QFA380
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F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:29 am

Well another fortnight another race.

The McLaren's had a fantastic day nearly a second ahead of Alonso's Ferrari.

Here the times from the first practice session.
Times
01 Jenson Button McLaren 1:16.595 27 laps
02 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 1:17.093 0.498 22 laps
03 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1:17.370 0.775 21 laps
04 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1:17.382 0.787 20 laps
05 Sergio Perez Sauber 1:17.413 0.818 28 laps
06 Nico Hulkenberg Force India 1:17.599 1.004 17 laps
07 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1:17.915 1.320 27 laps
08 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:17.995 1.400 22 laps
09 Pastor Maldonado Williams 1:18.020 1.425 20 laps
10 Romain Grosjean Lotus 1:18.130 1.535 21 laps
11 Kamui Kobayashi Sauber 1:18.226 1.631 22 laps
12 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 1:18.339 1.744 21 laps
13 Valtteri Bottas Williams 1:18.422 1.827 28 laps
14 Daniel Ricciardo Toro Rosso 1:18.709 2.114 30 laps
15 Kimi Raikkonen Lotus 1:18.831 2.236 14 laps
16 Jules Bianchi Force India 1:18.972 2.377 21 laps
17 Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso 1:19.039 2.444 34 laps
18 Vitaly Petrov Caterham 1:19.674 3.079 24 laps
19 Heikki Kovalainen Caterham 1:19.963 3.368 24 laps
20 Mark Webber Red Bull 1:20.122 3.527 27 laps
21 Charles Pic Marussia 1:20.169 3.574 20 laps
22 Timo Glock Marussia 1:20.539 3.944 18 laps
23 Pedro de la Rosa HRT 1:21.138 4.543 24 laps
24 Dani Clos HRT 1:21.740 5.145 27 laps


In other news, not sure if this was mentioned in the last thread but Webber has signed up for another year with RedBull, shame I was hoping he'd move over to Ferrari.
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:58 am

Except in P2 McLaren were miles off.
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:17 pm

I am at this race. Weather was certainly a factor today. Should clear up tomorrow. Cheering for Schumacher and Rosberg since we are here as guests of Mercedes AMG Petronas. Hopefully Schumi has a good race.
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CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:55 pm

Here's the result of a rather wet qualifying session:

Pos Driver Team Time Gap
1. Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1m40.621s
2. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1m41.026s + 0.405
3. Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1m41.496s + 1.838
4. Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1m42.459s + 2.880
5. Nico Hulkenberg Force India-Mercedes 1m43.501s + 3.329
6. Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1m43.950s + 3.492
7. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1m44.113s + 3.565
8. Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1m44.186s + 0.875
9. Paul di Resta Force India-Mercedes 1m44.889s + 4.268
10. Kimi Raikkonen Lotus-Renault 1m45.811s + 5.190
Q2 cut-off time: 1m39.729s Gap **
11. Daniel Ricciardo Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m39.789s + 2.424
12. Sergio Perez Sauber-Ferrari 1m39.933s + 2.568
13. Kamui Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1m39.985s + 2.620
14. Felipe Massa Ferrari 1m40.212s + 2.847
15. Romain Grosjean Lotus-Renault 1m40.574s + 3.209
16. Bruno Senna Williams-Renault 1m40.752s + 3.387
17. Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1m41.551s + 4.186
Q1 cut-off time: 1m16.686s Gap *
18. Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m16.741s + 1.048
19. Heikki Kovalainen Caterham-Renault 1m17.620s + 1.927
20. Vitaly Petrov Caterham-Renault 1m18.531s + 2.838
21. Charles Pic Marussia-Cosworth 1m19.220s + 3.527
22. Timo Glock Marussia-Cosworth 1m19.291s + 3.598
23. Pedro de la Rosa HRT-Cosworth 1m19.912s + 4.219
24. Narain Karthikeyan HRT-Cosworth 1m20.230s + 4.537

Webber will take a 5 place grid penalty for a gearbox change, so he will start 8th, and Schumacher will start 3rd. It should be an interesting race. I'll be cheering for both Williams, Vettel, and anyone other than Alonso or Schumacher :P
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:11 am

Interesting moment in the Thursday press conference where Seb Vettel said his first visit to Hockenheim was as a 5 Y/O in 1992 when his father took him to see Michael Schumacher race, wonder how the senior Mercedes AMG Petronas driver sitting next to him felt?

Sunday News,
RedBull are being investigated for breaches of engine mapping rules that increase mid range exhaust output that allegedly increases the gas flow through the diffuser during cornering.

Not sure how this works as the cars"reportedly" do not have blown diffussers any more, indeed the exhaust is mandated to exit out the top of the chassis to preclude this.

According to some reports they may have to start from the Pit Lane.

IMHO if they are in breach of the rules*** they should not start at all.


*** I must add these are rules I do not agree with.

[Edited 2012-07-22 02:57:36]
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Aesma
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 2):
I am at this race. Weather was certainly a factor today. Should clear up tomorrow. Cheering for Schumacher and Rosberg since we are here as guests of Mercedes AMG Petronas. Hopefully Schumi has a good race.

