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OA260
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600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:35 am

Quite a massive scale and seems to be getting worse. I wonder how they can get themselves out of this mess. Seems like they need to invest alot in their power grid or face social/economic issues.

India's power grid crisis deepens

A massive power breakdown has hit India for a second day running, leaving more than half the country without power.

Officials said the northern and eastern grids had both collapsed. All Delhi metro services have been halted and staff are trying to evacuate trains.

Monday's power failure caused severe disruption and travel chaos across northern India.

It was unclear why the grid collapsed but the power minister said some states may have been taking too much power.

Sushil Kumar Shinde said power would be restored in "another 90 minutes".

After Monday's cut, engineers managed to restore electricity to the northern grid by the evening, but at 01:05pm (0735 GMT) on Tuesday, it collapsed again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-19060279
 
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Revelation
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:30 am

Quite unfortunate. I hope power is restored swiftly!
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Kiwirob
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:39 am

woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.
 
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:42 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.

Personally, I would have gone with the millions that Air India spends on parked 777s, but to each his own...
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
comorin
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:00 pm

Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.
 
B2443
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.

Or tell you kids not to worry because you are a democracy and you can vote out the politicians.
 
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.

More than half the population of the world's most populous nation with nothing better to do than procreate - let's see what happens 9 months from now!
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DocLightning
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.

A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected

Who, of course, can't hear you until it's over.   

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

And the CA rolling blackouts in the late 1990's. Sat on a chairlift for an hour, I did. Three towers from the top.
-Doc Lightning-

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mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):

And the CA rolling blackouts in the late 1990's. Sat on a chairlift for an hour, I did. Three towers from the top.

You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!
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Kiwirob
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.
 
faddypainter
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:25 pm

I'm no energy expert, but how can such a huge scale blackout occur? Surely such a huge piece of essential infrastructure cannot be so centralised and vulnerable to complete failure  
 
aloges
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:32 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago.

Didn't that happen because the grid in question was also inadequate? Perhaps not as woefully so as the Indian one, but still far from advanced.
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OA260
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:39 pm

An interesting article which goes some way to explaining the situation of India's electricity problem.

Day Two of India's Blackout Hits Half the Population

Northern India’s electricity returned with a pop, as light bulbs in south Delhi exploded, refrigerators groaned from the surge in power, and electricity sockets spat out smoke.

Twice in two days, much of India lost electricity in back-to-back grid failures, with massive traffic and railway snarls.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-blackout-hits-half-the-population

As mentioned above regarding the power outages in the US this was huge compared to those .
 
mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting Faddypainter (Reply 10):
I'm no energy expert, but how can such a huge scale blackout occur? Surely such a huge piece of essential infrastructure cannot be so centralised and vulnerable to complete failure

Usually, there is not a single cause - there is a cascading event. Usually there is a "fault" that tips the first domino.There are supposed to be fail safes that are supposed to stop the dominoes for falling too much.

You can place fail safes for 99% of "credible situations" - but no matter how sophisticated a system is there is always a chance that a perfect storm of events occur that you are just not able to plan for.

Now - depending on the system "sophistication" .. they might not be covered for 99% of the faults, but for only 75%.

It is part of of the post-mortum to understand how this happened - and how (or even IF) it could have been prevented.
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mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 11):
Didn't that happen because the grid in question was also inadequate?

Not necessarily. One of big contributors was trees and human errors

"2:02 p.m. The first of several 345 kV overhead transmission lines in northeast Ohio fails due to contact with a tree in Walton Hills, Ohio.

2:14 p.m. An alarm system fails at FirstEnergy's control room and is not repaired.

3:05 p.m. A 345 kV transmission line known as the Chamberlin-Harding line fails in Parma, south of Cleveland, due to a tree"

... and the "perfect storm" begins..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northea...lackout_of_2003#Sequence_of_events
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aloges
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 14):
trees

That's sort of making my point, if I'm honest. If trees can make contact with a major power line and make it fail, there's a fundamental inadequacy in its maintenance. If that in turn leaves 55 million poeple without power for hours or even a day, well... the "Findings" section of the Wikipedia article explains.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
That's sort of making my point, if I'm honest. If trees can make contact with a major power line and make it fail, there's a fundamental inadequacy in its maintenance. If that in turn leaves 55 million poeple without power for hours or even a day, well... the "Findings" section of the Wikipedia article explains.

You can hardly blame the tree trimming mistakes of a company and cast a "inadequate" blanket on the US Grid.

Remember it wants just a tree - that was one of the contributing factors. If the tree would have fallen even minutes later the outcome could have been different,

Trees hit lines all the time - you font see blackouts like this every time that happens.

