bjorn14
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Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:01 pm

The NCAA acting quickly in the wake of Freeh Report handed out the following penalties:

$60MM fine

4-year bowl ban

Loss of 10 scholarships per year for 4 years

Vacated all of JoePa's wins since 1998 (He now has 298 wins)

Allows athletes to transfer to other schools without penalty.

5 years probation.

Reserves the right to add more penalties in the wake of continuing legal investigations.

Do you think this is fair?
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WestJet747
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
$60MM fine

...to be paid to an endowment fund supporting child abuse victim programs.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Loss of 10 scholarships per year for 4 years

It's actually 20 scholarships per year for 4 years.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Allows athletes to transfer to other schools without penalty.

This is the only one I disagree with. They didn't give Penn State the death penalty, so why would they include this? It's a pointless escape clause for players.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Do you think this is fair?

Yep. Especially the $60M because it actually directly helps the victims. Good call by the NCAA to include this.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 1):

It's actually 20 scholarships per year for 4 years.

No, 20 total. Like, 20 players that would be on scholarship for 4-5 years, won't be, when all is said and done.
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BMI727
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Do you think this is fair?

They did a lot but not enough. Nothing short of the death penalty for several years is appropriate here in order to completely and utterly destroy the culture that made it possible for this to happen.

Already you have players using the punishment as a rallying cry and "motivation," which is completely missing the point. They could win every game next season and there would be no real healing. Nobody would be unraped. The death penalty was necessary to swiftly and decisively smash such thinking and keep the focus where it should be.
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WestJet747
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 2):
No, 20 total. Like, 20 players that would be on scholarship for 4-5 years, won't be, when all is said and done.

That's not what TSN.ca is saying:

Quote:
INDIANAPOLIS -- The NCAA slammed Penn State with an unprecedented series of penalties Monday, including a $60 million fine and the loss of all coach Joe Paterno's victories from 1998-2011, in the wake of the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse scandal.

Other sanctions include a four-year ban on bowl games, the loss of 20 scholarships per year over four years and five years' probation. The NCAA also said that any current or incoming football players are free to immediately transfer and compete at another school.

(Bold is my emphasis)

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Nobody would be unraped.

Agreed, but even with your suggestion, nobody would be "unraped". At the end of the day, nothing can undo it unfortunately.
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Ken777
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
$60MM fine

This is one I disagree with. The money will either reduce scholarships for poorer students, or will be paid by the taxpayers so those kids can still get their scholarships. It has long seemed to me that the NCAA is a bit blind to the situation students from lower incomes face and this just highlights that disconnect. I wonder what the salaries are for those on the NCAA committee who came up with the $60 Million.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
4-year bowl ban

Not a big deal. In keeping with the NCAA approach of punishing the students this pretty well is expected.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Loss of 10 scholarships per year for 4 years

Another punishment for students not involved in the abuses - typical of the NCAA to take money away from poorer students.

Like the $60 million fine, this one shows me the the NCAA, with all their brilliant minds, cannot think of a punishment that doesn't lower a schools ability to bring in students from lower income areas.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Vacated all of JoePa's wins since 1998 (He now has 298 wins)

I could care less about this one. Any player who lost a game to Penn State will know they lost, just like those who beat them will remember that game.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Allows athletes to transfer to other schools without penalty.

Not a bad decision here as the NCAA is causing these students a lot of misery right now. Not as much as the previous coaches did, but the NCAA is going to cause pain.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Reserves the right to add more penalties in the wake of continuing legal investigations.

This one bothers me. The NCAA has acted exceptionally quick (for them) and now needs to stand back and let the courts operate without their interference.

The interesting issue for me is the question of the NCAA getting involved and financially benefitting by the $60 million. They now seem to be part of the "chain of command" and, as such, might well be added to civil lawsuits. Especially with that $60 million that the victims trial lawyers can go after. The old saying "sue them all" may well bring the NCAA under that legal umbrella. Who's to say that the NCAA didn't look the other way for the past 12 years?
 
ouboy79
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 4):
That's not what TSN.ca is saying:

Try: http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoot...state-hit-with-crippling-penalties

Quote:
INDIANAPOLIS -- Penn State football was hit with a four-year postseason ban, the loss of 40 scholarships over four years and a $60 million fine as a result of the cover up in the Jerry Sandusky scandal.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
This is one I disagree with. The money will either reduce scholarships for poorer students, or will be paid by the taxpayers so those kids can still get their scholarships. It has long seemed to me that the NCAA is a bit blind to the situation students from lower incomes face and this just highlights that disconnect. I wonder what the salaries are for those on the NCAA committee who came up with the $60 Million.

The $60M essentially equates to the income of the football program per year. It is meant to eliminate it for one year.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
This one bothers me. The NCAA has acted exceptionally quick (for them) and now needs to stand back and let the courts operate without their interference.

This was done using a new clause allowing the President of the NCAA to inflict his own sanctions without regard to a typical NCAA investigation. They'll still conduct that and issue additional penalties if needed when that concludes.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
The interesting issue for me is the question of the NCAA getting involved and financially benefitting by the $60 million.

You did bother to read that the $60M is going to a charity that helps kids that are victims of sex abuse right?
 
D L X
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 1):
t's a pointless escape clause for players.

Why? What did the players have to do with this? This stuff happened in 2001, when these players (all ranging 17-22 in age) were not even in middle school.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Nothing short of the death penalty for several years is appropriate here in order to completely and utterly destroy the culture that made it possible for this to happen.

At some point, it's just vindictive and pointless. "The death penalty for several years?" You don't come back after the death penalty. See for example, SMU.

The death penalty, just as in real life, encourages people who have done severe wrongs to either continue doing them or cover them up instead of come clean and seek absolution.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 4):
Agreed, but even with your suggestion, nobody would be "unraped".

