Geezer
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Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:24 am

This seems to be a rather controversial subject on this forum recently; It's a subject that I think about a lot; and almost always, anything I think about a lot, I read about a lot, and I study a lot. I have read several books on the subject recently, done some "research", (google, wiki, and a few WW 2 history books) I have even gone to a few gun shows to see how people there think about gun control. I have talked at length with our county sheriff who is a good friend of mine, and now I'm willing to hear what people all over to world have to say about this matter.

I picked up some really good ideas on the subject recently from a fellow selling posters and calendars;
More about them in a minute..............

In reviewing threads dealing with gun control, one thing "stands out"............many people on the forum seem to always refer to people who have guns, as "nuts"........or just "gun nuts";

I have guns, and I can assure you, I'm not "nuts", nor am I a "nut"; If I, (or anyone else who owns a gun) is "nuts", then there's a tremendous number of "computer nuts", "car nuts", "guitar nuts", "camera nuts", "cell phone nuts", "iPod nuts", and many more kinds of "nuts" on Airliners ! But I really don't think people can be considered to be "nuts" because of what things they own. I think a better understanding of people can be had, by looking at WHY they own these things. Forgetting all of the other stuff, let's look at WHY people own guns; they vary from person to person, but mostly it's because people want to feel "safe"; (wanting to feel safe shouldn't make one a "nut", IMHO)

Here's a question for everyone on this forum; Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night, in a "bad" neighborhood ?

I have ! At midnight, downtown Louisville, Ky. while unloading a load of new cars at a "get ready" place. I used to go to this place all the time at night; never had any trouble before..........but this time, two "thugs" decided to see what they could steal out of my truck while I was driving a unit into the building; as I came back out, there stands two "perps", one with my suitcase, and one with a gun in his hand ! Oddly enough, my first thought was, "this can't be real" ! No one with any brains commits armed robbery over a damned suitcase full work clothes ! My next thought.........ANGER ! I became VERY angry ! As I approached, meaning to get my tie-down bar, the perp with the piece started shooting ! In my direction !

Being familiar with guns, I'm thinking........it's just a .22 (from the sounds), and either the perp is the worst shot in town, or else he's shooting blanks ! ( To this day, I never found out which ) As they headed towards an alley, I retrieved my tie-down bar, and gave chase, down a dark alley; after maybe 50m yards, it hit me..........I'm out of breath, and I can't see my hand, (which is white), and it's a foot from my face ! The perps would have been much harder to see, even if I could have caught up with them, which I definitely couldn't.

On the way out of downtown I stopped at the main Police Station; what did they tell me ? ( unloading at night, un-armed ? you're lucky you're not dead ! Better get yourself a piece !

For the next few weeks I thought and thought.......finally, I talked to a guy who was a brother-in-law to my then wife; he was a Hamilton cop; He: You gotta get you a piece, bro! So we went to a gun show, and I was about to buy me a model 66 S&W 357; then I thought some more.........it was just a damned suit case ! almost no problem replacing it; but if I'd had that 357, there would have been at least one, possibly two dead perps ! Think of the lost work, the lawyer fees, the bad publicity.........plus, my company didn't allow us to "carry" ! I would have been fired ! So I changed my mind; (but I also changed my "tactics"; next time I unloaded at night in Louisville, I was "prepared" !

Now, 30 years later, things have changed; and NOT for the better ! Now things are MUCH worse ! So now, at least I have a CC permit ( which is only good in Indiana ) when I go to Chicago, it's back to square one. ( Obama's buddy, Rahm Dead-Fish
don't allow no no citizens protecting themselves in HIS town; (which has a murder rate higher than Mexico City, BTW)

OK, enough about why I want to feel safe; back to the posters & calendars at the gun show.............
I didn't buy one, and I didn't take photos; but I have a descent memory; here's what was on just a few of them;

1. Guns don't make you a killer; killing people makes you a killer; you can kill people with a ball bat or a car but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game !

2. When guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns..........between 1900 and 2000, fifty six million people were murdered by their own governments; gun control is a prerequisite to genocide.

For all you young guys, I remember almost all of this happening ! Stalin murdered millions of his own people; So did Hitler;
I found a photo in a book that showed a Chinese Officer shooting a young girl in the back of the head, just above a ditch full of dead bodies. This is a REAL photograph folks ! This really happened !

3. A poster depicted a similar scene, with the caption: "Gun control works great as long as you are the one controlling the guns" !

4. To me, gun control means a balanced stance and a smooth trigger pull.

5. This is probably the best one of all..........(because it's so very true)............We cannot replay history but we can learn from it; if every Jewish and anti-nazi family in Germany had owned a Mauser rifle and 20 rounds of ammunition, and the will to use it, Adolf Hitler would be a little known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic. By Aaron Zelman

6. these two are going to be on my front door and my back door..........

"Have an EMERGENCY ? Use 1911
Average 911 response time........................around 15 minutes

Average 1911 response time....................... 2 seconds

( For those unfamiliar with weapons 1911 refers to the model 1911 Colt semi auto 45 cal. pistol. (the most widely copied design of all time )

And lastly..........."My alarm tells me you are in my house; my gun tells me "not for long"

So.........all of the above, over quite a few years, is why I choose to be able to defend myself and mine; you may think that makes me a "nut"; the U.S. Constitution thinks it makes me a law abiding citizen.


It's easy to think a great Army is a "waste" if you can never remember a war...........

It's easy to think a fire extinguisher is a "bother" if you've never had a fire............

It's easy to think all of that insurance is a "waste" if you've never had a tornado demolish your home.........

Hell.......Miss Arlie thinks it's a "waste" for me to have $...........in my new Glock when we've never even had a home invasion !

But if we ever do have, I can assure you, there will be one less "perp" to invade homes !

Do you think that makes me a "killer" ? I think it make me a very healthy 79 year old, law abiding citizen who intends to become at LEAST 100 !


And your thoughts on gun control were.....?

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
fr8mech
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:28 am

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night,

Knife point, back in '84 or '85, but that hardly makes a difference.
Dad was mugged in the early '80's, by someone using a gun (heavily regulated in NY, then and now).
Mom was the victim of an attempted home invasion back in '86 or so.

[Edited 2012-08-11 01:30:22]

[Edited 2012-08-11 01:32:04]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
MrChips
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:30 am

Good lord, what is wrong with your country that you're all so fearful of each other that you don't feel safe going anywhere without a gun.

