Pyrex
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How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:41 am

So apparently there is this big bru-ha-ha going on over something someone at Chick-Fil-A has said. Don't really know what it was, don't really care, that is not what is at question here.

http://www.boston.com/business/news/.../FWZEhX8jLqiQm04ZH5PMTL/story.html

http://www.boston.com/business/news/.../Qnx4ngfLZveFOwtv0w0u0O/story.html

Senior elected officials in at least two cities (Boston and Chicago) have vowed to keep them away from opening up shop in their cities because they didn't like what was said. Take notice - they are not blocking them from opening stores because of some health and safety violation, or some zoning infringement, which would be in their power, I guess. They are basically publicly admitting to abusing the power entrusted in them by arbitrarily targeting a specific business because they don't like it, at the very least an impeachable offense if not a criminal act. Can you imagine the uproar that would rightfully happen if some Republican Mayor vowed to ban the opening of a Ben & Jerry's store because he or she doesn't like their political leaning?

And liberals wonder why conservatives have a natural distrust of government. When an elected government official can come out and say something like this publicly without any repercussion whatsoever, just imagine the untold damage your garden variety faceless bureaucrat with a grudge can inflict.
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Mir
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:54 am

If Chick-fil-A really wanted to open up stores in Boston or Chicago, I doubt the objections of Menino and whoever the other guy is would stand up in a court. So it's just hot air coming out of a politician, which is nothing new.

-Mir
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:13 am

Normally I find your posts like nails on the chalkboard, but i'm largely inclined to agree here, i don't like the precedent and general principle behind it. There are tons of ways to keep an establishment away, but this shouldn't be one of them. I think its more about influence than teeth behind their words, but I sure wouldn't like to see it the other way around, true.
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Airstud
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:14 am

What's potentially interesting here is that Alderman Moreno in Chicago goes on record saying he doesn't want Chick-Fil-A because he doesn't like their politics. The article later says,

He said he was not worried about being sued. First, he said, there are well-documented traffic and congestion issues in the Logan Square neighborhood that he could raise to justify his decision.

But in a lawsuit, is that really going to be his escape, when he's already gone on record saying his real reason to block the restaurant is something else?
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JJJ
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:55 am

Well a public servant derelicting his duty (and ensuring equal conditions for new business openings is one) is a crime.

But they haven't got there yet, it's just a loudmouth politician.
 
ltbewr
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:26 am

Last week at another site, I made a comment that I thought some cities as well as mall operators would take actions to deny Chick-Fil-A and other companies operating in their cities and malls if they have corporate policies or leaders that discriminate or show prejudice against GLTB's. Chick-Fil-A also clearly shows openly Christian views in the process of selecting and training of franchisees and doesn't allow stores to be open on Sundays as part of their core beliefs. Some of these and other cities like San Francisco and New York have also denied Walmart from building and operating stores over their anit-union and labor issues. Yet these same politics say OK to Target which is not better than Walmart as to the pay and anti-union attitudes or McDonald's a major purveyor of bad/junk food which is damaging to he health of millions.

The reality is that politicians bashing Chick-Fil-A are not doing anything illegal, they are just looking for a cheap way to get votes of a very vocal group, GLTB's, by bashing a company with attitudes that GLTB's find very offensive.
 
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mariner
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:30 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
The reality is that politicians bashing Chick-Fil-A are not doing anything illegal, they are just looking for a cheap way to get votes of a very vocal group, GLTB's, by bashing a company with attitudes that GLTB's find very offensive.

This GLBT(Q) doesn't find what the Chick-Fil-A CEO said offensive at all, it's his right to say pretty much anything he wants - same for politicians.

I thought it was a pretty stupid thing for the CEO to say - unless he's been asleep for twenty years he must have known there would be backlash.

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smittyone
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:19 pm

This is a pretty complicated question, really. At what point does the population expect/require the government to intervene in matters like this.

For instance, if I privately owned a restaurant and openly stated that one of my core beliefs was the superiority of the white race and the critical importance of maintaining racial purity (these are NOT my beliefs LOL), would/should my establishment be welcome? Would non-white people and/or interracial couples think that was acceptable?

My attitude is uphold the First Amendment and let the market decide, but not everyone can handle genuine freedom of speech when it is unpalatable.

As for Chick Fil A, I don't like the 'cut of their jib' at all and would most likely never go into one other than to use the men's room (if I had explosive diahhrea).
 
