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stasisLAX
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General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:03 am

General Motors seems to be signalling auto industry analysts that it plans to close the Opel and Vauxhall brands after several financial quarters of massive losses, plant closures, and poor sales in a very poor European economy. Opel's fourth CEO in three years was suddenly replaced by executives at GM headquarters last week, as General Motors management in Detroit panicked in the realization that the flood of red ink in GM's European operations threatens to take the entire corporation back into bankruptcy. "GM must not have been satisfied with the (European) business plan," one auto analysts remarked "This kind of message is catastrophic."

Two weeks ago, the Opel supervisory board approved a recovery business plan, which runs through 2016, in a step toward returning GM Europe to profitability. But real savings in a restructuring will not come until GM negotiates a new agreeement with labor unions to close the Bochum, Germany plant - after 2016.

"We've lost $14 billion in the last 12 years. It's got to stop," GM Worldwide CEO Akerson said of GM Europe last month. "We're looking at some sort of agreement with our unions that would allow us to consolidate." In June, Akerson said it could be 2 years before GM was profitable in Europe again.

Auto analysts said the move showed the U.S. automaker's growing intolerance for the losses in Europe. If GM sell or mothballs its Opel/Vauxhall operations, would GM Holden be next? The Oz market is very small in comparison with Asia or North America - and Holden has been dependent on engineering support from Opel for years. Could Opel, Holden, and Vauxhall brands all be replaced by a resurgent global Chevrolet brand, as many auto analysts have predicted??

Source: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...a-step-away-from-giving-up-on-opel

[Edited 2012-07-16 20:05:55]
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mham001
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
If GM sell or mothballs its Opel/Vauxhall operations, would GM Holden be next? The Oz market is very small in comparison with Asia or North America - and Holden has been dependent on engineering support from Opel for years. Could Opel, Holden, and Vauxhall brands all be replaced by a resurgent global Chevrolet brand, as many auto analysts have predicted??

They probably have enough hot engines and parts stashed away to keep building cars for awhile after GM left.
 
Ps76
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:22 am

Hi!

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Could Opel, Holden, and Vauxhall brands all be replaced by a resurgent global Chevrolet brand

Speaking only from the UK the Vauxhall brand is still a far far better seller than Chevrolet. Don't get me wrong though my family owns a Chevrolet. It was very economical to buy, it's reliable (touch wood), we love it! But you just don't see many Chevrolets around and you still see a ton of Vauxhalls. Personally I have always thought it was because people for some reason percieve Vauxhall (and Ford) to be somehow quite "British" cars whereas the brand name Chevrolet is no mistaking it's USA thorough and through!

I may be completely crazy with that last statement though!

Many thanks.

Pierre
 
JJJ
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:06 am

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 2):
the brand name Chevrolet is no mistaking it's USA thorough and through!

GM did a huge mistake in just slapping the chevy badge on some poorly made daewoo models.

Despite the American heritage, Chevrolet mostly means "cheapo Korean" in Europe, and despite enormous marketing efforts (they're sponsoring the Spanish football team, for example), their market quota is extremely small except for some Eastern European countries like Russia.

Chevy sells less cars in Spain than Opel sells Astras (not to mention corsas).
 
flipdewaf
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 2):
I may be completely crazy with that last statement though!

I know where you are coming from, they don't tend to sell any of their big brash models that I kind of associate with the US market.

Fred
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vc10
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:25 am

The problem with Chevrolet cars , well in the UK at least , is that although they are quite cheap to buy new , for their size they are expensive to run due to their high emissions and poor MPG when you compare them to their competition.

In the UK again Vauxhall had two of their models in the top 10 sales list, but that does not mean they are making a profit on their sales.

PS76 ----I agree that the Vauxhall brand name is perceived as being British and so helps with sales. Even GM must have realized this as GM Europe models throughout the world are sold under the name Opel except in the UK where they are sold as Vauxhall
 
JJJ
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 5):
they don't tend to sell any of their big brash models that I kind of associate with the US market

At least they're offering the Camaro now (and in Chevy dealers, not like the Corvette that is sold on Cadillac dealers).