Again, outages like that have many factors contributing

[Edited 2012-07-31 14:29:04]
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

Maybe I belong on the tinhat brigade, but it will happen again in America too much worse than the northeast or California blackouts. We have been warned what a powerful solar storm could possibly do to not just us but the world's electrical grids.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
More than half the population of the world's most populous nation with nothing better to do than procreate - let's see what happens 9 months from now!

Since when did they pass China up in being most populous?
 
PPVRA
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!

And California regulators, too!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
comorin
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:46 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.

So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.
 
Marcus
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:56 am

Where any of these at night? any satellite pictures?
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blrsea
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:09 am

The grid is slowly coming online. It happens, and there is lot of factors. There is more than 10% gap between supply and demand. There is shortage of coal. There are problems acquiring land for power plants, from acquisition costs to environment concerns. Plus power is sold at subsidized rates to many in rural India, so most of the power companies are under heavy losses. The list can go on. But on the positive side, there are many more power plants coming up. So in another 5-10 years time, we may get rid of power shortages.

As regards to outages, in 2006, power was down in Greater Seattle area of Washington state here in US, and my home was without power for seven days! Yup, that is right! And it is much more worse off here in US because almost everywhere electricity is heavily used. Couldn't make a cup of coffee at ho, me! There was gridlocks on the streets, restaurants were closed, no ATMs, no gas stations. Took two-three days for power to come back up in many areas. Unfortunately for me, a tree had uprooted the powerlines near my apartment, so we were some of the last people to get power back.

At least in India, people are prepared for power outages (there are scheduled blackouts during peak power shortages), so you can survive without electricity for some time at least  
 
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:28 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.

If they don't have power and running water, then a blackout won't affect them much, will it?

Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.

That's not the point. The point is that they are equipped to live without electricity for a time. We in this country melt down without electricity.
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
As mentioned above regarding the power outages in the US this was huge compared to those.

Actually, for power disrupted I bet the 2003 US/Canada outage was larger. And for land area affected by the disruption, I wouldn't be surprised they are around the same, a very large region was affected across North America. Population affected of course there is no comparison, India just has so many more people in a similar land area.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!

And California regulators, too!

No, not really, mostly Enron/unethical traders. The regulation may have had flaws but that doesn't mean "Go ahead, f**k us", it just doesn't. There was no real excuse for what the traders did, for the manipulation of the market.

Tugg
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fr8mech
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Usually, there is not a single cause - there is a cascading event. Usually there is a "fault" that tips the first domino.There are supposed to be fail safes that are supposed to stop the dominoes for falling too much.


Correct. Many widespread black-outs occur because more than one event or action happens at the same time or in sequence to cause the black-out. See the write-up on the 1977 NYC Black-out. Lightning strikes followed by some mis-communication led to the black-out.

Basically, absent a large scale, external influence (storm, earthquake, EMP, etc.) in a properly designed and maintained system, a wide-spread black-out happens only when all the holes in the Swiss Cheese line up. Any individual event would not cause a wide-spread outage.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):
Maybe I belong on the tinhat brigade, but it will happen again in America too much worse than the northeast or California blackouts. We have been warned what a powerful solar storm could possibly do to not just us but the world's electrical grids.


Any system can fail. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. You can not proof a system against every threat, especially a threat that you haven't seen before and only have a theoretical understanding of.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 21):
At least in India, people are prepared for power outages (there are scheduled blackouts during peak power shortages), so you can survive without electricity for some time at least


That statement right there indicates to me that the Indian power grid is inadequate to its needs. If there are scheduled outages to manage load, then there should really be a plan in place to increase capacity, not just shed load. Load shedding is a temporary fix.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
We in this country melt down without electricity.


Or freeze. We had a power outage here in January 2009 after an ice storm a) brought trees down on power lines and b) powerlines snapped from the weight of the ice. Some areas were without power for 5 or 6 days. We lucked out and didn't lose power. We had 16 people stay at the house for a few days.

We also had an extended, wide spread power outage when we had high winds from Hurricane Ike blast through the area in 2008. We did lose power for 6 days. It was a pain in the ass, but the weather was cool, the kids' school still had power. I would shower at the YMCA (cue the Village People) and did a lot of barbecuing. I was able to snag a rather large supply of dry ice and some coolers , so I was able to keep most of the meat cold. The beer was a problem, so I switched to bourbon.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):

Maybe I belong on the tinhat brigade,



Hardly.


Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):

but it will happen again in America too much worse than the northeast or California blackouts. We have been warned what a powerful solar storm could possibly do to not just us but the world's electrical grids.


