any event. The Supreme Council led by Khamenei are in charge and, once again IMHO, do not wish to see 4,000 years of culture destroyed in a flash.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):
The world would be better off if there were NO nuclear weapons and NO Israeli settlements, but neither is likely to happen.

all true

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):
Iran has a sovereign right to develop nuclear weapons, if that is their choice.

absolutely and it's none of our business to go tell them not to do it - we should really mind our own business at home

and now this?

US Navy ship fires on boat off Dubai, killing 1
http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...ip_fires_on_boat_off_dubai_1_dead/

Breaking News: "US Navy Fires On Fishermen 'Without Warning'"
http://news.sky.com/story/961385/us-...fires-on-fishermen-without-warning

It seems in the last few months and weeks the US Navy have been itching to start a war, tensions seem to be rising in the Middle East region.


 
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Dreadnought
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood have won by popular vote. They accessed power democratically. The majority of voters have made their choice. It's the people's right to choose how they want their country to be run and by whom - whether we like it or not.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):
Democracy is funny that way. We plead with so many countries to adopt democratic principles and have "free and fair" elections, and when the results are not necessarily to our liking, we complain. Well, grow up. The process is what we asked for, the results are the people's choice.

This is of course true. However it goes both ways. If these democratically elected governments decide to make good on their campaign threats to do away with Israel, and Israel knocks them back hard (including civilian casualties), then the civilian population has no cause to complain.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
connies4ever
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
However it goes both ways

The same would be true of American threats against Iran. Iran has never overtly attacked (as far as can be discerned by these eyes) America, yet various American governments have several times interfered in Iranian internal affairs and now implicitly threaten direct military action.
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Aesma
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
All this blather because of some settlements. Not that I agree with settlements, but amid all the blather here, I have heard not one word about the threat of Iran acquiring nukes.

The Commodore apparently believes the world is better off with Iranian nukes than Israeli settlements.

Well, very stable and democratic countries like Pakistan and North Korea have nukes and somehow the world hasn't come to an end.

Iran's rhetoric is empty, and if they had nukes, it would be even emptier, since they'd have no "divine" reason not to attack, but still wouldn't.
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mham001
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 26):
Well, very stable and democratic countries like Pakistan and North Korea have nukes and somehow the world hasn't come to an end.

I'm having a hard time taking anything seriously from someone who claims North Korea is a "stable democracy". And Pakistan is "stable"?
 
mham001
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:23 pm

Question is...are the excusers for Iran ready to let anybody have nuclear weapons? Saudi Arabia? Nigeria? Where exactly is your line in the sand?
 
ozglobal
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 27):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 26):
Well, very stable and democratic countries like Pakistan and North Korea have nukes and somehow the world hasn't come to an end.

I'm having a hard time taking anything seriously from someone who claims North Korea is a "stable democracy". And Pakistan is "stable"?

Irony.

Perhaps a less known literary device in the US?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
WestJet747
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:28 pm

I wasn't going to engage this thread, but...

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 23):
Breaking News: "US Navy Fires On Fishermen 'Without Warning'"

If an unknown boat is heading your way and not responding to calls, it should be assumed it's a threat. I'm not sure what possessed these individuals to get so close to a warship anyway. I'd want to steer far clear of any heavily armed vessel.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
Saudi Arabia?

You find Saudi Arabia to be a threatening military force?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 27):
I'm having a hard time taking anything seriously from someone who claims North Korea is a "stable democracy". And Pakistan is "stable"?

I think he was being sarcastic...
Flying refined.
 
connies4ever
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 27):
I'm having a hard time taking anything seriously from someone who claims North Korea is a "stable democracy". And Pakistan is "stable"?
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 29):
Irony.

Perhaps a less known literary device in the US?

Quite.   

As a historical perspective, though, it may interest you to know that what is now known as Fail Safe, or PAL (Permissive Action Link), was developed to prevent an individual to initiate a nuclear war without political authorisation. The individual most specifically (but not entirely) in question for which all this activity was ordained was Gen. Thomas Power, USAF, a protoge of Curtis LeMay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_S._Power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_Action_Link

So, in essence, in a "stable democracy" like the USA, until late 50s/early 60s, one single person could have started a chain reaction that would incinerate the world. He was savagely parodied in "Dr Strangelove".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Str...to_Stop_Worrying_and_Love_the_Bomb

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 30):
You find Saudi Arabia to be a threatening military force?

