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Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:25 pm

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2.../microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer

Pretty damning stuff, top to bottom:

Quote:

The story of Microsoft’s lost decade could serve as a business-school case study on the pitfalls of success. For what began as a lean competition machine led by young visionaries of unparalleled talent has mutated into something bloated and bureaucracy-laden, with an internal culture that unintentionally rewards managers who strangle innovative ideas that might threaten the established order of things.

Lots of talk of a ranking system that lead to employees sabotaging other employees, and after the Internet Bust, huge resentment between the boomer haves and buster have-nots, and stodgy managers, starting with Gates and Ballmer, making everything fit into the Windows/Office framework. Points out that the iPhone didn't exist as a product five years ago, but now brings in more revenue than every Microsoft product combined, yet Microsoft had quite a lead in handhelds with Windows CE, and had an e-book project in 1998 that could have been a world beater.
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Aesma
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:57 pm

Microsoft even invented the smartphone more than 10 years ago (I had one) but didn't believe in it enough.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Klaus
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Microsoft even invented the smartphone more than 10 years ago (I had one) but didn't believe in it enough.

No, the first products approaching a smartphone came from other sources even prior to that, notably the Nokia Communicator series.

Microsoft just attempted to steamroll what they saw emerging in the market already with their standard Windows UI. And until the iPhone and iPad finally proved them wrong to an extent even they could no longer ignore, they kept trying to ram the same UI into every category by force.

Even Windows 8 is yet another attempt at that same strategy, just modified by saddling the regular Windows UI with am additional, but still separate touch UI.

They've never realized that some caytegories may actually need to be different for valid reasons – they are still chasing Gate's old obsession with forcing Windows into absolutely everything, with force if necessary.

We'll see whether the latest attempt will fare any better than all its predecessors.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
Microsoft just attempted to steamroll what they saw emerging in the market already with their standard Windows UI. And until the iPhone and iPad finally proved them wrong to an extent even they could no longer ignore, they kept trying to ram the same UI into every category by force.

One point the article makes is that there were many within M$ who wanted to take a non-Windows approach first for the e-reader and then WinCE, but were smacked down by internal heavyweights who had made their fame with Windows, and indeed in the case of the e-reader, the person was Gates himself.
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Klaus
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
One point the article makes is that there were many within M$ who wanted to take a non-Windows approach first for the e-reader and then WinCE, but were smacked down by internal heavyweights who had made their fame with Windows, and indeed in the case of the e-reader, the person was Gates himself.

Yes, the dysfunction comes from the top and it always has, not just since Ballmer came into control.
 
Ken777
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:07 am

I believe that the failures of MS has been more public because Steve Jobs returned to Apple and started innovating again. And Jobs had some really talented people like Jonathan Ive who he really word well with.

Toss in the OS work Jobs had done with NeXT and MS had a competitor who was going to blow past them - and no one at MS really seemed to understand that.

IMO MS would not have had a lost decade if Apple had not had an incredible decade. That has pushed so much in tech today and MS is still looking around like a lost kid.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
I believe that the failures of MS has been more public because Steve Jobs returned to Apple and started innovating again. And Jobs had some really talented people like Jonathan Ive who he really word well with.

If you read the article then you would know that Apple fell into the same debacle that MS is in. They were just lucky in the sense that they got Jobs back. If you followed Apple you would know that he was constantly at odds with the management staff. They were just like MS busy having meetings, creating paper work, pitting the employees against each other and discouraging progress. (kind of like our government)
Jobs was an innovator and created markets by encouraging and supporting ideas which was a 180 degrees out of phase with the management ideals when he returned.

The article was an interesting read, particular note about CE and Longhorn which were speculated (leaked) about their innovation in publications during their development stages but never got off the campus so to speak. I guess we know why now.

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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Toss in the OS work Jobs had done with NeXT and MS had a competitor who was going to blow past them - and no one at MS really seemed to understand that.

One of M$'s strengths was that the hardware was growing faster than the software, and M$ was in the position of just keeping up with it.

NeXT was in the position where the software was really more than the HW could deal with, and they had to wait for the HW to grow.

The hardware really didn't catch up till Apple made the move to Intel hardware, IMHO.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
IMO MS would not have had a lost decade if Apple had not had an incredible decade. That has pushed so much in tech today and MS is still looking around like a lost kid.

I think the point is that M$ would be quite happy if the world had not changed at all over the last decade. They had people in-house who saw a lot of the same trends as did M$, but those people weren't empowered to do anything about it.

Also M$ has had great amounts of cash available to do acquisitions etc once a trend/threat was spotted, and have done very poorly at that too. Note the comments about Bing chewing through $8B with naught to show for it. Zune is a similar story, WinCE -> WinPhone another.

This just isn't the same company that ate IBM's lunch during the MS-DOS/Win3/Win95 days. It took big brass cajones for M$ to take IBM's money for OS2 work while they were in the background coming up with Win3. Those cajones are long gone.

Reading Gate's lement that he finally realized Zune would not catch up to the iPod because they totally whiffed on the music store part was pathetic. All the money poured into MSN is another sad exercise.

They actually wiffed on the internet itself. Their strategy was LanMan to compete with Novell and MSN to compete with AOL. They didn't see the Internet coming at all. They were just lucky that the key bits and pieces (TCP/IP stack, browser, web server) were something that could be acquired easily. Keep in mind that TCP/IP was not even enabled by default in Win95!

Quoting okie (Reply 6):
The article was an interesting read, particular note about CE and Longhorn which were speculated (leaked) about their innovation in publications during their development stages but never got off the campus so to speak.

Yes, it's remarkable that they really have not updated their core technology in a decade.

Win7 isn't much of an upgrade on Win2k if you look at the tech.