What you're thinking of is called a Coronal Mass Ejection. Not quite a solar storm, but hardly something to be brushed aside if we're ever in the wrong place at the wrong time, along our orbit. "Normal" occurrences in the range 100 Billion or so kg of mass are no big deal per se. But we have witnessed plenty of incidences that are far more severe. We will see what happens one day, no doubt...
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Kiwirob
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:12 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.

That's my point the govt spent billions on nukes and is spending large on defense yet the average Indian lives in squallor

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
If they don't have power and running water, then a blackout won't affect them much, will it?

Might not affect them at home but what about at work, travelling to and from work, this will hit everyone.
 
blrsea
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
That's my point the govt spent billions on nukes and is spending large on defense yet the average Indian lives in squallor

One cannot trade defence for economy or vice versa. India still spends very less on defence (~2% of GDP) on defence compared to our neighbours like Pakistan and China which spend more than 5% of their GDP on defence, or even other western countries. Given the neighbourhood we are in, we can't affect to be lax. Otherwise, India would have succumbed to the "death by thousand cuts" strategy adopted by one of our neighbours to defeat India. That is OT for now. Countries like Australia, Canada etc which don't face any threats spend lots on defence, either for prestige or to act as representative of an imperial power  . They might as well give it to the poor in their countries  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
That statement right there indicates to me that the Indian power grid is inadequate to its needs. If there are scheduled outages to manage load, then there should really be a plan in place to increase capacity, not just shed load. Load shedding is a temporary fix.

As I had mentioned in my post, there is a gap of 10% between demand and supply. Even though India is adding capacity at a high rate, it is not sufficient. I have mentioned the reasons in my earlier post.
 
fr8mech
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:46 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 27):
As I had mentioned in my post, there is a gap of 10% between demand and supply. Even though India is adding capacity at a high rate, it is not sufficient. I have mentioned the reasons in my earlier post.

Please don't take offense. I read your post and understand that India is doing what it can. But, this 10% gap didn't appear yesterday. It was years in the making.

I see the same thing happening here. As our population grows our power demands will increase; especially, if the the growth results in suburban sprawl (not sure that's the case right now with the current economic situation). But, we are not building new power plants, in fact, we taking coal fired generators off-line. I'm afraid that 5 or 10 years from now, the US will suffer widesrpead, rolling black-outs because we're cutting capacity. Instead of these one-off events caused by external factors, we'll be dealing with planned outages.
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Tugger
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:53 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 27):
I have mentioned the reasons in my earlier post.

Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these:

.

.


How much do you think this kind of stuff contributes? How do you fix all the "loss" that is going with a lot of this?

Tugg
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:43 am

Quoting B2443 (Reply 5):
Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.

Or tell you kids not to worry because you are a democracy and you can vote out the politicians.

I find this snide remark by our Chinese forum member way out of place. So in the People´s Republic of China everything works fine because a strict and paternalistic government, which knows what is best for the people, takes care of everything?

Jan
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Kiwirob
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:01 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 29):
Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these:

Would really hate to be a linesman in India.
 
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OA260
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:49 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 29):
Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these:

 Wow!  Wow! And to think I didnt like the one they put on my land .



I'm always prepared for the rare event we have an outage. Usually its due to a bad storm and majority of times its fixed within 2-3 hours. Just in case I have a stock pile of coal for the coal fire and torches. I also got a gas hob in my kitchen so can cope quite well if it ever goes on for a longer period.
 
blrsea
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 29):

Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these:

How much do you think this kind of stuff contributes? How do you fix all the "loss" that is going with a lot of this?

Tugg

For one, I think they are telephone cables, that are usually drawn from a pole outside on the street to the homes , and I see some cable TV lines there too mixed in  
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Please don't take offense. I read your post and understand that India is doing what it can. But, this 10% gap didn't appear yesterday. It was years in the making.

Nope, no offence taken. I am more frustrated than you are because it directly affects us  
Yes, the politicians know that the situataion is unsustainable and have known it for a long time. They just want to kick the problem down so that whoever is at the helm during the collapse can take care of it.
The problem is that during elections, these politicians promise free power to some segements of the society, like farmers etc. However, they don't have a plan to make up for these subsidies. So many of the power transmission and distribution companies are in losses because the government doesn't fully pay up for the subsidies offered. So they cannot invest in upgrading their networks.

And new power plants have their own share of problems. Hydel and nuclear power plants cause all sorts of NIMBY protests. Coal is getting expensive, and India needs to import it a lot. And there have been NIMBY protests even for the coal plants due to the pollution they cause. Add the greedy politicians to the mix, and you have the situation in India today.
 