I'm jealous, how did you get invited ?
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:50 pm

Watching the German GP right now. Shame the locals can't be bothered to turn up!!

I am no fan of the artificial races in places that have no racing heritage or passion, those Middle Eastern, Asian(and others) locations will be familiar to many readers here but the lack of patronage at the German Grand Prix takes the sting out of that "purist" argument.

If the Euro purists don't want to see the races then maybe the future is elsewhere!

Let's drop the emasculated Hockenheim race, no one cares anyway!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
QFA380
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:35 pm

Have to see what the stewards say about Vettel's pass of Button on the second last lap, Button sounded gutted.

Congrats to Alonso on another win, I'd say his recent consistency, he's largely got the championship in the bag.

Disappointing race for Webber unfortunately.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 6):

It does look pretty weak when the stands are empty...
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:07 pm

Vettel got what he deserved!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101426

I wish they could hand the crybaby a penalty as well for having a go at Hamilton as he overtook Vettel fair and square.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
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Aesma
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 6):
Watching the German GP right now. Shame the locals can't be bothered to turn up!!

I am no fan of the artificial races in places that have no racing heritage or passion, those Middle Eastern, Asian(and others) locations will be familiar to many readers here but the lack of patronage at the German Grand Prix takes the sting out of that "purist" argument.

If the Euro purists don't want to see the races then maybe the future is elsewhere!

Let's drop the emasculated Hockenheim race, no one cares anyway!

The price of the tickets might have to do with the attendance.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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larshjort
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting sudden (Reply 8):
Vettel got what he deserved!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101426

I wish they could hand the crybaby a penalty as well for having a go at Hamilton as he overtook Vettel fair and square.

Yes, a deserved penalty. According to Tom Christensen they discussed and agreed earlier this year that you are not allowed to overtake with all 4 wheels off the track. And with regards to Hamilton overtaking Vettel I think they need to look at DRS rules. Why was Hamilton allowed to use DRS? He was not within 1 second of Vettel, he was 1lap +1 second behind.That said Vettel need to control his frustrations.

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Aesma
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:59 pm

DRS rules are about position on the track, physically. It was always like that and we often see leaders using DRS behind lapped cars (in fact Alonso's engineer told him during the race to do this, and he did), but also lapped cars doing it, however usually just to gain speed and defend their own position against a rival also lapped that is using DRS.
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:13 am

Well, great fun today, with the first 3 positions very close to eachother for the entire race. Alonso was superb in keeping his nerve and not making mistakes despite having the pressure of Vettel, Button and even LH (what the hell was he doing?). About Vettel's manouver ... I was unaware of this specific rule, but honestly, I don't like it, at leat in today's race. Vettel's move seemed legit, pure racing if you ask me.

anyway, Forza Ferrari!!!! Unbelievable how the car has improved throughout the season!!
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
About Vettel's manouver ... I was unaware of this specific rule, but honestly, I don't like it, at leat in today's race. Vettel's move seemed legit, pure racing if you ask me.

Vettel's move was in no way legit and if he had given the spot back as he should have he would still have finished second and kept it due to Buttons tyres being finished. Vettel made a poor decision in the cockpit and got rightly punished.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
na
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:43 am

I just saw the start and the first 5 laps, and then had better things to do - driving a Ferrari Italia on a wonderful afternoon!

Coming back I was happy to see that Alonso won as after the first few laps it was looking like Vettel would be faster and getting him soon. Vettel´s penalty was fully justified, even a rookie knows then if he overtakes by taking a shortcut he better should let the other one pass again. The adolescent whining and nagging of the Red Bull team and Vettel himself, now to be watched each and every race, is really not champion-like.

And then I was surprised by two inexplicable bad performances: Webber´s (this man won two races this year?) and Massa´s (I thought he had overcome his bad performances of the first races). Certainly good for the sport that the Red Bulls are far from first place in the championship at least for some races to come.

Whoever becomes champion in the end, and it looks a lot like Alonso this time, I do think that his win again clearly showed who´s the best driver. The last two years the best car won, this year it could be the best driver for a change, hopefully.
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
what the hell was he doing?).

He was overtaking a slower car. But as Vettel can not drive when having traffic around him, he had to complain about it.
Hamilton did not hold up Vettel or forced him to go off the racing line either when overtaking him, so Vettel did not lose anything, apart from his childish temper.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:22 am

Damn, did I miss something interesting?

Came home from work a little out of sorts, dozed off and missed the first 10 or so laps, pretty sure I woke and watched the rest of the race before I went to bed... have no recollection of the finish.

Will have to watch the replay and see what went on!

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
Alonso was superb

Ah, my Argentinian friend, haven't heard much from you lately.. Get the red cars back up front and you reappear... coincidence?? I don't think so

Good to see you back here..
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 16):
Damn, did I miss something interesting?

In the closing stage of the race Vettel messed up pretty good. And Hamilton pulled a valid stunt on Vettel which Vettel found out of order.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting sudden (Reply 17):
....

So I surmised from what I have seen online... looking forward to watching the complete race but after another long OT day I will be watching this during my Tue/Wed "weekend"
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
LH (what the hell was he doing?).

Overtaking a slower car? I think it's called racing.   

