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DocLightning
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Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:46 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...hooting-sikh-temple_n_1744256.html

Quote:
OAK CREEK, Wis., Aug 5 (Reuters) - A gunman killed six people and critically wounded three at a Sikh temple during Sunday services before police shot him dead in an attack that authorities are treating as an act of domestic terrorism.

Witnesses said the gunman opened fire when he entered the kitchen at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in suburban Milwaukee at about 10:30 a.m. CDT (1530 GMT) as women prepared a Sunday meal, sending worshippers fleeing to escape the barrage.

The suspect was a bald, white man, approximately 40 years old, said Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Authorities did not release his identity.

Also:

Quote:
Turban-wearing Sikhs are often mistaken for Muslims, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation is overseeing the probe into shootings, Edwards said.

"We're treating this as a domestic terrorist incident," he told reporters. Officials had no details about a possible motive.

So already the motive is starting to appear that this is an anti-Muslim (or anti-Subcontinental?) attack.

In other news, Westboro Baptist Church has released an official statement in the form of a Tweet:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...o-wisc_n_1745173.html#slide=402351

Quote:
God sent another shooter? MT @BreakingNews: Scanner reports indicate people shot at Sikh Temple,Oak Creek,Wisconsin @DanODwtmj @620wtmj

So? Time to ban high-capacity assault weapons? Time to start racially profiling middle-aged White men? Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this? Thoughts?
-Doc Lightning-

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Max Q
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:00 am

Something has to be done about the gun insanity in this country.
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BMI727
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:10 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to ban high-capacity assault weapons?

First, you're being disingenuous and jumping the gun since

Quote:
Edwards said he had no identification for the shooter nor information on what kind of weapon or weapons he had. The victims' identities and descriptions were not made public.

If you're going to make a point, make it. But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Second, the answer is no. No matter whether you think it's good for people to have such weapons or not, there's no practical way to get them off the streets. Americans didn't get less drunk during Prohibition and it's not likely they'll get less violent if you take away their guns. The people who are going to comply with additional laws and turn over their weapons aren't the people who are posing a threat.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this?

You want to repeal the First Amendment?
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Superfly
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:15 am

My sympathy and condolences to all of those who died and their loved ones in yesterday's shooting.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Thoughts?


It sickens me when some people gloat and celebrate when there is a heinous crime simply because the assailants isn't Muslim. Happened with the Colorado shooter and the Gabby Giffords shooter. It also sickens me when politicians take advantage of these unfortunate crimes and use it to push their agendas.
Luckily this man WILL be prosecuted in a court and punished by other middle-aged White men, some of whom also own guns.
Wisconsin doesn't have an official death penalty but he may get the Jefferey Dahmer treatment......
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comorin
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:19 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
The suspect was a bald, white man, approximately 40 years old, said Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Authorities did not release his identity.

Unusual name for a spokesman.

This is a tragic event where many innocents were killed at a place of worship. Sikhs have their origins as a martial people who took up arms against Mughal (Muslim) rulers back in the time.

On to the subject of guns. Unfortunately, there is no national dialogue on guns and we have become a completely polarized country. Half of America is not on speaking terms with the other half; and an unspoken civil war is already under place. If an insurrection actually takes place, let us not forget which side is better armed...

The US is also under a severe economic upheaval, and every other issue takes a backseat. The otherness of Sikhs will mean this shooting will not remain in the national consciousness beyond today.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:23 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
Luckily this man WILL be prosecuted in a court

The suspect was shot and killed at the scene by police.
 
blrsea
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:30 am

It surprises me that people advocate owning assualt rifles as a matter of right. While I can understand some of the arguments for owning hand guns (which I still don't think is needed), the argument for assualt rifles is simply ridiculous. It doesn't matter if background/mental checks are done before granting license. Who knows when someone will fly off the handle and start shooting up people?

Innocent people got killed today, for no fault of theirs other than being part of a religion which had not harmed US in any way, and only because the shooter was too stupid to distinguish between religions. Should we blame the US education system for this? or its lack of social supporty system to ensure disturbed people have a shoulder to lean on?
 
Superfly
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:54 am

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 5):
The suspect was shot and killed at the scene by police.