WestJet747
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:26 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Well, the only way it could be a crime is if it actually happens, which it hasn't. So far we just have politicians blowing hot air to make a statement. I don't like what the President of Chick-fil-A said, but it's not a mayor's place to go off like this (especially in such major cities).

But with that said, the BoD needs to re-visit this Dan Cathy guy's conduct. This guy is paid to run a company, not run his mouth. If I were a stakeholder in this company I would not be pleased that a C-level manager is making politicized statements. Profitability and growth need to be a priority over personal biases.
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Flighty
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:06 pm

Lately, you would think Democrats object to Chick-Fil-A because it is not a government program funded by debt. Plus, it makes a profit off of workers by selling goods for money. Practically a human rights violation.
 
fr8mech
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 8):
But with that said, the BoD needs to re-visit this Dan Cathy guy's conduct. This guy is paid to run a company, not run his mouth. If I were a stakeholder in this company I would not be pleased that a C-level manager is making politicized statements. Profitability and growth need to be a priority over personal biases.

Chick-fil-A is a privately held company and does not have a board of directors, it has an executive committee (6 one way, half dozen another). Not sure what a 'C' level manager is, but Mr. Cathy is the COO of Chick-fil-A and is well within his rights as the COO to make whatever statement he wants.

So long as Chick-fil-A does not discriminate against its employees or customers, I don't see where the mayor and the council can legally prevent Chick-fil-A from expanding in Boston, especially since they are on the record saying what they said.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 7):
This is a pretty complicated question, really. At what point does the population expect/require the government to intervene in matters like this.

Again, so long as the entity involved does not break the law, it is not the government's business. The public can 'vote' with their wallets and refuse to do business with the entity in question.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 7):
but not everyone can handle genuine freedom of speech when it is unpalatable.

And, that would be that particular person's or group's problem.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 4):
But they haven't got there yet, it's just a loudmouth politician

Exactly, someone trying to make political hay over someone else's convictions, whether that someone is a person or a business entity.
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WestJet747
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Chick-fil-A is a privately held company and does not have a board of directors
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Mr. Cathy is the COO of Chick-fil-A and is well within his rights as the COO to make whatever statement he wants

I wasn't aware they were private. But knowing that now, I guess he can say whatever he wants as long as it is in line with the other owners' views. But I still maintain that a smart business leader won't want to rile feathers within it's (potential and existing) customer base.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Not sure what a 'C' level manager is

"C-level executive" may have been a more accurate way to put it. It's basically what it says: any executive with a CXX title, like CEO, COO, CFO, etc.
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fr8mech
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
But I still maintain that a smart business leader won't want to rile feathers within it's (potential and existing) customer base.

Agreed, but, up to them. And, it's up to the consumer to decide whether the entity's political (is it political or religious or cultural?) position is compatible with where the consumer wants to spend his money.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
"C-level executive" may have been a more accurate way to put it. It's basically what it says: any executive with a CXX title, like CEO, COO, CFO, etc.

Yeah, I picked up on that later on. Only 2 cups of coffee in this am.
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smittyone
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Again, so long as the entity involved does not break the law, it is not the government's business. The public can 'vote' with their wallets and refuse to do business with the entity in question.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
And, that would be that particular person's or group's problem.

For the record I am with you on both counts above. As long as they aren't yelling the proverbial "fire" in a crowded movie theater people or companies should have the freedom to be as much of a douchebag as they like without government interference. In fact I don't see how government could possibly claim the 'moral high ground' when it comes to regulating douche baggery!

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
But I still maintain that a smart business leader won't want to rile feathers

Well played my friend, well played indeed.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
If Chick-fil-A really wanted to open up stores in Boston or Chicago, I doubt the objections of Menino and whoever the other guy is would stand up in a court. So it's just hot air coming out of a politician, which is nothing new.

Bingo. At least in MA, however, Chick-fil-A will need to recognize same-sex marriages among their employees and provide benefits accordingly. The mayor could have simply made that clear.

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
This GLBT(Q) doesn't find what the Chick-Fil-A CEO said offensive at all, it's his right to say pretty much anything he wants - same for politicians.

I think it's very offensive. And as a result I will not eat at CFA. Which is a pity because their food is delicious (you can't eat for a week before having a single waffle fry, but it's really nom!).

However, I agree that he has a right to say it. That said, good luck to him if he ever wants to open a branch in Germany with that kind of corporate policy. And with an increasing number of American adults supporting gay marriage and vehemently opposing homophobia, that was a horrible business decision for him to make.