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
I was unaware of this specific rule, but honestly, I don't like it, at leat in today's race. Vettel's move seemed legit, pure racing if you ask me.

The rule was clarrified after the Hamilton/Rosberg incident earlier in the season. What Vettel did is not much different from overtaking by cutting a chicane. Same rule applies - he left the circuit and gained an advantage. As for his BS excuse - "I didn't know where he was, so I left him room." If he didn't know where Button was, he shouldn't be driving an F1 car.   
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CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:48 pm

Quoting sudden (Reply 8):
I wish they could hand the crybaby a penalty as well for having a go at Hamilton as he overtook Vettel fair and square.

I think you wrote his name wrong.

Double World Champion Sebastian Vettel.

Yes, I agree Hamilton's move to unlap himself was all fair and above board. Yes, Vettel was gesticulating at Hamilton. So what? How is that worth a penalty? Under which rule could the penalty be imposed?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):

  

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10):
Yes, a deserved penalty. According to Tom Christensen they discussed and agreed earlier this year that you are not allowed to overtake with all 4 wheels off the track
Quoting na (Reply 14):
Vettel´s penalty was fully justified, even a rookie knows then if he overtakes by taking a shortcut he better should let the other one pass again.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 19):
What Vettel did is not much different from overtaking by cutting a chicane. Same rule applies - he left the circuit and gained an advantage.

Yes, there is the rule which says you cannot gain an advantage while having all four wheels off the track, but I think that move was intended for drivers who overtake by cutting a chicane. Vettel didn't do that. He went around the outside - the long way around. That he gained an advantage was not because he had all four wheels off the track, but because Button's tyres had gone by that time. Or let me put it another way: the fact of his having all four wheels off the track is not the cause of his gaining an advantage.

I will grant, however, that by the strict letter of the law, Vettel had breached that provision, but the penalty was ludicrious, in my view. Nevertheless, not much to do now apart from to get on with it and make sure Alonso doesn't get too far ahead.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
About Vettel's manouver ... I was unaware of this specific rule, but honestly, I don't like it, at leat in today's race. Vettel's move seemed legit, pure racing if you ask me.


I agree.

Quoting na (Reply 14):
The adolescent whining and nagging of the Red Bull team and Vettel himself, now to be watched each and every race, is really not champion-like.

What whining and nagging? Care to name an example? Care to name a driver who hasn't gesticulated at another driver from the cockpit?

Quoting na (Reply 14):
The last two years the best car won, this year it could be the best driver for a change, hopefully.

What a load of rubbish. Best car or not, it is not an easy task to win championships. Even in the best car, you still have to beat your teammate. In winning the title last year, Vettel dominated his teammate in the same car. He drove almost faultlessly the entire season, and showed great maturity well beyond his years. The year before that, Vettel had to fight for his championship, right down to the wire where he drove a faultless race to win the final round in Abu Dhabi, while Alonso and Webber both stuffed up. This is another example of Vettel keeping a cool head when the pressure's on.

Vettel is right up there with Alonso and Hamilton as the best drivers currently on the F1 grid. Hopefully, Vettel will come back from behind like he did two years ago, and win his third title in a row to become the youngest Formula 1 triple world champion.

Quoting sudden (Reply 15):
But as Vettel can not drive when having traffic around him, he had to complain about it.

  This line is getting really old. You forget that Vettel started his career in the midfield, first with BMW, then with Toro Rosso. Then there's the win he scored in the Toro Rosso. There has been several instances of Vettel coming up through the field after qualifying near the back of the grid to finish in the points. Vettel has proven himself time and time again to be one of the very best drivers in Formula 1. I don't know what temper you're referring to. If it's waving his fist at Hamilton, name one driver who has never so much as lifted his finger in anger while in the cockpit.

[Edited 2012-07-23 05:49:33]
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sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
I don't know what temper you're referring to

Well, Vettel is very fast as well when it comes to complain about other drivers and act like a child who lost his candy.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
Vettel didn't do that. He went around the outside - the long way around. That he gained an advantage was not because he had all four wheels off the track, but because Button's tyres had gone by that time. Or let me put it another way: the fact of his having all four wheels off the track is not the cause of his gaining an advantage.

Actually, in this case, yes it was due to him having all four wheels off the track - the drivers were warned on this exact point twice before the race, in particular about one corner but in general about the race track.

The reason being is that if you take a wider line through that corner, and go off the track to do so, its an easier corner and you lose less momentum doing so - in this case, Vettel passed a car while going outside the track boundaries, and suffered a penalty as a result.

If there was a curb on the outside at that corner, there wouldnt be any issue because that curb (or astroturf, or sand, or gravel etc) would have slowed the car down, but at this particular corner (and the other corner the Stewards were concerned about) its a continuation of tarmac, meaning there is no physical penalty to going over the line.
 
na
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
What whining and nagging? Care to name an example? Care to name a driver who hasn't gesticulated at another driver from the cockpit?

I am talking about the childish rubbish he often says after the races he wasnt competitive or lost otherwise, not about a gesture in the race. I did like Vettel, but I now see that he´s not grown-up enough to be a real champ. Same has to be said about his team btw.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
What a load of rubbish. Best car or not, it is not an easy task to win championships.

