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stasisLAX
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Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:42 am

According to the German auto press, General Motors will sell the (just-released to dealerships in the USA) Cadillac XTS luxury sedan in Europe. But there's the twist in this news - the car will NOT be sold as a CADILLAC. In fact, Opel is rumored to sell the XTS as its own “flagship” vehicle, slotting in above the current Insignia models.

And Opel may call their new luxury sedan — get this — the Opel Omega. Please do not confuse this long-time Opel moniker with the upcoming Cadillac rear-wheel drive full-sized "flagship" sedan that will be underpinned by the new GM code-named "Omega" RWD platform.

The rebadged "Epsilon 2" platform Opel Omega will likely keep the current XTS' 3.6-liter V6 engine which produces 304 hp and 264 lb-ft of torque, with the possibility of the Omega additionally utilizing a turbocharged 2.8-liter V6 with 321 hp. A twin-turbo 2.0-liter diesel with 192 hp and a healthy 292 lbs of torque is also "in the cards" for the Opel version. This next-gen Omega would be built in Germany at the same (under-utilized) assembly plant that builds it's smaller (shorter wheelbase) platform sister, the Opel Insignia. Stylingwise, the Omega would look very similar to the XTS, with different Opel grille, badging, and some differences to suspension tuning - and the previous mentioned wider engine choices. It's probable that Opel may only offer the all-wheel drive version of the XTS, according to press reports. The American Cadillac XTS with all-wheel drive sells for approximately $53,000 USD.

Now the question has become, will Cadillac offer diesel-powered XTS here in North America to compete against diesel E and S class Mercedes sedan models? Cadillac is (of course) making no comments on the XTS becomes the new Opel Omega rumor, nor the possibility of a diesel powered North American XTS...... we shall see.

Source and Photos: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...ac-xts-serve-as-opels-new-flagship

[Edited 2012-07-24 20:44:28]

[Edited 2012-07-24 20:50:49]

[Edited 2012-07-24 21:08:07]
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Kent350787
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:13 am

Very interesting news - but surely such a move would kill any idea of Cadillac as a premium vehicle in Europe, after many less than successful attempts?
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 1):
Very interesting news - but surely such a move would kill any idea of Cadillac as a premium vehicle in Europe

Not unless Cadillac has come to its collective senses and will only sell rear-wheel drive models in Europe, like the new ATS sports sedan and the existing CTS models. It seems to me that Cadillac will wait to market the new "flagship" RWD sedan in Europe, where it will compete with the BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-class - as well as the Jaguar XJ models, thus allowing Opel to market the "Omega" version of the XTS, since it is based on the home-grown Opel Insignia.
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BMI727
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
And Opel may call their new luxury sedan — get this — the Opel Omega.

Serves them right for sending us the Catera. Payback's a bitch isn't it?

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
The American Cadillac XTS with all-wheel drive sells for approximately $53,000 USD.

Translate that to typical European prices and you're talking a pretty expensive underperforming car. Ugly too. I saw one the other day and it looks like a scrunched up Ford Fusion. I can't imagine why Europeans would like that more than an A6, E-Class, or 5 Series. I can't understand why Americans would either come to think of it.
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AA7295
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:15 am

I think it's silly!! Cadillac should only be Cadillac. Hasn't GM learnt their lesson on re-badging vehicles in different markets.

For goodness sake, streamline GM, streamline!!
 
IH8BY
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:48 am

Somewhat odd. Hasn't it become pretty much a given that you can't sell a premium-oriented large sedan under a traditional mass-market nameplate? However good the car is, people in the market for a car of that price most likely won't consider an Opel. I'm not saying that they shouldn't - people overlook a lot of great cars through badge snobbery - but the figures speak for themselves. BMW and Audi are even edging the mass-market manufacturers out on their own territory - for example, I believe the 3-series outsells the Ford Mondeo in the UK market - so a foray by Opel into the premium large sedan market is surely misguided at this point in time. Maybe in 10 years if their aspirations to move upmarket are realised.

However questionable Cadillac's reputation in Europe may be, it still has a brand cachet that Opel has yet to achieve.
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oldeuropean
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:56 am

First they destroy the brand Opel and than they try to sell such a car on the European market – what are they smoking?  