Now, absolutely ON-TOPIC video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO-msplukrw

Listen carefully to the lyrics. I've not laughed so hard in a very long time.  rotfl 

[Edited 2012-07-26 09:13:56]
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seb146
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
This GLBT(Q) doesn't find what the Chick-Fil-A CEO said offensive at all, it's his right to say pretty much anything he wants - same for politicians.

Yes, he has the right to say whatever he wants and to run his company any way he wants within the law. That means: he can not order his franchises to deny employment based on sexual orientation and, in some states, must extend benefits to same sex partners. Both of which he is on the record as being against.

At the same time ANY politician has the right to voice their own opinion. If the mayor of Boston says his opinion is he will not allow CFA to open, why is that opinion an issue? Are elected officials not allowed to have opinions?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Chick-fil-A will need to recognize same-sex marriages among their employees and provide benefits accordingly.

Not gonna happen with this current CEO.

BTW, I ate at Chick-Fil-A once 12 years ago. It was awful. The taste and presentation and price were all a perfect storm of awful. ARCO/AM-PM does better chicken sandwiches.
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sturmovik
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 14):
In fact I don't see how government could possibly claim the 'moral high ground' when it comes to regulating douche baggery!

Somehow I found this line very funny..  
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Revelation
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

It is an abuse and maybe in theory a crime, but in the case of Boston, no jury would ever convict.

Rightly or wrongly, it's just how things are done in Beantown.

It reminds me of the situation where Bob Kraft wanted to build the new Patriots stadium in South Boston. The problem with Kraft was that he went in high-profile, and didn't grease the right palms and kiss the right butts, so even though the project would have been wonderful for the city, he was shown the door, and he had to resort to offering up Hartford as a strawman to even get the state to pay for road and sewer improvements in Foxborough.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
So it's just hot air coming out of a politician, which is nothing new.

Wrong. If Menino has the public on his side the store will almost certainly not open, and even if it does, the owners will wish they never opened it. You can take that to the bank.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 4):
Well a public servant derelicting his duty (and ensuring equal conditions for new business openings is one) is a crime.

The difference here is that he has the public on his side, so one can argue he's doing the will of the people.

While Boston in the past has had its share of prejudiced people, they've more or less died off.

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
I thought it was a pretty stupid thing for the CEO to say

Indeed. If it was all about the chicken, there'd be no issue. Instead, that idiot made it all about gay marraige, not about the chicken. Sure, maybe he'll get some more business from the hardcore conservatives, but I bet this is a very bad move on his part.
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smittyone
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
At the same time ANY politician has the right to voice their own opinion. If the mayor of Boston says his opinion is he will not allow CFA to open, why is that opinion an issue? Are elected officials not allowed to have opinions?

Sure, they can have opinions...but you said "his opinion is he will not allow CFA to open". There are actually two pieces to that:

His opinion is that the CFA should not open. Not allowing the CFA to open is an action taken based on that opinion.

Whatever an elected official's opinion might be, he/she needs to make sure that the actions taken are in fact within the legal authority of his/her office.

In this case I don't know what legal authority they have.
 
Mir
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
BTW, I ate at Chick-Fil-A once 12 years ago. It was awful.

   I don't get the hype. Chick-Fil-A opened a branch at my college, replacing the previous chicken place. It was not an improvement - lower quality, higher prices.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
If Menino has the public on his side the store will almost certainly not open, and even if it does, the owners will wish they never opened it. You can take that to the bank.

If the public were against Chick-Fil-A, then they wouldn't be opening a store anyway, regardless of what Menino might think about it.

-Mir
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fr8mech
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
Yes, he has the right to say whatever he wants and to run his company any way he wants within the law. That means: he can not order his franchises to deny employment based on sexual orientation and, in some states, must extend benefits to same sex partners. Both of which he is on the record as being against.

In which case he would be free to close up his place or not open one up. It would be up to the state to enforce the law, if such a law exists in that state.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
The difference here is that he has the public on his side, so one can argue he's doing the will of the people.

As I recall, the 'will of the people' in NY was that a mosque not be built near ground zero, but Bloomberg and gang kept pushing it. The will of the people can be a dubious thing, not a bad thing, but dubious.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
the hardcore conservatives

See, you had to go there. I know plenty of liberals who are against gay marriage and I know plenty of conservatives (some on this very forum) who are for it.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
BTW, I ate at Chick-Fil-A once 12 years ago. It was awful.
Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
It was not an improvement - lower quality, higher prices.