It took them two tries (Vista, 7) to get Aero to be workable at all.

It seems we wil never see WinFS.

Seems M$ will just grind on with Windows, Office and Exchange as flagship products.

It seems to me all three of these can be undermined if not replaced or just bypassed.
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Klaus
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
This just isn't the same company that ate IBM's lunch during the MS-DOS/Win3/Win95 days. It took big brass cajones for M$ to take IBM's money for OS2 work while they were in the background coming up with Win3. Those cajones are long gone.

That was more a huge amount of luck when IBM totally failed to grasp what was going on when they left the software side to MS than a brilliant achievement of MS. Without IBM's crucial mistake MS would never been able to ascend to the same position. Had the IBM management at the time understood that the PC was not just some irrelevant and temporary stopgap product as they thought, but the mainstream of the future, things would have turned out very differently (even the hardware would have looked differently).
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:00 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
That was more a huge amount of luck when IBM totally failed to grasp what was going on when they left the software side to MS than a brilliant achievement of MS.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
Had the IBM management at the time understood that the PC was not just some irrelevant and temporary stopgap product as they thought, but the mainstream of the future, things would have turned out very differently (even the hardware would have looked differently).

I'd say it was that IBM's management was institutionally incapable of accepting that the mainstream future might be based on the PC, just as M$ management was not capable of seeing the role that the portable device and the music/movie/app store would have. For the decision makers, M$ was all about PCs and shrink-wrapped software just like IBM was all about multi-million dollar mainframes.
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Klaus
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
I'd say it was that IBM's management was institutionally incapable of accepting that the mainstream future might be based on the PC, just as M$ management was not capable of seeing the role that the portable device and the music/movie/app store would have.

Goup think limited to the status quo in both cases.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
For the decision makers, M$ was all about PCs and shrink-wrapped software just like IBM was all about multi-million dollar mainframes.

IBM was so preoccupied with keeping the PC crippled enough to not endanger their mainframe business that they never understood the implications.

Not too different from MS being so obsessed with Windows and Office that they were incapable of understanding how the market shifted under them.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
and MS is still looking around like a lost kid.

I disagree with this. WP8 and Windows 8 are both great products and in my opinion more user friendly than anything else on the market. WP works very well and unlike iOS and Android, it doesn't need a lot of hardware to run smoothly. Even a single core WP can compete with a quadcore SGSIII let alone any iPhone device. This demonstrates how well MS has programmed WP.

I cannot wait for WP8.

By the way, try to search for the 'smoked by windows phone' campaign. WP is faster at most things compared to any other device on the market. MS are clearly on their way back.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:38 pm

Why do people make such a big deal out of all of this?
Honestly, no one is claiming Microsoft hasn't had problems in the last decade adjusting to the changing industry. Why is everyone so insistent on beating a dead horse. The fact is the changes they've made the last year or so have been remarkable and with Windows 8, Windows Phone, and Xbox they are offering unprecedented integration between all their core products but so many people are so far up Apple's (and Google's) ass that they go out of their way to trash anything and everything Microsoft does. At best they'll give backhanded praise. At worst they will say that every single thing they do is crap which no backing. So many people want them to fail because they resent things they did 15 years ago but have no problems supporting Apple and Google who are arguably as "evil" now as Microsoft was back then.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting okie (Reply 6):
Jobs was an innovator and created markets by encouraging and supporting ideas which was a 180 degrees out of phase with the management ideals when he returned.

Which is why senior management knew they need to get Jobs back. Jobs was a unique person in the tech industry. Looking at his efforts to bring about the original Mac you can see an innovator who could see where the market "could be" with products like the Mac.

It took Apple a while (almost too long) to understand that they needed Jobs back. Even then the Board was wary of some of the stuff Jobs did.

I believe that Jobs would agree that his time outside of Apple was important for his successes when he returned. It added some business skills as well as developing the core enhancements to Unix that would end up as OS X.

After Jobs returned the comparison of Apple and MS took an entirely new turn. Starting with the first iMac Apple planted the seeds that would move the company forward. Reading the book on Jobs you see the man and the company moving forward with new approaches. There were MP3 players before the iPod, but the iPod was the result of far more focus on the customer than the competition.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 11):
WP8 and Windows 8 are both great products and in my opinion more user friendly than anything else on the market.

Windows got lost with Longhorn. I'm happy that the company is delivering a good product now, but they did open the door at the consumer level for the competition and companies like Apple have taken advantage of MS's slip.

We'll see how fast corporate adoption is, That is the core issue for MS these days as the consumer market has really been split.

Apple doesn't have that level of IT demands. A lot of companies buy enough Macs to keep their iOS apps current. The odd thing here is that there will be a lot of strong MS shops that now have iOS and Android sections simply to serve customers.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 11):
WP is faster at most things compared to any other device on the market

That's nice, but pulling customers away from their iOS or Android devices is tougher than having a short time speed advantage.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 12):
The fact is the changes they've made the last year or so have been remarkable and with Windows 8, Windows Phone, and Xbox they are offering unprecedented integration between all their core products but so many people are so far up Apple's (and Google's) ass that they go out of their way to trash anything and everything Microsoft does.

Microsoft's problem is that everything they do is conceptualized starting from the sales and marketing perspective. From that perspective they have always decreed that their Windows advantage was to be leveraged into the other markets and that that would automatically confer them the same kind of dominance there as well.

Even Windows 8 is designed by marketing and sales, not by actual product people – it is a forced marriage of technically distinct platforms which is forced on users on their existing platform in the hope that that would provide the intended leverage. It is not designed as the greatest possible product and then marketed after that (the way Apple is operating) but it is a marketing concept from top to bottom with actual real-life usability just being an afterthought.