[Edited 2012-07-25 00:02:41]
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):

According to the German auto press, General Motors will sell the (just-released to dealerships in the USA) Cadillac XTS luxury sedan in Europe. But there's the twist in this news - the car will NOT be sold as a CADILLAC. In fact, Opel is rumored to sell the XTS as its own “flagship” vehicle, slotting in above the current Insignia models.

Doesn't help anyone. The XTS is visually just about the must unattractive, unappealing car I can remember seeing. Seriously, can anyone here imagine spending more than $1,000 for this piece of crap?

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na
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:27 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
I think it's silly!! Cadillac should only be Cadillac. Hasn't GM learnt their lesson on re-badging vehicles in different markets.

For goodness sake, streamline GM, streamline!!
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 6):

First they destroy the brand Opel and than they try to sell such a car on the European market – what are they smoking?

No chance to sell as an Opel. No one needing a big sedan and having the money will look into an Opel showroom. This is like the big Chrysler with Lancia badge, only that the Lancia is more noble than an Opel can ever be.
No chance to sell as a Cadillac in Europe as well. Apart from maybe Switzerland and the Netherlands US cars (with the exception of Jeeps) have a very low reputation in Germany.
Plus this Cadillac isnt a beauty, again. If for once since myriads of years Cadillac would build a car that aesthetically and technically could rival the competition then I´d give it a small chance, but this grandpa car - no way.
 
JJJ
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:47 am

There we go again. No one buys a large sedan unless it has an expensive badge up front. They could just have called Renault and VW and saved the almost guaranteed sales embarassment.

I wonder why don't they call it the Senator, it was the bigger, more luxurious cousin to the Omega and sounds better for an supposedly luxury car.
 
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:49 am

Quoting na (Reply 8):
This is like the big Chrysler with Lancia badge, only that the Lancia is more noble than an Opel can ever be.

Don't get me started on Chrysler/Lancia trying to sell the 300 in Europe. The Pentastar V6 isn't exactly a dog, but they're trying to sell the big American car without the big American engine. Like the Cadillac, you should just head to the local BMW or Mercedes dealer and save the time.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
If for once since myriads of years Cadillac would build a car that aesthetically and technically could rival the competition then I´d give it a small chance, but this grandpa car - no way.

In the US they've made great improvements, but they still aren't there. They started with the Escalade that started getting younger people into the fold, and the CTS is a good car for what it costs, (you could buy a CTS-V and have change left over for some work at Hennessey for what an M5 or E63 would cost) but Cadillac hasn't figured it out with the bigger cars yet. They've shown flashes like the Ciel concept, but then again there's also talk about the ELR, which would be an even more overpriced version of the already overpriced Chevy Volt/Opel Ampera.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
US cars (with the exception of Jeeps) have a very low reputation in Germany.

Europeans seem to like Vipers and Corvettes well enough. And they should considering what it costs to get one over there. In the UK a Camaro has a list price over $20,000 greater than here for a similar model.
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na
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:44 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Don't get me started on Chrysler/Lancia trying to sell the 300 in Europe. The Pentastar V6 isn't exactly a dog, but they're trying to sell the big American car without the big American engine. Like the Cadillac, you should just head to the local BMW or Mercedes dealer and save the time.

The Lancia Thema isnt a bad car, it just isnt a Lancia. It has no Italian feel whatsoever, even the opposite. Italian means elegant, lighthanded, and not too big. The Thema is the opposite, a huge, hulky barge crying America. It has a superb interior though which actually looks better than Mercedes E, BMW 5 and Audi A6. Problem is, hardly anyone with the money will ever notice as the outside doesnt signal that at all.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
In the UK a Camaro has a list price over $20,000 greater than here for a similar model.

I dont get it. While US cars are extremely more expensive in Europe, European cars are cheaper in the US. Are we stupid Europeans subsidizing the US or what?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Europeans seem to like Vipers and Corvettes well enough.

Corvette and Mustang are doing reasonably well here. The Viper though is much rarer than even a Ferrari.
 
JJJ
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Europeans seem to like Vipers and Corvettes well enough

Only in posters.

Actual sales are extremely low compared to others in their class: 440 between camaros and corvettes for the whole of Europe in 2011.
 
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:43 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
And Opel may call their new luxury sedan — get this — the Opel Omega.

