TheCommodore
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Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:04 pm

What the heck is happening in the US ??

3 mass shootings in 1 month   and yet I bet, because of the up coming elections, US politician's will remain mute, on any discussions/debate regarding gun control. Perhaps this is because they don't want to upset the apple cart (NRA)

I just don't get it, I'm sorry.

After reading all the threads on gun ownership in the US, and the endless discussion about the "constitution" with the right to bare arms, it certainly appears that things are only going from bad to worse.

So why do so many of our American friends, want to continue with the status quo ???   

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10826790

And

http://www.smh.com.au/world/three-de...-us-university-20120814-245bf.html
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:32 pm

"If only there'd been more armed people there..."

Oh wait, there were.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
rfields5421
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:02 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
3 mass shootings in 1 month

Three mass shootings where?

This wasn't a mass shooting. It was a constable serving an eviction notice - and the person being served the warrant reacted by shooting the officer. Afterwards, the shooter and other police officers exchanged a lot of shots, resulting in the death of one bystander and injuries to at least one other civilian and a couple police officers.


Yes, we do have a lot of shootings in the US.


On Jul 24 in Dallas we had a police officer who shot and killed an unarmed suspect who was attacking him

On Jul 23 in Dallas a man with permit to carry a concealed handgun accidentally fired the gun in a Walmart store, injuring one person with chips from the broken floor concrete flying into the air.

Also in the past couple weeks in Dallas, a 14 year old girl was shot in her bed in her home by 'friends' who had become upset over posts on Facebook, and confronted the girl at her home. After being ordered to leave by adults, the young girls returned in the early morning hours and fired several shots at the house, hitting the girl with whom they were having the argument.

We also had two murders over the past three days in the Dallas area where the weapon used was a knife.

No I don't have an answer on how to lessen the carnage. But when we have people who have passed training courses, and passed background investigations accidentally discharging guns in crowded stores - such gun control measures are not the final answer.

Nothing is going to solve people being stupid.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:28 am

FYI - the situation in the United Kingdom (pop 62.6m).

The number of homicides per year committed with firearms is about 50 per year (highest on record in the last decade is 97). Two fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales between 1998 and 2006. Total number of murders of all kinds committed in a year is usually around 650. About 6% involve the use of a firearm.
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3DoorsDown
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
So why do so many of our American friends, want to continue with the status quo ???

I think the majority of Americans would not like to continue status quo. But guaranteed there is no way to get all the guns back that are distributed all over the US, and if they are out there in the wrong hands, then people who own guns legally will want to keep theirs for protection if required.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 3):
Total number of murders of all kinds committed in a year is usually around 650. About 6% involve the use of a firearm.

So are the other 94% beaten to death with a stale crumpet?  
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:58 am

The United States is simply going insane, in my opinion.

A good friend works for a major bank here. He was servicing a bank ATM located in a rough section of Washington, DC yesterday. A young woman with a baby in a baby carrier was using the tandem ATM to the one he was fixing. She walked away from the ATM, leaving the baby there. My friend yelled to the woman "Hey, you forgot your baby!" and the woman took off running. Police are still looking for her. The baby is with Child Protective Services.

And my friend's company van was broken into while he was interviewed by the cops - the sliding door was crow-barred open and some of his work tools were stolen. While the cops were half a block away!!! Insanity reigns.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
danielmyatt
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 4):
So are the other 94% beaten to death with a stale crumpet?  

Silly person, stale crumpets go soft not hard, don't you know anything?  
Now a frozen steak and kidney puddingon the other hand!
 
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falstaff
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 5):
The United States is simply going insane, in my opinion

Drugs..... I blame most of the problem on the huge number of junkies.

Day after day there are murders in Detroit and nearly all of them involve drugs in some way. I have a friend who manages a scrap yard and daily the police are there arresting thieves who are brining in stolen metal and most of them are junkies. The people next door to me were fighting and steeling on a regular basis (until they were evicted) drugs were the reason. The brawls and arrests were all about drugs. Much of the violence I have seen at my job is related to drugs. Since I have been teaching I have lost 20 former students(maybe more that I don't know of) to drugs and drug violence.

I was washing my car at a car wash up the street from my house one and three teens jumped out of a van and started running at me, or so I thought. One had a baseball bat and one had a golf club. I jumped into my car but when I saw them run past me I knew they weren't coming after me so I continued to wash my car. They ran up to another teenager and asked "where my money" He said he didn't have it and the other said "Then give me my shit". The guy said he didn't have that either. They proceeded to beat him and when he was on the ground he pulled out a wad of money. The one guy counted the money and said "don't let this happen again". They walked away and one of the guys said to me "Just Business". That was drug related violence and is everywhere. If you get rid of the drugs the junkies go away and a lot of our problems will go away.



Drugs and a huge problem and the cycle has gone on long enough that people just have created more junkies.

I love it when I hear some hippy say drugs are a victimless crime. Tell that the guy robbed by junkie or killed in a drug deal.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2):
Three mass shootings where?

This wasn't a mass shooting.

No it wasn't and it only got national attention because it was close to a big name college campus. Back when I was doing post grad stuff at the University of Detroit a drug dealer (or so the police said) was shot right in front of the campus and his car crashed through a store. That didn't even make the Newspaper

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
"If only there'd been more armed people there..."