Only to its' own citizens.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11175
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 31):
PAL (Permissive Action Link), was developed to prevent an individual to initiate a nuclear war without political authorisation.

SAC didn't like it so the codes were set to all zeros.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Ps76
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:10 pm

Hi!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood have won by popular vote. They accessed power democratically.

Didn't Hitler also come into power democratically? Fascism whether voted in democratically or not is wrong. I'm tired of these hypocrites. When they come to the West they preach about multicultarance and acceptance yet in their own lands they oppress and exterminate all minorities. My people are christians and have been in Iraq and the middle east since Biblical times yet we are oppressed and murdered daily simply for being christian and not converting. What kind of ignorant shit is that. Do we like to see our churches destroyed? No. Do we like our homelands taken over? No. Do I like to listen to all my relatives talk about how they would love to see their old homeland where they grew up and have lived as a people for thousands of years knowing that that will probably never happen and that their villages will soon have muslim names and churches will become mosques. Hell no. We look at the Palestinians and the Aboriginies and the Native American's etc. and say "how do they have it so good". And does anyone help us or even talk about our issue on mainstream media. Hell no. We thought Obama would help because he was black and from a minority but even he couldn't give a shit.

They may be democratic but that doesn't mean they have any respect for human rights. Maybe they could work on that next though I seriously doubt that will happen.

Pierre
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 23):
US Navy ship fires on boat off Dubai, killing 1
http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...ip_fires_on_boat_off_dubai_1_dead/

Breaking News: "US Navy Fires On Fishermen 'Without Warning'"
http://news.sky.com/story/961385/us-...fires-on-fishermen-without-warning

It seems in the last few months and weeks the US Navy have been itching to start a war, tensions seem to be rising in the Middle East region.

I don't know the details, but being in the Navy myself, I know that no sane CO would risk something like this without good reason... a minor mistake can mean the end of a CO's and XO's career. Unless the CO has been told to try and spark a war by the upper echelons of the US government, but I don't get into that conspiracy BS. Just look at the USS Cole bombing to see why unknown boats failing to heed warnings get shot at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing

That being said, it should get investigated for any wrongdoing. And I'm all for minding our own business too btw
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
It's the people's right to choose how they want their country to be run and by whom - whether we like it or not.

We have a winner !

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
I am sick of this constant Western interventionism having to tell others what to do and submit them to - even imposing - our own thinking and standard of living. Where is the freedom of choice and determination?

I'll say to them: Mind Your Own Business.

Madame, you are so right !

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
All this blather because of some settlements.

Yeah, why worry about settlements or providing/allowing the Palestinians homes/land.   

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
Not that I agree with settlements,

Oh, but you certainly don't disagree with then either, appearing to "just" let Israel build where it wants too.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
The Commodore apparently believes the world is better off with Iranian nukes than Israeli settlements.

Tell me mham001. up until this point in time, how many people have been killed or even threatened to be killed over Iran's Nuke programme, compared to Israels heavy handed tactics/clashes regarding Settlements ? along the west bank

I'm sure a lot of people here will be interested in your answer

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):
The world would be better off if there were NO nuclear weapons

Well, apparently not, because Israel thinks it is safer to have Nukes, that's why they secretly developed them, right under our noses.... But that's ok isn't it, because its Israel.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
This is of course true. However it goes both ways. If these democratically elected governments decide to make good on their campaign threats to do away with Israel, and Israel knocks them back hard (including civilian casualties), then the civilian population has no cause to complain.

Right, but at least let these countries sort it out between them. the west can keep well out of it.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 25):
The same would be true of American threats against Iran.

Yes, history has a way of repeating itself, over and over again.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
Question is

If its ok and acceptable for Israel to posses Nukes, then why not for other countries ??????????????
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
connies4ever
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
SAC didn't like it so the codes were set to all zeros.

Initially yes but not the case now. Thankfully. It's a whole lot more than your grandmother's PAL.

W
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
Well, apparently not, because Israel thinks it is safer to have Nukes, that's why they secretly developed them, right under our noses.... But that's ok isn't it, because its Israel.