  

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Do you think this is fair?

Yes. Paterno and others inside the program helped cover up the crime. Now that these facts have been exposed, it's hard to see the punishment as unfair.

My question is only why only Football was punished, when it appears that the entire athletic department and school were in cover up mode.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
This is one I disagree with. The money will either reduce scholarships for poorer students, or will be paid by the taxpayers so those kids can still get their scholarships. It has long seemed to me that the NCAA is a bit blind to the situation students from lower incomes face and this just highlights that disconnect. I wonder what the salaries are for those on the NCAA committee who came up with the $60 Million.

I don't see a problem with it. They said that $60M is approximately what PSU makes in gross revenue from football operations in a year. Every penny of that will go to supporting victim groups.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Another punishment for students not involved in the abuses - typical of the NCAA to take money away from poorer students.

This would impact incoming athletes. Any football player who is being looked at by PSU is most definitely getting scholarship offers from other schools as well. No harm done here.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
The NCAA has acted exceptionally quick

They had to act before the upcoming season.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 6):

I guess TSN has it wrong. Here is the excerpt from the official NCAA decision:

Quote:
For a period of four years commencing with the 2013-2014 academic year and expiring at the conclusion of the 2016-2017 academic year, the NCAA imposes a limit of 15 initial grants-in-aid (from a maximum of 25 allowed) and for a period of four years commencing with the 2014-2015 academic year and expiring at the conclusion of the 2017-2018 academic year a limit of 65 total grants-in-aid (from a maximum of 85 allowed) for football during each of those specified years. In the event the total number of grants-in-aid drops below 65, the University may award grants-in-aid to non-scholarship student-athletes who have been members of the football program as allowed under Bylaw 15.5.6.3.6.
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BMI727
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 4):
Agreed, but even with your suggestion, nobody would be "unraped". At the end of the day, nothing can undo it unfortunately.

The problem is that they are setting up a very wrong and damaging narrative within the team, fans, and media for the upcoming season. They're going to play the "everyone is against us" motivation card and look to winning as healing when it is actually nothing of the sort and is likely actually a damaging influence. When the Saints got good again and we had to hear all about how great that was in the wake of Katrina was just annoying. Here the same sort of sentiment will do little to make sure that this cannot happen again.

Penn State needs to not play for a few years to send a big helping of collective guilt at the fans and program that are responsible for allowing the environment to exist and hit the reset button on the program. They need to take a break and start over in a few years.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
The money will either reduce scholarships for poorer students, or will be paid by the taxpayers so those kids can still get their scholarships.

The money would be paid out in civil lawsuits. The victims just got a small advance on their damages.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Another punishment for students not involved in the abuses - typical of the NCAA to take money away from poorer students.

You have to hit them where it hurts and that is where it hurts. Not to mention that if you have a football scholarship to Penn State, then you are obviously good enough to have a football scholarship at pretty much everywhere else but a handful of schools. It isn't much of an obstacle to players really interested in an education, which few likely are.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
This one bothers me. The NCAA has acted exceptionally quick (for them) and now needs to stand back and let the courts operate without their interference.

The NCAA levied the penalties based on the Freeh report that Penn State commissioned and accepts. (Along with every other reasonable human being. There are a few deniers out there)
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BMI727
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
At some point, it's just vindictive and pointless. "The death penalty for several years?" You don't come back after the death penalty. See for example, SMU.

They used the program to cover up the rape of children. It should be addressed with extreme prejudice.

You cannot have a situation where it's "We'll just do some renovations and see you next year." There needs to be a nice long timeout and cooling off period for everyone, plus to allow the various investigations to take their course. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg.
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luckyone
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
My question is only why only Football was punished, when it appears that the entire athletic department and school were in cover up mode.

That can probably be answered with the below statement:

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Reserves the right to add more penalties in the wake of continuing legal investigations.

More is probably coming, including further fines and punishments against the school by the respective bodies of the State of Pennsylvania and quite possibly the federal government. Then there is the bevy of civil lawsuits that will surely go in the victims' favor.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:22 pm

If this had come out when it was supposed to back in 2002, JoePa would have surely lost his job. He was in the middle of the worst 4-year W-L (2000-4, 26-37)period of his tenure. Fans were putting up websites like fireJoePa.com.
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D L X
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
At some point, it's just vindictive and pointless. "The death penalty for several years?" You don't come back after the death penalty. See for example, SMU.

They used the program to cover up the rape of children. It should be addressed with extreme prejudice.

You cannot have a situation where it's "We'll just do some renovations and see you next year." There needs to be a nice long timeout and cooling off period for everyone, plus to allow the various investigations to take their course. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg.

You really didn't understand what I said.

The "death penalty" destroys the program forever. That is vindictive. It does not fix any of the wrongs that have occurred.

These punishments handed out are severely costly. Penn State might find itself no longer in the Big Ten in a year. All their athletes are going to bolt for other schools. Look at the much lighter punishments Michigan basketball faced about 8-9 years ago. Just losing their scholarships and postseason eligibility for a couple years crippled the program for 10+ years.

It will be at least 10 years before Penn State football is relevant again, and even then, they will only be relevant. They may never be dominant again, and will likely not see even one twentieth of the revenue they used to. You might think that is simply just (and I'm not saying it is unjust), but who is that going to hurt most? The students. The students will pay a price for the inaction of adults.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:28 pm

Personally I believe they should have shut down the football program completely for 5 or so years.

There were terrible institutional problems at Penn and its football program. Allowing to remain in business is an error.
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rfields5421
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:28 pm

The Big Ten has added additional sanctions.

Penn State cannot play in the Big Ten championship game for four years - no matter what their record.

Penn State will not receive the normal share of bowl game revenue for four years - about a $15 million per year penalty.