Even better!
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oldeuropean
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:30 am

This isn't the first attack on Sikhs in the US.

This looks like: an uneducated idiot, saw turbans and thought: "this must be muslims – I have to kill them!"

An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?
(And they are racist. If Obama wouldn't be black there wouldn't be no "Tea Party"!)

[Edited 2012-08-06 00:52:12]
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flipdewaf
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:19 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Unusual name for a spokesman.
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Unusual sounding job title too?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
You want to repeal the First Amendment?

I don't think anyone is looking at that just yet but what Doc actually said was.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this?

To ask the question is always a good thing and one should not assume that if something is written in the constitution that it is right. Times change, feelings change, situations change.

Many countries already have laws against incitement and it seems to work fairly well.

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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:33 am

This is a shameful tragedy. Condolences to victims and their families.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
You want to repeal the First Amendment?

I actually don't think that's necessary. I think we can outlaw hate speech, as well as the support of hate groups without having to go that far. Fraud, yelling fire in a crowded theater, disturbing the peace, and soliciting for the overthrow of our gov't are already not covered under the 1st.

Hate speech and groups are more dangerous than at least a few of those things. We shouldn't have to mess with the Constitution to get this taken care of. But if an amendment is needed to tweak the 1st on this issue, than that's fine too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
No matter whether you think it's good for people to have such weapons or not, there's no practical way to get them off the streets.

Bullshit. This is very easy to defeat. But even if it weren't, that is no excuse whatsoever to continue distribution going forward.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):

This looks like: an uneducated idiot, saw turbans and thought: "this must be muslims – I have to kill them!"

I'd be surprised if it were more complex than that, yes.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):

An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?
(And they are racist. If Obama wouldn't be black there wouldn't be no "Tea Party"!)

Can't say that they specifically are at fault just yet. But let's just say it wouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone if this guy does have tea party written all over him. He already can't tell the difference between a Sikh and an Arab after all... (And that's not to say that killing folks because they're Arab would have made this any better...)
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Airstud
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:37 am

A violent, very probably racist, a-hole opened fire and viciously murdered people in a Sikh temple.

How in the hell does anyone draw a straight line from the Tea Party to this?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:52 am

Lone gunman armed with a 9mm pistol.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...sin-shooting-idUSBRE8740FP20120806

The FBI are treating it as a rightwing terrorist attack.

On the other hand:
"Chinese Teenager kills eight with a knife after argument with his girlfriend"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19091840

Guns are extremely difficult to get in China, but there are plenty of videos on Youtube showing Chinese going beserk with knives.

Jan
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BMI727
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:09 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 11):
I think we can outlaw hate speech, as well as the support of hate groups without having to go that far.

Threats and fighting words along with the incitement of imminent lawless action are already excepted. Plus there are conspiracy laws as well. I don't see what further restrictions you could add without just scrapping the whole thing.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 11):
I think we can outlaw hate speech, as well as the support of hate groups without having to go that far.

Except that it shouldn't be outlawed. Part of freedom is the freedom to be an idiot. And as long as you are not stepping on anyone else's rights, there should be as few restrictions as possible on what people can and cannot support. People should be allowed to hate or not hate whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish provided that they do not incite imminent lawlessness, threaten others, commit crimes, or engage in a conspiracy to commit a crime.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 11):
This is very easy to defeat. But even if it weren't, that is no excuse whatsoever to continue distribution going forward.

If you think that further restrictions on guns is going to end gun violence you are extraordinarily naive. There's plenty of guns floating around as it is, and there are plenty of shady characters willing and able to sell more.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 12):
How in the hell does anyone draw a straight line from the Tea Party to this?

I wouldn't bet against his being in the Tea Party or sympathizing with it. That said, the Tea Party may be a group with racists in it, but it is not a racist group. We had plenty of those before. The KKK popped up just after the Civil War and American Nazis appeared not long after German ones, starting with the Bund and on through the American Nazi Party. Nobody needed the Tea Party to be a racist.