PPVRA
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 23):
No, not really, mostly Enron/unethical traders. The regulation may have had flaws but that doesn't mean "Go ahead, f**k us", it just doesn't. There was no real excuse for what the traders did, for the manipulation of the market.

Morally, you are right. But for being dumb and/or lazy California regulators and legislators are still at fault.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
Morally, you are right. But for being dumb and/or lazy California regulators and legislators are still at fault.

yes - you are right.. they should have been regulating more.

That is is change from your usually - "less regulation:" is good mantra.

I guess residents of CA are also at fault for using electricty..
Step into my office, baby
 
PPVRA
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 35):
yes - you are right.. they should have been regulating more.

That is is change from your usually - "less regulation:" is good mantra.

That's what they were doing! If it wasn't for the regulations, it would never have happened.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 35):
I guess residents of CA are also at fault for using electricty..

If you have nothing constructive to say. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
That's what they were doing! If it wasn't for the regulations, it would never have happened.

Care to give some details?

This ought to be good

[Edited 2012-08-01 08:35:17]
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PPVRA
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
Care to give some details?

"- Staff concludes that supply-demand
imbalance, flawed market design and
inconsistent rules made possible significant
market manipulation as delineated in final
investigation report. Without underlying
market dysfunction, attempts to manipulate
the market would not be successful."

http://www.ferc.gov/industries/elect...act/wec/enron/summary-findings.pdf

Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
This ought to be good

REALLY good!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
"- Staff concludes that supply-demand
imbalance, flawed market design and
inconsistent rules made possible significant
market manipulation as delineated in final
investigation report. Without underlying
market dysfunction, attempts to manipulate
the market would not be successful."

Yes.. that means that stronger regulation was needed.. not less

How do you fix "market dysfunction"? By taking rules away or placing stronger rules?

It depends on which rules right? since you are an expert on the matter -which specific rules cause the "dysfunction"?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):

REALLY good!

Indeed!

[Edited 2012-08-01 09:05:27]
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PPVRA
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 39):
Yes.. that means that stronger regulation was needed.. not less

I thought this was supposed to be good? I am highly disappointed.

The regulations were at fault, just as I said. You can choose to confuse immediate versus fundamental causes all day long, but you will not confuse me.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 39):
Indeed!

So much for that. . .
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comorin
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.

That's not the point. The point is that they are equipped to live without electricity for a time. We in this country melt down without electricity.

O RLY??  

There are 300 million middle class people of the 600 million affected that live in concrete homes and high-rises which can become suffocating when the power goes out. Power outages may be common in India, but prolonged systemic blackouts are not.

. July in Delhi is unbelievably hot. The only fallback they have are generators and UPS's that are good for a few hours - after that, it's an inferno. The other 300 million are also affected by the lack of public amenities. Hospitals, trains and buses are affected too. No electricity also means no water in a lot of cases.

The cause of this historic blackout is till unknown, so we should be careful of jumping to conclusions. No doubt the power grid and infrastructure in India is woefully inadequate, but this is something else.
 
mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):

The regulations were at fault, just as I said. You can choose to confuse immediate versus fundamental causes all day long, but you will not confuse me.

What specific regulations are you complaining about? Which "fundamental" regulation caused this?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
I thought this was supposed to be good? I am highly disappointed.

Me too ! Here i was thinking you were informed in the matter. Oh Well..
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PPVRA
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 42):
What specific regulations are you complaining about? Which "fundamental" regulation caused this?

The fundamental thing I was referring to was the regulatory environment. You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enron traders.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 42):
Me too ! Here i was thinking you were informed in the matter. Oh Well..

You are blaming market dysfunciton on the free market, despite the fact that these dysfunctions were caused by regulations. And despite the fact that obviously there was no free market at work, given the regulatory environment imposed.

You are not even being honest in this discussion, let alone well informed.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
The fundamental thing I was referring to was the regulatory environment. You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enron traders.

Ohh so.. every single regulation was to blame?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enron traders.

Yes- and you are making them the poor victims the circumstances..Boo hoo..

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
And despite the fact that obviously there was no free market at work, given the regulatory environment imposed.

For the third (or is it forth time?) show me how.

Describe the regulatory environment that cause these poor souls to lie and say that a power plant was under maintenance to artificiality bring up the cost of power.

"Enron CEO Kenneth Lay mocked the efforts by the California State government to thwart the practices of the energy wholesalers, saying, "In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what you crazy people in California do, because I got smart guys who can always figure out how to make money.

Energy traders took power plants offline for maintenance in days of peak demand to increase the price.[6][7] Traders were thus able to sell power at premium prices, sometimes up to a factor of 20 times its normal value.