I don't see why the "get this" Opel has historically alsways called there large sedan Omega.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
The Pentastar V6 isn't exactly a dog, but they're trying to sell the big American car without the big American engine

Europeans rarely buy the big V8 versions from the Germans or Jaguar, they more often than not buy the 3.0 diesel, which is what Lancia are trying to sell. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to import the V8.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
(you could buy a CTS-V and have change left over for some work at Hennessey for what an M5 or E63 would cost

The bloke who buys a CTS-V and has it modified is not the same buyer who will stump up for a M5, E63 or XF-R.
 
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:34 pm

First, before everyone gets upset, I would wait for something a little more official. Current reports may not necessarily be accurate.

Quoting na (Reply 11):
I dont get it. While US cars are extremely more expensive in Europe, European cars are cheaper in the US. Are we stupid Europeans subsidizing the US or what?

Cars in general are more expensive in Europe. Blame it on taxes. And while having 10 engines for each car gives consumers a lot more choices than here in the US, it increases the build complexity further driving up the price of the car.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13):
Europeans rarely buy the big V8 versions from the Germans or Jaguar, they more often than not buy the 3.0 diesel, which is what Lancia are trying to sell. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to import the V8.

   Hence why most of the luxury Germany companies (don't know about Jaguar) have rather popular badge delete options and created things like the S line and M sport. Europeans can be vain too.
 
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
it increases the build complexity further driving up the price of the car.

I don't think this is correct, for example the three series has multiple different engine option but in reality there are only 3, 4 cylinder petrol and diesel, 6 cylinder petrol and diesel and the M3 V8.
 
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:43 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15):
Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
it increases the build complexity further driving up the price of the car.

I don't think this is correct, for example the three series has multiple different engine option but in reality there are only 3, 4 cylinder petrol and diesel, 6 cylinder petrol and diesel and the M3 V8.



Way more complex than the usual North American offering: one, maximum two engine choices and a single transmission.

Back to the topic; I agree with everyone saying that introducing the XTS as Opel Omega in Europe is a bad idea. It brings a question: If they want to bring back old model names, why the Omega? Why not to import the Holden Commodore and sell it as Opel Commodore?
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15):
I don't think this is correct, for example the three series has multiple different engine option but in reality there are only 3, 4 cylinder petrol and diesel, 6 cylinder petrol and diesel and the M3 V8.

That is a lot of engines.

In Europe the 3 series has the 316d putting out 116 hp, the 318d putting out 143hp, the 320d putting out 184hp, the 320d Efficient Dynamics versions putting out 163hp, the 330d putting out 258hp.You also got the 320 putting out 184hp, the 328 putting out 245hp, the 335 putting out 305 hp plus the M3 (the new one not yet available though) and the 3 series hybrid (not sure if it is currently out, but it is coming later this year).

That is 10 engines.

In the US? You got the 328, the 335, the hybrid, and the M3.

That is 4 engines (although I wouldn't be surprised to see the 330d eventually make it's way over here).

Just looking at BMW's UK page is enough to give a person a headache with all the various engines and trim levels, and having all those different options makes the car more expensive to produce for the European market.

[Edited 2012-07-25 11:17:30]
 
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 17):
That is 10 engines.

Might be 10 engines but the 316d, 318d, 320d, 320d Ed are all the same engine, just different states of tune, the 320i & 328 are the same basic engine, as are the 330 & 335, ditto for the 330d & 335d, they are all built on automated production lines, it's not that complex, it's all done by computers.

Quoting Polot (Reply 17):


Just looking at BMW's UK page is enough to give a person a headache with all the various engines and trim levels, and having all those different options makes the car more expensive to produce for the European market.

It's not a problem, automated production, just in time parts delivery, the punter (me for example) chooses what they want at the dealer, this is then inputted into the production system and in 3 months out pops your car, this has nothing to do with why cars are more expensive in Europe that the US, that's due to taxes.

I've specified and purchased 6 cars in the past 6 years, all chosen with options I want, the idea of purchasing off the lot is not much fun, I want to choose exactly what my car is going to be like.
 
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:56 pm

I think this has to be a US board decision against the wishes of Opel. Noone in Europe rates American cars (perhaps other than a few exotic roadsters); They might be functional enough in the US, but most Americans would take European or Japanese over their local product if they had the money. This looks desperate and should be just another indignity to Opel's once great heritage.
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 18):
, that's due to taxes.

No. In many EU countries there are no other taxes on cars beside VAT. Therefore is very easy to calculate the pre-tax price and that's usually way higher compared to the USA.
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13):
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
And Opel may call their new luxury sedan — get this — the Opel Omega.