The only thing which bothers me about this series of penalties is I see no sanctions for the individuals in the program and school named in the internal investigation.

Any football coaches or athletic staff named in the interal investigation should be banned from any NCAA activities/ sports for four years, and any school administration officials should also be banned, or any schools which employ them for four years. Yes, I know most are retired. I don't care if anyone loses a career or retirement. They should be going to jail.

But possibly such individual sanctions require some more documentation of their wrongdoing. Maybe later we will see those.

One other thing I'd like to see - no Penn State football on TV or radio for the four years.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
They used the program to cover up the rape of children. It should be addressed with extreme prejudice.

You cannot have a situation where it's "We'll just do some renovations and see you next year." There needs to be a nice long timeout and cooling off period for everyone, plus to allow the various investigations to take their course. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg.

So take it out on everyone, even those not invoived? That is above and beyond cruel and unusual punishment. The people most responsible are dead or in jail or in court, and not at the university anymore.
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bjorn14
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 17):
The people most responsible are dead or in jail or in court, and not at the university anymore.

No, fmr. President Spanier (he of wife-swapping Ph.D. dissertation fame) is still on the faculty in the Human Development dept. at PSU. and AD Curley is on paid administrative leave while awaiting trial.
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luckyone
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 17):
So take it out on everyone, even those not invoived? That is above and beyond cruel and unusual punishment. The people most responsible are dead or in jail or in court, and not at the university anymore.

Everyone at the university participated, creating the culture that a) a blasted game mattered so much and b) that winning was more important than people. It's not unique to Penn State. It just finally went too too far at Penn State. I quit my university's team (with a winning record, so it's not sour grapes) because I did not want to be associated with things far more benign than anything that has happened at Penn State. I have been in many discussions over the years with friends and family about the dangers of letting one thing become so important that everything else becomes important and what the "good" players and people in charge are allowed to get away with. This is a shot fired across the bow of every collegiate athletic program in the country that priorities need to be reevaluated, policies need to be changed, and it SHOULD (but won't be) a notice to fans and athletes that there are more important things in life.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 17):
So take it out on everyone, even those not invoived? That is above and beyond cruel and unusual punishment. The people most responsible are dead or in jail or in court, and not at the university anymore.

"Beyond cruel and unusual?" To take away the ability to play in championship games is tantamount to extreme pain? Really?

You also posit the notion that it affects the lives of so many innocent people who are not involved. But that's looking at it narrowly. The whole line of thinking behind these sanctions is to disrupt - and hopefully eliminate - a culture that quashed allegations of serious crimes through denial, inaction, bullyism or direct interference with the situation. Do you have any idea how many death threats the young men and boys who made these charges received?

This is a university community that regards their football team as a high, holy religion and Joe Paterno as their savior.

I think a "reset" is in order.
 
Ken777
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Nothing short of the death penalty for several years is appropriate here in order to completely and utterly destroy the culture that made it possible for this to happen.
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 7):
The $60M essentially equates to the income of the football program per year.

So without that money where will the school get the funds that would have gone to non-athletic activities, like scholarships?

There is no free ride and students & employes outside the athletic department will be paying a big chunk of that $60 million, as well as the money that civil actions take from the school.

There is more to Penn State than football and the NCAA is effectively diminishing the non-athletic parts of the school as well as the athletic area.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 7):
You did bother to read that the $60M is going to a charity that helps kids that are victims of sex abuse right?

And the trial lawyers will have every right to go after those funds for their clients who were victims. My bet is that the NCAA will now be seen as a target to include in the suits against the school. There should be no way that the NCAA can hide the money from the victims.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 7):
They'll still conduct that and issue additional penalties if needed when that concludes.

DO we really need that? This entire situation is a huge can of worms and I believe that the courts (both criminal and civil) should be the ones straightening the situations out with vigorous decisions.

The NCAA, IMO, is simply getting in with a "me too" attitude.

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
Yes. Paterno and others inside the program helped cover up the crime. Now that these facts have been exposed, it's hard to see the punishment as unfair.

When the punishment impacts the innocent students and faculty without punishing the individuals who caused the problem then it is fair to consider it as unfair.

You want fair punishment? First, don't do anything that will assist defense attorneys in courts. Second, ban those involved from university employment. 'm talking from the President down.

But you are not going to see that because the members of the NCAA know that they could be in the target some time in the future. So you have a bunch of PhD's protecting their positions with disregard to simple students who want to go to college.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
They said that $60M is approximately what PSU makes in gross revenue from football operations in a year. Every penny of that will go to supporting victim groups

And how much will be taken from academic scholarships? Penn State, IMO, has long been one of those schools where students from average to low income homes can go and get a good education. It's not the rich kids school and the money that the NCAA is pulling out of the school is going to negatively impact these kids. ANother situation of the NCAA punishing the innocent whole leaving the guilty alone.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
No harm done here.

Of course there is, unless the NCAA allows "other schools" to have extra scholarships equal to the loss at Penn State.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
They had to act before the upcoming season.

Bull. They should have waited until all criminal court cases are tried and a jury decision is reached. There was no need to stick their nose under the tent at this time, especially if you want the criminal system to move forward without interference.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
as allowed under Bylaw 15.5.6.3.6.

Geez, that is simply in indication of the depth that the NCAA is controlling schools. My bet is that the documents covering bylaws, policies and procedures is far larger than Obama's Health Care Reform Bill.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
The money would be paid out in civil lawsuits. The victims just got a small advance on their damages.

Or the NCAA will try to keep the funds in some isolated account so they can pay themselves money to administer it.

Maybe some smart trial lawyers will get an injunction freezing the money in a Penn State account until all civil litigation by the victims are settled.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
You have to hit them where it hurts and that is where it hurts.