"The financial crisis was possible because of partial deregulation legislation instituted in 1996 by Governor Pete Wilson. Enron took advantage of this deregulation and was involved in economic withholding and inflated price bidding in California's spot markets.[9] The crisis cost $40 to $45 billion.[10]

"Enron traded in energy derivatives specifically exempted from regulation by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis
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Tugger
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
That's what they were doing! If it wasn't for the regulations, it would never have happened.

On its face, that comment is ludicrous. The regulations didn't "cause" what happened. They may have accidentally "allowed" it but it was caused by traders operating in unethical ways, working to manipulate and defraud the market.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
The fundamental thing I was referring to was the regulatory environment. You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enron traders.

It was the Enron traders! If it was as you say then why didn't EVERY traders do it? Why? Because it was wrong and it was market manipulation and was unethical. If it was as yup state then every other trader was stupid but the fact is that the Enron Traders went out of business because of their corrupt business practices while most of the rest of the market continued and prospered.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
PPVRA
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
Ohh so.. every single regulation was to blame?

Even a single regulation can have a big enough impact to reshape the environment.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
Yes- and you are making them the poor victims the circumstances..Boo hoo..

Do NOT put words in my mouth. I never said or ever implied such a thing.




Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
For the third (or is it forth time?) show me how.

I am not doing the leg work for you. I already posted one link, it's up to you now to inform yourself.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
Describe the regulatory environment that cause these poor souls to lie and say that a power plant was under maintenance to artificiality bring up the cost of power.

"Enron CEO Kenneth Lay mocked the efforts by the California State government to thwart the practices of the energy wholesalers, saying, "In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what you crazy people in California do, because I got smart guys who can always figure out how to make money.

Energy traders took power plants offline for maintenance in days of peak demand to increase the price.[6][7] Traders were thus able to sell power at premium prices, sometimes up to a factor of 20 times its normal value.

"The financial crisis was possible because of partial deregulation legislation instituted in 1996 by Governor Pete Wilson. Enron took advantage of this deregulation and was involved in economic withholding and inflated price bidding in California's spot markets.[9] The crisis cost $40 to $45 billion.[10]

"Enron traded in energy derivatives specifically exempted from regulation by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. "

You should really do your homework - and make sure you understand it - before you go out making bold statements.

Regulatory environment that caused them to lie??? That just screams you are not paying any attention to the issue.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 45):
On its face, that comment is ludicrous. The regulations didn't "cause" what happened. They may have accidentally "allowed" it but it was caused by traders operating in unethical ways, working to manipulate and defraud the market.

That's like completely exonerating yourself from any fault for your car getting stolen because you CHOOSE not to lock it. You didn't accidentally allow this either, which is why I chose the words "dumb" and "lazy" in my earlier reply to you.

We live in a world where people sometimes make unethical choices. Knowing this, you can't exonerate a system that is vulnerable to these character flaws.

I assure you that if a CFO implements a poor system to manage company cash and something gets stolen, yes, the government will send the criminal to jail - but the shareholders will place the blame squarely on the CFO's failure and will want his head for failing to protect what belongs to them.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Tugger
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:01 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
That's like completely exonerating yourself from any fault for your car getting stolen because you CHOOSE not to lock it. You didn't accidentally allow this either, which is why I chose the words "dumb" and "lazy" in my earlier reply to you.

Boy, you are great at making my point! Thanks!

I am not "exonerating" the regulations or the legislators that created them. But can you tell me how many other traders did this too? And if it is "OK", and the regulations fault, why didn't they do it (or why didn't their companies fire them for not doing it)?

But again, thanks for making my point so well!  

Tugg

[Edited 2012-08-01 16:32:48]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
mt99
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RE: 600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
Even a single regulation can have a big enough impact to reshape the environment.

For this case - mention one. (Fifth time asking now?)

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
I am not doing the leg work for you. I already posted one link, it's up to you now to inform yourself.

One link that does not show anything. You are the one trying to make a point. Burden of proof is on you..

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
Without underlying
market dysfunction,

What created this "dysfunction?" Lack of regulation and oversight? or too much of it? Its your story - finish it.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
Regulatory environment that caused them to lie??? That just screams you are not paying any attention to the issue

That is what you have been saying all along. "Lazy" and "dumb" regulator cause the crisis..

What percentage of blame do you put on the traders? 50% ? 10%?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
That's like completely exonerating yourself from any fault for your car getting stolen because you CHOOSE not to lock it. You didn't accidentally allow this either, which is why I chose the words "dumb" and "lazy" in my earlier reply to you.

Right - and in this case the "lock" are regulations to keep everything in check. You choose not to have regulations or not have the proper ones you car gets stolen
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