Are you denying the RB was the best car in 2010/11? Are you denying that its Alonso more than Ferrari who put himself wher he is now? Sure a top driver has to beat his teammate first but if he´s got the best car that almost the only thing to do. Alonso´s task this year was much more difficult so far, but could be easier in the second half of the season.
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting na (Reply 23):
I am talking about the childish rubbish he often says after the races he wasnt competitive or lost otherwise, not about a gesture in the race. I did like Vettel, but I now see that he´s not grown-up enough to be a real champ

Amen!

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
In winning the title last year, Vettel dominated his teammate in the same car

Sure, he is blistering fast as long as he doesn't have to fight his way through the field. It's a known fact that if he has to do just that he has loads of excuses after the race blaming all kinds of drivers why he did not win the race.
And why do you think he dominated Webber? Because Vettel got all the goodies! This year the car is not dominating the grid, and an allround driver like Alonso is wiping the track with the youngster.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 22):
The reason being is that if you take a wider line through that corner, and go off the track to do so, its an easier corner and you lose less momentum doing so

Fair point, but the counter to that argument is that by going off track he had put himself in an area where there was less grip (he went over a painted area, and off the racing line where there were marbles).

Quoting na (Reply 23):
I am talking about the childish rubbish he often says after the races he wasnt competitive or lost otherwise, not about a gesture in the race. I did like Vettel, but I now see that he´s not grown-up enough to be a real champ. Same has to be said about his team btw.

What childish rubbish? Give an example, other than his expressing disappointment after not winning a race. Racing drivers are competitive by nature, and not winning isn't anything to cheer or smile about. In fact, I would be surprised to see a racing driver jumping around the podium like a headless chook when they hadn't won the race.

Quoting na (Reply 23):
Are you denying the RB was the best car in 2010/11?

In 2010, Red Bull had a clear advantage through high speed corners, but McLaren had better straight line speed, and both McLaren and Ferrari had better reliability. So if speed over one lap is the only measure of how good a car is, then yes, the Red Bull was superb. As an entire package, however, it wasn't perfect.

In 2011, Red Bull had by far the best car, no question about that.

Quoting na (Reply 23):
Are you denying that its Alonso more than Ferrari who put himself wher he is now?

Yes, I am absolutely denying that. Ferrari didn't have a very good car at the beginning of the year, but kudos to Ferrari and its technical team, they have now improved beyond sight to the point where they are consistently winning races. That Alonso is now winning is because Ferrari can now give him a car which is capable of winning races. A driver is only as good as his car.

Quoting sudden (Reply 24):
Sure, he is blistering fast as long as he doesn't have to fight his way through the field. It's a known fact that if he has to do just that he has loads of excuses after the race blaming all kinds of drivers why he did not win the race.

No, it's not a fact, it's an opinion, and an unsubstantiated one at that. He has done his fair share of fighting his way through the field earlier in his career. The fact that he hasn't had to lately is because he had a great car, and as one of the best drivers on the grid, he made sure to stick it on pole position and drive off into the sunset (and the victory). As for "excuses", you mean things like admitting to making a mistake at last year's Canadian GP?

Quoting sudden (Reply 24):
And why do you think he dominated Webber? Because Vettel got all the goodies!

I suppose you have proof of that?

[Edited 2012-07-23 07:49:41]
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
Fair point, but the counter to that argument is that by going off track he had put himself in an area where there was less grip (he went over a painted area, and off the racing line where there were marbles).

But the effect of that is not guaranteed - lots of drivers have been off on that corner accidentically over the course of the race, so it might not be as dirty as you think, as well as the fact that traction might not be as important in that phase of the corner (if you aren't accelerating or braking, the tyres can use all the grip to maintain the curve - with a looser turn, you have less need to break or accelerate at the same points as the tighter turning car).

It also doesn't negate the fact that you can carry more momentum into the exit of the corner, beating a tighter turning car in the acceleration phase.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 19):
The rule was clarrified after the Hamilton/Rosberg incident earlier in the season. What Vettel did is not much different from overtaking by cutting a chicane. Same rule applies - he left the circuit and gained an advantage. As for his BS excuse - "I didn't know where he was, so I left him room." If he didn't know where Button was, he shouldn't be driving an F1 car.

but in reality, this has nothing in common wit cutting a chicane. Actually, I see it as a disadvantage to go outside the track, having less grip and more distance involved in the turn.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 16):
Ah, my Argentinian friend, haven't heard much from you lately.. Get the red cars back up front and you reappear... coincidence?? I don't think so

thanks, it's good to be back ... In fact I have been back, but lately these threads were not that amusing. That, plus very little time, kept me out of here, but I will try to get back and post more often!
I miss the good old FIA discussions lol!
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 27):
Actually, I see it as a disadvantage to go outside the track, having less grip and more distance involved in the turn.

But the flip side is that it becomes a higher energy turn... more momentum on the exit, which means you are going to beat the tighter turning car in the acceleration phase.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 27):
I see it as a disadvantage to go outside the track, having less grip and more distance involved in the turn.

Which begs the question, why didn't he just stay inside the lines then? there would have been less disadvantage and he would not have been penalized.