If you are going to do that you need to address the specific individuals causing the problems. THe NCAA should ban coaches and other employees involved in an infraction for X number of years, or permanently. I actually have no problem with the NCAA banning employees (up to the President and Board members) as well as coaches.

In the Penn State matter, the court is clearly taking care of the rapist. JoePa is dead, but I can see the lawyers going after part of his estate. Others in the school have been terminated, some have been arrested and investigations are on-going. Those that are left to punish should be punished as an individual. Otherwise you give people the ability to hide within the school.

That is a far different approach than the NCAA imposing a strong punishment on the entire student body. I believe that efforts to punish the student both as a whole diminish the school and its ability to serve the state.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 20):
You also posit the notion that it affects the lives of so many innocent people who are not involved. But that's looking at it narrowly. The whole line of thinking behind these sanctions is to disrupt - and hopefully eliminate - a culture that quashed allegations of serious crimes through denial, inaction, bullyism or direct interference with the situation. Do you have any idea how many death threats the young men and boys who made these charges received?

Narrowly? You are looking at in such a manner that anyone that has ever stepped foot on Penn St is guilty by association.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
Everyone at the university participated, creating the culture t

You all basically saying anyone who ever went to the college is guilty by association? That is too broad.
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luckyone
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
You all basically saying anyone who ever went to the college is guilty by association? That is too broad.

Perhaps. But I do know this: it took more than the administration to make this a problem, most of them unknowingly but they participated nonetheless. It took fans (what is strangest of all to me is that most of them never attended Penn State). It took students. So I will revise my statement from EVERYBODY to a great many people at the university over the years. I still don't think the punishment was too harsh. People need to be aware of what can happen when they support something so blindly and without perspective. Watching the students and fans cry and whine about a coward and criminal makes me sick.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 23):
I still don't think the punishment was too harsh. People need to be aware of what can happen when they support something so blindly and without perspective. Watching the students and fans cry and whine about a coward and criminal makes me sick.

Well said! And to add to it, I don't buy it that banning Penn State from participating in championships and cutting back their scholarships constitutes "punishment" to their fans.

Again, sometimes you have to hit the reset button and start over to eradicate what is obviously an entire culture of football worship (whether or not it was every single member of the community) that enables people to look past horrible crimes. And sometimes you have to make a statement that our society, some crimes are heinous and unforgivable.
 
luckyone
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 24):
I don't buy it that banning Penn State from participating in championships and cutting back their scholarships constitutes "punishment" to their fans.

On the contrary, I think it's the fans that need some of the punishment...We have a monster in the form of athletic church.

[Edited 2012-07-23 10:36:13]
 
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
These punishments handed out are severely costly. Penn State might find itself no longer in the Big Ten in a year. All their athletes are going to bolt for other schools. Look at the much lighter punishments Michigan basketball faced about 8-9 years ago. Just losing their scholarships and postseason eligibility for a couple years crippled the program for 10+ years.

It will be at least 10 years before Penn State football is relevant again, and even then, they will only be relevant. They may never be dominant again, and will likely not see even one twentieth of the revenue they used to. You might think that is simply just (and I'm not saying it is unjust), but who is that going to hurt most? The students. The students will pay a price for the inaction of adults.

I'm not shedding any tears. Students --> go get a BA, enjoy your education, attend another intercollegiate sport.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
Everyone at the university participated, creating the culture that a) a blasted game mattered so much and b) that winning was more important than people. It's not unique to Penn State. It just finally went too too far at Penn State.

   Exactly. It will be interesting to find if other universities find greater self-scrutiny of their athletic programs, or if they'll try harder to cover it up.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
Narrowly? You are looking at in such a manner that anyone that has ever stepped foot on Penn St is guilty by association.

Have you seen the pro-Paterno student protests? (non-athletes, mind you) Heard the alumni denial? (Franco Harris is an insensitive shill, BTW.) Colleagues I know at Penn State say it's not a universal, but still pretty depressing the outcry and misdirected angst going on today and the past couple weeks. It's a vast, cult-like society that needs some serious intervention. Not sure if what was meted out today was serious intervention enough.

-Rampart
 
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 23):
I will revise my statement from EVERYBODY to a great many people at the university over the years. I still don't think the punishment was too harsh. People need to be aware of what can happen when they support something so blindly and without perspective. Watching the students and fans cry and whine about a coward and criminal makes me sick.

The scholarship cutting may affect games won and lost. But in many cases, especially with Penn state , the end punishment isn't with Penn State, it is with the collegiate athelertes at the bottom of the rung that never wanted to attend Penn State, never will, probably at a Level 2 or 3 institution but their scholarships got cut so that those that would have gone to Penn State go to another schoo
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:36 pm

It's rather strange. I'm currently working at Penn State and if it weren't for the news, I'd say nothing is happening here. I did notice, however, the mural had been modified. You can still make out the halo over Paterno's head if you're close enough, but the statue is something I won't get to see.
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D L X
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
Yes. Paterno and others inside the program helped cover up the crime. Now that these facts have been exposed, it's hard to see the punishment as unfair.

When the punishment impacts the innocent students and faculty without punishing the individuals who caused the problem then it is fair to consider it as unfair.

You want fair punishment? First, don't do anything that will assist defense attorneys in courts. Second, ban those involved from university employment. 'm talking from the President down.

Whoa, hold up, Ken.

We're talking about what the NCAA can and should do against the school. The NCAA controls nothing more than athletics. It cannot tell a university who it can and cannot employ, much less ban someone from employment. All it can do (and did) was sanction participation in NCAA events.

I can kick you out of my house for doing bad stuff, but I can't kick you out of, say, casinterest's house. (Though he may on his own.)
 
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
The "death penalty" destroys the program forever. That is vindictive. It does not fix any of the wrongs that have occurred.