Not that they're selling any, but look good on the dealer floor.
 
racko
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:59 am

I've said it before:

They might as well just pull out of the German market altogether. The Opel brand is damaged, yes, but nothing like the comically horrible brand that is Chevrolet. It is considered literally the worst car brand there is. That's not hyperbole: Here is the brand strength index published by the ADAC. If you're looking for Chevrolet, start looking at the bottom.

And that's before murdering Opel if your scenario plays out.
 
na
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:08 pm

GM is, like Ford a desaster. Imperialistic policy, only interested in money, not in building truly competitive cars, destroying all brands.
 
vc10
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:19 pm

Here are the figures for the UK in 2011and you can see that here Vauxhall are second in the market after Ford, but both of them have suffered a reduction in their share of the market. The three German makers are then 3rd 4th and 5th with their share increasing. For me the eye opener was the decline in the share of the market that the French car makers have suffered

http://www.best-selling-cars.com/bri...and-marques-in-the-united-kingdom/
 
Ps76
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:57 pm

Hi!

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
For me the eye opener was the decline in the share of the market that the French car makers have suffered

I wonder why that is. Their cars don't seem to have changed substantially or their business models. For Renault it's kinda ironic seeing that from what little I know I think they started hiring British designers to make the exterior looks of their vehicles yet suffered a loss in the British market. I'm not sure if that is true though.

Many thanks.

Pierre
 
mham001
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting na (Reply 8):
like Ford a desaster. Imperialistic policy, only interested in money, not in building truly competitive cars, destroying all brands.

Ford doesn't make competitive cars? Last I looked, they make 2 of the top 3 best selling cars in Britain.

[Edited 2012-07-17 07:29:56]
 
JJJ
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
Last I looked, they have the best selling car in (either) Europe of Britain - by far.

The best selling car in Europe is the VW Golf.

In any case, lumping Ford with GM is a huge mistake. Ford know how and when to adapt to different tastes, markets and trends. The new 3-cyl 1.0 ecoboost is a winner.
 
na
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
Ford doesn't make competitive cars? Last I looked, they make 2 of the top 3 best selling cars in Britain.

Ok, Ford is not as bad as GM, granted. I was a bit unjust to throw them in the same sentence as GM.
But Ford has also been exploiting brands like GM does and wonders why it doesnt work.
Ford builds good everyday transports, their cars are ordinary bread-and-butter, but they dont have much sense for the finer things.
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
The three German makers are then 3rd 4th and 5th with their share increasing. For me the eye opener was the decline in the share of the market that the

Cross counting, the VW group has about 377000 cars sold in the UK (VW, Audi, SEAT, SKODA and Porsche) clearl the market leader.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
GM is, like Ford a desaster. Imperialistic

if there's one imperium in global car manufacturing, it the empire created by the Piech / Porsche families under the VW umbrella.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
Ford doesn't make competitive cars?

Ford , indeed, is lenghts better than Opel. They are not on level with the VW group, but far ahead of Opel by all means. If I had only the choice between Opel and Ford, I'd clearly go for Ford.


Opel is a desaster by all means, the workers council runs the place instead of the management, backed by politicians of almost all colors, insisting on decisions that make no business sense. A 3,some billion government loan was luckily prevented by the FDP liberal party. Us taxpayers would have never seen the money back.

Instead of shaping up the company by downsizing the number of employees they give job guarantees. A job guarantee is like writing a bad check. How can a company give a job guarantee when the company does not have a sales guarantee? Opel sold 15% less in the first half year, how can you maintain the workforce by selling less cars?

Of course, GM is at fault in many ways. They sell Korean junk cars under the name of Chevrolet on Opels home turf but do not allow Opel to sell in Asia. Why Korean cars in first place when you have under employed factories in Europe? That metal could be assembled as well in Eisenach/Germany or the Polish factory or both. Or Bochum as well.
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na
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
if there's one imperium in global car manufacturing, it the empire created by the Piech / Porsche families under the VW umbrella.