As one cannot tell with any certainty how much was gained by going off the track and how much by having better tyres still one should er on the side of the rules i.e. no overtaking off the track.

Fred
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 29):
As one cannot tell with any certainty how much was gained by going off the track and how much by having better tyres still one should er on the side of the rules i.e. no overtaking off the track.

Feir enough, but I keep on wathcing the sequence and I really don't see Vettel getting an advantage from anything. I agree that had he let Button back in front, he would have had chances to overtake him again, but I see this as a harsh punishment (and that's considering it's a good thing for Alonso!).

And about LH, ok, he was faster that Vettel, but it feels like the only reason why he did what he did was to help Button. Maybe a bit too risky, especially when LH in a bad mood is involved.
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sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
The fact that he hasn't had to lately is because he had a great car, and as one of the best drivers on the grid, he made sure to stick it on pole position and drive off into the sunset (and the victory).

True, but if you look at his driving from further back the grid it's simply not that dominant and great as if it is Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton to name a few. I fail to agree that he is a great driver cause he never really had to fight for his titles. Sure thing, he was able to use a fast car to the maximum cause he is fast. I will not argue that. But now he has some serious competition, and Alonso is simply so much better the Vettel.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
you mean things like admitting to making a mistake at last year's Canadian GP?

Admitting one mistake does not make up for the excuses that he made, and will make if he does not get what he wants.
Really having a hard time understanding how you can not see the facts when they are right in front of you. Just look at his excuse for overtaking Button outside the track and think that he would get away with it.
But ok, we need to agree to disagree.
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racko
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting sudden (Reply 24):
Alonso is wiping the track with the youngster.

Yeah, sure...except that if it weren't for the alternator breaking in Valencia and Karthikeyan crashing into him while being lapped, Vettel would be dead even with Alonso in the WDC. Unless you can manufacture a way where those two incident are either Vettel's fault or Alonso's achievement, I would hardly call it "wiping the track".
 
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:10 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
I'm jealous, how did you get invited ?

We own an AMG and are members of their owners' club, and this was offered to all club members.

Absolutely amazing weekend. I met DC, Mika Hakkinen, and Niki Lauda. And I played cowbell for Norbert Haug.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
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zckls04
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
Fair point, but the counter to that argument is that by going off track he had put himself in an area where there was less grip (he went over a painted area, and off the racing line where there were marbles).

That's irrelevant. The point of a racetrack is that you drive around the track- you don't go offroading. Vettel would not have been able to complete the move without going off the track as he had braked too late to make the turn legitimately.

In the old days that would have put Vettel in the gravel (or in the REALLY old days a tree). In Monaco his race would be over. However these days bigger runoff areas are required for added safety, and as such rules are required to make sure drivers aren't able to pass of the road.

Look at it this way- if a car infringes a technical regulation, you don't establish whether that car gains an advantage from the infringement before penalizing it. You penalize it anyway. The penalty for Vettel was cast-iron and completely fair.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
What childish rubbish?

I think he's referring to things like calling Hamilton "stupid" for completely legitimately unlapping himself. He does have a habit of petulance sometimes; Hamilton used to be the same although he has matured a little now after (rightly) getting a lot of flack for the same kind of thing.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
No, it's not a fact, it's an opinion, and an unsubstantiated one at that. He has done his fair share of fighting his way through the field earlier in his career.

Agreed- Vettel can pass with the best of them (later in his career as well as earlier). This argument is demonstrably false.
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sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:15 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 34):
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
No, it's not a fact, it's an opinion, and an unsubstantiated one at that. He has done his fair share of fighting his way through the field earlier in his career.

Agreed- Vettel can pass with the best of them (later in his career as well as earlier). This argument is demonstrably false.

Why is it then that always when he has to fight his way for positions, that he always complains after the race finding all kinds of reasons to why he did not win?
Ok, Vettel is fast, no question about it, but he really acts like like a child as soon as things does not go his way. Yes, other drivers might do this, and as stated earlier, Hamilton used to be the same. Massa was/is still like this.
But Vettel claiming that he did not know where Button was is just simply stupid. He tried something that he know is not allowed, and lost out.
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na
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:31 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
What childish rubbish? Give an example

There was more, but just this out of my mind:
Valencia: accusing the judges for his car´s breakdown due to an "unnecessary" safety car-phase.
Hockenheim: Accusing Hamilton, a direct competitor, for overtaking him.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 34):
I think he's referring to things like calling Hamilton "stupid" for completely legitimately unlapping himself. He does have a habit of petulance sometimes; Hamilton used to be the same although he has matured a little now after (rightly) getting a lot of flack for the same kind of thing.

Exactly.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 34):
Agreed- Vettel can pass with the best of them (later in his career as well as earlier). This argument is demonstrably false.

Surely Vettel is one of the best drivers, no one denies that. Not saying that Alonso is more sympathetic, but imho he is an even better driver than Vettel. Cooler, more stable, reminds me of Schumacher in his best days.
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:24 am

Quoting na (Reply 36):
Surely Vettel is one of the best drivers, no one denies that.

I deny that. Personally I think he's shit. Yuji Ide is better than Vettel. And he was stripped of his super licence.