Forget about gun control (or lack thereof), you guys need a serious, nation-wide attitude adjustment. Last week, a Michigan police officer wrote our local newspaper about how he was walking through a park with his wife here in Calgary when he was "aggressively approached" by two men, who asked them if they'd gone to see the Calgary Stampede (a glorified county fair, to be honest). When he ignored them the first time, they asked him again, prompting the man to step between them and his wife, saying "I have nothing to talk to you about". He then went on and on about how he felt threatened by these two people (who, it turned out later, were handing out complimentary passes to the Stamepede) and how he was outraged that he couldn't carry his gun to "protect" himself because of our laws here in Canada. Sure, it might seem like a reasonable response to some, but to the vast majority of Canadians, pro- or anti-gun, it's utterly absurd in every way.

From where I'm sitting, this fear of everything and everyone gripping the US is spiraling out of control and if it isn't addressed soon, will surely become self-perpetuating.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:32 am

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

Here's a question for everyone on this forum; Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night, in a "bad" neighborhood ?

I've had two such incurences, one in a home, one at a light rail stop. Perpetrators were armed with a pistol and a rusty, broken knife, respectively.

I solved the first one with a fire extinguisher, and in the second incident I simply took the knife out of that particular junkie's hand and offered to have a nearby police officer examine it.

Things got a little messy the first time, and a little awkward the second, but in no case did I need a firearm, nor would having one have made things any better. Plus, I figure I've now used up about six lifetimes' worth of home invasion probability (for me and virtually everyone I know). Which is why I do not buy the "protection" bullshit. There are simply too many other ways to skin that cat.

For the record, that fire extinguisher did a bit more damage than I would have done with a firearm. Just saying...

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I think it make me a very healthy 79 year old, law abiding citizen who intends to become at LEAST 100 !

Hopefully you will do just that. But I don't see how having guns around will do anything for that...

Quoting MrChips (Reply 3):

Good lord, what is wrong with your country that you're all so fearful of each other that you don't feel safe going anywhere without a gun.

I can assure that we're not all like that. In fact, an inexorably growing number of Americans are fed up with the gun lobby's exploitation of events like what we've seen over the last month, and it will lead to removal of the hardware involved sooner or later. The real question is how hard it's going to be fought.

And yes, you're right about our 'fear' outlook, but again it isn't everybody, or even a majority. Trust me when I say I'm not the only one who'd be embarrassed that one of our citizens felt like pulling a gun on a promoter. I'm not sure whether that's silly or sad, but it isn't a good thing.


Edited to reply to MrChips' comment

[Edited 2012-08-11 02:38:58]
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
fr8mech
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:48 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 4):
For the record, that fire extinguisher did a bit more damage than I would have done with a firearm. Just saying...


So, you carry a fire extinguisher around???   

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 4):
I can assure that we're not all like that.


You're right, we're not all 'that'. I'm really not fearful of much. I carry a firearm to provide an additional set of options in the remote chance that I may need those options. In fact, I feel better when I know that I'm in a community where others, who have passed a background check and have passed a competency test, are similarly armed.

It's not a matter of being scared, it's a matter of being prepared. Much like insurance, I hope to never have to use it, but if I need to, I'm glad I have it.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:54 am

I agree that possessing a gun does not make one a killer. However, I think the comparison with a car is false.

A gun is by its very nature designed to kill. It is not intended purely for decoration, digging pastures or playing music: it is meant to be used to kill.

A car is designed as a means of transportation. Yes, it can be used to kill deliberately and it can result in accidental homicide but its primary function is to convey the driver and passengers from one physical location to another.

People may argue that a gun may act as a deterrent, but it is only so because of its primary purpose and the willingness of its owner to use it for that purpose.

Do I believe that people in general should not have the right to bear arms? No but I do think that reasonable limits on the type and quantity, together with appropriate training and character assessments are called for. Safe storage is a must but I am not too sure about being allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Maybe carrying it openly would be better.

But whatever laws are in place, there will always be those that wish to break them either for profit or because they think the laws shouldn't apply to them.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
So, you carry a fire extinguisher around???   

Lol, no, that was the home invasion. I do, for the record, keep a fire extinguisher on every floor of my dwelling.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):

It's not a matter of being scared, it's a matter of being prepared.

But prepared for what, exactly? There's really nothing that you're going to able to do with a gun (and not go to jail for anyway) that's going to save the day. People have this illusion that they can be heroes when a bad guy breaks out a (legally bought in all cases thus far) rapid fire weapon, and use their own CC weapon to save the day. But the reality is that that never happens. Even in cases like AZ (The Tucson/Giffords) event, where there were people in the crowd with guns, no one fired back. There were good reasons for that, all of which completely negated the value of 'defensive' weapons.

The reality is that the wannabe heroes are actually much more likely to end up like Zimmerman, who shot an unarmed citizen, then ever helping anyone out. And that's a problem that requires dealing with.
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
fr8mech
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
Lol, no, that was the home invasion. I do, for the record, keep a fire extinguisher on every floor of my dwelling.


Same here, because I want to be prepared in the unlikely event of a fire. Hope I never need it.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
But prepared for what, exactly?


For the unlikely event of needing to use a firearm. Like, say a

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
home invasion
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
There's really nothing that you're going to able to do with a gun (and not go to jail for anyway) that's going to save the day.


If the firearm is used within the law, you will not go to jail.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
People have this illusion that they can be heroes


I am under no illusion that I will be a hero. All my training is range training (though, it is the range used by the local police forces and has all sorts of 'distraction' options that are available to the public) and have never been under the stress of combat. I have no idea how I may react. Those I know that also carry, feel the same way. We talk about these things.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
But the reality is that that never happens.


Do yourself a favor if you have a Facebook account: 'Like' NRA News for a week or so. They post 'armed citizen' reports almost everyday. You'll be better informed on this particular subject.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 7):
Even in cases like AZ (The Tucson/Giffords) event, where there were people in the crowd with guns, no one fired back.


Because if there were armed citizens, they acted responsibly and did not fire into a crowd. They paid attention to what they were doing and their surroundings.

All I want is to have additional options should I ever find my self in a bad situation. That's all.

Much like insurance or a fire extinguisher, I hope I never have to use a firearm to defend myself, but I feel better knowing that option is available to me.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
ajd1992
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:38 am

It sounds like downtown Kabul, not the US!

I come from a country were guns are highly regulated - you can get a gun but only with a hunting licence, the Police do a home check to make sure you are keeping it in a locked cabinet with the ammo separate etc but guns are starting to become the weapon of choice (although nowhere near the amount of knife crime there is).