Well, thats a business empire that works because their credo is as much about quality as about money. And their workers are payed better than almost anywhere else in the motor industry.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Of course, GM is at fault in many ways. They sell Korean junk cars under the name of Chevrolet on Opels home turf but do not allow Opel to sell in Asia. Why Korean cars in first place when you have under employed factories in Europe? That metal could be assembled as well in Eisenach/Germany or the Polish factory or both. Or Bochum as well.

I dont know anyone who would buy such cars, and I dont understand such people (I´d rather get a three year old Golf than that Korean-Chevy crap). But some people do buy them, and they´ll likely not pay the price which would be asked for when built here.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Opel is a desaster by all means, the workers council runs the place instead of the management, backed by politicians of almost all colors, insisting on decisions that make no business sense. A 3,some billion government loan was luckily prevented by the FDP liberal party. Us taxpayers would have never seen the money back.

Thank god that was avoided. Typically politician crap: they would rather throw billions into a single big company to help saving 30.000 jobs rather than saving 100.000 in a hundred smaller companies.
 
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Aesma
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
a resurgent global Chevrolet brand

So, is Chevrolet making money in Europe ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
if there's one imperium in global car manufacturing, it the empire created by the Piech / Porsche families under the VW umbrella.

I'd be interested in knowing what stake the Porsche Piech families now have in VW, or did they just get richer selling their Porsche shares to VW.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):

Ford doesn't make competitive cars? Last I looked, they make 2 of the top 3 best selling cars in Britain.

And isn't the Ford Transit the most popular van sold in the UK as well?
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
I'd be interested in knowing what stake the Porsche Piech families now have in VW, or did they just get richer selling their Porsche shares to VW.

Since PLC are open books that should be visible on the net. At least when you know under whoich companies they have their holdings. May be even under their real names, . In any case, they have enough shares to be able to control the empire.
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racko
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:38 pm

Ford and GM are day and night when it comes to management. Absolutely unfair to group these two together.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Opel is a desaster by all means, the workers council runs the place instead of the management, backed by politicians of almost all colors, insisting on decisions that make no business sense.

If you could see past your political convictions you would see that this is utter bullshit. The core problems that got Opel in the first place were created by the management, not by the workforce! In fact their worker's council were ringing the alarm bells as early as 1990, but GM, blinded by temporary profits, ran the company straight into wall. If Opel had been run by their worker's council, as you claim, they wouldn't be in this mess by now. The workforce saw the quality drop and all innovation cease - but to stop that trend would have cost money, and would have looked bad in the next quarterly result.

VW faced the same quality issues Opel faced (caused by the same people, as VW, jealously looking at Opel's short-term profits, just hired them) - but at least they didn't stop investing in R&D and design, because Piech is probably the ultimate "car guy". They saw in time that the quality was a huge problem, and corrected it.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
I'd be interested in knowing what stake the Porsche Piech families now have in VW, or did they just get richer selling their Porsche shares to VW.

>50%.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
So, is Chevrolet making money in Europe ?

lol
 
petertenthije
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
They saw in time that the quality was a huge problem, and corrected it.

I am not too sure that VW where in time. Their TSI engines are having plenty of issues. In particular with the timing belt.
Attamottamotta!
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
For me the eye opener was the decline in the share of the market that the French car makers have suffered

Which may be why GM is now in a partnership with PSA!!   
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ltbewr
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:05 am

I doubt any of these 3 brands will disappear soon. There are too many marketing issues, old historical issues, politics, dealer issues and so on that will force them to keep the brands as well all of their remaining ones for the foreseeable future. GM has ditched in recent years Saturn, Pontiac and Oldsmobile in NA, losing customers, dealerships and their employees to Toyota, Nissan and Honda as well as Ford.
But for some high performance cars such as BMW, M-B, Audi, there is no great advantage of making cars in western Europe but to keep politicians and unions happy.
 