The Tea Party movement has run way off the rails to become an ultra right group that doesn't stand for much of anything other than defeating Kenyan presidents. It's a bunch of idiots who, along with the Occupy movement, are basically the Yippies of the 21st century. As such they'll attract pretty much anyone with a beef against the administration, whether it's social issues, fiscal issues, or they just don't like black people. It's not a viable movement, just like the Occupiers. Reasonable people will find other things to do while Tea Party clowns are off shooting their guns or trying to levitate things.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to ban high-capacity assault weapons?

Reports are that a 9 mm pistol was found at the scene. It doesn't appear than an assault weapon was used in the attack.
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Quokkas
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:16 am

When ignorance is combined with hatred the most shocking things can happen. Truly a tragedy. My condolences to those who have lost a loved one, both among the Sikh community and to the family of the policeman who died in the performance of his duty, and a speedy recovery to those injured during this latest outrage.

Sadly there are plenty of people who are prepared to fan the flames of hatred and there are those who will act out that same hatred. No country is totally immune and we are lucky that so far the US has not seen the sort of sectarian violence prevalent in a number of others.

I am not convinced that restricting the right to bear arms, let alone amending the Constitution, will make much of a difference. It is not simple possession of arms that lead people to kill. If that were so a number of other countries would have equally high firearm homicide rates as the US (and yes, some countries actually do.)

Let us compare two countries: the US and Switzerland. I choose those two because they are relatively stable countries with democratic systems of government, are governed by the rule of law, have advanced economies and an educated population.

As in the US the right to own a firearm is guaranteed by law in Switzerland, although there are restrictions on fully automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Weapons may be carried openly but a valid reason must be given to carry a concealed weapon. In terms of privately owned firearms out of 179 reporting countries Switzerland was ranked at number 3 with the US ranking at number 1.

Yet the incidence of firearm homicides is very different. In 2010 the rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 in Switzerland was 0.52. In stark contrast the 2009 rate for the US was 2.98 (see www.gunpolicy.org )

So why is it that one country seems to have a propensity for gun violence while the other doesn't? Until that question is adrressed any attempt at restricting gun ownership may simply be treating symptoms and not the underlying causes.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:30 am

Its on the headlines today out here.......there is quite an outburst over this attack for obvious reasons.....still dont get the gun law out there.
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flipdewaf
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:35 am

Absolutely shocking! A shame that the gunman was killed, would have been nice to know/understand his motives to help prevent this in the future.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
The Tea Party movement has run way off the rails to become an ultra right group that doesn't stand for much of anything other than defeating Kenyan presidents.

What on earth have they got against Mwai Kibaki?

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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:38 am

Attacking a Religious prayer location by a gunman is obviously targetting that particular community........Or presumes to target one particular community & got mixed up....
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Newark727
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:17 am

Loaded (but justified) questions in the OP aside, it is really time the country started to ask itself about the causes and effects of the nationwide gun fetish. People say it's cold, irreversible reality that we have enough weapons and ammunition lying around in civilian hands to down the world's entire elephant population six times over (note: 56% of all statistics are made up on the spot) but it's not. This is a reality that our country has over time created.
 
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:23 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?



Can you please cite some sources that links this murderer to the Tea Party?
That is a grave accusation to make, especially without any source to back it up.
Ironically, the only 2 Indian American governors in the US happen to belong to the Tea Party.
South Carolina governor Nikki Haley has commented about yesterday's tragedy.

http://standrews.patch.com/articles/...ov-haley-responds-to-wisc-shooting
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:37 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?
(And they are racist. If Obama wouldn't be black there wouldn't be no "Tea Party"!)

It is hate speech like this that ensures that americans can't seem to work together these days. The idea that the Tea party is racist is pure propaganda, straight from the Joseph Goebbels School. Find enough fools to repeat the lie often enough, and it becomes accepted by enough people to make a difference at the polls.

And for your information, the Tea Party had its origins in the fall of 2008, before Obama was elected, when millions of people shuddered in horror at the idea of bailing out all those banks for their poor business decisions. We wanted to let the banks fail if they had to, and then bail out the FDIC who would have to cover lost deposits. Better the money go to blameless depositors than stupid bank management. The TP then really got going when he started his massive stimulus spending (which still isn't over, BTW). Absolutely nothing to do with his race.
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flipdewaf
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Can you please cite some sources that links this murderer to the Tea Party?
That is a grave accusation to make, especially without any source to back it up.