I don't see why the "get this" Opel has historically alsways called there large sedan Omega.

Not true. In the past they used to name their cars after naval ranks, with the smallest being the Kadett and the largest the Admiral.

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Kiwirob
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
Not true. In the past they used to name their cars after naval ranks, with the smallest being the Kadett and the largest the Admiral.

So you're forgetting about the Omega produced from 86 until 03.
 
racko
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
First, before everyone gets upset, I would wait for something a little more official. Current reports may not necessarily be accurate.

Thank god. With GM, no matter how bizarre something sounds, you have to fear that it might be true. I wouldn't even put a 5,13m AWD Omega past them.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 19):
This looks desperate and should be just another indignity to Opel's once great heritage.

I've read that the Insignia assembly plant is functioning at well-below optimal level, and GM/Opel is trying to fill the void in capacity with the Omega/XTS model in order to keep the sales of the Insignia profitable. One must remember that Opel cannot close German production plants due to the bailout funds it received from some German states and Opel's iron-clad labor contacts. Opel is in a desperately BAD financial condition, and, as the cliche goes, desperate times call for desperate measures. The worst indignity to Opel would be to be closed completely by General Motors, and the workers at the various plants would bare the worst indignity.... unemployment.
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Marcus
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:54 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
General Motors will sell the (just-released to dealerships in the USA) Cadillac XTS luxury sedan in Europe.

No it will not.....

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...adillac-xts-turns-into-opel-omega/
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:16 am

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 19):
They might be functional enough in the US, but most Americans would take European or Japanese over their local product if they had the money.

Oh crap, here we go again. That fine Euro arrogance. Fact is, there are several Euro manufacturers who have left this market in shame. Shamed by poor quality, poor design and poor service. Cars that were just plain ol' sh*t. There are very good reasons VW is behind the market curve here. There are good reasons Renault left in shame. Fiat as well.

What has done well here from Europe are Premuim Sport and Luxury cars. Of course they are good. And priced accordingly. And that's the problem with your statement "if they had the money". Fact is they either don't or prefer not to spend an entire years pay on a car. The Euros simply have not done well here with every-man's cars.
 
BMI727
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13):
Europeans rarely buy the big V8 versions from the Germans or Jaguar, they more often than not buy the 3.0 diesel, which is what Lancia are trying to sell. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to import the V8

It doesn't make much sense to sell the 300 there at all then. Considering European prices, why would anyone buy a Lancia/Chrysler when they could get a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. for about the same cost? It makes sense here where a V8 powered 300C costs the same as a slightly optioned 3 Series, but against a 5 Series or E-Class it just falls short.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13):
The bloke who buys a CTS-V and has it modified is not the same buyer who will stump up for a M5, E63 or XF-R.

Maybe the culture in Europe is different, but here lots of cars get tuned and not just Civics owned by teenagers. Sometimes it's as simple as aftermarket wheels and a new ECU chip, but there are plenty of BMWs boasting Dinan or AC Schnitzer parts, Porsches with Techart bits, Lorinser Mercedes, etc. I've seen a twin-turbocharged Gallardo with over 1000 hp driving around.

But yes, the E63 and M5 are better cars than the CTS-V, but not $30k better. And then there's the piped in engine noise on the M5...  
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stasisLAX
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting Marcus (Reply 25):
No it will not.....

If the Omega rumor is not true, then Opel's media relations department is being rather shady. When asked by the press about the Omega/XTS rumors, a spokesperson for Opel neither denied NOR confirmed the report.
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:23 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
But yes, the E63 and M5 are better cars than the CTS-V, but not $30k better.

No question, Cadillac has made some pretty spectacular advances technologically. A friend has the CTS-V station wagon, and it's pretty good, driving-wise.

But the styling is enough to make a blind man puke. I can't imagine anyone spending that kind of money for a car designed so blah...

  
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BMI727
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
But the styling is enough to make a blind man puke. I can't imagine anyone spending that kind of money for a car designed so blah...

I've seen a guy driving around in one just like I'd get if I had $70,000 lying around: black coupe with black wheels. The thing looks like Darth Vader on wheels.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
AC Schnitzer parts, Porsches with Techart bits, Lorinser Mercedes

All German tuning houses. I had an AC Schnitzer chip in my 3 series.
 
JJJ
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:28 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 26):
There are very good reasons VW is behind the market curve here. There are good reasons Renault left in shame. Fiat as well.