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Aesma
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:16 am

I disagree, especially for the German brands you mention, the "made in Germany" sticker is essential.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
I disagree, especially for the German brands you mention, the "made in Germany" sticker is essential.

Yup you should see how pissed US buyers are when they discover that their new 3 series comes with a made in South Africa sticker instead of made in Germany. There's loads of posts about this in a BMW forum I frequent.
 
JJJ
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:45 am

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 21):
Their TSI engines are having plenty of issues.

IIRC it was just the 1.4 in the 160/170/180hp version. The 120-140s were ok.

Still, Fiat had no problem with their 1.4Tb (up to 170 with multiair)
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:06 am

Quoting racko (Reply 20):

VW faced the same quality issues Opel faced (caused by the same people, as VW, jealously looking at Opel's short-term profits, just hired them) - but at least they didn't stop investing in R&D and design, because Piech is probably the ultimate "car guy". They saw in time that the quality was a huge problem, and corrected it.

Ignacio Lopez is long time history, VW has corrected what he did and certainly kept the good ideas and Opel had the chances as well, they just did not do it,

Now, basic business knowledge has nothing to do with politics, usually, polititicians have little knowledge how to run a business because those who do do not get into politics. I said earlier that Bruederle/FDP , one of the few in politics who has that business understanding, prevented that Opel got that 3,5 billion loan. Well done.

Now, flogging a dead horse might be political opportune because it may yield some votes but it does not help the company. If a company sells 15 % less cars, the company must reduce the costs. That is inevitable and should be a no brainer. Again, that has nothing to do with politics.

The other option is to increase sales, but that seems to be difficult since the volume / low quality car makers - and that is the niche Opel is in, is crowded by firms that make that kind of cars at much lower costs.

Opel was a quality manufacturer up until the 70s/early 80s. I think it is impossible ever to catch up with VW etc, they've done it, they have platforms (Lopez' idea IIRC) they use across the 12 brands they have, they are efficient, Opel does not have all that and they are kept on the short leash by GM

As to the workers council, the previous head really run the place and he did not do the cause a favor. No company will survive that does not have its costs under control and cannot adjust costs to market situation.

Simply business basics.

Trumpeting over the media that the closure of the Bochum plant will be the "most expensive closure Europe has ever seen" is simple BS. If I would sit in the GM board I'd say we sell these guys to the Chinese and let them handle that.
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Kiwirob
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:14 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
If I would sit in the GM board I'd say we sell these guys to the Chinese and let them handle that.

Do you really think the German govt would allow GM to sell Opel to the Chinese? It would be fun seeing them try, however I bet they would end up owned by good taxpayers of Germany.
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 28):
Do you really think the German govt would allow GM to sell Opel to the Chinese? It would be fun seeing them try, however I bet they would end up owned by good taxpayers of Germany.

The government can issue a friendly wish but they have nothing to say if that takes place. There is no law preventing the sale of a company to an overseas buyer. Happens daily. Germany is a democracy and ruled by the law, not by the government.
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JJJ
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:38 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
The other option is to increase sales, but that seems to be difficult since the volume / low quality car makers - and that is the niche Opel is in, is crowded by firms that make that kind of cars at much lower costs.

VW seemingly has had no problem doing precisely that. They acquired lower-cost partners in Seat and Skoda to better spread out the costs of innovation and have done very well.

Renault and PSA have weathered the changes much better than Opel because they were free to do things Opel weren't allowed to: expand worldwide, sign partnerships with other brands, etc. Even Fiat has bounced back.

Obviously, those are things a stand alone Opel could not do, and the myopic GM ownership cost Opel their image.
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:47 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 30):
Obviously, those are things a stand alone Opel could not do, and the myopic GM ownership cost Opel their image.

GM owns Opel since decades, they owned Opel when it bwas an innovative company. No one denies that GM has made a lot of mistakes and the 14 billion US$ lost in the past years are miuch to the account of Detroit.