Certainly is but I wouldn't worry because the first ammendment protects any statement no matter how heinous.

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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 21):
Certainly is but I wouldn't worry because the first ammendment protects any statement no matter how heinous.

And it also protects our right to call the maker of such statements an unmitigated jerk and rake him over the coals for it (figuratively speaking, of course).
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Superfly
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:56 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 21):
Certainly is but I wouldn't worry because the first ammendment protects any statement no matter how heinous.

All I'm asking for is a source of information.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
It sickens me when some people gloat and celebrate when there is a heinous crime simply because the assailants isn't Muslim

So in your opinion all heinous crimes are committed by Muslims?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
windy95
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to ban high-capacity assault weapons?



He did not use one but nice try...

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this?



How do you silence hate speech?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
, there's no practical way to get them off the streets. Americans didn't get less drunk during Prohibition and it's not likely they'll get less violent if you take away their guns



Correct

Quoting blrsea (Reply 6):
It surprises me that people advocate owning assualt rifles as a matter of right



Why? it is a natural thing for American's to own weapons of all types.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?
(And they are racist. If Obama wouldn't be black there wouldn't be no "Tea Party"!)



Please show proof where the tea party is racist. And Obama is not Black. He is Bi-racial.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 10):
Bullshit. This is very easy to defeat. But even if it weren't, that is no excuse whatsoever to continue distribution going forward



Please enlightnen us whith your easy plan to disarm the populace

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 10):
But let's just say it wouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone if this guy does have tea party written all over him



Same thing was said with the Gifford's and the Colorado shooters. Turned out both are Democrat's.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
jumping the gun

Fruedian slip?

Quoting blrsea (Reply 6):
It surprises me that people advocate owning assualt rifles as a matter of right. While I can understand some of the arguments for owning hand guns (which I still don't think is needed), the argument for assualt rifles is simply ridiculous.

It's something we're just stuck with. Our Constitution's framers intentionally put "the right to bear arms" right into the document, and in particular, put it into the context of citizens having enough firepower to overthrow the government, should the government exceed its rights. Based on this, it's surprising that there are any limits at all on "arms", up to and including thermonuclear warheads.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?

That's uncalled for.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
Guns are extremely difficult to get in China, but there are plenty of videos on Youtube showing Chinese going beserk with knives.

It's easier to outrun a knife than a bullet, even when you consider throwing stars.
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NWAESC
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:26 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Unusual name for a spokesman.

What's so weird about "Ahern?"

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 14):
both among the Sikh community and to the family of the policeman who died in the performance of his duty,

I believe the officer is expected to survive...

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Why? it is a natural thing for American's to own weapons of all types.

It is?! Since when? A pistol or rifle is one thing; a high powered assault rifle is something all together different.

The article below says the shooter had ties to the Neo-Nazi movement...

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...-wisconsin-sikh-temple-attack?lite

EDIT: Nevermind... Just looked at the spokesman's name in A.Net font. I get it now...  Smile

[Edited 2012-08-06 06:27:35]
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fr8mech
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:29 pm

So, this was an act of domestic terror, but the Fort Hood shooting wasn't?

I won't even address the gun control issues. My position on my right to defend myself and my family pretty well known on this forum.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this?


Can hate speech incite violence? Of course it can. A weak minded individual can always be swayed into action by a smooth tongue that claims one group or another is the root of that individual's problem(s).

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 10):
I think we can outlaw hate speech, as well as the support of hate groups without having to go that far.


No, we can't. The First Amendment was designed to protect dissident political speech, among other things. And yes, hate speech is political speech. By its nature, it calls for changes in the current environment.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 24):
So in your opinion all heinous crimes are committed by Muslims?


No, I believe what he is saying is that the media and our government fall over their asses to disassociate a Muslim from his faith (again, see Ft. Hood) when a Muslim commits an act of terrorism here in the US; but when the same type of attack is committed by a (supposed) non-Mulsim on a Muslim (or in this case Sikh) community, the attack is clearly motivated by the the attacker's hate of that community.
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And Obama is not Black. He is Bi-racial.