VW sold 26% more cars in 2011 than 2010 (that's the VW marque, not counting Audis who also had strong growth), and build a shiny new plant. I'm sure they're comfortable enough behind the market curve.

Fiat just successfully launched the 500, a car many thought would not be marketable in the US.

Renault doesn't need to return there, they own Nissan so they're smart enough not to get there again. The platform the Sentra is riding was designed by Renault for the 2nd gen Mégane, for instance.

The thing is European manufacturers have learnt the lessons of the 80s, out of the big 3, only Ford seems to have done the same.
 
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 26):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 19):
They might be functional enough in the US, but most Americans would take European or Japanese over their local product if they had the money.

Oh crap, here we go again. That fine Euro arrogance. Fact is, there are several Euro manufacturers who have left this market in shame. Shamed by poor quality, poor design and poor service. Cars that were just plain ol' sh*t. There are very good reasons VW is behind the market curve here. There are good reasons Renault left in shame. Fiat as well.

What has done well here from Europe are Premuim Sport and Luxury cars. Of course they are good. And priced accordingly. And that's the problem with your statement "if they had the money". Fact is they either don't or prefer not to spend an entire years pay on a car. The Euros simply have not done well here with every-man's cars.

mham001, please remember the thread title: selling Cadillacs in Europe via Opel is the topic at hand. Not Smarts or small Fiats. On this topic there is no "problem" with my statement; there is a problem with your reading of it and your reaction. In the sector this thread is focusing on, my statements, as you confirm, are fully accurate.

So, agreeing that it is true that Americans would buy BMWs, Mercs and Audi's or other Europoean brands rather than similarly priced Cadis on the whole and that Europeans would prefer a European mark as well, proves my point.

So you see it is all observable fact. As for "fine Euro" arrogance, we do our best, but will never be in the same league of "exceptionalism".  
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
racko
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:03 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 28):
then Opel's media relations department is being rather shady. When asked by the press about the Omega/XTS rumors, a spokesperson for Opel neither denied NOR confirmed the report.

He said "No comment". Which is the standard response to pretty much all but the most outrageous rumors, because denying all false rumors leaves you with only 2 options when you are confronted with a true, but still secret rumor: Lie straight into the face of the people you are working with and are supposed to have a great relationship with, or essentially confirming it by not commenting.
 
mham001
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 32):
VW sold 26% more cars in 2011 than 2010 (that's the VW marque, not counting Audis who also had strong growth), and build a shiny new plant. I'm sure they're comfortable enough behind the market curve.

Actually, no they are not. The entire VW group has less than 5% market share here. Interestingly, there is only 1 European car in the top 30 here, the VW Jetta at #21 this year (-9.3%) . They are still fighting quality problems, perceived and real, in their VW and Audi lines. Their big bright spot is Porsche but that is not exactly the high volume part of the market. VW itself has admitted it needs to improve its game here if it wants to fulfill its desire for world dominance.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 32):
Fiat just successfully launched the 500, a car many thought would not be marketable in the US.

Yes, they have. A niche car which would not have made it here without the Chrysler merge.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 32):
Renault doesn't need to return there, they own Nissan so they're smart enough not to get there again. The platform the Sentra is riding was designed by Renault for the 2nd gen Mégane, for instance.

Nissan has also been on the ropes. Their strategy to get out of it seems to be to expand as quickly as possible. The overall surge in sales is masking their problems so we shall see. It does not negate the FACT that Renault was chased out of here for selling poor quality cars.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 32):
The thing is European manufacturers have learnt the lessons of the 80s, out of the big 3, only Ford seems to have done the same.

How many US built cars have you driven in the last 5 years? And what you are saying is that Fiat has merged with another crap manufacturer (which I tend to agree).

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 33):
So, agreeing that it is true that Americans would buy BMWs, Mercs and Audi's or other Europoean brands rather than similarly priced Cadis on the whole and that Europeans would prefer a European mark as well, proves my point.

Why are you holding up one sub brand against 3 world players? Cadillac has not had half the R&D into it as any of those manufacturers. Even with that, Cadillac does hold its own in this market...

 
Kiwirob
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):
Cadillac does hold its own in this market...

That's there only market, they failed every time they have tried selling outside of North America, Cadillacs just aren't good enough.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):
Why are you holding up one sub brand against 3 world players? Cadillac has not had half the R&D into it as any of those manufacturers. Even with that, Cadillac does hold its own in this market...