This program does need to be destroyed forever to make sure that it can never happen again.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
It will be at least 10 years before Penn State football is relevant again, and even then, they will only be relevant.

You don't just need to destroy relevance in the world of college football, you also need to destroy relevance to the fans and community that allowed Paterno the power to cover up rape.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...7c2ehQkyU6H2eU&bctid=1749935889001
http://instagram.com/p/NbgUIjS6ca/
Look at the video of reactions and the sign: they don't get it! These people bury their head in the sand or just don't understand that the rape of children is more important than football. They don't care that Paterno covered up heinous crimes against kids, just football. That's why they deserve punishment.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
If you are going to do that you need to address the specific individuals causing the problems. THe NCAA should ban coaches and other employees involved in an infraction for X number of years, or permanently. I actually have no problem with the NCAA banning employees (up to the President and Board members) as well as coaches.

They'll do that too, they left the door open for it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
In the Penn State matter, the court is clearly taking care of the rapist.

The local clowns might still be looking to bury the whole thing, but the adults (Feds) are coming and will do a real investigation with real charges. And that could get ugly.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
That is a far different approach than the NCAA imposing a strong punishment on the entire student body.

Look at the reaction! They don't get that football is less important than rape.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
I believe that efforts to punish the student both as a whole diminish the school and its ability to serve the state.

They absolutely deserve some punishment. And giving the football program the death penalty is going diminish their ability to serve the state? Really? We're talking about football. They didn't seem to have much trouble serving the state while operating a rape factory, so I'm sure they can educate well enough without football.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
You all basically saying anyone who ever went to the college is guilty by association? That is too broad.

They are. Not in a criminal sense, but their valuation of football and hero worship is what created an environment that made it possible for rape to be covered up.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 23):
Perhaps. But I do know this: it took more than the administration to make this a problem, most of them unknowingly but they participated nonetheless. It took fans (what is strangest of all to me is that most of them never attended Penn State). It took students. So I will revise my statement from EVERYBODY to a great many people at the university over the years. I still don't think the punishment was too harsh. People need to be aware of what can happen when they support something so blindly and without perspective. Watching the students and fans cry and whine about a coward and criminal makes me sick.

Absolutely right. They basically need denazification on the whole thing and clean people out. They need to understand collective guilt before they go back to football.

Quoting rampart (Reply 26):
(Franco Harris is an insensitive shill, BTW.)

The man is an idiot. He's out there looking for the truth about Paterno, but so far all he's found is two yetis, a sasquatch, and Jimmy Hoffa.

Quoting rampart (Reply 26):
Colleagues I know at Penn State say it's not a universal,

Then where are these people? Every time the Penn Staters do something stupid people say "they aren't all like that" but most of the good people are really, really quiet. If you want credit for being one of the good people, say something. Ken Frazier and LaVar Arrington have stepped up and taken the right steps, but at the same time you have the morons in the student center and board members trying to posthumously rehire Paterno.
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luckyone
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 27):
The scholarship cutting may affect games won and lost. But in many cases, especially with Penn state , the end punishment isn't with Penn State, it is with the collegiate athelertes at the bottom of the rung that never wanted to attend Penn State, never will, probably at a Level 2 or 3 institution but their scholarships got cut so that those that would have gone to Penn State go to another schoo

I do agree, to a point. Most players at those smaller schools will not be on scholarship. Some will be on partial (and not many at that), but those schools do not have the budgets that a Penn State does to fund full scholarships.
Having said that, I think the players take blame here, too, and I don't think existing players should be allowed a scott-free transfer.
 
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:20 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
One other thing I'd like to see - no Penn State football on TV or radio for the four years.

   Sounds about right.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
So without that money where will the school get the funds that would have gone to non-athletic activities, like scholarships?

There is no free ride and students & employes outside the athletic department will be paying a big chunk of that $60 million, as well as the money that civil actions take from the school.

There is more to Penn State than football and the NCAA is effectively diminishing the non-athletic parts of the school as well as the athletic area.

Maybe things work differently down in Pennsylvania, but where I'm from, profits from the football team don't fund the entire school, nor do they fund scholarships for non-athletes.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
Bull. They should have waited until all criminal court cases are tried and a jury decision is reached. There was no need to stick their nose under the tent at this time, especially if you want the criminal system to move forward without interference.

So you are suggesting that they should be able to play another season and rake in all the profits before action is taken? That seems like a bit of a slap in the face to those affected by this.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
This program does need to be destroyed forever to make sure that it can never happen again.

Oh yes, I'm sure if we allow them to play football again the new coaches will go start raping boys again. Please... 
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
If you want credit for being one of the good people, say something.

Why should anyone have to announce anything? The good people shouldn't have to protect themselves from sweeping generalizations by you.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 31):
I think the players take blame here, too, and I don't think existing players should be allowed a scott-free transfer.

If the players didn't know what was going on, then why should they be blamed? They were there to play football, and that's what they did.
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
My question is only why only Football was punished, when it appears that the entire athletic department and school were in cover up mode.

Football pays for the other athletic programs at Penn State and pretty much every other college in the US that fields a football team. That $60 million will affect the other sports teams at Penn State as well.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
The "death penalty" destroys the program forever. That is vindictive. It does not fix any of the wrongs that have occurred.

These punishments handed out are severely costly. Penn State might find itself no longer in the Big Ten in a year. All their athletes are going to bolt for other schools. Look at the much lighter punishments Michigan basketball faced about 8-9 years ago. Just losing their scholarships and postseason eligibility for a couple years crippled the program for 10+ years.

It will be at least 10 years before Penn State football is relevant again, and even then, they will only be relevant. They may never be dominant again, and will likely not see even one twentieth of the revenue they used to. You might think that is simply just (and I'm not saying it is unjust), but who is that going to hurt most? The students. The students will pay a price for the inaction of adults.