My feeling on the situation is this - if you have a gun, then you must be prepared to use it (and kill with it if the situation calls for it). If you are not prepared to kill somebody then you should not have a gun, simple as that. I personally am glad that I live in a country with highly regulated guns (for Christ's Sake, the Team GB shooting team isn't even allowed to train here as their weapons are illegal! They have to go to Switzerland to train).

Lack of gun control has led to events like Columbine and Virginia Tech happening and while we have had similar events here (Dunblane for instance) it is good to have some sort of gun control.

That being said, an example of why gun control is a good idea is gun crime in the US. I'm not bitching about the US - I love it as a country - but there is a horrendous amount of gun crime there, and it's so easy to get a gun provided you aren't a convicted felon and have a week to wait for a background check.
 
comorin
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:08 pm

One good thing about gun related homicides in the US is that you don't have the petty happy-slapping and chav stuff going on here. You touch someone here and you never know if he has a gun and then its all over for you.   

Personal Space, man, is where its at.
 
seb146
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
many people on the forum seem to always refer to people who have guns, as "nuts"........or just "gun nuts";

Just the ones who arm themselves to the teeth for no reason. I understand people who own one or two pistols or shotguns. People hunt for their food, people live in bad neighborhoods. That's fine. But why do people *NEED* automatic and semi-automatic weapons and thousands of rounds of ammo? That should send up a HUGE red flag to the feds.

Also, if people are not "allowed" to have guns in Chicago but the murder rate is one of the highest in the world, could it be people simply ride over to Indiana or Wisconsin and stock up on guns? Or are people too stupid to do that?
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cmf
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
many people on the forum seem to always refer to people who have guns, as "nuts"........or just "gun nuts";

Don't know how you can have missed how often it is used to describe anyone suggesting there should be requirements on those who have guns.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Here's a question for everyone on this forum; Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night, in a "bad" neighborhood ?

No, and not for lack of spending times in bad neighborhoods. If we expand a bit i have experience from several burglaries. Once at one of our homes and twice at my grandfathers place. Several times at warehouses, including where we have had guards.

All of that is minor compared to the too many women I know who have been raped.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
1. Guns don't make you a killer; killing people makes you a killer; you can kill people with a ball bat or a car but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game !

Guns make it easy for people to become killers.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
2. When guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns..........between 1900 and 2000, fifty six million people were murdered by their own governments; gun control is a prerequisite to genocide.

I don't think people having guns at their homes or on them would have made much difference.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
But if we ever do have, I can assure you, there will be one less "perp" to invade homes !

Do you think that makes me a "killer" ?

I think that between you and the "perp", you are the one most likely to end up dead or injured. If not you then someone among your family or friends. Most likely without any "perp" showing up.

I'm not against people owning guns. I have absolutely no problem with hunting and I have just as little problem with people using them at a range.

I do have a problem with people having them for protection without proper training. Police is supposed to have proper training but last year they shoot over a hundred rounds in to a car and the people behind it here in Miami beach. With the training I have received there is no way you open fire just because a car doesn't stop. You follow it until it stops. If someone in the car had been shooting it would be different.

I also have problems with the amount of accidents there are because they are not stored properly. Too often with the excuse to have them available for protection.
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StarAC17
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
In reviewing threads dealing with gun control, one thing "stands out"............many people on the forum seem to always refer to people who have guns, as "nuts"........or just "gun nuts";

Gun nuts are defined by me as the people who fawn over guns and get a high off them, it is joked that they are compensating for something   

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
2. When guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns..........between 1900 and 2000, fifty six million people were murdered by their own governments; gun control is a prerequisite to genocide.

This was true in the 1800's but can the US populace really defend themselves against their own government with the high tech weaponry that the US military has, using citizen organized militias as the 2nd amendment is written. If the US government wanted to take out US citizens with unmanned drones there is nothing stopping them and the fact that people have guns would be useless.

What would prevent this is that the individuals in the military likely wouldn't fire upon their own people but that is a different discussion that has nothing to do with guns and its all about democracy. Also last time I checked countries like Canada, Australia, most of Europe, Japan etc. enjoy the same freedoms as Americans (in some cases we have more) with gun control.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Here's a question for everyone on this forum; Have YOU ever been robbed, at gun-point, late at night, in a "bad" neighborhood ?

I have ! At midnight, downtown Louisville, Ky. while unloading a load of new cars at a "get ready" place. I used to go to this place all the time at night; never had any trouble before..........but this time, two "thugs" decided to see what they could steal out of my truck while I was driving a unit into the building; as I came back out, there stands two "perps", one with my suitcase, and one with a gun in his hand ! Oddly enough, my first thought was, "this can't be real" ! No one with any brains commits armed robbery over a damned suitcase full work clothes ! My next thought.........ANGER ! I became VERY angry ! As I approached, meaning to get my tie-down bar, the perp with the piece started shooting ! In my direction !

I am sorry for your unfortunate experiences, and haven't been in that situation myself.

However if held at gunpoint any remotely competent mugger I would assume would shoot if you went for your gun. They have the advantage unless the one being mugged has some serious training in the ability to disarm at gunpoint, which is a skill I would think few have.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Because if there were armed citizens, they acted responsibly and did not fire into a crowd. They paid attention to what they were doing and their surroundings.

Good on them!!

In the gun debate I wish people would see the problem with the "More Guns" side. I cannot see that if people were packing In Aurora that they would have been able to take down James Holmes without adding to the death toll.

Here are the reasons I see it this way.

- He had weapons that cops don't have easy access too.
- He was armored so it would be very difficult to take him down.
- It was dark and he used a smoke grenade.
- I simply do not trust the marksmanship of the average gun owner.

In fact in the case of this shooting the fact that assault weapons are so easy to get

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Also, if people are not "allowed" to have guns in Chicago but the murder rate is one of the highest in the world, could it be people simply ride over to Indiana or Wisconsin and stock up on guns? Or are people too stupid to do that?

Same thing in DC, people buy in the neighboring states, people in Canada buy guns illegally in the US also. All this argues is that any gun control has to be federally mandated or it won't work. The reality as Michael Moore has even said its not really about the guns. There is merit that gun control would have done nothing to stop a shooting like Aurora however easy access to guns makes it much easier and raises much less red flags than had James Holmes been in say the UK.

People other countries play the same violent video games and see the same movies as Americans do but we don't kill each other with guns at the same rate, not even close per capita. As said in reply 3 the issue with gun violence in the US is more about the culture of fear and aggression than what exists in other countries.

That is the first question and gun control is the second one, figure out why you are more likely to kill each other with guns.
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PPVRA
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 3):
Things got a little messy the first time, and a little awkward the second, but in no case did I need a firearm, nor would having one have made things any better.