Ahh, the old "too black for some, not black enough for others" troll...
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
Guns are extremely difficult to get in China, but there are plenty of videos on Youtube showing Chinese going beserk with knives.

It's easier to outrun a knife than a bullet, even when you consider throwing stars.

I didn´t check on the statistics, but I´m quite sure that most of these massacres were committed at close range, either in buildings, with no chance of getting away, or, in the Norwegian case by the killer using the disguise of a police uniform to lure the victims close to him. It is like shooting fish in a barrel. The only case I can remember where a killer used marksmanship skills was the Washington sniper, who used a scoped rifle from a hiding place in the boot (trunk) of a car.

Jan
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SOBHI51
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
The only case I can remember where a killer used marksmanship skills was the Washington sniper, who used a scoped rifle from a hiding place in the boot (trunk) of a car.

There was also the gunman in the clock tower of Austin university in Texas.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
blrsea
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:03 pm

With a knife, the ability to shoot multiple people in a matter of seconds isn't there, as it depends on the knife wielder's reflexes. And people can overpower him are more. In case of a gun, it can kill more people at longer ranges, chances of bullets ricocheting and hitting others are more, and during a struggle, the gun can still go off killing even more.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
It's something we're just stuck with. Our Constitution's framers intentionally put "the right to bear arms" right into the document, and in particular, put it into the context of citizens having enough firepower to overthrow the government, should the government exceed its rights. Based on this, it's surprising that there are any limits at all on "arms", up to and including thermonuclear warheads.

I don't see why a reasonable restriction on type of arms not be imposed. Given that the country has matured since its independence, and the government is no longer able to become dictatorial, I really see no need for people to have arms that match the best that the defense forces have. Do we really want to have so much firepower in the hands of civilians?
 
wingman
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:03 pm

These Sikhs really should do themselves a favor and guy giant "We are NOT Muslim" banners for their temples. In a country so overloaded on hate, guns, and mass stupidity it might be their only salvation.

Anyway, just another day in the life of a country gone full retard. It seems a near impossibility that the Fathers had this in mind when they wrote their opus.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And Obama is not Black. He is Bi-racial.


Ahh, the old "too black for some, not black enough for others" troll...

Oh come on! Don't you know that if you tell a member of the KKK that you are Bi-racial and not black they will stop chasing you with you hunting rifles and just give you a chinese burn instead.

Fred
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Confuscius
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 10):
He already can't tell the difference between a Sikh and an Arab after all..

Some people are just plain dumb and stupid. With the internet it's so easy to research things unless the shooter went to a right wing website...or wikipedia for information.  
Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):

They may be governors but IMO the most prominent Indian-American is pornstar Sunny Leone.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
smittyone
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 33):
These Sikhs really should do themselves a favor and guy giant "We are NOT Muslim" banners for their temples. In a country so overloaded on hate, guns, and mass stupidity it might be their only salvation.

I see a guy occasionally on the expressway sporting a license plate frame that says "Sikhs Love America. Google "Sikhism". Now I know why!

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
In other news, Westboro Baptist Church has released an official statement in the form of a Tweet:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...02351

The WBC are a real piece of work. I hope they reap what they've sown someday.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 32):
Given that the country has matured since its independence, and the government is no longer able to become dictatorial,

Must resist urge to explode into laughter.......and tears.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
PHX787
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
So already the motive is starting to appear that this is an anti-Muslim (or anti-Subcontinental?) attack.

It's pretty clear. The guy's a vet.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Time to revisit the question of whether hate speech incites violence like this?


Can hate speech incite violence? Of course it can. A weak minded individual can always be swayed into action by a smooth tongue that claims one group or another is the root of that individual's problem(s).

Here's the problem: It's all about the person's upbringing. We cannot be so strict on hate speech because that creates first amendment problem.
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BMI727
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 16):
What on earth have they got against Mwai Kibaki?

Good one. That said, Kibaki and Obama have both done about the same amount of work to separate Americans from their guns.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
And for your information, the Tea Party had its origins in the fall of 2008, before Obama was elected, when millions of people shuddered in horror at the idea of bailing out all those banks for their poor business decisions.