Strange... I've never once met a person that didn't love their chicken!

It's been a moral dilemma for me lately. CFA is by far, without a doubt, my favorite fast food restaurant (the only one I'll eat at) but then they do this... ... ...  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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mariner
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
Yes, he has the right to say whatever he wants and to run his company any way he wants within the law. That means: he can not order his franchises to deny employment based on sexual orientation and, in some states, must extend benefits to same sex partners. Both of which he is on the record as being against.

He may have said he is against it - but as long as he doesn't actually do it, as long as he acts within the law, I assume he's in the clear.

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ALTF4
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
But I still maintain that a smart business leader won't want to rile feathers within it's (potential and existing) customer base.

They've been riling feathers for years and still have done remarkably well. People acted surprised at all of this, but come on, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out. Read Truet Cathy's book, or even just listen to the music in the stores --- Christian music. And we're "surprised" about this? Come on.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
Both of which he is on the record as being against.

Big deal. I'm against paying unemployment insurance or social security tax as an employee, as a business owner, and as a business owner with employees. Doesn't mean I'm going to break the law or am breaking the law.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
The taste and presentation and price were all a perfect storm of awful.

I lol'd.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
It's been a moral dilemma for me lately. CFA is by far, without a doubt, my favorite fast food restaurant (the only one I'll eat at) but then they do this... ... ...

As I said above, anybody should have known about this to begin with. Certainly you have seen their values and their mission, or given where you grew up, even drove past or visited their HQs on a school trip. They don't hide anything. Yet they've done well. Quite well. Keep eating there and enjoy the food - you've supported them this far, why stop now?  

.
.
.

Now I guess I better say I have gay friends, blah blah blah I'm not a homophobe. I just don't let politics and food mix. If its good and safe, I'll eat it. I'm sure I've eaten at plenty of LGBT (BTW what does the (Q) mean now?) establishments, and despite my PERSONAL sexual preferences, I haven't complained. Nor have I complained about eating at establishments that go against my politics. Big deal.
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fr8mech
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
It's been a moral dilemma for me lately. CFA is by far, without a doubt, my favorite fast food restaurant (the only one I'll eat at) but then they do this... ... ...

It goes back to the thread on boycotts. Do you deprive yourself of, what is "by far, without a doubt, my favorite fast food restaurant..." based on this issue and thus, depriving CfA of any revenue you provide or do you enjoy a chicken sandwich and their, oh-so-yummy, waffle fries?
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fr8mech
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
I'm sure I've eaten at plenty of LGBT

I'm not sure I could differeniate an LGBT establishment from a non-LGBT establishment. I mean, is there a secret rainbow somewhere in the establishment to denote it as an LGBT establishment? Wink

I eat where I eat and don't let their politics, religion or culture get in the way.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
(BTW what does the (Q) mean now?)

One presumes 'queer'.

[Edited 2012-07-26 13:02:04]
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ALTF4
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
I eat where I eat and don't let their politics, religion or culture get in the way.

  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
I mean, is there a secret rainbow somewhere in the establishment to denote it as an LGBT establishment?

Actually, it wasn't secret. One intersection in town is known as the LGBT area and one quite excellent establishment has a rainbow flag out front. I don't care. It's good food. I'm not LGBTQWERTYASDFGLMNOP123 - nor do I quite understand that behavior - but good food is good food. We all know there are plenty of people in the world with political views quite polar opposite of our own, yet we still do business with companies that employ such people, are led by such people, etc. Too many people/things/ideas to disagree with to let it matter.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
smittyone
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Strange... I've never once met a person that didn't love their chicken!

I honestly don't even know what their food is like these days, but about 20 years ago I remember having some kind of pressed chicken scrap sandwich that could have gagged a maggot. And this is coming from someone who can and does eat nearly anything - see the White Castle thread!

(Looking at their menu online, it must have been the chicken salad. The other stuff looks good.)

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
I eat where I eat and don't let their politics, religion or culture get in the way.

Generally the same here unless the culture involves unannounced cannibalism, bans on handwashing or the like!
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:44 pm

Growing-up in Atlanta we drove down to the CFA all the time. They had a great breakfast----best waffles you ever ate.
They had everything from ice-box pies to fried pies. Flying back in to ATL late at night we could always stop in for a burger or chicken sandwich before heading north to home. Over the years I knew quite a few gay people who helped make Truett Cathy and his family a fortune and helped put Chick-Fil-A "on the map". They were and have been some of the best employees they ever had.