And what if you were a diminutive female, or worse, someone with a disease that makes you very weak?

A gun makes the weakest person as strong as the strongest. It's a great power equalizer.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 12):
As said in reply 3 the issue with gun violence in the US is more about the culture of fear and aggression than what exists in other countries.

The high crime rates in the US come from a much lower tolerance of drugs use. You want to take on the drug gangs, they will push back.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
StarAC17
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
The high crime rates in the US come from a much lower tolerance of drugs use. You want to take on the drug gangs, they will push back.

Then makes those gangs and cartels irrelevant by legalizing drugs, but that is a discussion for another thread.
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Tugger
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
And your thoughts on gun control were.....?

First off, there are two types of guns:

Guns for hunting and guns for interpersonal assault.

Guns for hunting are fine in book, they have a fine tradition a heritage of care, education, family values being passed down from one generation to another and of course are used for "life" i.e. human sustenance. People care greatly for their hunting firearms and how and when they are used. The education that goes along with hunting is relatively very good.

Interpersonal assault guns, handguns and assault rifles are used for killing people. They are all about fear, either instilling fear in others or addressing your fears of others. The education that goes along with them is not the same, is not caring and loving. They are "remote control off switches". They are often owned by people who have next to no training on their use. They are owned for a reason of "fear" (as I noted above) and so the mindset of the person carrying them is already an issue. I am not saying that ever person carrying a handgun is bad, but the mindset is different.

My family is a hunting family, I personally do not hunt but have gone hunting with them and have fired my family's guns in a controlled setting. Some of my family also owns handguns but again the mindset is different and you can see it, when they are teaching, and showing their skills during a hunt vs when they are firing their handguns at the range. A hunt is careful, planned, and patient. The time you would use a handgun is not (generally).

So for me I say control interpersonal assault firearms and not hunting firearms. Of course "the gun lobby" (you know, dislike "lobbies" of almost anything in general) "if you let them control one, in time they will take away the other! No gun control!" I am all for serialized ammunition, I am all for some forms of control on the ownership of guns (based on what I noted above) and for controls on sales of guns (too many end up in other countries, in the "criminals hands, no not all and it is a smaller percentage than are used legitimately here but it still needs to be addressed). Fewer guns are not a bad thing and the ability to trace them is not terrible, it will not embolden the government to "take over the people".

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):

And what if you were a diminutive female, or worse, someone with a disease that makes you very weak?


What if you're a convicted felon? Imagine that for second, you're Martha Stewart, being assaulted by someone with a legally bought semi-auto who while being a total psychopath, has a clean enough background to have been enabled to attack you in this way. How does that fit into your universe?


To answer your question, I had a broken arm at the time. That good enough? A fire extinguisher is a great home defense article. As I learned at the time, it's actually two weapons. You have step 1, discharge contents at assailant, step 2, it's a decently heavy & solid object, you do the math.

Also, they're really good at putting out actual fires. I do not know of anyone who's ever been saved from being burned to death or smoke inhalation from a P-90.
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6627
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Also, if people are not "allowed" to have guns in Chicago but the murder rate is one of the highest in the world, could it be people simply ride over to Indiana or Wisconsin and stock up on guns? Or are people too stupid to do that?

No, they are not too stupid. In fact, I'm sure criminals, that are able to get guns because they haven't been convicted, do it all the time. Where does that leave the law-abiding citizen that lives in those cities? Unarmed and defensless waiting on a police force that has no duty to protect them.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 12):
- He had weapons that cops don't have easy access too.
- He was armored so it would be very difficult to take him down.
- It was dark and he used a smoke grenade.
- I simply do not trust the marksmanship of the average gun owner.

Police have plenty of access to the AR-15 platform and shotguns. Two of my good friends are police officers and both have shotguns in their vehicles and one of them has an AR-15 since he's a member of the tactical team.

While he may have been armored, getting shot would have distracted him. Get hit by a big enough round and you're going to get knocked down.

Fair enough, it was dark and he used a smoke grenade. That does work both ways. It also means that he would not be able to see people moving on him. He was wearing a mask for God's sake. Ever wear one? Your vision is retricted to what's in front of you.

Neither do I. I trust my markmanship, but would question it under a stressful situation. Someone firing back at this lunatic would still have been better than waiting for him to run out of ammunition.

Like I said, I have no clue how I would behave under similar circumstances, but it certainly is comforting to know that I may have options other than "I hope he doesn't get me...or my family". I hope to God I never have see how I react.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Geezer
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
I think that between you and the "perp", you are the one most likely to end up dead or injured. If not you then someone among your family or friends. Most likely without any "perp" showing up.

I understand what you are saying, and I partially agree with you; But here's what YOU don't understand; there are exactly two adults in our house, myself and Miss Arlie; no children, no friends, no "family" except for when they come to visit a few times a year. You have been reading about all of the "accidents" caused by un-trained people shooting family members; That's the part I agree on; no one should keep a loaded gun for any reason, UNLESS he / she has been properly trained, and actually has a "plan" to prevent such accidents. I didn't just run out and take a quick course on how to shoot a pistol..........I have been shooting pistols since I was 15 years old; but just knowing how to "operate" the gun is only the beginning; you must also be VERY familiar with the law where YOU live; I constantly read about that all the time; That's where my friendship with our county sheriff has been invaluable.

I'm not against people owning guns. I have absolutely no problem with hunting and I have just as little problem with people using them at a range.

About "hunting"........I live in a very rural area; we have a very large deer population, squirrels all over the place, and I could shoot wild turkeys anytime if I so desired, as they are quite common around here. But I'm NOT a "hunter"; I love animals; I buy my "meat" at the grocery store, and I eat my "steak" about 3 times a week at Ryan's in Terre Haute. ( I don't even like venison ) If I wanted to kill a deer, I could do it any morning from inside my front door, as they always come out of the woods across the road about daybreak to forage in the field. But I have no interest in killing any kind of animal; (the possible exception being the few starlings which make such pests of themselves at my bird feeders in the back yard  so far I have even refrained doing that, as I don't wish to frighten my woodpeckers and chickadees !

Now........about my pistols;

[quote=seb146,reply=10]I do have a problem with people having them for protection without proper training. Police is supposed to have proper training but last year they shoot over a hundred rounds in to a car and the

The key words here being "without proper training"; Not only do I have "proper training", I regularly go to a indoor / outdoor range only 5 miles from here and shoot targets; I ENJOY shooting targets, and I enjoy meeting and interacting with like-minded individuals who regularly come to the range, including many LE officers.