Actually, I think Israel would be better off in the long run w/o nukes, as this would force them to deal realistically with the various factions in the region. As opposed to the asymmetric war going on right now.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:50 am

Israel needs to take a deep hard look at themselves...
They are crumbling within as there is social unrest and their human rights record is abysmal

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Just more empty rhetoric and pandering to the Israelis.

You know she blatantly said she goes to AIPAC for "advice"....the American people need to wake up
Our Returning Champion
 
kaitak
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:26 pm

You think HC is bad (and I for one do not - I'm very much with Mariner on this), what happens if Romney is elected? Imagine John Bolton as Secretary of State; this guy will make even Netanyahu seem balanced and liberal.

I think you will find that the current administration is taking a far more intelligent, reasoned view of the Middle East than the Republicans ever did - or are ever likely to do. The current mess - Iraq in particular, is all the Republicans' mess; a Democrat would never have invaded, not because of weakness, but because of understanding. You get another neocon in and the Middle Eastern situation will be made immeasurably worse. Things have changed a huge amount in the Middle East and with the current situation in Syria, they are going to change a great deal more, even by November. The likelihood is that Assad will be out by then and Iran will be politically isolated and, with the current sanctions, economically far weaker. There will come a time when these sanctions will have cause social unrest, possibly even revolution.

The changing situation in the M/E requires more brain than brawn and of course, with an election in Israel now very likely, the possibility exists that there maybe someone less hawklike in the government, which might give peace with the Palestinians a chance. I suggest that America's interests are far more likely to be served by Clinton than by any neocon likely to be appointed by Romney.
 
NW747400
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:44 pm

Ok TheCommodore, we get it you are not the biggest fan of the U.S. and particularly our foreign policy and that is ok.
I do find it ironic, however, that you constantly espouse minding your own business yet you seem to have no problem meddling in the business of the U.S. (a country in which, your flag suggests, you do not live). I would like to know why you think we should mind our own business while you feel free to stick your nose in our business (and please don't give me some 3rd grade "the U.S. does is so it's ok for me to do it" answer). If you are so convinced others should mind their own business why don't you head your own advice? Or is this a case of do as I say not as I do?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
Tell me mham001. up until this point in time, how many people have been killed or even threatened to be killed over Iran's Nuke programme, compared to Israels heavy handed tactics/clashes regarding Settlements ? along the west bank

That is incorrect. A quick internet search would reveal that Iran has expressed a desire to wipe Israel off the map. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...e/2006/08/03/AR2006080300629.html.
As far as I know Israel has never threatened to wipe a single country from the earth. So there's one reason that we don't want Iran to have nukes. I don't see how any reasonable person could think that it is a good idea for a country with such aspirations to develop nuclear weapons.
NW747400
 
Hywel
Posts: 703
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 39):
That is incorrect. A quick internet search would reveal that Iran has expressed a desire to wipe Israel off the map

That's one of the most misquoted rhetorics about Iran - rather funny that people still believe it. It was a translation error and even a senior Israeli Minister has corrected it:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...-israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map/
 
Hywel
Posts: 703
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:51 pm

RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 39):
I don't see how any reasonable person could think that it is a good idea for a country with such aspirations to develop nuclear weapons.

What about Israel then? Why should they be allowed to have nukes?
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 39):
desire to wipe Israel off the map.

You should read more about this topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud...22Wiped_off_the_map.22_controversy

"wipe off the map" is not even an idiom in his language...

The Iranian government is full of nuts but I think we'd just be making the situation worse, as we have in the past, by intervening
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Hywel
Posts: 703
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:21 pm

Anyone wanting to know about the effects of the last US intervention (or rather overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government) should read this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

The tangible benefits the United States reaped from overthrowing Iran's elected government included a share of Iran's oil wealth, as well as resolute prevention of the slim possibility that the Iranian government might align itself with the Soviet Union, although the latter motivation produces controversy among historians. Washington continually supplied arms to the unpopular Shah, and the CIA-trained SAVAK, his repressive secret police force.