What a smack in the face for the Cathy family to have this "Christian" attitude towards all those loyal employees. Sure they have the right to say anything they want.
I have the right to never buy another thing from them, too.

I wouldn't even buy a dog biscuit from them at this point.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day. It said:

I like Christ

I do not like his Christians.

They are so unlike their Christ.

Amen.
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akiss20
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
(BTW what does the (Q) mean now?)

One presumes 'queer'

Questioning
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mt99
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
I'm sure I've eaten at plenty of LGBT (BTW what does the (Q) mean now?) establishments, and despite my PERSONAL sexual preferences, I haven't complained. Nor have I complained about eating at establishments that go against my politics. Big deal.

And that is probably because most of the time "Gay" establishments welcome straight people. Say - if you were to kiss your girlfriend or wife - no one would bat an eye. If 2 guys kiss at a "family restaurant" - they might not be looked upon as kindly.

Point being - that you say it not a "big deal" to eat in places which you don't agree with because simply, you don't have any skin in the game. You are treated well everywhere you go because of your sexuality. So for you there is no problem, and you forget that others do have a stake and are directly affected.

(Gay Bars not allowing Bachelorette Parties not withstanding   )
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DocLightning
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 18):
In this case I don't know what legal authority they have.

None at all. If CFA wants to open a store and they are willing to comply with local laws and regulations, then he can't stop them. He can raise a stink, but he can't stop them.

That said, when CFA learns that they have to offer benefits to same-sex spouses and that they will be under the microscope for discrimination complaints, I'm guessing that they will choose to go elsewhere.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
It's been a moral dilemma for me lately. CFA is by far, without a doubt, my favorite fast food restaurant (the only one I'll eat at) but then they do this... ... ...

Start "Chicken MD90" and out-do them?

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 26):
I'm not LGBTQWERTYASDFGLMNOP123

  

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 26):
nor do I quite understand that behavior

What behavior? You don't like sex? Ever been to a burlesque? A strip club? Honestly, leaving the cross-dressing aside, we don't do very much that straight folks don't.
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D L X
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:32 pm

First, you could have picked a better thread title. Perhaps one that actually described the event you're complaining about. (See Rule 1(l): "Please use the most relevant and descriptive title for your topics. The topic of your thread should therefore be as detailed as possible." http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/rules.main?confirm=no)

Second, it's not even an abuse of power to tell a person or a company that he does not want them coming into town.
 
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
If the public were against Chick-Fil-A, then they wouldn't be opening a store anyway, regardless of what Menino might think about it.

IMHO this event shows until recently the "locals" weren't aware that they'd be getting served morality if not prejudice along with their chicken....

As Doc points out, maybe CFA wasn't aware that they would be obliged to provide family benefits to same sex couples either.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
Read Truet Cathy's book, or even just listen to the music in the stores --- Christian music. And we're "surprised" about this? Come on.

CFA is almost unknown in the Northeast.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
None at all. If CFA wants to open a store and they are willing to comply with local laws and regulations, then he can't stop them. He can raise a stink, but he can't stop them.

You may be right by the letter of the law, but if Menino is opposed, they are fools to go forward. Like it or not, pretty much every city employee owes their job to the patronage system, and Menino has been mayor for pretty much forever.
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):

BTW, I ate at Chick-Fil-A once 12 years ago. It was awful. The taste and presentation and price were all a perfect storm of awful.

You aren't missing much. Greasy and somewhat rubbery chicken with sad looking shriveled pickle chips between two pieces of bun. The waffle fries are ok. I only ever go there if I'm with a group of people that want to eat there.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 2):
Normally I find your posts like nails on the chalkboard

Thank you, I aim to please. Oh wait, no I don't. Carry on...

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 7):
For instance, if I privately owned a restaurant and openly stated that one of my core beliefs was the superiority of the white race and the critical importance of maintaining racial purity (these are NOT my beliefs LOL), would/should my establishment be welcome? Would non-white people and/or interracial couples think that was acceptable?

Whether they thought it was acceptable or not is irrelevant... you could be serving a McHitler with a large side of Vichy fries and a glass of Goebbelsade, if it meets health and safety regulations there is nothing you (or any lected politician) can do about it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Bingo. At least in MA, however, Chick-fil-A will need to recognize same-sex marriages among their employees and provide benefits accordingly. The mayor could have simply made that clear.