That kind of thing rarely ends well, particularly when there are viable alternatives.

We'll see how it goes.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Windows got lost with Longhorn. I'm happy that the company is delivering a good product now, but they did open the door at the consumer level for the competition and companies like Apple have taken advantage of MS's slip.

Are you talking about Windows Vista? In that case I agree with you.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
That's nice, but pulling customers away from their iOS or Android devices is tougher than having a short time speed advantage.

True. Will be interesting to see how it all goes. While WP7.5 not seems 100% mature, WP8 looks very good and I am sure that it will become a strong competitor to Android and iOS within 1-2 years. It definitely deserves it. MS cannot afford to lose this market, so they will invest as much money in WP as needed. That is the price of being late though.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 12):
The fact is the changes they've made the last year or so have been remarkable and with Windows 8, Windows Phone, and Xbox they are offering unprecedented integration between all their core products but so many people are so far up Apple's (and Google's) ass that they go out of their way to trash anything and everything Microsoft does.

Right, let's just ignore nine out of the last ten years, presuming the upcoming year comes up as rosy as you seem to think it will.

I think if you read the article (all six pages of it) that it is far from a shallow Windows-bashing exercise.

Funny you should bring up Xbox. Has that been a good strategic move? They find themselves locked into a cutthroat business competing with Sony and Nintendo, losing money on the hardware and hoping to make it up on games and subscription fees. They have a presence in the living room, but it seems they haven't been able to do that much with it.

Now, if they had done something that would capture the living room, I'd be more impressed.

Media center PCs seemed to be promising, but the idea of having a noisy PC or paying the $$$ for a premium quieter PC was off-putting, and then not having much confidence in the usability and stability and maintenance issues related to the beast kept me away.

If M$ could get their tech embedded in the TV, so it's the first thing you see when the TV goes on, then they'd have something.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
Even Windows 8 is designed by marketing and sales, not by actual product people – it is a forced marriage of technically distinct platforms which is forced on users on their existing platform in the hope that that would provide the intended leverage. It is not designed as the greatest possible product and then marketed after that (the way Apple is operating) but it is a marketing concept from top to bottom with actual real-life usability just being an afterthought.

To a large extent, Windows 7 is Windows 95 with nicer skins, especially as it relates to user experience.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Windows got lost with Longhorn. I'm happy that the company is delivering a good product now, but they did open the door at the consumer level for the competition and companies like Apple have taken advantage of MS's slip.

Are you talking about Windows Vista? In that case I agree with you.

Vista is a subset of what Longhorn was supposed to be.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
True. Will be interesting to see how it all goes. While WP7.5 not seems 100% mature, WP8 looks very good and I am sure that it will become a strong competitor to Android and iOS within 1-2 years. It definitely deserves it. MS cannot afford to lose this market, so they will invest as much money in WP as needed. That is the price of being late though.

A main point of the article is that money isn't the issue. M$ has had the money all along. They were even developing many of the right technologies, but the system would squelch anything that didn't fit into the Windows/PC framework. Now they are in the position of having to play serious catchup against very strong and entrenched competition.

The real question is what products are they working on today that could dominate an entire market segment much like the iPod, iPad and iPhone have?
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
The real question is what products are they working on today that could dominate an entire market segment much like the iPod, iPad and iPhone have?

Well, they still have a solid grip in the laptop/desktop market. With hardware manufacturers producing computers in different price ranges, MS will have the advantage to reach out to those that are not able to pay the premium price for an Apple computer. Another advantage is all the existing software for Windows, including MS Office.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 17):
Well, they still have a solid grip in the laptop/desktop market. With hardware manufacturers producing computers in different price ranges, MS will have the advantage to reach out to those that are not able to pay the premium price for an Apple computer. Another advantage is all the existing software for Windows, including MS Office.

It's not clear what their fate is in this space, either.

It's clear they have a lot of inertia around Office, Exchange, Windows apps, etc but all can be undermined by the move to web/cloud apps, Andriod and free/open OSes, etc.

It doesn't seem to be a growth space to me, just a cash cow that has some interesting points of vulnerability.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Klaus
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 17):
With hardware manufacturers producing computers in different price ranges, MS will have the advantage to reach out to those that are not able to pay the premium price for an Apple computer.

The flip side is that Microsoft is increasingly relegated to the bargain segment where it is difficult to achieve decent margins on the one hand and which tends to be the rear guard development-wise as well.

It is hard or impossible to lead the market just from there.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 17):
Another advantage is all the existing software for Windows, including MS Office.

Office software is more and more becoming a commodity, with fewer and fewer people actually needing the MS Office package and alternatives gaining ground, however incrementally. But this is a receding product range as well.

Other than that? Games? Yes, but that's not a sure bet either. Game producers are increasingly looking at other platforms as well.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
Are you talking about Windows Vista? In that case I agree with you.

No, I'm talking about something that came before Vista. Well, sort of "came" as it could not be brought to market, wasting years.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
WP8 looks very good and I am sure that it will become a strong competitor to Android and iOS within 1-2 years.

But where will iOS and Android be in 1 - 2 years?

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
MS cannot afford to lose this market, so they will invest as much money in WP as needed.

It does take money for MS to get there, but it also takes some talented people, especially at the top. I'd also note that the main partner MS has on the mobile side (Nokia) has just shut it's last domestic factory.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 17):
Another advantage is all the existing software for Windows, including MS Office.

Office is pretty much a commodity now. I first use Word and Excel in the mid-80s on a Mac. Took MS until '95 to even come close. Now days the competition is from free to $20 per module. Not a good sign for MS, just as Apple's $20 price for a full new OS X that can be used for the whole family. Not a family Pack, just $20 for the entire family. Tough competition out there for MS.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:33 am

Why do people keep on saying that Microsoft had a lost decade? Well it is still bigger than Apple etc. I bet they are still the largest IT company on earth?
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:37 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 21):
Why do people keep on saying that Microsoft had a lost decade? Well it is still bigger than Apple etc. I bet they are still the largest IT company on earth?