Look at SMU. Their football program got the Death Penalty in 1987 (the program was already on probation at the time, and had been on probation five times between 1974 and 1985 for recruiting violations and illegal player perks) and they had the entire 1987 season cancelled, the 1988 season was canceled by the college as they were unable to field a team (Originally the NCAA stripped them of home games for that season.). They were stripped of scholarships, had their bowl ban as well as live TV ban extended to 1989. They were also stripped of coaching positions as well as having their recruiting rights severely curtailed. The SMU program returned in 1989 and it took them 20 years to recover and actually make it to a bowl game. The death penalty issued to SMU is also attributed to the demise of the old Southwest Conference, as the SMU live TV ban hurt the other teams in the conference as well and cut the TV revenues that the schools got. This is why Arkansas left for the SEC in 1990 and Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor and Texas Tech left the conference in 1996.

The NCAA is extremely reluctant to issue the Death Penalty since SMU because the effects were so severe. The penalties the NCAA handed out to Penn State are very harsh and stop short of the death penalty. However, you can say that Penn State football is dead for the next 5-10 years, as the prestige of the program is tarnished and there are not going to be too many players interested in playing for a team that cannot play in any bowl games for the next four seasons. This will also have far-reaching implications for the other sports programs at Penn State as well.
 
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:24 pm

I think the punishment was just about right. From what most sports reporters are saying, they think the loss of scholarships is actually more detrimental to the football program than if they had gotten the death penalty. This could keep them down for 10-12 years. While you can use the example that SMU has still not recovered, they are different. I think that a big state school with a storied history can get over the death penalty much faster than a small private school without one. I think this is much worse than a 1 year death penalty.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
So without that money where will the school get the funds that would have gone to non-athletic activities, like scholarships?

Why do you think that football money goes to support non-athletic activities? Most schools operate athletics as a stand alone cost center. Almost every sport loses money with the exception of football and basketball. Most of the money goes to pay salaries, stadiums, administrative costs, and for the continuation of non-revenue generating sports.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
Of course there is, unless the NCAA allows "other schools" to have extra scholarships equal to the loss at Penn State.

I heard on the radio they are going to allow that.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
The interesting issue for me is the question of the NCAA getting involved and financially benefiting by the $60 million. They now seem to be part of the "chain of command" and, as such, might well be added to civil lawsuits.

Not sure how the NCAA financially benefits. They said all this money is going to victims and prevention programs.

I think that where the biggest damage done to non-athletics programs is going to come from civil lawsuits from victims directly against the school above and beyond the $60m. Not to mention the mess when dozens more people show up and say it happened to them too - many of them falsely.

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Vacated all of JoePa's wins since 1998 (He now has 298 wins)

Proper way of knocking down his legacy a bit, since this now makes him no longer the coach with the most wins in history.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 18):
No, fmr. President Spanier (he of wife-swapping Ph.D. dissertation fame) is still on the faculty in the Human Development dept. at PSU. and AD Curley is on paid administrative leave while awaiting trial.

I don't expect that to last for long.

The person who seems to have gotten off so far is Mike McQuery. Yes he reported it up the chain of the command, but when he saw nothing happen he did not take it to the proper authorities. I expect him to get fired and do some minor jail time for failure to report a crime.
 
BMI727
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Oh yes, I'm sure if we allow them to play football again the new coaches will go start raping boys again. Please... 

...and I'm sure if we'd just let the Germans go back to business as usual they wouldn't have elected another genocidal maniac...

The point is that you have to completely wipe out the culture that allowed this to happen first to make an example of them and secondly to ensure it can never happen again.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Why should anyone have to announce anything?

They don't, but then I don't want to hear people saying "we aren't all like Franco Harris and the kids at the statue." If you think rape is bad, but not quite bad enough to say anything then you aren't much better. If you don't want to be lumped in with the group you'd better do something to distinguish yourself.
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bjorn14
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
When the punishment impacts the innocent students and faculty

Lots of things in life affect 'innocent' people. I would bet that a large percentage of faculty and students went to Penn State based on the prestige that the football team created. They willingly came to worship at the altar. Is it fair for kids of a alcoholic father to be homeless 'cuz Dad can't hold a job because of alcoholism? Something the kids had nothing to do with?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
luckyone
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
If the players didn't know what was going on, then why should they be blamed? They were there to play football, and that's what they did.

It's not that simple. The system is so political the players have a part. The top guys participate in the recruiting frenzy, they make requests, they have their own demands. They participated in the entitlement, rule-bending culture. They took the perks, they took the special treatment above and beyond just "playing football." The problem is not just child molesting. Jerry Sandusky would have most likely raped boys anyway, probably been caught much earlier and jailed a long time ago along with many other child molesting sleazeballs had he not had the affiliation he did. The problem is the entitlement culture of athletics where people are worshiped for their ability to throw a ball, that then allowed this terrible, terrible thing to be basically be university sanctioned. Were I a Pennsylvania tax payer I would be enraged right now. Like I've said, the blame goes all around here, and everybody needs to swallow their share. Fans, players, coaches, school administration, board of trustees, everybody.

[Edited 2012-07-23 12:38:48]

[Edited 2012-07-23 12:42:14]

[Edited 2012-07-23 12:44:24]
 
WestJet747
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting corocks (Reply 34):
this now makes him no longer the coach with the most wins in history.

My knowledge of college football history is failing me at the moment. Who has the most now with Paterno being knocked down a peg?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
...and I'm sure if we'd just let the Germans go back to business as usual they wouldn't have elected another genocidal maniac...

First of all, I think it's unfair to compare the Holocaust to the Penn State fiasco. They're just on two totally different levels.