He could have, but he didn't, because that was not his point. His point is he is another entrenched politician on a power trip clamoring for powers he doesn't have. Must have seen too many Hugo Chavez TV specials.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
If the mayor of Boston says his opinion is he will not allow CFA to open, why is that opinion an issue? Are elected officials not allowed to have opinions?

I would respond but SmittyOne has already thoroughly schooled you on this.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
While Boston in the past has had its share of prejudiced people, they've more or less died off.

BS... lived there for two years and there is absolutely no lack of ignorant, intolerant people. They just don't think they are. Case in point - Menino.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
As I recall, the 'will of the people' in NY was that a mosque not be built near ground zero, but Bloomberg and gang kept pushing it.

Screw that, at least now we know that the "will of the people" is always to be respected regardless (iunless, of course, the people is the voters of California and the will is Proposition 8). I am sure that will be an argument that will come in handy.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
I'm not sure I could differeniate an LGBT establishment from a non-LGBT establishment.

You have clearly never been to Hell's Kitchen...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
I mean, is there a secret rainbow somewhere in the establishment to denote it as an LGBT establishment? 

At least the ones near me, the male waiters in the tight pink t-shirts with "bitch" written on them is usually a give-away. Anyway, the food is usually pretty good.

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
Second, it's not even an abuse of power to tell a person or a company that he does not want them coming into town.

Read the articles - he did not say he did not want them coming into town. He said he would not allow them to come into town. Very, very different things.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
As Doc points out, maybe CFA wasn't aware that they would be obliged to provide family benefits to same sex couples either.

Wait, fast food chains provide benefits?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
You may be right by the letter of the law, but if Menino is opposed, they are fools to go forward. Like it or not, pretty much every city employee owes their job to the patronage system, and Menino has been mayor for pretty much forever.

With the free ammunition Menino just gave Chick-Fil-A's lawyers, with a good enough lawyer they could be serving up Fried Cockroach Sandwich and the City of Boston would still have to go out of their way to prove they are not just harassing a business.
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):
Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
Second, it's not even an abuse of power to tell a person or a company that he does not want them coming into town.

Read the articles - he did not say he did not want them coming into town. He said he would not allow them to come into town. Very, very different things.

Right.


Here's the ACTUAL letter from Menino:

http://boston.eater.com/uploads/meninolttrPicture-5.jpg

Care to rephrase your argument?
 
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:39 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 36):
Here's the ACTUAL letter from Menino:

Yes, I saw the letter. There is also the interview he gave the Boston Herald... Even civil rights lawyers, not usually the more tolerant bunch towards conservative opinions, are tripping over themselves to represent Chick-Fil-A on this. Menino is already trying to chicken out.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/reg...page=1&listingType=Loc#articleFull
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:00 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
The difference here is that he has the public on his side, so one can argue he's doing the will of the people.

It doesn't matter. Keeping a fast food business from opening because of the owner's beliefs is against the law.

The "public" has no word on that other than their choice of not patronising the place once it's open.
 
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
They are basically publicly admitting to abusing the power entrusted in them by arbitrarily targeting a specific business because they don't like it, at the very least an impeachable offense if not a criminal act
Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
When an elected government official can come out and say something like this publicly without any repercussion whatsoever, just imagine the untold damage your garden variety faceless bureaucrat with a grudge can inflict.
Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
So it's just hot air coming out of a politician, which is nothing new.

Mir's right. Menino has not blocked any Chick-fil-a restaurant from starting up in Boston---so there is actually no cause of action. And the letter did not say that he would block them from opening a restaurant. He said it would be an insult for Chick-fil-a to do so. "urge you to back out" does not equate to "I will stop you from opening a restaurant."

This just a politician trying to gain points with the electorate by acting like a perceived moral crusader. Find the random (straw) boogeyman and rally against him.

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
I thought it was a pretty stupid thing for the CEO to say - unless he's been asleep for twenty years he must have known there would be backlash

Yep. He's only hurting his own company. He made an issue over something that wasn't an issue before (although plenty of people knew about the company's political contributions).

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 8):
Well, the only way it could be a crime is if it actually happens, which it hasn't

Again, there's no cause of action right now--just an exercise of free speech by a politician to counter the free speech exercised by a citizen.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
CFA is almost unknown in the Northeast.