The coup is widely believed to have significantly contributed to anti-American sentiment in Iran and the Middle East. The 1979 Iranian Revolution deposed the Shah and replaced the pro-Western royal dictatorship with the largely anti-Western Islamic Republic of Iran

[Edited 2012-07-19 14:22:52]
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 38):
You think HC is bad

Not so much bad, but ineffective is probably more the point.

I mean, please tell me what you think her accomplishments have been as Sec of state ?

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 39):
I do find it ironic, however, that you constantly espouse minding your own business yet you seem to have no problem meddling in the business of the U.S. (a country in which, your flag suggests, you do not live).

Its not ironic at all NW747400.
This is a public forum in case you hadn't noticed. It is where, providing you are a member of this site, one has the right to discuss topics that are currently in the press and making news.

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 39):
I would like to know why you think we should mind our own business while you feel free to stick your nose in our business (and please don't give me some 3rd grade "the U.S. does is so it's ok for me to do it" answer).

I will try and explain it to you then, as you seem to have absolutely no idea.

In case you are not aware, the US is currently the world largest superpower, with quite a bit of clout, especially when it comes to foreign policy matters and influencing other world powers and how they perceive things "should be in the world"

Unfortunately, this means for you and your country, that you are, and will be open to criticism. both at home and internationally...

You are right, in many respects. I am not a fan of US foreign policy regarding the ME and such, I think generally the US have made a mess of it, through hypocrisy and double standards. Supporting some countries over others, turning a blind eye when it suits, etc etc etc.......

I'm sorry if you don't like it.

You have made your point that you feel the US is beyond such criticism or scrutiny. But whether you like it or not, it will continue, you see that's free speech, something I thought, the US was so vehemently proud about, evidently not !

Ever heard of the saying, "if you can stand the heat then get out of the kitchen" If you haven't, then maybe you should ?

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 39):
That is incorrect.

Go look a little deeper into the exact quote, I think you will find it differs greatly, than your take on it !

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 39):
As far as I know Israel has never threatened to wipe a single country from the earth.
NW747400

This has nothing to do with what I said to mham00.
I have no idea what your talking about. I suggest you go back a reread what is was that I did say, and then I will respond.

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 39):
So there's one reason that we don't want Iran to have nukes. I don't see how any reasonable person could think that it is a good idea for a country with such aspirations to develop nuclear weapons.
NW747400

My point is that Iran has never as you say threatened to do what you claim.So, if its ok for Israel to have nukes then why not Iran ?

As you seem to be well versed on this topic, please tell me this, as mham001 can't or wont. So you have a go please.

Quote from earlier question below..

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
Tell me mham001. up until this point in time, how many people have been killed or even threatened to be killed over Iran's Nuke programme, compared to Israels heavy handed tactics/clashes regarding Settlements ? along the west bank
Quoting Hywel (Reply 40):
That's one of the most misquoted rhetorics about Iran - rather funny that people still believe it. It was a translation error and even a senior Israeli Minister has corrected it:

I know. It so tiring that some here just can't or wont accept that's its a load of BS, but they still continue to to quote a misquote.... Yawn

But lets see what NW747400 comes back with this ????

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
You should read more about this topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud...22Wiped_off_the_map.22_controversy

"wipe off the map" is not even an idiom in his language...

The Iranian government is full of nuts but I think we'd just be making the situation worse, as we have in the past, by intervening

DeltaMD90. Why do you think it is that so many carry on with this line. Are some people this dumb ?

Quoting Hywel (Reply 43):
The coup is widely believed to have significantly contributed to anti-American sentiment in Iran and the Middle East. The 1979 Iranian Revolution deposed the Shah and replaced the pro-Western royal dictatorship with the largely anti-Western Islamic Republic of Iran

Well that's another can of worms....
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
You should read more about this topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud...22Wiped_off_the_map.22_controversy

"wipe off the map" is not even an idiom in his language...

The Iranian government is full of nuts but I think we'd just be making the situation worse, as we have in the past, by intervening

DeltaMD90. Why do you think it is that so many carry on with this line. Are some people this dumb ?

To be fair, I had to do a lot of independent digging. Many people watch the news frequently but the US media (and even Western media in general) is very biased.

I think the biggest issue, honestly, is picking one side or another. I hear people saying "are you pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian?" I am both and I don't think that's an outrageous concept. I think both sides share some fault and I can see reasonable solutions that would make both sides reasonably happy.