But I'll go with it anyway: the fault in your comparison is that during WWII, many of the German people knew some shady things were going on, but were willfully ignorant to it. In the Penn State case, I don't think any player/student/fan knew what was going on behind closed doors. Yet you want to levy equal blame.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
If you think rape is bad, but not quite bad enough to say anything then you aren't much better.

I completely disagree! Just because you don't vocalize your opinion, it doesn't put you on the same level as the supporters! How you come this conclusion is mind-boggling.   
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Mir
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 17):
So take it out on everyone, even those not invoived? That is above and beyond cruel and unusual punishment. The people most responsible are dead or in jail or in court, and not at the university anymore.


The culture of glorification of football contributed to Paterno's ability to sweep things under the rug. It clearly still persists at the university in a some form, and it needs to be wiped out.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
You might think that is simply just (and I'm not saying it is unjust), but who is that going to hurt most? The students. The students will pay a price for the inaction of adults.

So they don't have football games to go to. Big freaking deal. They can grow up and find something else to occupy their time with (perhaps even some academic stuff). There is more to college than just sports. And the people who are reasonable and sensible about all of this wouldn't care if the program were shut down for a year or two. Or they might care, but they'd understand why it needed to be done.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
Then where are these people? Every time the Penn Staters do something stupid people say "they aren't all like that" but most of the good people are really, really quiet.

Why is it their responsibility to say anything? Why do they have to defend themselves, when we should all know that Penn State is a decent academic institution, and that the probability that a majority of the student body believes that Paterno has been done a disservice is miniscule.

FWIW, I do listen to sports radio in the NYC area, and there have been numerous callers over the time this story has been in the news who are not supportive of Paterno, and are not happy about they way some of the students have continued to lionize him.

Quoting corocks (Reply 34):
Proper way of knocking down his legacy a bit, since this now makes him no longer the coach with the most wins in history.

It shouldn't have been done, IMO. History happened. Vacating wins doesn't change that. Anyone who sees Paterno's name in the record books is going to know his story, and anyone who hears his name is going to think "child sex scandal" before "winningest coach in college football history". They won't even need to put an asterisk next to his name in the record books.

-Mir
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bjorn14
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 33):
Their football program got the Death Penalty in 1987

IIRC the NCAA handed SMU some severe sanctions and it was SMU who said we'll just impose the death penalty ourselves.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
BMI727
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 38):
First of all, I think it's unfair to compare the Holocaust to the Penn State fiasco. They're just on two totally different levels.

The scale of suffering is, but the same mechanisms are at work. There absolutely is blame to be placed on those who participate in a culture that allows such atrocities to happen. And such a culture needs to be cut off at the knees.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 38):
In the Penn State case, I don't think any player/student/fan knew what was going on behind closed doors.

Look at the reactions! People congregated on Paterno's lawn, lined up around the block near the statue and are becoming Freeh report truthers. Do you really think that if those people had known that they would have done anything at all?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 38):
I completely disagree! Just because you don't vocalize your opinion, it doesn't put you on the same level as the supporters!

You can't say you aren't part of a group when you do nothing to distinguish yourself from said group. Being against rape is only controversial in Pennsylvania.

Oddly enough, not a minute after I wrote my last post a history teacher called a sports radio show I was listening too. He said that these sanctions are the Treaty of Versailles. You take some money, you take some firepower, but do nothing to stop the culture. They just come back with an "us against the world" mentality, because apparently the world is wrong for being anti-rape.
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rfields5421
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
History happened. Vacating wins doesn't change that.

It isn't like they said the wins were invalid because of ineligible players, etc.

Taking away wins as punishment is like saying the General Robert E. Lee won the Battle of Gettysburg because General Meade facilitated some illegal activity in Pennslyvania after the war.

Paterno's teams won the games fair and square.

This part of the 'penalty' is stupid and childish.
 
srbmod
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 38):
Who has the most now with Paterno being knocked down a peg?

The late Eddie Robinson of Grambling University holds the Division I record (Division I/Football Bowl Series and Division I-AA/Football Championship Series combined) with 408 wins. Bobby Bowden formerly of Florida State holds the Division I/Football Bowl Series record with 377 wins. None of them are even close to the all-time college win record held by John Gagliardi, the coach of Division III Saint John's University (Minnesota), who has 484 wins and is still an active coach (He's been the head coach at Saint John's since 1953.).


Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 40):
IIRC the NCAA handed SMU some severe sanctions and it was SMU who said we'll just impose the death penalty ourselves.

Not the case. In the wake of today's NCAA actions against Penn State, the Dallas Morning News reprinted their article from 1987 when SMU got the death penalty.

SMU Mustangs
Flashback: SMU gets NCAA 'death penalty'; Worse than Penn State?


SMU did scrap the 1988 football season several months after the NCAA death penalty was issued due to issues with fielding a team for that season. They were only going to play 7 games that season, as the NCAA stripped them of their 5 home games that season as part of the death penalty.

SMU Decides to Scrap Limited 1988 Football Season and Return in 1989



[Edited 2012-07-23 13:22:17]
 
corocks
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 42):
Paterno's teams won the games fair and square.

I disagree. If this was found out earlier then Paterno would not have been around to get all those wins. In addition, Sandusky would not have been there either, and by all accounts, he was supposed to be a incredible defensive coach.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 40):
IIRC the NCAA handed SMU some severe sanctions and it was SMU who said we'll just impose the death penalty ourselves.

It was my understanding that SMU did get the death penalty the first year, but then SMU elected to extend it into the second year themselves.
 