Heck, there isn't even one in Washington DC (Although we have a food truck).
 
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):
His point is he is another entrenched politician on a power trip clamoring for powers he doesn't have.

I think CFA will find that he does have enough powers to make their life so miserable that they will regret not working things out with the Mayor.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):
BS... lived there for two years and there is absolutely no lack of ignorant, intolerant people. They just don't think they are. Case in point - Menino.
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):
Wait, fast food chains provide benefits?

Uhm, yeah. Not every CFA employee is an entry level minimum wage part time worker, but you knew that already.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):
With the free ammunition Menino just gave Chick-Fil-A's lawyers, with a good enough lawyer they could be serving up Fried Cockroach Sandwich and the City of Boston would still have to go out of their way to prove they are not just harassing a business.
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
Menino is already trying to chicken out.

Chicken out, eh?

I see what you've done there...

In any case, he's a Boston politician.

Surely he's made the political calculation in his head about saying nothing on this issue, vs bashing CFA, and you can see he chose to bash CFA. He certainly has given CFA's lawyers a bunch of ammo, but that's the price of setting out the city policy loud and clear, and getting himself lots of positive press locally. The legal ammo means nothing in a Boston courthouse, certainly not enough to matter in Menino's political calculation. If CFA takes the city to court, all they will get in return is a much more angry customer base, and next to no hope of a positive outcome.

Since you say you were in Boston for two years, certainly you know Menino is not going to be writing memos telling city employees to make life miserable for any CFA establishment that tries to open in the city. What he's already done has sent the unmistakeable message loud and clear to all city employees.

The current "chickening out" phase (love it!) is just to stop giving lawyers more ammunition. At this point he has done has already sent out the message, and there's no need to do more of it.

Seems to me you weren't paying much attention to politics in your two years in Boston. All you had to do was tune your radio to the Howie Carr show or read the Herald and you'd be much better informed on the topic. I wish the situation was different, but it just is not. Decades if not centuries of the Boston political system do not change over night.
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):

Whether they thought it was acceptable or not is irrelevant... you could be serving a McHitler with a large side of Vichy fries and a glass of Goebbelsade, if it meets health and safety regulations there is nothing you (or any lected politician) can do about it.

LOL.

Just to be clear, this was a rhetorical question! Not planning to sell Mussolini Milkshakes or anything...
 
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 30):
So for you there is no problem, and you forget that others do have a stake and are directly affected.

Yep, I know. I don't have skin in the game on this one. Nor do I in most things, actually. I just like stirring the pot and pretending I do have a stake, when in reality I only have a steak. And no, I don't forget that others do have a stake.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
sex

What's that?

 
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:46 pm

So, I'm assuming that everybody crying foul on Chick-fil-a here is also not patronizing other companies that have similar views? I would only expect the best from those on this site, so don't be hypocrites or have double standards.

Yes?
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):

Wait, fast food chains provide benefits?

To management-level personnel, yes.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 35):

Read the articles - he did not say he did not want them coming into town. He said he would not allow them to come into town. Very, very different things.

Please quote the mayor's letter at the part where it says that. Because I've read it very carefully and it doesn't. Or did you not bother to read it?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):

Surely he's made the political calculation in his head about saying nothing on this issue, vs bashing CFA, and you can see he chose to bash CFA. He certainly has given CFA's lawyers a bunch of ammo, but that's the price of setting out the city policy loud and clear, and getting himself lots of positive press locally. The legal ammo means nothing in a Boston courthouse, certainly not enough to matter in Menino's political calculation. If CFA takes the city to court, all they will get in return is a much more angry customer base, and next to no hope of a positive outcome.

CFA can hire all the lawyers they like, but they can't prove a tort, they can't prove a violation of their rights, and they can't prove damages, and so they will lose.

And with the way public opinion about gay marriage is in MA, it can only help Menino. I oppose what he did, but I'll grant it may have been more shrewd than I thought.
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
Please quote the mayor's letter at the part where it says that. Because I've read it very carefully and it doesn't. Or did you not bother to read it?

He did not say it was in the letter. It is in the article:
Alderman Joe Moreno said Wednesday that unless the company comes up with a written anti-discrimination policy, Chick-fil-A will not open its first free-standing restaurant in the city as it plans to do.

Last week, Boston Mayor Thomas Menino told the Boston Herald he would block Chick-fil-A from opening a restaurant in the city.