Quoting sudden (Reply 35):
Ok, Vettel is fast, no question about it,

No. The car is fast. You should know better.

Quoting racko (Reply 32):
Yeah, sure...except that if it weren't for the alternator breaking in Valencia and Karthikeyan crashing into him while being lapped, Vettel would be dead even with Alonso in the WDC. Unless you can manufacture a way where those two incident are either Vettel's fault or Alonso's achievement, I would hardly call it "wiping the track".

Except that Alonso has done more with what is arguably a worse car. While the Ferrari has gotten better, the Red Bull has been more consistent and Vettel has failed to capitalise.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
You forget that Vettel started his career in the midfield, first with BMW, then with Toro Rosso

I'd hardly call standing in for one race, in what was effectively the best of the rest, a start to his career.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
Then there's the win he scored in the Toro Rosso.

Which was effectively the same car as the Red Bull team.
 
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:29 am

Quoting na (Reply 36):
Hockenheim: Accusing Hamilton, a direct competitor, for overtaking him.

Hamilton wasn't a direct competitor, he was a lap down. And that unlapping cost Vettel exactly the time that Button needed to undercut him during the pit stop. It was McLaren, the team that always points their fingers at Ferrari and others for team orders, playing team games. Hamilton had only one job in the race, help Button by delaying Vettel (and Alonso, but that didn't work out because Alonso was warned after they had pulled the stunt on Vettel). After that job was done, they retired him so they can change the gearbox without incurring a penalty.

If this were Ferrari doing this with Massa, everybody would be up in arms about the "shady games of those Italians!".

Quoting na (Reply 36):
Cooler, more stable, reminds me of Schumacher in his best days.

Alonso is 6 years older and has been racing in F1 for 6 years longer than Vettel. Vettel is still younger now than Schumacher was when he won his first WDC.
 
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:53 am

Quoting moo (Reply 26):
It also doesn't negate the fact that you can carry more momentum into the exit of the corner, beating a tighter turning car in the acceleration phase.

All things being equal, yes, I suppose. And I agree that the net effect of going off track is not guaranteed, as you put it. But the grip offered by being off track and on track was not equal, neither were the cars they were driving.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 29):
Which begs the question, why didn't he just stay inside the lines then? there would have been less disadvantage and he would not have been penalized.

Because he didn't want to risk colliding with Button.

Quoting sudden (Reply 31):
True, but if you look at his driving from further back the grid it's simply not that dominant and great as if it is Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton to name a few.

2007 Chinese GP: Vettel qualified 17th, finished 4th. In a Toro Rosso
2007 Japanese GP: Vettel qualified 8th, was running 3rd until a collision with Webber put them both out of the race
2008 Monaco GP: Qualified 19th, finished 5th.
2008 Canadian GP: Qualified 19th, finished 8th, albeit with 7 retirements, three of which were Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton.
2008 Belgian GP: Qualified 10th, finished 5th.

That's not to mention his brilliant drive in Brazil that year in which he beat Hamilton in an inferior car.

2009 Belgian GP: Qualified 8th, finished 3rd.
2009 Brazilian GP: Quaflied 15th, finishd 4th.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 34):
In the old days that would have put Vettel in the gravel

It would be great to bring back gravel traps, if only to discourage drivers from going off track.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 34):
Look at it this way- if a car infringes a technical regulation, you don't establish whether that car gains an advantage from the infringement before penalizing it. You penalize it anyway. The penalty for Vettel was cast-iron and completely fair.

But the degree of penalty to be imposed would depend on the advantage gained. While I agree that Vettel had infringed by the strict letter of the law, I disagree that he had gained any advantage as a result of going around the outside of Button, and I think that the penalty imposed was too harsh. In the absence of a lighter penalty available to the stewards, a reprimand would've been more appropriate.

Quoting sudden (Reply 35):
Why is it then that always when he has to fight his way for positions, that he always complains after the race finding all kinds of reasons to why he did not win?

Always?

Quoting na (Reply 36):
There was more, but just this out of my mind:
Valencia: accusing the judges for his car´s breakdown due to an "unnecessary" safety car-phase.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/5/13346.html

Quote:

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel (6th)

“It was difficult race and a hard day in the office. I’m not entirely happy, we could have finished maybe one position higher up, but we had a good recovery in the end. We were definitely stronger towards the end of the race and it was good fun, but when it’s up and down and up and down, it’s quite difficult. I don’t know what the problem was when we had to change the nose of the car; I wasn’t sure if I had damage or something stuck at the front - maybe a piece of rubber or something. I tried another lap, but it wasn’t the right thing to do, so we decided to come in and change the nose to make sure. It lost us some time, but it was the right thing, as I was told there was some damage to the front left of the wing.”

No mention of an unnecessary safety car here ....