Fire extinguishers; I'm very BIG on them; I have several different kinds, from a 5 lb CO2 bottle with horn, and about five 40 lb Ansul dry chemical units. When I was in the Navy, as I was a ship fitter / metalsmith, I received a lot of intensive training on damage control; from the time I was a small child, (with a brother-in-law who was on the Cincinnati Fire Dept) until I went into the Navy in 1951, I learned a LOT about fire fighting; But I have a few more things that are even more "effective" for deterring criminal intent; one of the best, easy to carry, easy to use, easy to obtain "perp" control items, (even better than pepper spray), is an aerosol can of wasp & hornet killer; ( I get mine at Menard's for $3 a can ); shoots a 32 foot concentrated stream, very easy to aim, and VERY "effective"! One alert citizen with one can could have drastically reduced the fatalities at the recent theater incident; ( I personally wouldn't have been any help though, as I never go to movie theaters any more. )

About Chicago (and their gun control law); I love to go to Chicago; we always ride the Metra to Union Station; until just 2 or 3 yrs ago, we even occasionally WALKED over to Lake Shore Drive, but no more ! Now, you risk being "set upon" by gangs of teen-age thugs ! (see recent headlines, Chicago Tribune) So now we take a cab; however........anyone attempting to harass, rob, or otherwise molest me or Miss Arlie.........will be getting a face full of wasp & hornet killer; and while they are trying to regain their sight, they very well may receive a thrashing from my tactical baton !

See, what law abiding people who don't care to fight back, don't understand is.........street criminals do what they do because they don't expect victims to fight back ! I may be 79 yrs old, I may only be 165 lbs/ 5' 8", but I STILL fight back ! And I AM trained ! I can still give a very good account of myself if I'm attacked; it's really not just about size, or age.......it's also about "will"; I'm the type of person that while I never meet a stranger, and I love people, I also REFUSE to be anyone's victim. The older I become, the more dangerous I become to anyone with criminal intent; while I was still working for a living, I defended myself with my hands, and I did a pretty good job of it; now, I'm at the point in life now where society no longer expects me to fight back with my hands; now I use my experience, my "wits", and anything else necessary to prevent me from becoming a victim.

Gun control is just one more attempt to make me a victim.

Charley

(P.S. Sorry it took so long to say all that, but it's not something you can say in a few words )
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Why Not Gun Control 

It needs to be people control, not gun control.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 2):
Good lord, what is wrong with your country that you're all so fearful of each other that you don't feel safe going anywhere without a gun.

Because we are fearful of wackos like James Holmes.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
Geezer
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 20):
Because we are fearful of wackos like James Holmes.


You know, there always has been, and there always will be wacko's, however, when I was a kid things were a lot different than they are today; we didn't have any computers, so there were no computer or video games encouraging young kids to murder people, and most kids had two parents, and usually only the father worked at a job.

Also, we didn't have movies showing people having sexual intercourse, talking like trash, and back then, you could actually believe most of what you saw on NBC, ABC, & CBS; but those days are long gone ! It's far too complex to really get into, but it's really obvious why we have so many more nut-jobs like this Holmes creep. But we do have them, and not all of them are "home grown", as the British found out when their trains were blown up.

I never imagined I'd see the day that I would be reluctant to walk from Chicago's Union Station to Lake Shore Drive either; but just three or four weeks ago, a 40 yr old man in Chicago on business was attacked and very nearly beaten to death by a gang teen agers, all within an hour of a lady and her husband nearly being killed while exiting the "elevated". If you think about this for just a minute, it's very clear; these "sidewalk criminals" know everyone is un-armed, and thereby quite defenseless; so they run amuck ! If a few of them tried this crap on someone who pulled out a (legal) weapon, and "ventilated" their skulls with a few well placed shots, the incidence of street crime would go WAY DOWN !

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 2):

Good lord, what is wrong with your country that you're all so fearful of each other that you don't feel safe going anywhere without a gun.

Of course you'd also have to wonder what is wrong that we're all so fearful of each other that we'd feel the need to take everyone's guns away.

Personally, I neither feel the need to own and carry a gun nor do I feel the need to ban others from owning or carrying guns.

[Edited 2012-08-11 18:19:54]
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Geezer
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:00 am

I just did a bit more research; (mainly to make sure I spell the names right)

Remember Elian Gonzalez ? Go to google and type in his name; you will shortly be looking at...........Elian as he looks today, 10 yrs later. and you'll also see a photo of Janet Reno, Bill Clintons famous Attorney General. Miss Reno is a prime example or "government power run amuck"; she is the Government bureaucrat who, due to a complete lack of judgement, common sense, (and who knows what else), ordered ATF agents in helmets and full combat dress, and armed with automatic weapons,
(yes, real machine guns) to break down the door, (without knocking), barge in and stick their machine guns in the faces of family members of this young Cuban boy, who was at the heart of an immigration dispute at the time.

(You will also see the ATF guy with his automatic weapon sticking in a frightened citizen's face)

This is the SAME Janet Reno who ordered the ATF to attack a bunch of wacko "religious nut-jobs" with automatic weapons, a battle tank, and burn down the whole building, and thus cremating several dozens of idiot men, women and little children ! (The little kids weren't idiots, only victims)

Still think YOUR government would never "do such things" ?

I'm certainly not supporting the fools who got this fiasco started; I AM pointing out, a liberal President, Bill Clinton, appointed such an idiot as Janet Reno to a position of power that was about 39 pay grades over her head ! I'm NOT a seditionist, I DO NOT advocate the violent overthrow of our government, I merely advocate electing a president capable of appointing people of sufficient common sense to be able to handle these jobs of tremendous responsibility !

Neither Bill Clinton nor B. Obama has been able to do that; and they BOTH advocate gun control................

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
3DoorsDown
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:28 am

Why Not Gun Control?

Gun control is hitting the target.
Enough said.
 
cmf
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 23):
Remember Elian Gonzalez ? Go to google and type in his name; you will shortly be looking at...........Elian as he looks today, 10 yrs later. and you'll also see a photo of Janet Reno, Bill Clintons famous Attorney General. Miss Reno is a prime example or "government power run amuck"; she is the Government bureaucrat who, due to a complete lack of judgement, common sense, (and who knows what else), ordered ATF agents in helmets and full combat dress, and armed with automatic weapons,
(yes, real machine guns) to break down the door, (without knocking), barge in and stick their machine guns in the faces of family members of this young Cuban boy, who was at the heart of an immigration dispute at the time.