No, they have already fallen behind Apple in most respects: market capitalizatin, revenue, profits, growth, market share in the mobile space etc. are all below Apple. Microsoft has been in a decade-long stagnation, not just, but also with regard to its share price.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=compare+microsoft+apple


There is effectively one major criterion where they still indubitably in the lead: The number of Windows installations by far exceeds the number of Mac OS installations. Unfortunately for Microsoft that is not a growth market any more and the pressure on their margins is increasing since they are increasingly losing the top of the market where the margins are good.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:36 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 21):
Why do people keep on saying that Microsoft had a lost decade? Well it is still bigger than Apple etc. I bet they are still the largest IT company on earth?

The article is pretty clear; it's far from a shallow cheap shot at M$. M$ really has not opened any new markets in the last decade, and is stagnating in the the markets they dominate, and shows no signs of getting back on the trajectory they used to have, and that Apple is currently on.
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:17 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
It doesn't seem to be a growth space to me, just a cash cow that has some interesting points of vulnerability.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Office software is more and more becoming a commodity, with fewer and fewer people actually needing the MS Office package and alternatives gaining ground, however incrementally. But this is a receding product range as well.

I agree. But let's see how Windows 8 will be received. It will be interesting to see if their new tablet Surface can rival the iPad and if W8 becomes succesful. It's hard to predict before W8 is actually released.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
But where will iOS and Android be in 1 - 2 years?

But where will WP be in 1-2 years?
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 24):
I agree. But let's see how Windows 8 will be received.

Is there a lot of mystery around that? I think the enthusiasts will load it (many have loaded the previews), and the press will chatter and there may be some nice things said, but I don't see a meaningful percentage of XP/2k/Vista/7 users rushing out to purchase an upgrade. Is there really a compelling reason for an upgrade?

We're supposed to see Office 2013 this year, and I also wonder if there is a compelling reason for an upgrade.

Our IT department just did a mass replacement of our Exchange servers, so I doubt there will be a lot of budget around to deploy the new W8 or Office. I think we're still on Office 2007 so it seems there isn't a huge rush to upgrade.

I just don't see the lines forming like we do for the various iProducts and indeed like we saw back in the days for Windows 95.
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
Is there really a compelling reason for an upgrade?

Perhaps not. But is there a compelling reason to switch to Android or iOS instead?

For the same reason you could ask if there is a compelling reason for people to upgrade their Macbook Pros, iPads, iPhones, etc.

Just yesterday I talked to a family member who has been using iPhones since 1st generation and he was not interested in an 'even better display' on iPhone 5 as rumored and he does not see any compelling reason to upgrade right now, based on current rumors.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 26):
But is there a compelling reason to switch to Android or iOS instead?

Most of Android or iOS incremental income is coming from new devices (mostly phones and tablets) and their app/media stores, whereas M$ at this point is more about getting corporate entities to upgrade existing platforms.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Klaus
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:33 pm

The issue with Windows 8 is that it is only somewhat attractive if there is really compelling tablet hardware which actually manages to be a good tablet and a good laptop at the same time and which makes the strange OS hybrid looking good.

For everybody else, Windows 8 is mainly a liability.

That is a hell of a gamble to be taken by a software company, which is primarily dependent on external hardware manufacturers who haven't exactly set the world on fire with their lackluster products in recent decades.

It is a theoretically interesting idea, just with not a lot of real substance behind it. And if the Surface hardware turns out to be neither a good tablet nor a good laptop, then what? Is there a plan B? I don't see one.

This has train wreck written all over it, but at least they've tried something.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:54 pm

Again, all I can say is that we have to wait and see how the release goes.

But you have some valid points of course.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 6):
If you read the article then you would know that Apple fell into the same debacle that MS is in. They were just lucky in the sense that they got Jobs back. If you followed Apple you would know that he was constantly at odds with the management staff. They were just like MS busy having meetings, creating paper work, pitting the employees against each other and discouraging progress. (kind of like our government)
Jobs was an innovator and created markets by encouraging and supporting ideas which was a 180 degrees out of phase with the management ideals when he returned.

One reason for management getting entrenched in a product line and not being able to see beyond their nose is that the company has usually invested a fortune building and cultivating that product line. It's hard to see anything beyond it when so much money has been invested into it, and it's still generating money. So of course they are going to quash anything internally that may threaten the cash cow. It's a common perception and management attitude, but it's been magnified with MS because they have been, in the past, so hugely successful and everyone's taken notice of their mis-steps of late.

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 12):
The fact is the changes they've made the last year or so have been remarkable and with Windows 8, Windows Phone, and Xbox they are offering unprecedented integration between all their core products but so many people are so far up Apple's (and Google's) ass that they go out of their way to trash anything and everything Microsoft does.

What MS has done in the past year is simply catch-up to what everyone else has been doing. While I'm sure Win8 will be good, and WinPhone is good, they are on par with what's already here. In the meantime, Apple and Google have not been sitting still.

I wonder what Thomas Penfield Jackson thinks now about his decision back in 2000 that Microsoft had to be split up into separate companies because it was just too monopolistic and would stifle competition? If only he could have seen just 7 years into the future.
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 24):
But let's see how Windows 8 will be received. It will be interesting to see if their new tablet Surface can rival the iPad and if W8 becomes succesful. It's hard to predict before W8 is actually released.

Surface will be going against both Apple's iPad and Android companies. And, of course, the range of software available.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 24):
But where will WP be in 1-2 years?