Quoting na (Reply 36):
Hockenheim: Accusing Hamilton, a direct competitor, for overtaking him.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/7/13628.html

Quote:

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel (2nd)

“We had a decent race today although there wasn’t enough pace when we got close to Fernando and we also lost a position to Jenson who had a good pit stop and came in earlier. A couple of laps before that, I lost some time with Lewis as he un-lapped himself. At the end of the race, Jenson’s tyres were gone and we were able to close the gap again. It was then a question of when, rather than where, and I tried to outbreak him. He opened the break again and then was up the inside; I wasn’t sure where he was, I couldn’t see him in that moment, so decided to give enough space and went off line on the slippery paint and I was able to stay ahead and get past him. The only intention was not to crash and to give him enough room. I have respect for him and I didn’t want to squeeze him. It was good to be on the podium at the home race, but I have to respect the steward’s decision.”

Nope, no mention of Hamilton being "stupid" here, merely stating the fact that he lost time due to driving in the turbulent air created by Hamilton's car. Not an excuse, a fact. Vettel also did not say that the move was illegitimate.

It seems to me that those who are calling Vettel a "crybaby" like to invent things to put into his mouth instead of reading what he actually said.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 37):
I deny that. Personally I think he's shit. Yuji Ide is better than Vettel. And he was stripped of his super licence.

 Yeah sure

I'm not even going to bother responding to that.

[Edited 2012-07-24 03:55:11]
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sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 37):
Quoting sudden (Reply 35):
Ok, Vettel is fast, no question about it,

No. The car is fast. You should know better.

Yes but considering the company I am in here, I am trying to keep it clean.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 37):
Except that Alonso has done more with what is arguably a worse car. While the Ferrari has gotten better, the Red Bull has been more consistent and Vettel has failed to capitalise.

Vettel is failing on lots of things, but just because he has 2 titles under his belt that he won from the front row the crowd seem to to think that he is an allround driver. Which is so far off the truth as you can come.
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sudden
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:59 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
Always?

Yes, always! Not sure what broadcasting your watching, but on TV he sure let go and show his true colours.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
It seems to me that those who are calling Vettel a "crybaby" like to invent things to put into his mouth instead of reading what he actually said.

Get real. Again, not sure what channel you are watching.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:05 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
Because he didn't want to risk colliding with Button.

He should have stayed behind then. Button was where he wanted to be then vettel has to respect that. Unless everyone should have to get a blue flag when vettel is behind?

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
Nope, no mention of Hamilton being "stupid" here, merely stating the fact that he lost time due to driving in the turbulent air created by Hamilton's car. Not an excuse, a fact. Vettel also did not say that the move was illegitimate.

It seems to me that those who are calling Vettel a "crybaby" like to invent things to put into his mouth instead of reading what he actually said.

Vettel said: "I don't see the point in him trying to race us. It is a bit stupid to race the leaders."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18946719

Fred
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bill142
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:24 am

Quoting sudden (Reply 40):
Vettel is failing on lots of things, but just because he has 2 titles under his belt that he won from the front row the crowd seem to to think that he is an allround driver. Which is so far off the truth as you can come.

Maybe he should drive go drive for Lotus. Raikkonen and Grojean have been more impressive in 10 races than Vettel has his entire career.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):

Nope, no mention of Hamilton being "stupid" here, merely stating the fact that he lost time due to driving in the turbulent air created by Hamilton's car. Not an excuse, a fact. Vettel also did not say that the move was illegitimate.

Plenty of it being implied here:

Quoting Sebastian Vettel:
That was not nice of him. I don't see the point why he's trying to race us. If he wants to go fast he can drop back, find a gap and go fast there. But it's a bit stupid to disturb the leaders. He was a lap down so I don't see the point anyways. I think that potentially lost us the position to Jenson. Because soon after that we pitted, I think only two or three laps after that. So yeah, I think all in all the pace was there but it was extremely difficult once we were close to Fernando, and also in the end closer to Jenson. We seemed to lose quite a lot and not stay close enough to really try something for the following corner or to get close at the straights to try something under braking, so that seemed to be the problem. Yeah, so… ah, not entirely happy. I think we could have been a little bit better in clean air if we would have, yeah, been in clean air for most of the race. But that wasn't the case, so all in all I think we did a good race, especially a good recovery at the end, looking after the tyres and getting past Jenson. It was more a less a question of when to pass him as his tyres were is quite poor shape and he was struggling a lot. So happy to take second in the end.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101435

Seems to me that Vettel is suffering from a case of sour grapes that McLaren effectively used Hamilton and his superior pace at that point to keep Button in contention and eventually claim 2nd from him. Red Bull would have done the same if they were in that position. But then Vettel went and blatantly cheated to 'take' 2nd and cried foul again that he was pushed off the track when he clearly wasn't and even if he was JB was rightly defending his position. No dice Seb. All he's talented at is blaming everyone else.
 
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:34 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 43):
Maybe he should drive go drive for Lotus. Raikkonen and Grojean have been more impressive in 10 races than Vettel has his entire career.

No thanks, I think Boullier is happy with his driver lineup as none of them are complaining at each other, or the rest of the grid.
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:37 am

Quoting racko (Reply 38):
Hamilton wasn't a direct competitor, he was a lap down.



So? There's nothing in the rules that says a lapped driver cannot unlap himself. And nor should there be. Hamilton was clearly quicker than Vettel at that point in the race.

Quoting racko (Reply 38):
And that unlapping cost Vettel exactly the time that Button needed to undercut him during the pit stop.