Remember it very well. A bunch of idiots ignoring every rule there is to keep a kid from being returned to his father because he is in Cuba. If he was from Haiti it wouldn't have made two paragraphs in Miami Herald unless people started to complain about the government wasting money by giving them days and days to come out.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 23):
This is the SAME Janet Reno who ordered the ATF to attack a bunch of wacko "religious nut-jobs" with automatic weapons, a battle tank, and burn down the whole building, and thus cremating several dozens of idiot men, women and little children ! (The little kids weren't idiots, only victims)

No doubt a lot went wrong but I think your description of facts is very selective.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 23):
I'm certainly not supporting the fools who got this fiasco started; I AM pointing out, a liberal President, Bill Clinton, appointed such an idiot as Janet Reno to a position of power that was about 39 pay grades over her head ! I'm NOT a seditionist, I DO NOT advocate the violent overthrow of our government, I merely advocate electing a president capable of appointing people of sufficient common sense to be able to handle these jobs of tremendous responsibility !

You actually advocate she should not have approved it? Seems to me the problem was in how it was executed, not in the order.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Geezer
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:29 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
No doubt a lot went wrong but I think your description of facts is very selective.

No doubt a lot went wrong ? Are you kidding ? Listen.......no battle is any better than the person commanding it; ever hear about "the buck stops at the top" ? Janet Reno was at "the top"; that's my point ! The woman was totally incompetent for the task at hand. Under the circumstances, I can see having the tank; even busting down the wall with it; but that's when it went "haywire".............using incendiary munitions in a frame structure, containing women and children ? Janet Reno should have been HANGED !

[quote=cmf,reply=25]Remember it very well. A bunch of idiots ignoring every rule there is to keep a kid from being returned to his father because he is in Cuba. If he was from Haiti it wouldn't have made two paragraphs in Miami

So.... now family members who love this child, are taking excellent care of him, are IDIOTS ? Because they don't want this child to return to what...........Castro's brutal communist regime ? But again, that's not my point; my point is.......you don't NEED a damned swat team to remove a child from un-armed, law abiding relatives ! That's my point ! (And your mention of Haiti is a feeble attempt to speculate about "race", is idle speculation on your part, and has absolutely NO relevance to the subject being discussed.

I'm making the point here that our own government sometimes makes unbelievably stupid "mistakes"! Want yet another example ? How about Ruby Ridge ? No doubt Randy Weaver was a nut-job; but the point being........he wasn't hurting anyone ! He wasn't blowing anything up, wasn't killing anyone, he was just "getting away from it all"; so in comes the FBI; a perfectly fine organization; ( 99% of the time ) So now we have a supposedly "highly trained" agent, scoped sniper rifle in hand, has his cross hairs on............an un-armed woman with a toddler in her arms ! And said highly trained agent then proceeds to squeeze off a round, killing the woman instantly ! Speaking of "nut-jobs"..............Remember Timothy McVey ?

His big contribution to society came a few years later; but WHY did he do such a depraved thing as blow up the Federal Building in Okie City ? mainly because he was so "pissed", so outraged by the two incidents above; plus, he was "nuts" to begin with. When government "screws up" to this extent, there will always be repercussions to the screw ups.

That's why a population of law abiding citizens needs to be armed, because would-be dictators KNOW there's a lot of fire power "out there" if the government decides to "run amuck". If you can't understand that, god help you, and I rest my case.

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
You actually advocate she should not have approved it? Seems to me the problem was in how it was executed, not in the order.

I'm advocating that Reno should have been FIRED, then replaced with someone with experience and common sense, two qualities she was totally lacking in.

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:40 am

I don't own guns, and sure it would be nice if the gun laws were made stricter as to the type/quantity of weapon one can own, but the fact is the horse has bolted - if they changed things today, they would just force those who already possess certain weapons legally to hide the fact and force them underground, but ultimately the guns would still be out there in society with no problems solved..
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:13 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
Of course you'd also have to wonder what is wrong that we're all so fearful of each other that we'd feel the need to take everyone's guns away.

It's the same thing - paranoia. Other "First World" countries manage perfectly well without the 2nd Amendment and their murder and gun-crime rates are way lower that those of the US.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
Castro's brutal communist regime ?

Have you actually been to Cuba?
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something
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:30 am

There is a direct correlation between the prevalence of guns in an area, gun-related crimes and gun-related accidents. The tiny number of lives that have been saved by liberal gun possession laws does in no way justify the inconceivably high number of preventable gun-related tragedies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLuKJd0yqdA

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 3):
I can assure that we're not all like that. In fact, an inexorably growing number of Americans are fed up with the gun lobby's exploitation of events like what we've seen over the last month, and it will lead to removal of the hardware involved sooner or later. The real question is how hard it's going to be fought.

Mothers and intellectuals are the only two groups of people that I have found to advocate for stricter gun control in the USA. As long as you keep the weaker minded portions of society believe that a gun will protect them, and that violence or force are somehow socially acceptable in whatever context, nothing is going to change.

People don't believe Obama is not a muslim. How are you going to make people take comfort in scientific findings and statistics?

Edit and P.S. To preempt possible cases of panty-bunching due to my characterization of gun-advocates as 'weak minded': Renouncing what irrefutable science suggests because one's baser, primitive drives overpower one's rationality is on par with my definition of being weak-minded.

[Edited 2012-08-12 03:38:09]
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cmf
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
So.... now family members who love this child, are taking excellent care of him, are IDIOTS ?

I'm sure that if Cuba wasn't involved you would condemn anyone who suggested the kid should be brought up by relatives instead of his father. And yes there were idiots. Not because they loved and how they took care of him. For how they refused to return him to his father in defiance with court orders and the circus they created because of their hate for Castro.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
.you don't NEED a damned swat team to remove a child from un-armed, law abiding relatives

Your memory must be failing. They were not law abiding. They were kidnappers who got an insane amount of chances to do the right thing. If it wasn't for the politics in regards to Cuba all of them would be in jail.

You may also have forgotten the statements made by the Miami relatives and many of the Cuban community. There was constantly a large crowed in front of the house with many of them very outspoken and several of them with concealed weapons permits. As it turned out no shots were fired but they did interfere.

If you feel you need to be armed for your protection without direct threats what do you think the agents tasked with carrying out the court order felt in that situation?

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
(And your mention of Haiti is a feeble attempt to speculate about "race", is idle speculation on your part, and has absolutely NO relevance to the subject being discussed.

Race? That is your fabrication. The difference between Cuba and the rest of the islands is about politics. If Castro had been a local dictator as Papa Doc instead of becoming a pawn in the cold war the Elian story would have been very different.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
How about Ruby Ridge ?

How about it? What else do you need to make it clear that gun usage in this country is insane?