We get it, you don't like hearing criticism of US brands. The discussion, however, is about selling US brands in the European, car market. My argument continues to be, that they are not rated in the market. I don't think there is any value proposition to sell. That Cadis do ok in their local US market, is not in question, just whether Europeans will want them or not in face of the options...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 37):
just whether Europeans will want them or not in face of the options...

The fact is Europeans don't want them, GM has tried to lunch Cadillac about three times since the early 90's and failed every time.
 
BMI727
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 31):
All German tuning houses.

Yes they are. Brabus does some pretty insane stuff too. It's nice that having a tuner car no longer means poor reliability and driveability. Some places will even give you a warranty.

Maybe it's just a manifestation of the hotrodding culture and all of the various car movements America has had over the last 65 years or so, but I noticed relatively few tuned cars on my trips to Europe. But as I alluded to before, there's a lot that can be done under the skin.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 33):
So, agreeing that it is true that Americans would buy BMWs, Mercs and Audi's or other Europoean brands rather than similarly priced Cadis on the whole and that Europeans would prefer a European mark as well, proves my point.

The primary people who will buy the XTS, and the DTS and DeVille before that (this is like the second or third "interim model") are people who grew up when Cadillac really was the standard of the world.

And for what it's worth, in all of my ongoing car shopping, the only American car I've looked at is Australian.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 36):
That's there only market, they failed every time they have tried selling outside of North America, Cadillacs just aren't good enough.

That's the long and the short of it. The XTS just sucks. The Escalade is too big for European tastes (how do the Mercedes GL and Audi Q7 do over there? That's about the closest Europeans make) The CTS could be a legitimate competitor for the 5 Series, E-Class, et. al. if Cadillac could maintain the price difference. But they almost certainly couldn't, leaving them in the same position as the Chrysler 300.

The ATS is too early to call, but I suspect that while it may be tempting to some buyers, I suspect it will fall well short of the European brands. I highly doubt that anyone at BMW is losing sleep because of the ATS.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
The CTS could be a legitimate competitor for the 5 Series, E-Class, et. al. if Cadillac could maintain the price difference. But they almost certainly couldn't, leaving them in the same position as the Chrysler 300.

Without diesels they need not bother.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Brabus does some pretty insane stuff too. It's nice that having a tuner car no longer means poor reliability and driveability.

Brabus like (Ruf and Alpina) aren't tuners, they are manufacturers.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
The primary people who will buy the XTS, and the DTS and DeVille before that (this is like the second or third "interim model") are people who grew up when Cadillac really was the standard of the world.

         When, on earth, was Cadillac "the standard of the WORLD"? That would have either been Rolls Royce, Daimler, Bently, Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Maybach, Lancia, or simiilar, no?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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Polot
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 41):
When, on earth, was Cadillac "the standard of the WORLD"? That would have either been Rolls Royce, Daimler, Bently, Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Maybach, Lancia, or simiilar, no?

Cadillac was often regarded as the standard of the world up to the 60s. That doesn't necessarily mean they were the best, but they were often considered one of the top luxury brands. Rolls Royce and Bentley were too small, Maybach's history might as well be non-existent, they were never a successful brand by any means. Mercedes were hobbled because they were German, BMW weren't really that luxurious until the past couple of decades, Jaguar was also too small with a spotty history. I don't think Lancia has ever been considered the standard of anything outside of Italy except in the rally world.

Meanwhile Cadillac was known for innovation, especially in its engines, and of course its styling trends (i.e. tail fins).

[Edited 2012-07-26 17:37:55]
 
BMI727
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:26 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 40):
Without diesels they need not bother.

They would definitely need to do that and I doubt the investment would be worth it anyway. Even offering a four cylinder gasoline engine would probably be a good idea if they ever wanted to sell the CTS in Europe, although I doubt they do.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 40):
Brabus like (Ruf and Alpina) aren't tuners, they are manufacturers.

I think that you can buy parts individually as well in the case of Ruf and Brabus. I'm not sure what the jargon is in Europe, but even though they are technically their own models, most Ruf and Brabus manufactured cars would still be considered tuner cars here.

Hennessey has started building their own model as well. The Venom GT starts with Lotus Exige components and adds a twin turbo V8 to end up as a 2700 lb. car with 1200 horsepower.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 41):
When, on earth, was Cadillac "the standard of the WORLD"?