Seriously, I don't see the issue. If Vettel can't keep a lapped car behind him, then he deserved to lose the place to Button.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
Because he didn't want to risk colliding with Button.



I call BS! He knew exactly where Button was, they went round the hairpin side by side.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
But the degree of penalty to be imposed would depend on the advantage gained. While I agree that Vettel had infringed by the strict letter of the law, I disagree that he had gained any advantage as a result of going around the outside of Button, and I think that the penalty imposed was too harsh.



Sorry, I think the penalty was completely fair. If it had happened earlier in the race Vettel would have been given a drive-through.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
Nope, no mention of Hamilton being "stupid" here,



Selective reading? Vettel's "stupid" comment was widely reported. A Google search for "hamilton move stupid" will provide lots of links.    Thy this one from a very reputable source:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101413

Quote:
Sebastian Vettel hit out at Lewis Hamilton for unlapping himself during the German Grand Prix, calling the McLaren driver's actions "stupid".
...
"That was not nice of Lewis. I don't see why he was racing us," said Vettel. "If he wants to go fast he should drop back and find a gap. It was stupid as he was a lap down."



It seems that Vettel has a lot of problems "seeing" anything outside planet Me, Myself and I.
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:52 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
All things being equal, yes, I suppose. And I agree that the net effect of going off track is not guaranteed, as you put it. But the grip offered by being off track and on track was not equal, neither were the cars they were driving.

The inequality in the cars is part of the competition, so not worth even covering here.

The inequality in the grip between on and off track is something that can be contended - by someone elses count there were 71 excursions off the track at that corner during the race, more than there were in some of the offline overtaking places, which would have cleaned up the off track section of tarmac at that corner...
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 46):
The inequality in the grip between on and off track is something that can be contended - by someone elses count there were 71 excursions off the track at that corner during the race, more than there were in some of the offline overtaking places, which would have cleaned up the off track section of tarmac at that corner...

71 times? very interesting, I noticed that some drivers seemed to be almost systematically going wide off some corners and I would image that this could really reduce tyre wear towards the end of the race.

Fred
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CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting sudden (Reply 41):
Yes, always! Not sure what broadcasting your watching, but on TV he sure let go and show his true colours.

Vettel has won 22 races out of 91 that he competed in, so unless you can find me 69 examples of his "whinging", I call BS on that one.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 42):
Vettel said: "I don't see the point in him trying to race us. It is a bit stupid to race the leaders."
Quoting scbriml (Reply 45):
Selective reading? Vettel's "stupid" comment was widely reported.

Calling the move stupid is a far, far cry from calling Hamilton stupid. He did the former, not the latter.

I agree that Hamilton unlapping himself was legitimate. Hamilton was completely within his rights to unlap himself, and quite frankly, if I was Hamilton, I would've done exactly the same.

But that doesn't mean Vettel doesn't have a point. Hamilton wasn't in the race with the leaders, and by unlapping himself he had cost Vettel some time. Even Alonso admitted that it was good to have Hamilton between him and Vettel, because that meant Alonso could build a gap while Vettel was stuck in the turbulent air created by Hamilton's car.

Is it wrong for Hamilton to unlap himself? Absolutely not. Does Vettel have a point? Abso-bloody-lutely.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 43):
Maybe he should drive go drive for Lotus. Raikkonen and Grojean have been more impressive in 10 races than Vettel has his entire career.

Vettel has won more races and championships than Raikkonen and Grosjean combined, despite Raikkonen having been in the sport for longer.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 43):
Seems to me that Vettel is suffering from a case of sour grapes that McLaren effectively used Hamilton and his superior pace at that point to keep Button in contention and eventually claim 2nd from him. Red Bull would have done the same if they were in that position.

I agree it's legitimate team tactics, and I agree Red Bull would've done the same.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 43):
But then Vettel went and blatantly cheated to 'take' 2nd and cried foul again that he was pushed off the track when he clearly wasn't and even if he was JB was rightly defending his position. No dice Seb. All he's talented at is blaming everyone else.

Blatantly cheated? He went around the outside of Button, then went wide as he didn't want to risk a collision. He did not cut the corner, he did the opposite of that. As for "blaming everyone else", he answered a question directly posed to him by one of the journalists, who asked specifically what impact Hamilton's move to unlap himself had on Vettel's race. Vettel answered the question he was asked, it's as simple as that!

Quoting scbriml (Reply 45):
I call BS! He knew exactly where Button was, they went round the hairpin side by side.

Have you seen out of the side of the cockpit of an F1 car lately?
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting sudden (Reply 35):
Ok, Vettel is fast, no question about it, but he really acts like like a child as soon as things does not go his way. Yes, other drivers might do this, and as stated earlier, Hamilton used to be the same. Massa was/is still like this.

And Alonso used to be like that. But he has become better with time

Quoting racko (Reply 38):
It was McLaren, the team that always points their fingers at Ferrari and others for team orders, playing team games. Hamilton had only one job in the race, help Button by delaying Vettel (and Alonso, but that didn't work out because Alonso was warned after they had pulled the stunt on Vettel)

I agree, but although I don't like what LH did, it is within the rules. Team orders are again legal, (something I fully agree with) and they used them to their advantage
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