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Vacated all of JoePa's wins since 1998 (He now has 298 wins)

I agree with most of the punishments, and I might get flack for this, but I don't agree with this one. As egregious as Paterno was for letting the molestation go on, he still did win all those games without cheating. Hate to prove Godwin's Law correct again, but it's just like Hitler--he did completely horrible things but it doesn't change that he took over most of Europe at one point. If Paterno cheated to get all these wins, I can see removing them. JMO, and I still think Paterno is a lousy man for what he did
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Ken777
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 23):
Watching the students and fans cry and whine about a coward and criminal makes me sick.

There was a lot of disbelief on the wrongdoings of JoePa. I think a lot of people also found it hard to believe that Sandusky was guilty.

We really try to avoid situations in this country where people are assumed guilty before a jury decides. That is one part that made some school supporters angry when all hell originally broke loose. You can probably find some comments to that effect posted on this board at that time.

Now you won't be seeing demonstrations for Sandusky. He was tried and found guilty - which is how the system works. JoePa died from cancer and there is really no use worrying too much about him. His statue is gone and his wins for 11 or 12 years have been "reversed". I could really care less.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 23):
So I will revise my statement from EVERYBODY to a great many people at the university over the years.

So find them, fire then and turn them over to the prosecutors, along with real evidence. I don't believe that the school nor the NCAA needs to focused on prosecutions - that is for the state/federal prosecutors. There will be room at the various prisons for the "great many people" you reference. Just make sure the evidence is solid.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 25):
On the contrary, I think it's the fans that need some of the punishment...We have a monster in the form of athletic church.

Like it or not college level sports are the apprenticeship programs for professional sports. Colleges make money off of these programs - as does the NCAA. (Looks like, however, the NCAA is really making some cash on the "Fine" they hit Penn State with.)

You want punishment for the fans? Ban broadcasting college games every other week - have the TV stations run local high school games instead. Let's see how fast the NCAA will go for that level of "fan punishment".

Quoting rampart (Reply 26):
Students --> go get a BA, enjoy your education, attend another intercollegiate sport.

Unless, of course, your scholarship has now been pulled because of the NCAA "fine".

Quoting rampart (Reply 26):
Have you seen the pro-Paterno student protests?

Of course, that got a lot of TV exposure. It was almost like kids being told their father had done some horrible things. It has taken some time for this to diminish, but the continual development of evidence has helped bring some reality to the students. Some still want him to ALSO be remembered for the good he did, but JoePa's statue came down without massive student demonstrations.

Quoting rampart (Reply 26):
Heard the alumni denial?

The initial explosion was hard for many to believe. Students, alumni, fans. Immediate assumption of guilt is not in our general interests.

BTW, have you heard of all the various alumni contributions to their schools over the years. Not just sports related contributions, but all the various buildings and scholarships that have ben funded by alumni. Best not to look down on these folks without understanding the depth of their generosity over generations.
 
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RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
The point is that you have to completely wipe out the culture that allowed this to happen first to make an example of them and secondly to ensure it can never happen again.

While I think the NCAA punishment was a bit weak, shutting down Penn State will not eliminate the culture that allowed this to happen. This culture exists at many universities across the U.S....and not just football either.

The only way to eliminate that culture would be to shut down all of college football for a few decades till the sport is no longer a major driver behind money, fame and power. However, since that is not going happen, I'm not sure how shutting down PSU does much. In fact, I suspect that PSU would simply comeback from a shutdown with even more gusto than they had before.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 40):
IIRC the NCAA handed SMU some severe sanctions and it was SMU who said we'll just impose the death penalty ourselves.

Hmm, the way I remember it (and by remember it, I mean I watched a documentary, since I was not alive in 1987) is that the NCAA set up a committee/board to handle the case, and this committee/board handed down the decision to cancel the season.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
Do you really think that if those people had known that they would have done anything at all?

To be honest, I don't know, and I don't think anybody can really know. My faith in humanity would hope the answer is yes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
You can't say you aren't part of a group when you do nothing to distinguish yourself from said group.

That logic is flawed at best. I've never distinguished myself as a non-racist...does that make me a racist?

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 42):
This part of the 'penalty' is stupid and childish.

Agreed. The games are over and done with. The coaches who have now surpassed him in (recognized) wins know that they only surpassed him because of an asterisk.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 43):

Thanks for the stats brush-up!  
Flying refined.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2302
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Ncaa Punishes Penn State

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
So find them, fire then and turn them over to the prosecutors, along with real evidence. I don't believe that the school nor the NCAA needs to focused on prosecutions - that is for the state/federal prosecutors. There will be room at the various prisons for the "great many people" you reference. Just make sure the evidence is solid.

You seem to have missed part of my point. Many of the people who are to blame did so without actually breaking any rule, or being aware of the problem they created: ATHLETE WORSHIP. The people in this picture, reacting to the news of the NCAA ruling subsequent to the findings of Paterno's illegal actions. Such investment and devotion. For what? A damn game. Most of them will never be more involved than a seat on the twenty yard line.



People bitch and moan about their healthcare but don't bat an eyelash about paying several hundred dollars to go scream with blood lust and drink beer for three hours. You cannot put these people in jail. You can, however, devalue what they so blindly cherish.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
Like it or not college level sports are the apprenticeship programs for professional sports. Colleges make money off of these programs - as does the NCAA. (Looks like, however, the NCAA is really making some cash on the "Fine" they hit Penn State with.)

Not that it makes any difference, but I do have a problem with that. Are they there to get the education that some are now lamenting they can't get because of scholarship cuts, or are they there to get into pro sports? If the answer is the second, there are many options to get there, and they should not be in a university athletic program unless it is their ONLY way to attain a degree, and do something positive. Become linebacker for the Patriots, in my humble opinion, does not deserve a full athletic scholarship to an institution of higher learning and is an abuse of the institution.

[Edited 2012-07-23 13:49:57]

[Edited 2012-07-23 13:51:02]

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