Unfortunately, it's often that you are FOR ISRAEL or AGAINST ISRAEL. In many parts of the world you are pro-liberation (for the Palestinians) or you're a Zionist.

I think the best answer lies in the middle of the road, just like 99% of issues in the world
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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mariner
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
I mean, please tell me what you think her accomplishments have been as Sec of state ?

If you;re going to attribute everything that happens in the world to one person, then I'd put the relaxations in Mynamar in Mrs. Clinton's column - it has happened on her watch.- and count it a considerable success.

But of course, it isn't just one person - diplomacy seldom is. It is usually a culmination of years of work.

Or not - as the case may be. You'd think the British Foreign Office advisers to Tony Blair would have strongly counseled him against invading Iraq, given the woeful history of that country and Britain's involvement in that history. But the British government - it wasn't just Blair - chose to ignore Britain's past, and Iraq's.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
I think the best answer lies in the middle of the road, just like 99% of issues in the world

I agree with you there. Generally speaking, most issues could be handled better, but we as human beings, have an uncanny knack of only realizing this, after much of the damage is already done, and years have passed us by

I suppose that's human nature for you !

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
If you;re going to attribute everything that happens in the world to one person,

Mariner, I don't think Ive' ever said all the worlds problems (especially ME problems) lay at H Clintons feet, but please correct me if I'm mistaken there.

It just that I feel, that as the worlds leading power, and a heavy weight when it comes to influencing all other nations, that at least for the time being anyway, America is not seen as being even handed. Its unfortunate, that H Clinton, has to be the one who deliverers these "mixed" message but that's the way it is. as S of S, she has some degree of forming policy and I just think it hasn't been throughout very well, when it comes to the way the messages have to be delivered.

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
But of course, it isn't just one person - diplomacy seldom is. It is usually a culmination of years of work.

Yes, of course, and your right, its never just down to one person.

But my concern with H Clintion is, that I don't think she has been particularly forceful enough with those, that perhaps she should be forceful with, and this sends and reinforces those mixed message I was talking about. Perhaps its other persons faults, eg purley policy makers, with the the US administration, and her hands are tied, maybe I'm just missing something.

We have a similar problem here in Australia with our foreign policy, especially in regards to the Pacific Island nations such as Fiji and PNG, and also lets not forget the current situation with Indonesia and the influx of boat arrivals. Our policy is nothing more than a shambles IMHO when it comes to this.

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
But the British government - it wasn't just Blair - chose to ignore Britain's past, and Iraq's.

And your correct again, but that's perhaps for another thread.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 3):
That's funny, last time I checked the US didn't support the Iranian government.

I think he was referring to Israel.


The last time I checked, the U.S. had more important things to worry about like getting our economy going, not f***ing it up with yet another war. Where are we going to get another $2-3 trillion for a war? China so we can fall deeper in debt?
 
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mariner
Posts: 18415
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RE: US 'power' Will Stop Iranian Nukes

Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
It just that I feel, that as the worlds leading power, and a heavy weight when it comes to influencing all other nations, that at least for the time being anyway, America is not seen as being even handed.

Why should America - or any nation - be "even handed."? In terms of diplomacy, I don't even know what that means.

Why not dump on the Russians for not being "even-handed" about Syria? Or China, for not being "even-handed" about North Korea, thus helping to let its people starve.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
We have a similar problem here in Australia with our foreign policy, especially in regards to the Pacific Island nations such as Fiji and PNG, and also lets not forget the current situation with Indonesia and the influx of boat arrivals. Our policy is nothing more than a shambles IMHO when it comes to this.

I don't see it as a shambles at all. Like the Israel/Palestine conflict, I see it as a Gordion Knot, which the minority government cannot cut until one of the other parties is prepared to be reasonable.

Either the Coalition has to give at least an inch from its "our way or the highway" position (thus avoiding more deaths at sea) or the Greens have to give at least an inch from their "our way or the highway" position (thus avoiding more deaths at sea).

If you're going to dump on anyone, dump on the Australian electorate for not giving power to one party or the other and now having to live with the consequences of that non-decision.

But that is certainly a subject for another thread, and one in which I would not participate.

mariner
aeternum nauta

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