Those origins are pretty much just a memory now.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Absolutely nothing to do with his race.

Other than the fact that the Tea Party became a hub for pretty much everyone who doesn't like Obama, especially the extremists, which of course would include racists.

Quoting wingman (Reply 33):
These Sikhs really should do themselves a favor and guy giant "We are NOT Muslim" banners for their temples. In a country so overloaded on hate, guns, and mass stupidity it might be their only salvation.

Right, because Muslims have no protection and people attack them for fun.  
Quoting blrsea (Reply 32):
I don't see why a reasonable restriction on type of arms not be imposed.

What other "reasonable restrictions" might the government want to have then? Today it's guns and tomorrow it might be something that actually matters to me.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
ltbewr
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:58 pm

The gunman's name has come out. He used a handgun legally obtained about 10 days ago. He served a number of years in the US Army (1992 -98). He apparently had connections to the very racist 'skinhead' movement, including as a member of with a band connected with it.
When are we as a country going to get the act together as to dealing with mental/psychlogical illness, dealing with hatred and dealing with our lust for guns to try to end the violence from mass murders.
 
blrsea
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
What other "reasonable restrictions" might the government want to have then? Today it's guns and tomorrow it might be something that actually matters to me.

So you are comfortable with people walking around with deadly assault rifles and higher caliber guns? Even if it threatens your family or loved ones? Quite a few of these shooting incidents are by people who have no previous violent crime history, and have legally licensed arms. Everyone says "hey, it is not me. I will NEVER do that. That guy shouldn't have been sold those guns". All it takes is someone with a legally licensed fire arm to go under stress, and then innocents have to suffer.

Reasonable restrictions to ensure safety of others cannot be extrapolated to saying they will place restrictions elsewhere. Why can't drivers drive on the wrong side of the road, even though they are licensed drivers? Shouldn't such restrictions be removed too? Why should drivers slow down near schools? given the lop sided arguments by gun-lovers, one can argue that the kids shouldn't be out on the roads unsupervised, and there should be no speed limits on the roads near school as it slows down traffic!

I guess the majority in US believe that a gun in every home and hand will ensure deterrence, even though events have proven otherwise.
 
Geezer
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
An outcome of the racist Tea Party movement?
(And they are racist. If Obama wouldn't be black there wouldn't be no "Tea Party"!)


Oldeuropean..............OldAmerican here........for anyone to call the Tea Party "racist" makes about as much sense as for that person to call you "nazi" merely because you apparently live in Germany. If you choose to continue to believe that everyone in the U.S. who despises Obama is a "racist", that doesn't make them a racist, it just make you "wrong".


[quote=NWAESC,reply=27]It is?! Since when? A pistol or rifle is one thing; a high powered assault rifle is something all together different.

NWAESC.........this statement indicates to anyone having any knowledge of firearms, that you have very little; a "pistol" or "rifle" is "one thing"........(I assume you mean O.K.), but a "high powered assault rifle" is "different" ? Really ? Tell us, what do you think the "difference" is ? This statement alone indicates that you are very confused about just what is meant by the term "assault rifle". Try to understand this simple fact: in the hands of an idiot, even a .22 cal. pistol is a deadly weapon, assuming it's used at close range. A "gun" is a gun, regardless of what words you use to describe it, and they can all kill people if that's the intent of the person holding it; There are many members of this forum who own weapons just as "powerful" (and more powerful) than the idiot who committed this senseless crime, yet you don't see them going around killing people with them.

The people who are so committed to getting guns out of the hands of people who use them for defending themselves and their families are completely missing the point; what they need to be worrying about is the fact that there are a very large number of idiots, criminals, terrorists, and other malcontents living among us, and they are all quite willing and able to kill innocent people; what the "gun haters" need to be screaming about is how to get rid of the afore-mentioned idiots, criminals and so on. ( If you have any workable ideas, I'm all ears ! )

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
smittyone
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 40):
The gunman's name has come out. He used a handgun legally obtained about 10 days ago. He served a number of years in the US Army (1992 -98). He apparently had connections to the very racist 'skinhead' movement, including as a member of with a band connected with it.

The more I read about this guy, the more I think the whole "must have mistaken the Sikhs to be Muslims" angle of this story is bogus.