But a stand-alone Opel now, especially if owned by the Government (which is completely ruled out) would be lost like a 2 year old in the jungle. GM seem they don't know what to do with their unloved daughter.

VW is no comparison, they have the right people in the driving seat and they are the no 2 worldwide with the ambition to make it to the top spot.
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JJJ
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
But a stand-alone Opel now, especially if owned by the Government (which is completely ruled out) would be lost like a 2 year old in the jungle. GM seem they don't know what to do with their unloved daughter

No one is saying they should stand alone, but as things seem they'll end up bought for peanuts by some Chinese conglomerate who wants to break in the euro market.

The time Opel should have reacted is well past, they're pretty much condemned to end up as a minor appendix instead of an leading company unless they have major financial backing which is just not going to happen.

The reasons for that have already been explained already. Had the Magna deal gone through we might be have seen some change à la Fiat or Renault, but as things stand today, the downward slope will go on for quite some time.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:06 am

What are GM supposed to do?
They do their utmost to boost their core Chevrolet brand in Europe. Signing partnership with Man Utd and Spainish football. Yet pushing Chevrolet is like flogging a dead horse. It will take decades to convince a European to buy a Chevrolet. And GM cant abandon Europe like a sale of Opel/Vauxhall would mean.

The idea that Opel struggles because of costs in Germany is interesting especially when the other German manufacturers such as WV, Mercedes and BMW are all successful and profitable. They have most of their production in Germany as well.
Seeing that Opel is the only German brand not able to be profitable makes me think that Opel is mismanaged and have been so for decades.
Remember GM moving their European HQ to Switzerland to avoid taxes and all that happened was they ended up loosing touch on what went on within the company. importing the model of playing out factories against each other didn't work to well either, especially not when powerful German unions said nein danke to management that just moved HQ away from Opels spiritual home to a country devoid of any car manufacturing industry but famous for zero tax.

Opel is also based in Germany a country not that affected by the Southern European financial crisis. (Our US posters keep on forgetting that while the south have lived way over their means and are now paying the price for it Northern Europe is still a healthy economy and hasn't been plagued by recessions or low economic growth yet - in fact Northern Europes economy has grown faster and more than the US economy.)
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racko
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:57 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 33):
Remember GM moving their European HQ to Switzerland to avoid taxes and all that happened was they ended up loosing touch on what went on within the company.

This is crucial. GM Europe in Zürich was put in place in 1986 - right around that time the short-term thinking started.
 
Ps76
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:22 am

Hi!

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 33):
They do their utmost to boost their core Chevrolet brand in Europe. Signing partnership with Man Utd and Spainish football. Yet pushing Chevrolet is like flogging a dead horse. It will take decades to convince a European to buy a Chevrolet

I totally agree. They suffer from a big stigma of being an American Car with an American name and for some reason very few people in Europe are interested. I don't know why if they are happy to buy European and Asian cars. Personally my family own a Cadillac and a Chevrolet and the reaction is sometimes one of interest and sometimes one of disbelief but nowone follows suit.

As for our Chevrolet we bought a brand new estate car for £10,000 which is probably half the price it would cost for an equivalent like VW or Toyota or something. We have always looked for good value reliable cars and in the 80s Toyota and VW were the answer. But in my opinion prices for both have gone way up and quality down. Our Chevrolet is not luxurious but in the three years we've had it has not needed servicing once which is a lot lot better than my aunt's 2000 Golf which constantly gave her problems. People just dismiss them as being crap and cheap and Korean but how many are actually owners speaking from experience.

Many thanks.

Pierre
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 32):
No one is saying they should stand alone, but as things seem they'll end up bought for peanuts by some Chinese conglomerate who wants to break in the euro market.

If Opel is sold it can be sold only to another car manufacturer. The stand-alone was reflecting what somebody said - that the German government buys Opel. Now, beswides our Goivernment is not in business running companies, who would team up with a company whose supervisory board is made up of bureaucrats who don't even have to drive themselves?
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vc10
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:34 pm

PanHAM,
Just a couple of questions

1] Regarding take overs, and this cannot apply to Opel as it is already owned by a foreign company, but regards other German companies arn't some listed as core industries and cannot be majority owned by Foreign companies

2] I believe the German government does involve it self with running companies as does it not hold 49% of say the German railway and similarly other German utilities.