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
So now we have a supposedly "highly trained" agent, scoped sniper rifle in hand, has his cross hairs on............an un-armed woman with a toddler in her arms ! And said highly trained agent then proceeds to squeeze off a round, killing the woman instantly ! Speaking of "nut-jobs"

Why the rewrite? He did not aim at her. He was aiming at Weaver who was opening the door and she stood behind it.

I'm not defending what they did. It is against all training I have received and there are many other problems with the rules they got but why did you rewrite the event so dramatically?

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
That's why a population of law abiding citizens needs to be armed, because would-be dictators KNOW there's a lot of fire power "out there" if the government decides to "run amuck". If you can't understand that, god help you, and I rest my case.

What you need to understand is that you do not fix the kind of situation you're describing with weapons. It is a recipe for failure you're advocating.

Don't you see the fallacy when you use McVey's actions to justify your position?

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
I'm advocating that Reno should have been FIRED, then replaced with someone with experience and common sense, two qualities she was totally lacking in.

So you hate Reno but what actions should she had taken?

You had a rant about how the First Lady's office is too costly. How much did the circuses you use to justify your position cost? The only consistency I see in your argument is your hate for government.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
TransIsland
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 26):
Remember Timothy McVey ?

His big contribution to society came a few years later; but WHY did he do such a depraved thing as blow up the Federal Building in Okie City ? mainly because he was so "pissed", so outraged by the two incidents above

McVeigh was so pissed off by the Elian Gonzalez affair, which occurred in the year 2000, that he blew up a building in Oklahoma City in 1995? Excellent.   
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 17):
What if you're a convicted felon? Imagine that for second, you're Martha Stewart, being assaulted by someone with a legally bought semi-auto who while being a total psychopath, has a clean enough background to have been enabled to attack you in this way. How does that fit into your universe?

What difference does it make if a convicted felon is trying to kill Martha Stewart and he shows up without a firearm? She will still end up dead.

And what if the above situation happens, but Martha is the one with a semi-auto? How does that fit into your universe?

[Edited 2012-08-12 10:34:53]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 17):
To answer your question, I had a broken arm at the time. That good enough?

If you are able to attack an assailant with a fire extinguisher using only one arm while the other is broken, that makes you a pretty physically capable person, which isn't going to help your argument in any way.

[Edited 2012-08-12 10:33:52]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
cmf
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
And what if the above situation happens, but Martha is the one with a semi-auto? How does that fit in your universe?

Martha is the convicted felon...
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 8):
Lack of gun control has led to events like Columbine and Virginia Tech happening and while we have had similar events here (Dunblane for instance) it is good to have some sort of gun control.

Tell that to the people of Chicago and DC some of the most gun controlled cities in the US where an avg. of 8 people die a day. The research shows where there is little or no gun control there is little crime and vice versa.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 12):

The AR15 is not an 'assault' weapon. Your average deer/elk/moose hunting rifle is more poweful than an AR15.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
cmf
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 35):
Tell that to the people of Chicago and DC some of the most gun controlled cities in the US where an avg. of 8 people die a day. The research shows where there is little or no gun control there is little crime and vice versa.

Explain how that applies to Chicago and DC but not the rest of the industrialized world.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
TransIsland
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 35):
Tell that to the people of Chicago and DC some of the most gun controlled cities in the US where an avg. of 8 people die a day. The research shows where there is little or no gun control there is little crime and vice versa.

The murder count for Chicago was 433 in 2011, or 1.19 a day, or 85% lower than you claim.
The murder count for Washington, DC was 108 in 2011, or 0.30 a day, or 96% lower than you claim.

And while I don't doubt that somewhere in this magical place called the Internet you will find statistics that show that US states with higher gun ownership are less crime ridden, believe you me that I can find some that will show especially gun-related crime increasing in those same places. However, what you present as a "fact" is just plain wrong.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
Geezer
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:20 am

[quote=scbriml,reply=28]Have you actually been to Cuba?

As a matter of fact, yes I have! However it was sometime before the "bearded one" took over...........all, of which is completely irrelevant of course, as there are millions of people who have NEVER been to Cuba, but they certainly realize what a brutal tyrant Castro is / was.


[quote=TransIsland,reply=31]McVeigh was so pissed off by the Elian Gonzalez affair, which occurred in the year 2000, that he blew up a building in Oklahoma City in 1995? Excellent.   


Gee, I sure hate to burst your bubble, (thinking, I've got him now), but you'd better go back and look at what I wrote; McVey was pissed off about "Waco" & "Ruby Ridge"; ( I'm fully aware of when the Elian Gonzalez bru-ha-ha took place, and I'm just as capable of going to google when my memory for dates lets me down.)


[quote=cmf,reply=30]So you hate Reno but what actions should she had taken?

First of all, I never said anything about "hating" anyone; that's Your attempt to put words in my mouth; as another matter of fact, I actually felt somewhat "sorry" for the poor, pathetic old maid; Janet isn't a bad person, but she WAS totally incompetent to be the Attorney General; And she was even LESS competent to be in charge of a ridiculous situation such as the Waco situation presented. To answer your question "what action should she have taken", that's an easy one; they should have taken David Koresh into custody during the many opportunities they passed up while he was away from his "compound". Reno wasn't the only one who "screwed up" at Waco, but she WAS however at the top of the chain of command.

You had a rant about how the First Lady's office is too costly. How much did the circuses you use to justify your position cost? The only consistency I see in your argument is your hate for government.


Spoken like a true liberal ! A taxpaying citizen complains about "Queen Michelle" blowing millions on dozens of highly paid "flunkies", and is called "a rant"; Let me tell you something...........there are a hell of more tax-paying citizens in this country who are considerably more pissed off by her arrogant abuse of our tax dollars, even though YOU may be "just fine" with it ! Frankly, I'm not too terribly concerned about how "consistent" you think my "arguments" are; And BTW.........there you go again, tossing around the "H" word ! I'm beginning to think you must have read Alinsky's book ! Your "rants" sound like they were taken from it !

What you need to think about is...........the mere fact that someone else's opinion doesn't jive with yours, doesn't necessarily make THEM wrong, but more often, just the opposite.

Charley
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:49 am

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 38):

What you need to think about is...........the mere fact that someone else's opinion doesn't jive with yours, doesn't necessarily make THEM wrong, but more often, just the opposite.

What? So if you disagree with someone, you're automatically wrong about something? Is that what you're saying?
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Max Q
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:16 am

It's more than just the 'right to bear arms' (which incidentally doesn't specify firearms)


The issue for many is a feeling of being helpless without a gun.