Coming out of Beta?         

Sorry. Shouldn't have said that. The Devil made me do it.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 26):
For the same reason you could ask if there is a compelling reason for people to upgrade their Macbook Pros, iPads, iPhones, etc.

On the Mac side, since the start of the Apple Stores there has been a "new to Apple" segment of sales that is 50% or more of sales. Since half of the store sales go to PC users Apple is benefitting from PC users upgrading to a Mac. Others will have older Macs (like my original G5 iMac) that want to upgrade. The main reason I want to upgrade to a new iMac is the difficulty the old G5 has handling the large jpeg files that digital cameras are producing these days.

On the iPad side, Apple has yet to scratch the surface of this potential market, especially if they bring out a smaller version in September.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 28):
And if the Surface hardware turns out to be neither a good tablet nor a good laptop, then what? Is there a plan B? I don't see one.

They will simply dump it, like the Zune, write off the loss and go on as nothing happened.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 30):
I wonder what Thomas Penfield Jackson thinks now about his decision back in 2000 that Microsoft had to be split up into separate companies because it was just too monopolistic and would stifle competition? If only he could have seen just 7 years into the future.

The direct threat of that plus the related incisions by the EU Commission effectively crippled Microsoft's capability to simply force itself into further markets; This made them walk very carefully for quite a few years until now. Unfortunately for them they never attempted to innovate out of the corner they found themselves being pushed into, until they felt they were under direct threat.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
They will simply dump it, like the Zune, write off the loss and go on as nothing happened.

The trouble is that this time it's not a marginal hobby on the side but their central product line on which everything else is built. If surface bombs, they still have Windows 8 hanging around their neck, and this could mean losing a lot of ground for them.

They are already acting in defense. Stumbling now could be a real problem.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:31 pm

This is very old news.

MS has a healthy business and lately, has executed software well. I find their recent software a pleasure to use.

Ten years ago, Apple was innovating and delivering like a god. Apple at one point had product that was 5-7 (10?) years ahead of MSFT. It was ridiculous. The OP's article describes that era (2002-2005).

It was a neat era. Time marches on. The next big thing is just over the horizon.

Many successful corporations enter dysfunction because there is no pressing mission left to achieve. It happened at MS. It will happen at Apple. These things happen. Poverty and hunger and agility are the main keys to innovation and success in IT. That, and MSFT has a uniquely bad CEO.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:06 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
No, they have already fallen behind Apple in most respects: market capitalizatin, revenue, profits, growth, market share in the mobile space etc. are all below Apple. Microsoft has been in a decade-long stagnation, not just, but also with regard to its share price.

Will they regain their former glory?

Microsoft is still larger in terms of assets right?

Bill Gates is so much richer than late Steve Jobs though
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 34):
Will they regain their former glory?

Stay tuned. Although I've never seen much "glory" at Microsoft before to begin with.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 34):
Microsoft is still larger in terms of assets right?

I don't think so.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 34):
Bill Gates is so much richer than late Steve Jobs though

Gates obsessed about money and power.
Jobs obsessed about products.

At least I know which of the two is more fun – both for oneself and for one's customers.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:40 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
WP8 looks very good and I am sure that it will become a strong competitor to Android and iOS within 1-2 years.

But where will iOS and Android be in 1 - 2 years?

Honestly? No one actually knows....

You know the saying (statement actually): "Past performance is not an indicator of future success."

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
(Nokia) has just shut it's last domestic factory.

Well that's a good thing. I mean Apple has NO domestic production of hardware and they seem to be doing OK.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 30):
What MS has done in the past year is simply catch-up to what everyone else has been doing. While I'm sure Win8 will be good, and WinPhone is good, they are on par with what's already here. In the meantime, Apple and Google have not been sitting still.

No, but as you state, MS is doing the right things and doing them relatively well currently (so far). We'll have to see how things continue. As Apple has shown, you can go down a long way and still come roaring back. Of course you can also just crash and burn. I think MS' execution of their "Surface" strategy (whatever it really is) will say A LOT, it is a big gamble.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 24):
But where will WP be in 1-2 years?

Coming out of Beta?

Along with Siri? 

Sorry, devil made me do it.  
.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
On the Mac side, since the start of the Apple Stores there has been a "new to Apple" segment of sales that is 50% or more of sales. Since half of the store sales go to PC users Apple is benefitting from PC users upgrading to a Mac.

Well part of the question there is: Is that Apple product replacing a PC item or is it "in addition too"?

But there is no denying that Apple has been executing fantastically and making big changes in the markets and growing and devouring market share. They are THE one that is leading the way and dictating the market and every likelihood of continuing to do so. Which is really great, they are a great company. .

Quoting Flighty (Reply 33):
That, and MSFT has a uniquely bad CEO.

Yeah, I really find myself surprised that he is still there. But I assume it is because:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 33):
MS has a healthy business and lately, has executed software well.

I guess he ain't doing all that poorly but I just don't think he is a good or "the right/best" CEO. But that is for others to decide, not me.

Tugg
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:44 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 35):
Stay tuned. Although I've never seen much "glory" at Microsoft before to begin with.

Really? It was the largest in terms of everything.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 35):
I don't think so.

Total asset wise are they still bigger?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 35):
Gates obsessed about money and power.
Jobs obsessed about products.

True
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:04 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 37):
Really? It was the largest in terms of everything.

In my book "glory" has to do with doing glorious things, not with just being larger.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 37):
Total asset wise are they still bigger?

Nope. Wolfram Alpha says $121.3B for Microsoft, $162.9B for Apple. They crossed a year ago.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=total+assets+apple+microsoft
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:16 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 35):
Gates obsessed about money and power.
Jobs obsessed about products.