Moreno said holding up construction would be as simple as refusing to introduce an ordinance to subdivide the land where Chick-fil-A wants to build.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
CFA can hire all the lawyers they like, but they can't prove a tort, they can't prove a violation of their rights, and they can't prove damages, and so they will lose.

I think they do have a tort. Both the mayor and the alderman are on the record as saying they oppose the restaurant because of CfA's political/cultural/religious position.
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 43):
So, I'm assuming that everybody crying foul on Chick-fil-a here is also not patronizing other companies that have similar views? I would only expect the best from those on this site, so don't be hypocrites or have double standards.

Such as all aviation geeks' favorite burger joint?



That being said. I love Chick-Fil-A, I love In-N-Out.
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
Alderman Joe Moreno said Wednesday that unless the company comes up with a written anti-discrimination policy, Chick-fil-A will not open its first free-standing restaurant in the city as it plans to do.

Again, this is state law and city law. There is no grounds for a suit. CFA is not banned from opening in Boston; they are quite welcome to open in Boston *IF* they come up with a written anti-discrimination policy. You can't sue the government for making you follow a law. And I'm pretty sure the "it's my religious belief to discriminate in my business" argument got knocked down back in the '60's with the Civil Rights Act.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
I think they do have a tort. Both the mayor and the alderman are on the record as saying they oppose the restaurant because of CfA's political/cultural/religious position.

Be that as it may, their political/cultural/religious position is ILLEGAL as for conducting a for-profit business. If they want to run a church, then they may discriminate, but they may not make a profit and they probably can't sell Waffle Fries, either.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 46):
Such as all aviation geeks' favorite burger joint?

From In-N-Out Burger's official policies:

Quote:
In-N-Out Burger is committed to providing a work environment that is free of harrassment and discrimination. In keeping with this commitment, In-N-Out Burger maintains a strict policy prohibiting all forms of unlawful harrassment, including sexual harrassment, and harrassment based on national origin, ancestry, citizenship, race, color, religion, gender, sexual orientation, military service, pregnancy status, age, physical disability (including HIV and AIDS), mental disability, medical condition, gender identity, or any other characteristic protected by state and federal law.

(emphasis added)

In-N-Out is owned by a family that is Christian. The small, cryptically-placed bible verse references (not texts) are as close as they get to prosyletizing. The only theme that seems to recur in the verses is belief in God. Fair enough. I have no problem with Christians. I have a BIG problem with hateful bigots who want to use religion --whatever religion it may be-- to justify their hateful bigotry.
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:46 pm

I would love to see any of these politicians try to ban Chick-Fil-A in any of their cities for social reasons. I would be amusing to watch. I am sure they know that they can't do what they are saying, they are just saying it. Honestly even though this may be bad press Chick-Fil-A's main market is in smaller towns and in the south. They are getting a lot of free press now and will probably be even more intrigued to open up in Boston and Chicago and I guarantee you those locations will do great. Its food.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
It is an abuse and maybe in theory a crime, but in the case of Boston, no jury would ever convict.

Rightly or wrongly, it's just how things are done in Beantown.


This is a type of case that the final decision would be decided by judges and have nothing to do with a jury. If the Boston judges want to not follow the law and the state judges too then the Supreme Court would likely take it. But I doubt it will ever go to court because the politicians can't be that dumb, right?

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 46):
That being said. I love Chick-Fil-A, I love In-N-Out.


Same here, they are cooking and giving me food not teaching me core values. As long as the food is good and safe that is all I care about. Not that I think Chick-Fil-A should be on the same level as In-N-Out in any category. Going to LA in a few weeks, can't wait to get some In-N-Out! 
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RE: How Is This Abuse Of Power Not A Crime?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:13 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
I think they do have a tort. Both the mayor and the alderman are on the record as saying they oppose the restaurant because of CfA's political/cultural/religious position.

I searched bostonherald.com and got the following line: "Menino kicked up the coast-to-coast ruckus when he told the Herald last week “it will be very difficult” for Chick-fil-A to get licenses for a restaurant in Boston".

And the letter he wrote said "I urge you to back out of your plans to locate in Boston.”

Not much meat on the bones, says I.

I'm sure a court case could be filed on the basis of this, but it's far too little to prove the city or Menino actually did something that caused the city to not treat CFA equally. If you had a memo or a taped phone call to the planning board telling them to withhold licenses it'd be a different case entirely.
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