Page was just a 4-F douchebag looking to kill some non-Anglo people and the Sikhs became his target.
 
windy95
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
So, this was an act of domestic terror, but the Fort Hood shooting wasn't?
Quoting NWAESC (Reply 27):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Why? it is a natural thing for American's to own weapons of all types.

It is?! Since when? A pistol or rifle is one thing; a high powered assault rifle is something all together different.

Yes as Revelation stated below

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
Our Constitution's framers intentionally put "the right to bear arms" right into the document, and in particular, put it into the context of citizens having enough firepower to overthrow the government, should the government exceed its rights.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And Obama is not Black. He is Bi-racial.


Ahh, the old "too black for some, not black enough for others" troll...

Actually just stating a fact. Being that he is the first bi-racial President.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 32):
Given that the country has matured since its independence, and the government is no longer able to become dictatorial

You have to be kidding? Have you seen what this Presidnet is doing?

Quoting blrsea (Reply 32):
Do we really want to have so much firepower in the hands of civilians?

Yes. The more we have the better bargaining chip.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Other than the fact that the Tea Party became a hub for pretty much everyone who doesn't like Obama, especially the extremists, which of course would include racists.

Just keep perpetuating that lie. Once again can you show us some proof of the racist groups in the Tea Party.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 38):
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
So already the motive is starting to appear that this is an anti-Muslim (or anti-Subcontinental?) attack.

It's pretty clear. The guy's a vet.

How does being a vet make it clear?

What is clear is that this guy in not of any Party or mainstream America.


[quote[Wade Michael Page, the tattooed white supremacist and former Army soldier police say gunned down six Sikhs in a Milwaukee-area temple before a police officer killed him, spread his message of hate through several rock bands for more than a decade before mounting his bloody rampage Sunday.

Playing guitar and singing in various bands -- including Definite Hate and End Apathy -- in the obscure skinhead punk scene, the 40-year-old Page spewed his lyrics at ear-splitting volume in small underground bars and on independent record labels. In an April 2010 interview with Label 56, the label that carries End Apathy's music, Page described the message behind his songs.

"The topics vary from sociological issues, religion and how the value of human life has been degraded by being submissive to tyranny and hypocrisy that we are subjugated to," Page said.

White power lyrics, which frequently discuss genocide against the Jews and other minorities, are so violent and twisted that the music is typically available only over the Internet, according to experts. In a song called "Self-Destruct" by End Apathy, Page growls his dismal vision of life in the U.S.[/quote]


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/06...ter-soundtrack-hate/#ixzz22mroEpAu

[Edited 2012-08-06 10:16:21]
 
windy95
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 44):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
So, this was an act of domestic terror, but the Fort Hood shooting wasn't?



Exactly

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 40):
He apparently had connections to the very racist 'skinhead' movement, including as a member of with a band connected with it.



And we all know that skinheads are a core conservative group that partake in the Tea Party.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 41):
So you are comfortable with people walking around with deadly assault rifles and higher caliber guns?



Yes

Quoting blrsea (Reply 41):
Even if it threatens your family or loved ones?



They will then have a group of weapon's pointing back at them.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 41):
Quite a few of these shooting incidents are by people who have no previous violent crime history, and have legally licensed arms. Everyone says "hey, it is not me. I will NEVER do that.



So everyone else must lose their right's and freedom's because fo a few crazy people?

Quoting blrsea (Reply 41):
a legally licensed fire arm to go under stress, and then innocents have to suffer.



Suffering come's in many more form's and happens to people in many more way's besides being killed by gun's.
The environmentalist got DDT banned and caused million's of death's from disease in the third world since then but we have a campaign to buy them netting. How nice of you. Million's of partial birth abortion's and not a peep out of you guys. But someone get's killed with a firearm and you all come unglued and want to take away others right's. Pretty sad...
 
BMI727
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 41):
So you are comfortable with people walking around with deadly assault rifles and higher caliber guns?

Not really, but that doesn't mean that I can tell people that they shouldn't own them if they want them.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 41):
Even if it threatens your family or loved ones?