Ps76
I somewhat agree with you that for a long time now German cars have traded on their high quality and I am sure this still applies, and due to this reputation people have been willing to pay a higher price for them. Now however other nations cars are now catching German cars up as far as build quality is concerned and selling at a cheaper price with better guarantees.
The other problem I see with VW /Audi their regular cars Golfs etc, are starting to look dated when compared to their competition. People like VW but they can get them under the Skoda badge cheaper now
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 37):
1] Regarding take overs, and this cannot apply to Opel as it is already owned by a foreign company, but regards other German companies arn't some listed as core industries and cannot be majority owned by Foreign companies

Airlines are, Lufthansa has to be makority owned by German citizens due to traffic rights, That is dealt with by issung name shares.

Certain military industries have restrictions, HDW shipbuiloders in kiel for instance, if Iran tried to buy them they would run into a problem. The civilian side was sold in 2011 to Abu Dhabi BTW.

Opel is certainly not a core industry, the whole company was sold to the uS early in the last century and Ford is American from the beginning. They produced trucks druing the war BTW..

Quoting vc10 (Reply 37):
I believe the German government does involve it self with running companies as does it not hold 49% of say the German railway and similarly other German utilities.

The German government does not involve itself in running companies. The government does not own anything but the country , Federal Republic of Germany owns 100 % of German Rail, which is run like any other PLC (AG in German)
lesser percentages are owned of Deutsche Post and Deutsche Telekom. The transition from an Authority to a privately run company was made in the early 90s. All those named are competing on the market, Lufthansa is completely free of state ownership, 100 % of the shares are free floating.
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mham001
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
they have platforms (Lopez' idea IIRC) they use across the 12 brands they have, they are efficient, Opel does not have all that and they are kept on the short leash by GM

This is something I don't understand. When GM uses its platforms across many lines, it's bad. Same with Ford (remember Jaguar). Yet, when VW uses 3 platforms across it's entire line!, it's gold.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 33):
They do their utmost to boost their core Chevrolet brand in Europe. Signing partnership with Man Utd and Spainish football. Yet pushing Chevrolet is like flogging a dead horse. It will take decades to convince a European to buy a Chevrolet. And GM cant abandon Europe like a sale of Opel/Vauxhall would mean.

The Korean manufacturers reinvented themselves here in under one decade. So much so they are now media darlings who gush over anything they produce. (It's nice to be over-hyped). Chevrolet is already selling >20% of Opel's sales. I can see them making a turnaround with the name, whether it's wise or not, I don't know.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 33):
The idea that Opel struggles because of costs in Germany is interesting especially when the other German manufacturers such as WV, Mercedes and BMW are all successful and profitable. They have most of their production in Germany as well.

They are also "Premium" and "Luxury" lines. They can more easily hide costs in a more expensive car.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 33):
Northern Europe is still a healthy economy and hasn't been plagued by recessions or low economic growth yet - in fact Northern Europes economy has grown faster and more than the US economy.)

This is a very dangerous attitude. Northern Europe depends on it's export markets. And we had the luxury of reporting only certain regions of the US, we could throw some stones from our glass house too.
 
vc10
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:55 pm

PanHam,

Thanks for the information, but I am not sure I understand the difference between the German Government and the Federal Republic of Germany. However it would seem that DB is not a private company and yet it bids to take over other companies which I though as a non private [government sort of] it was not allowed to do under EU regulations, as no body can bid for it.

Probably wrong, but confused
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:06 pm

VC10 - the government has a mandate for 4 years to run the affairs of the country named Federal Republic of Germany.