Not really true, and you know it.

More like: Gates obsessed with helping other people and making a difference
Jobs: Only cares about his own ego.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx

Klaus, it is a shame that you are so damn biased towards Apple. We could have had a balanced and informative debate about these companies but every time we have to listen to your twisted view on the world.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 39):
More like: Gates obsessed with helping other people and making a difference

That's only a recent phenomena.

Microsoft in its heydey was certainly not obsessed with helping people, they were obsessed with crushing competitors as severely as possible, to the point they spent a lot of time in courts fighting off monopoly law suits.

Of course, many people feel that is what a corporation should be doing, but IMHO M$'s obsession crossed the line.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 39):
We could have had a balanced and informative debate about these companies but every time we have to listen to your twisted view on the world.

I don't think it's twisted.

Clearly Apple under Jobs was more product focused than Microsoft under Gates/Ballmer.

The article portrays Microsoft being more focused on business deals, especially under Ballmer, and I agree.

The interesting thing to consider is that while M$ in its earlier days managed to steal the PC business away from IBM, Jobs is not thought of as a business guy, but he pretty much managed to steal the music business away from the likes of Sony et al.

That's why I think an Apple TV could be a pivotal product - it could be the thing that gives Apple the upper hand on the internet movie/tv download business, not to mention the ability to run all kinds of interesting apps in HDTV resolution and form factor, front and center in our living rooms.

I have many widgets in my living room, but none of them are all that compelling. I have a TiVo which is a great DVR, but the apps it comes with are pretty weak, and there is no real way for me to choose other apps to download. The same is true for WD LIVE. Same for newer TVs and blu-rays with built-in apps, they're a static set of boring apps chosen based on what business relationships the vendor has with various media providers and sized/scaled to run on some very limited hardware.

Note the M$ media center PC could have been that product, but it's never hit critical mass. There's always been a lack of integration and performance from what I can see from the various reviews and from discussing it with one guy who put together his own rig. He had to go chasing down the right HDTV tuner, then the right drivers, then try out various wireless keyboard setups, then various ways to get TV directory info to use its DVR functions, etc. It was loud, slow, costly and quirky, which isn't what one wants in their living rooms. It was more of a science project than a product.

Maybe media center PCs have gotten better, but first impressions last, and it seems M$ wasn't willing to work with a small set of vendors to get it right before releasing it. Hopefully Surface will show that they've learned a lesson or two.
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 39):
Not really true, and you know it.

More like: Gates obsessed with helping other people and making a difference
Jobs: Only cares about his own ego.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages....aspx

Steve Jobs is dead, in case you missed it. But of course you're free to speculate about what he'd do in a presumable afterlife.   

What Bill and Melinda Gates are doing with their money since Bill's exit from Microsoft is similarly disconnected from how he conducted Business while he was still in charge.

In both cases my original statement had nothing to do with moral judgments anyway but with the discernible effects of each person's priorities on the respective companies' products and their users, and in both cases those effects persist.

Gates was known to be very interested in how things worked technically, but he never understood how actual users "worked" or what they might need. Correspondingly Microsoft's products are often technically competent internally, but when using them one can never shake the feeling of the machine being constantly annoyed about that dumb and irritating user not having a clue of what the machine needs.

Jobs did not have a very deep understanding of most technical details, but he obsessively prioritized the user's view of his products and could hold back or entirely scrap a product when he thought it was not quite finished in his view. Correspondingly, Apple's products are sometimes technically quirky and sometimes appear to be somewhat limited (at least at first sight), but when using them the impression usually is that the machine is quietly and effectively putting its support behind the user's intentions with as little fuss as possible.

When using technology, we do instinctively pick up on the attitude that went into its design. It is a somewhat subtle point and not that many people realize exactly where the differences come from, but the overall effect is quite noticeable.

Microsoft has always fought by all means to be or to become the inevitable incumbent whom users just couldn't avoid to deal with.

Apple, on the other hand, consistently tried to entice users to spend decent money for compelling products.

This explains why at Microsoft the priority was always on reaching market-strategic goals, with the products being just a means to that end, if not just an afterthought. Outright destroying or sabotaging the competition was more important than actually creating really compelling products.

Apple under Jobs always depended on the actual products far more than on market position (in part because they never had a controlling position), so they invested almost their entire efforts into the actual products; Success and profits were benefits when the products actually turned out to be compelling by themselves. If not, it could be painful.

Microsoft primarily depends on people being forced to use their products (mostly by corporate IT departments).

Apple primarily depends on people actually wanting to use their products.

It is telling that Apple has a much higher market share among self-using buyers than in total.

The trouble for Microsoft is that the market is shifting, and their business model is getting stale (eroding margins in the PC market being one of the long-term threats). They actually need to make inroads into Apple's business model. And after several high-profile failures, Windows 8 is their latest and by far biggest gamble.

With Steve Ballmer being largely oblivious to what it even takes to get there I wouldn't get my hopes up, but at least they are beginning to respond to their rearguard situation at long last.

Meanwhile Apple is on the offence in all active and attractive markets at this point; Even without Jobs they seem to be staying on his track.

Of course many observers still prefer voodoo explanations like "it's all just marketing!" (even though Apple actually does relatively little of that) over actual analysis, but the very real and very obvious differences between the two corporations are increasingly difficult to ignore.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 39):
Klaus, it is a shame that you are so damn biased towards Apple. We could have had a balanced and informative debate about these companies but every time we have to listen to your twisted view on the world.

That you don't agree with some of my views doesn't automatically make those "twisted".

The fact that Microsoft has been stagnating for years by now (which I'm apparently not the only one to take note of) and that Apple is already the highest-valued Company on earth and still keeps growing like a little startup (actually: like one of the few startups which actually are making money!) would suggest that I seeing substantial differences between the two may actually be a little closer to reality than you denying that those differences existed in the first place.