That combined with a love of the weapon itself is a large part of the problem.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 37):

The murder count for Chicago was 433 in 2011, or 1.19 a day, or 85% lower than you claim.
The murder count for Washington, DC was 108 in 2011, or 0.30 a day, or 96% lower than you claim.

And while I don't doubt that somewhere in this magical place called the Internet you will find statistics that show that US states with higher gun ownership are less crime ridden, believe you me that I can find some that will show especially gun-related crime increasing in those same places. However, what you present as a "fact" is just plain wrong.

Please don't try to confuse a gun lover with facts.
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seb146
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 35):
The research shows where there is little or no gun control there is little crime and vice versa.

Sweden, Norway, Canada and Japan must be like hell. Whereas Somalia and Sudan are paradise.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Where does it say every man, woman, and child can own as many automatic/semi-automatic weapons and as many rounds as they want?
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fr8mech
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
Where does it say every man, woman, and child can own as many automatic/semi-automatic weapons and as many rounds as they want?

Where does it say they can't?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
Whereas Somalia and Sudan are paradise

You always bring up that specious comparison. We don't advocate for 'no government'. We advocate for smaller, more efficient government. One that does the job that is spelled out in The Constitution.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 40):
(which incidentally doesn't specify firearms)

I guess we could carry swords, but they're so much harder to conceal.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 35):
The AR15 is not an 'assault' weapon. Your average deer/elk/moose hunting rifle is more poweful than an AR15.

You're incorrect. An AR-15, most definetly fits the definition of assault weapon (rifle), both in common terms and under the lapsed Assault Weapons Ban. You are also correct, that your average big game rifle packs a more powerful punch.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Neither do I. I trust my markmanship, but would question it under a stressful situation. Someone firing back at this lunatic would still have been better than waiting for him to run out of ammunition.

Fire back at him all you want to, but if your's or anyone else shots add to the body count you should be held responsible.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 23):
This is the SAME Janet Reno who ordered the ATF to attack a bunch of wacko "religious nut-jobs" with automatic weapons, a battle tank, and burn down the whole building, and thus cremating several dozens of idiot men, women and little children ! (The little kids weren't idiots, only victims)

Still think YOUR government would never "do such things" ?

No government is perfect but do you really think that owning a gun even a military grade one is going to prevent this kind of raid from happening. If any of these people had drawn a weapon on that ATF team all that would have happened is a bunch of dead Cuban ex-pats and one or two ATF members.

The second amendment is valid for 1785 and not 2012 because then actually being able to seize control of the government through force was plausible now its a death wish.

If you don't like what your government does then make your voice clear at the ballot box like every other democracy in the world.
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windy95
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 37):
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 35):
Tell that to the people of Chicago and DC some of the most gun controlled cities in the US where an avg. of 8 people die a day. The research shows where there is little or no gun control there is little crime and vice versa.


The murder count for Chicago was 433 in 2011, or 1.19 a day, or 85% lower than you claim.
The murder count for Washington, DC was 108 in 2011, or 0.30 a day, or 96% lower than you claim.

His quote says the average in gun controlled cities not in each of those two individual cities. And I am sure he forgot the . before the .8 which would fit in. So Chicago is actually way higher that then the average and DC is below it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
Where does it say every man, woman, and child can own as many automatic/semi-automatic weapons and as many rounds as they want?

Where does it say they can't?

They always forget that part.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):
but if your's or anyone else shots add to the body count you should be held responsible.

I never said I shouldn't be held responsible. Everyone should always be held responsible for their actions or inactions. There should be accountablility.

But, you think it's better that a shooter be allowed to continue his rampage? It's better that all the victims just lay there and cringe in terror? With the futile hope that he loses interest in the killing before he gets to them? That's a better scenerio?

I know, your scenario includes that this killer never gets a gun. And, that would be a nice utopian outlook, but even in some of the strictest gun contolled societies, the sociopaths have gotten their weapons. When you take them away from the populace, you just ensure that the killer is the only one with a gun.

[Edited 2012-08-13 10:49:36]
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bjorn14
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
shall not be infringed.

Let's start with that.

Chicago murder rate will probably exceed 500 this year.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/cri...ers-for-2012-likely-to-exceed-2011

And Rahm Emmanuel's most important policy decision is keeping Chick-Fil-A out of Chicago.
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seb146
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 46):
Chicago murder rate will probably exceed 500 this year.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/cri...ers-for-2012-likely-to-exceed-2011

And Rahm Emmanuel's most important policy decision is keeping Chick-Fil-A out of Chicago.

I see. So, just keep giving everyone guns and that will make the problem go away?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
We advocate for smaller, more efficient government. One that does the job that is spelled out in The Constitution.

Exactly. Somalia and Sudan have small governments. That's what the right-wing in the United States wants: small government.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 44):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
Where does it say every man, woman, and child can own as many automatic/semi-automatic weapons and as many rounds as they want?

Where does it say they can't?
They always forget that part.

I can not make the connection between "well regulated militia" and private citizens stockpiling hundreds of automatic and semi-automatic weapons. What does massive firepower held by one person have to do with a well regulated militia?

Again, as I said in a previous post: I don't care that people own guns. I do believe there should be limits as to who and how many. At least red flags sent up for one person stockpiling military grade artillary.
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StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
But, you think it's better that a shooter be allowed to continue his rampage? It's better that all the victims just lay there and cringe in terror? With the futile hope that he loses interest in the killing before he gets to them? That's a better scenerio?

Here is the issue with that logic, you are not going to be the only person that thinks this way and unless you prove otherwise this will likely add to the body count of a massacre if you have dozens of people shooting guns, many not knowing who the suspect is.

In the case of Aurora, how would you not know that Holmes didn't have an accomplice in the theater??

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
I know, your scenario includes that this killer never gets a gun. And, that would be a nice utopian outlook, but even in some of the strictest gun contolled societies, the sociopaths have gotten their weapons. When you take them away from the populace, you just ensure that the killer is the only one with a gun.

That is putting words in my mouth.

I have never said that and I do not agree to take away guns from cops and perhaps private security, the latter is a much better method to prevent public shootings but people wouldn't stand for it.

People I know are far more trained with firearms that average civilians, saying that if you want a gun to protect your home that is fine but to have everyone packing in public is a recipe for disaster.

I would actually advocate that a person who decided to own a gun should attend training to show that they can operate a gun effectively, but I reckon for some that would be unconstitutional.
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mt99
Posts: 6166
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RE: Why Not Gun Control

Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 46):
Let's start with that.

Chicago murder rate will probably exceed 500 this year.

And the follow up question is: were all those murders performed with the types of weapons that are banned?
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