The people who will threaten me or my family with a gun are the people who aren't going to be turning over the guns just because someone says so. They are also the same people who will have no problems with acquiring weapons illegally.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 41):
there should be no speed limits on the roads near school as it slows down traffic!

Not that there should be no speed limits, but if people want to get assault rifles off the streets because they are too powerful, why can't they take sports cars off the streets too for the same reason? My rather pedestrian car can already violate every speed limit in the nation.

With both weapons and cars the law should be chiefly concerned with what one does, not what one owns. Sure there can be restrictions like requiring cars to have seat belts and gun licensing requirements but there is no reason why I shouldn't have an obscenely powerful car or why my neighbor shouldn't have an assault rifle.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 44):
Just keep perpetuating that lie. Once again can you show us some proof of the racist groups in the Tea Party.

I never said the Tea Party is a racist group. Frankly they aren't an anything group. But I feel safe asserting that there are racists in the Tea Party, as it's pretty well documented.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
If you think that further restrictions on guns is going to end gun violence you are extraordinarily naive. There's plenty of guns floating around as it is, and there are plenty of shady characters willing and able to sell more.

Only the naive bring up the END of gun violence. The reality is that it is very difficult to END anything. But it is very often easy to REDUCE occurrence of things.

It will take a very long time to reduce guns floating around but it doesn't get better by doing nothing. It really comes down to the question about how you eat an elephant, one piece at a time.

Also remember that the gun used in this case was purchased in the last fortnight.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 14):
So why is it that one country seems to have a propensity for gun violence while the other doesn't? Until that question is adrressed any attempt at restricting gun ownership may simply be treating symptoms and not the underlying causes.

You used Switzerland as example. Take a look at the difference in attitude. While it is very common to have guns they are used extremely different. There is no expectations of having plenty of guns and ammunition at home. There is no expectations of carrying guns everywhere and at all times. For the most parts guns are there for the purpose of hunting or for the case of war, not to defend yourself from burglars and attacks other than war.

In my opinion the intent of the second amendment is much more along with how it is done in Switzerland than how it is done in today's USA.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
In my opinion the intent of the second amendment is much more along with how it is done in Switzerland than how it is done in today's USA.

I disagree. The intent of the Swiss keeping guns at home is because of the small size of the country and the need to be able to instantly mobilize in case of external threat. The intent of the 2nd amendment was very specifically intended to maintain a healthy fear of the general population in our politicians, to ensure that they did not get carried away with their desires.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
acidradio
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RE: Mass Shooting At Sikh Temple

Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:06 pm

I am jumping into the thread here as somewhat of a traffic cop. I'm starting to get a lot of Suggest Deletion requests in this thread. There is much argument going on, some of it rather harsh and a lot is straying way off topic. But I do not want to cut off the discussion. And if I were to start deleting "offending" posts it would make the conversation seem bland, full of holes and censored. I think this is an important discussion that we need to have. And I am not a censor! All I ask is that people stay CIVIL. That's not too much to ask, right?

This whole ordeal is terrible. And it comes on the heels of the movie theater mass shooting in Colorado. One of the things I think we are most proud of in the US is supporting one's right to worship in the religion they choose and safely and without harassment in a house of worship of their choosing. We also tend to be proud of our military and the members of our military. But it goes without saying that a number of people coming back from war in the US are coming back having experienced the extremes of humanity for good and mostly for bad. This kind of experience is not something that human beings can't just forget or walk away from. And of course there is the debate on gun ownership and whether a restriction on gun ownership would prevent things like this from ever occurring.

Many variables are involved in this incident and are hard to unravel from each other . They are facets of large discussions and debates we have in the US (and in reality throughout the world). Innocent people lost their lives while doing something that we generally regard as peaceful - worshiping in a temple or house of prayer. The man who committed these atrocities we are learning served in the military - something a lot of people hold in high regard - but was discharged for "patterns of misconduct" and apparently has ties to neo-Nazi groups. The man who committed these acts did so with a handgun but carried several large clips of ammunition with him; it is obvious he intended to maim or kill a large number of people.

Maybe I'm not the one to say this but for a discussion about a tragedy where innocents were maimed or killed simply worshiping their God let's try to be respectful and civil. Thanks.
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