It is of course possible that I am just biased or deluded, but given that my views have historically tended to be pretty consistent with what actually happend further on it is also possible and maybe more plausible that I might actually have a point or two.

Nobody demands you to agree with me. A little more civility and respect would be nice, however.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 41):
Jobs did not have a very deep understanding of most technical details, but he obsessively prioritized the user's view of his products and could hold back or entirely scrap a product when he thought it was not quite finished in his view.

From what I've read, this is indeed true.

And as above, I wonder what some M$ products like Media Center PC would have been like if M$ had spent the time to do more integration and tuning of the product.

The article discusses how M$ took a 4 year R&D project to develop a stand-alone e-book reader and chopped it down to a 2 year project to get an e-reader app on a Windows desktop. Another opportunity lost.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 41):
Nobody demands you to agree with me. A little more civility and respect would be nice, however.

Agreed.
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
That's only a recent phenomena.

So? How is that relevant? If the foundation was founded yesterday, then what?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
Microsoft in its heydey was certainly not obsessed with helping people, they were obsessed with crushing competitors as severely as possible, to the point they spent a lot of time in courts fighting off monopoly law suits.

Is Apple any different today? They sue every competitor as much as possible.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 41):
In both cases my original statement had nothing to do with moral judgments anyway but with the discernible effects of each person's priorities on the respective companies' products and their users, and in both cases those effects persist.

How do you know? Can you read their minds? The more Apple becomes dominant, the more they look like MS did in the old days. Now the roles have changed a bit and MS is in my opinion more innovating than Apple. But of course nothing that makes Apple look bad in any way is true in any way according to you.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
So? How is that relevant? If the foundation was founded yesterday, then what?

Suppose I was a self-centered greedy jerk who ruthlessly acquired wealth and power for 45 years and once I had it all I spent five years giving it away - are you saying the only relevant part is the last five years?

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
Is Apple any different today? They sue every competitor as much as possible.

M$ gets sued by governments for monopoly practices.

Apple sues competitors to protect their inventions.

Two different things in my book.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
Now the roles have changed a bit and MS is in my opinion more innovating than Apple.

Feel free to say that, but a fold-able keyboard on a tablet just isn't the height of innovation to me.
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
Is Apple any different today? They sue every competitor as much as possible.

No, they don't. There are no suits against Microsoft, for instance, in keeping with the topic.

Which has to do with the fact that Microsoft has taken great care to either license or avoid Apple's IP. And vice versa. Microsoft's very different Metro UI is one expression of that.

Google, Samsung and others have never bothered to do either one while at the same time closely copying the iPhone and the iPad down to minute details, hoping they could just wing it once they gained enough market share.

As it turns out, they can't.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
How do you know? Can you read their minds?

What gives you that idea? I am talking about what can be observed from available statements and existing products.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
The more Apple becomes dominant, the more they look like MS did in the old days.
MS rarely went the IP litigation route in their machinations (not least because of very realistic fears of waking the regulators).

They sabotaged their own APIs to cripple competing products, bought would-be rivals and canned their products, used backstabbing via large customers to kick others out of markets, distorted established standards so they would only work well with MS products any more and used their market position in the desktop market to muscle into adjacent ones despite weaker products, which ultimately got the EU Commission interested enough to issue massive fines and keep them under tight scrutiny from then on.

None of these tactics have yet been seen from Apple.

And the mostly docile Microsoft of today is primarily a result of harsh regulation, not of any kind of insight in Redmond. I would not be surprised if Bill Gates lost his interest in Microsoft when his favourite tactics stopped being feasible, since the creation of actually great products was never his forte (or even within reach).

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
Now the roles have changed a bit and MS is in my opinion more innovating than Apple.

Even Windows 8 is mostly just the decade-old concept of "one Windows to rule them all" warmed over despite all its previous failures, with an almost exact copy of the iOS infrastructure tacked on to it, just with a different enough UI (which so far has been enough to keep Apple at bay).

The Metro UI is a very visible component, but overall it is primarily a mixture of old Microsoft concepts with an almost exact replica of the iOS infrastructure concept as it has been two or three years ago.

Yes, under direct threat they have produced some innovation, but it's as half-baked and recycled as they're always done it. Which is of course just my point of view, but I've been watching both of them for over three decades by now. It's inevitable to gain some perspective over time, and while there are certain achievements to be acknowledged, overall I still fail to be impressed a lot by Microsoft, particularly with the lack of clues on the top levels.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 43):
But of course nothing that makes Apple look bad in any way is true in any way according to you.

Would you stop the obsessive personal digs already? They are contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion and are in violation fo the forum rules. And, in case you haven't noticed, I've been treating you with a lot more respect than that. I've never questioned your sanity nor your personal integrity, I just disagree with some of your points, without attacking or questioning you as a person because of it. It is high time that you start to return the favour.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
Feel free to say that, but a fold-able keyboard on a tablet just isn't the height of innovation to me.

Particularly since it's a copy of add-ons which had been available for years already, not just for the iPad but also for various older products.

[Edited 2012-08-01 12:30:43]
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
Suppose I was a self-centered greedy jerk who ruthlessly acquired wealth and power for 45 years and once I had it all I spent five years giving it away - are you saying the only relevant part is the last five years?

This would be relevant in the comparison between Gates and Jobs if it wasn't because Jobs was even greedier.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
Apple sues competitors to protect their inventions.

... while they steal from others. Just a quick example: the roll down notification bar from Android. Quoting Jobs himself. 'Good artists copy - great artists steal'

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
Feel free to say that, but a fold-able keyboard on a tablet just isn't the height of innovation to me.