DB AG is a privatelya run company, like any other PLC, run according to the PLC laws, the only exception is that the shares are not traded at the stock exchange and they have one owner which is the Federal Republic.DB AG acts like any other PLC/AG

The influence pof the government is through the supervisory board. However, the supervisory board can only nomiate or fire the directors, CEO, CFO (management board) etc and has to authorize investments and general strategy.

Besides that, the management board acts as entreprenours, they run the show and have to turn out a profit each fiscal year. Like a bank or an airline with private shareholders.
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vc10
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:19 pm

PanHam I would like to get more info from you but we had better stop before the moderators accuse us of getting off topic. Thanks again
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:20 pm

yes, let's switch back to Opel. The state of hesse, where the main plant in Ruesselsheim is located, bought a couple of 100 police cars from Opel but the police officers don't like them. too small, not comfy enough.

That coompany is in real trouble, but OK, they have a new board of directors now and they will have to cut costs, regardless, plus nincrease sales and improve quality. All that with market restrictions, they can sell only in europe.

Will be a fun ride.
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vc10
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:25 pm

The problem as I see it is that Opel / Vauxhall are just another cog in a global company that is just interested in the profit, and if more of that can be made by selling Korean built cars than European built ones then they will.After all they did the same to Vauxhall by preventing them from selling their named cars in British traditional markets overseas because they perceived that the same car but with a german name would sell better.

It is interesting though as at the same time that GM are promoting their Korean cars both Hyundai and Kia are now using a German design team to improve the appearance of their cars and it seems to be working. Workers and management used to have loyalty to each other even if they argued now and again , but these days it's all about the bottom dollar
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
VW faced the same quality issues Opel faced (caused by the same people, as VW, jealously looking at Opel's short-term profits, just hired them) - but at least they didn't stop investing in R&D and design, because Piech is probably the ultimate "car guy". They saw in time that the quality was a huge problem, and corrected it.

And VW still has a very poor quality image here in the USA - and rightfully so given the problems that they have had with their Mexico production plants's general lack of quality control. Hopefully the new plant in the USA will have much, much better build quality.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
sccutler
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:43 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 45):
And VW still has a very poor quality image here in the USA - and rightfully so given the problems that they have had with their Mexico production plants's general lack of quality control. Hopefully the new plant in the USA will have much, much better build quality.

Interesting... I have a Jetta built in Puebla, and at 83,000 miles, it is rock solid. No issues at all.
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BMI727
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:28 am

I'll admit to not following GM's European division that closely, but I hope Opel doesn't go anywhere.

I don't care one bit for Chevy's Korean derived subcompacts (I'm not the only one either) so I have to wonder how a revamped North American Chevy might look with their smaller cars based largely on Opel designs and large cars based on Holdens. The North Americans would still have to take care of the Camaro, Corvette, and trucks but I think their car offerings would be much improved by using Opel and Holden designs more.
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na
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
yes, let's switch back to Opel. The state of hesse, where the main plant in Ruesselsheim is located, bought a couple of 100 police cars from Opel but the police officers don't like them. too small, not comfy enough.

That company is in real trouble, but OK, they have a new board of directors now and they will have to cut costs, regardless, plus nincrease sales and improve quality. All that with market restrictions, they can sell only in europe.

Will be a fun ride.

With Opel having the lowest image of all German car brands thats quite a task. A bit sad, because for the first time since ages Opel builds relatively attractive cars. Always being the simple worker´s brand, in the past they were regarded as reliable and were horrible to look at, at least the latter now has changed.
 
PanHAM
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RE: General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?

Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting na (Reply 48):
Always being the simple worker´s brand, in the past they were regarded as reliable and were horrible to look at, at least the latter now has changed.

Yes, jeder popel faehrt 'nen Opel. But they had a good image in the 50, 60s and into the 70s. The 70s Commodore were prestige cars. Absoluteley par with the then BMWs The first Opel Kadett I took with friends up to Scotland in 68 , reliable indeed. I think their main problem is that they are cut off from the markets in the rest of the world., Applies to Holden as well, but they had been protected from competition for long years by high import taxes, or still are, not sure.
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