1950s into the early 1960s. In those days Cadillac did deserve their reputation and some of their models would set you back as much as a Rolls Royce would.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:57 am

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 41):
When, on earth, was Cadillac "the standard of the WORLD"?

Pre World War 2 Cadillac along with Lincoln, Pierce Arrow, Auburn, Cord, Dusenberg, Packard built some of the finest automobiles that have ever graced our roads, after the war it all went down hill for the US luxury brands.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
They would definitely need to do that and I doubt the investment would be worth it anyway. Even offering a four cylinder gasoline engine would probably be a good idea if they ever wanted to sell the CTS in Europe, although I doubt they do.

It should be fairly easy for them to modify Opels 4 cylinder diesels for a RWD instillation, what GM don't have is a suitable 3.0 6 cylinder diesel.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
I think that you can buy parts individually as well in the case of Ruf and Brabus.

Ruf will sell you alloy wheels, they won't sell you engine modifications without buying the entire car. Ruf buys the bare body in white form Porsche, then adds the magic bits which make a Ruf so much better than a Porsche. Little known fact when Porsche were thinking about dropping the 911 Ruf had a deal to buy the production line and rights to the design.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:29 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 42):
Cadillac was often regarded as the standard of the world up to the 60s.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
1950s into the early 1960s. In those days Cadillac did deserve their reputation and some of their models would set you back as much as a Rolls Royce would.

Umh, I get that they once made top quality cars , between WWI and WWII and were recognized for it. But USA doss not equal 'the world'. I'm not sure Cadillac has never been 'the standard of the world', even if it was the standard in the US.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
JJJ
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:36 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):
Actually, no they are not. The entire VW group has less than 5% market share here. Interestingly, there is only 1 European car in the top 30 here, the VW Jetta at #21 this year (-9.3%) . They are still fighting quality problems, perceived and real, in their VW and Audi lines. Their big bright spot is Porsche but that is not exactly the high volume part of the market. VW itself has admitted it needs to improve its game here if it wants to fulfill its desire for world dominance.

Do you really think VW worries about market share? This is what they care for:

"German giant Volkswagen AG posted a first-quarter profit of $4.2 billion, up 87% from a year ago, driven heavily by stronger U.S. sales, up 34%, for its VW and Audi brands."

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...s-to-be-worlds-no-1/1#.UBI9VPUfnk8

How of earth do you get a 26% sales growth if you're fighting quality problems? It's obvious that not only they're in great shape, they're also getting better.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):
It does not negate the FACT that Renault was chased out of here for selling poor quality cars.

So? We're talking about today, and today Renault has a firm foot planted on the US market in Nissan.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):
How many US built cars have you driven in the last 5 years? And what you are saying is that Fiat has merged with another crap manufacturer (which I tend to agree).

I've been spending an average 6 weeks a year in the US for the last 7 years, thanks. I've driven the whole lot probably the whole Ford lineup (thanks Hertz) lots of japanese, a few Buicks, Chryslers, Jeeps, Caddys and Chevys as well, including probably the worst car ever: a 2007 or 08 Impala SS. Several thousand miles, in over 20 states, city, rural and interstate driving.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:51 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 42):
Cadillac was often regarded as the standard of the world up to the 60s.

"Standart of the world"?  

Yeah, but only in the US.

What a pity, that nobody outside the US knew that.   

[Edited 2012-07-27 02:23:26]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
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Polot
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 45):
Umh, I get that they once made top quality cars , between WWI and WWII and were recognized for it. But USA doss not equal 'the world'. I'm not sure Cadillac has never been 'the standard of the world', even if it was the standard in the US.
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 47):
What a pity, that nobody outside the US knew that.

It is just a saying that people said, it is not like someone objectively decided that it was true, just like BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine." And in the first half of the 20th century there really wasn't all that much competition from the rest of the world...

You guys are nitpicking over the littlest details because you can't accept that Cadillac was once considered one of the best cars in the world.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Opel To Sell Cadillac XTS In Europe As Opel Omega

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 48):
And in the first half of the 20th century there really wasn't all that much competition from the rest of the world...

You're forgetting where the car was invented, I'll give you a hint, it wasn't in the US. American cars weren't better in the first half of the 20th century either. US cars have pretty much soild best in North America yet failed outside North America, that's pretty much the history of US automakers in a nutshell.

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