And you just clearly demonstrated that you know nothing about W8.

This will be my last reply in this thread. I was hoping for an interesting debate for and against both companies, but unlike you, I am not that biased towards either of them (I own both Apple, MS and Google products). You have both demonstrated that you are fanboys which indicates to me that this discussion is a waste of time because your arguments are too biased to be taken seriously by anyone.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 36):
Quoting redflyer (Reply 30):
What MS has done in the past year is simply catch-up to what everyone else has been doing. While I'm sure Win8 will be good, and WinPhone is good, they are on par with what's already here. In the meantime, Apple and Google have not been sitting still.

No, but as you state, MS is doing the right things and doing them relatively well currently (so far). We'll have to see how things continue. As Apple has shown, you can go down a long way and still come roaring back. Of course you can also just crash and burn. I think MS' execution of their "Surface" strategy (whatever it really is) will say A LOT, it is a big gamble.

As I said, MS is just playing catch-up to Apple, Google, and Samsung. None of the products they've showcased are anything at all outside of the current flavors of software and hardware offered up by Apple, Google, and Samsung. They are trying to stay relevant with similar offerings, not different offerings. I've played with the Windows Phone, and I've read all the articles on Win8 and the new Surface. And nothing inside of me is screaming "I gotta have this!" I'm not even interested in considering any of those. And unless I'm working for a client that compels me to use a Windows-based product, when I start refreshing my portable equipment over the next year, I'm going to seriously consider moving over into Apple's universe. Why? Because...

Quoting Klaus (Reply 41):
Correspondingly, Apple's products are sometimes technically quirky and sometimes appear to be somewhat limited (at least at first sight), but when using them the impression usually is that the machine is quietly and effectively putting its support behind the user's intentions with as little fuss as possible.

Exactly! I bought my wife a new iPhone a few weeks ago. She is not technically savvy and I thought an iPhone, with its emphasis on use-ability and ease of function would be ideal for her. I've since fallen in love with her phone and I'm going to bite the bullet and buy an iPhone (when the new iPhone 5 is released in September - if I have to fork over $600+, might as well get the latest and greatest). Mind you, my Android phone (Galaxy SII Skyrocket) is only 8 months old. And when it came out back in late 2011, it was touted as superior to the iPhone 4S. But after playing with my wife's iPhone, I can't help but appreciate Steve Jobs' genius. Yes, the phone is simple to use, but that doesn't mean it is simple (which is what I've always had the impression of it being). The experience with it is so much better than my Android, even though my Android has a much larger screen. I've since dick'd around with the Mac Pro and have decided, unless I'm with a client that has compatibility issues, my next laptop will also be an Apple product.

So back to the issue of MS, they have a long way to go. And, IMO, they will not turn the ship around until and only if Ballmer leaves. It seems he can't get his mind around the fact that MS does not have to be about Windows or Office only to survive. That MS, as a company, can represent something else other than Windows and Office, and be very successful at it. Other companies have executed such turnarounds. Two of the biggest and most famous that come to mind are IBM and Apple, both of which reinvented themselves after hitting the skids. Anyone remember Michael Dell famously saying back in 1998 that Apple should fold and pay back its shareholders the money they put into the company? That's how bad things were at Apple at one time. So, yes, I think MS can reinvent itself, but only if the current leadership is cruise-launched out of the company.
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Klaus
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 46):
This would be relevant in the comparison between Gates and Jobs if it wasn't because Jobs was even greedier.

The numbers speak strongly against that. Jobs worked at Apple effectively as a hobby. His (by comparison to Gates moderate) wealth had nothing to do with Apple, but actually resulted from the Pixar sale. I don't see where "greed" was supposed to be visible with Steve Jobs.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 46):
... while they steal from others. Just a quick example: the roll down notification bar from Android. Quoting Jobs himself. 'Good artists copy - great artists steal'

That notification design is older than Android, and which patents is Apple allegedly violating with that? For some reason, nobody seems to bother suing them for it.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 46):
This will be my last reply in this thread. I was hoping for an interesting debate for and against both companies, but unlike you, I am not that biased towards either of them (I own both Apple, MS and Google products). You have both demonstrated that you are fanboys which indicates to me that this discussion is a waste of time because your arguments are too biased to be taken seriously by anyone.

We just happen to civilly and respectfully disagree with some of your points of view, which is perfectly normal in a discussion (and basically the whole point why discussions even exist).

If you cannot hold your own with topical arguments in a civil and respectful tone, that is entirely on you.
 
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RE: Microsoft’s Lost Decade

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 46):
while they steal from others. Just a quick example: the roll down notification bar from Android. Quoting Jobs himself. 'Good artists copy - great artists steal'

Then I guess there will be nothing to fear from the courts.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 46):
And you just clearly demonstrated that you know nothing about W8.

You've just shown you have nothing constructive to add other than insults.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 46):

This will be my last reply in this thread. I was hoping for an interesting debate for and against both companies, but unlike you, I am not that biased towards either of them (I own both Apple, MS and Google products

Feel free to leave, it is your right. I threw out lots of interesting things to discuss, like why M$ invested in Xbox and Media Center PC and what became of those investments, but for whatever reason the kind of discussion I wanted didn't materialize either, but I won't pout about it nor insult others over it.

It's clear to most observers that M$ has made a lot of mistakes over the last decade. Indeed that's what the article in the thread starter is about, and that's what much of the discussion has been about. You seem to only be happy with the line of thinking that says M$ is on the mend and all its upcoming products will be wonderful, but aren't giving us any basis to understand why you feel that way and are now sulking off because we didn't rally to the M$ flag. It makes no sense to me, but hey, it's your nickle too.
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