Only if there were less degenerates who were armed. I have 40 guns and between my friends and I we probably have well over 200. None of us feels the need to shoot, rob, steal, etc. So it isn't the gun it is the worthless derelict that holds it.

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 4):
But guaranteed there is no way to get all the guns back that are distributed all over the US

When the government comes to take my guns there will be dead government agents at my doors. They will have to kill me to get them. I feel that strongly about it and so do millions of other people.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 3):
Total number of murders of all kinds committed in a year is usually around 650. About 6% involve the use of a firearm.

That statistic shows that those that want to murder still do. I would say that those that kill without a gun are more twisted than those who do. Without a gun you usually have to get right next to a person to kill them.
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DocLightning
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:06 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I love it when I hear some hippy say drugs are a victimless crime. Tell that the guy robbed by junkie or killed in a drug deal.

If they were legal, the drug deal would be no different than buying a beer. And the drugs are not causing the problem. The illegality is causing the problem.

I'm sorry, but drugs don't fire weapons. The guns are the problem.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Only if there were less degenerates who were armed.

So you DO support stricter gun regulation?
-Doc Lightning-

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Mir
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
When the government comes to take my guns there will be dead government agents at my doors. They will have to kill me to get them. I feel that strongly about it and so do millions of other people.

I hope this isn't the case, but this makes it sound like you support the murder of police officers when they are posing no threat to anyone's life.

-Mir
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BMI727
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I'm sorry, but drugs don't fire weapons. The guns are the problem.

Do you expect cartels to be showing up to the police station turning in their guns when the anti-gun law passes? Or are they going to use their rather considerable resources to ensure that they remain armed to the teeth no matter what the law says?

And by the way, when was the last time two bar or quickie mart owners decided to shoot at each other over alcohol sales the way bootleggers did?
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futureualpilot
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):

Yeah, because alcohol NEVER causes any problems. Legalizing drugs won't stop the problems they create. At least we could probably benefit from taxing them but it won't solve a thing.

The problem isn't guns or drugs it's the idiots that have no business functioning in society that can get their hands on them.

I'm with the "if guns kill people, then pencils fail tests and spoons make you fat" crowd.
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Mir
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 11):
Yeah, because alcohol NEVER causes any problems. Legalizing drugs won't stop the problems they create.

You don't see people shooting or stabbing other people because of difficulties involved in getting alcohol. You did back in the prohibition era.

Legalizing drugs won't stop all of the problems they create, and there is the question of where you stop (i.e. if you think marijuana should be legal, what about cocaine or amphetamines?), but it would reduce drug-related gun violence.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:24 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Drugs..... I blame most of the problem on the huge number of junkies.
Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Drugs and a huge problem and the cycle has gone on long enough that people just have created more junkies.

I love it when I hear some hippy say drugs are a victimless crime. Tell that the guy robbed by junkie or killed in a drug deal.

A drug is no more the cause of a crime than a gun is. The person wielding it (the drug or the gun) is the problem.
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ROSWELL41
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
If they were legal, the drug deal would be no different than buying a beer. And the drugs are not causing the problem. The illegality is causing the problem.

People being out of their minds is the problem. The legalization of drugs would only create more people walking and driving around in impaired states of mind. Those people, like drunks, are more likely to commit crimes and in general are a drain on society. They often can't or don't work and drain precious medical resources. If anything, we need harsher treatment of drug dealers and smugglers. Perhaps we could take a page from Middle Eastern or Asian countries in that regard.
 
Geezer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:02 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
After reading all the threads on gun ownership in the US, and the endless discussion about the "constitution" with the right to bare arms, it certainly appears that things are only going from bad to worse.

Dear Mr. Commodore;

I notice you have the word "constitution" in quotation marks; I sincerely hope you mean no disrespect towards our Constitution ?
Also I might point out, animals "bare" their teeth and people "bare" their "butts" (occasionally), but they "bear their arms".

As for things going from "bad to worse", I believe you may have that "backwards"! I have good reason to believe that if you watch carefully, you will likely see things start going from "terrible" to "much better" (in the very near future)

One thing that has always perplexed me.............it seems that many people in other countries are in strong disagreement with some of our laws; the thing that I have such difficulty understanding is, if everyone thinks the U.S. is such a terrible place to live, what with our obvious high crime rate and all, I simply don't understand why so many hundreds of thousands of people from all of these wonderful countries keep sneaking into OUR country illegally each year ?

In case you were wondering why we have such a high crime rate, that's very easy to explain ! We have an AWFULL lot of criminals ! And as I'm sure you are aware, criminals DO commit an awful lot of crimes ! As a matter of fact, I would be willing to wager, they commit 100% of all the crimes in the U.S !

If you'd like, (and if you're wondering WHY we have so many criminals, I would be most happy to point out a few dozen excellent books which explain it quite well. ) ( Please let me know )

Rgds;

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:51 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
If you get rid of the drugs the junkies go away and a lot of our problems will go away.

Drugs will never go away, it's failed legalisation of drugs that's the problem.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
If they were legal, the drug deal would be no different than buying a beer. And the drugs are not causing the problem. The illegality is causing the problem.

completely agree, make drugs legal, tax it, make them cheap, rather like prostitution, make drugs easy to get and safe to use then the criminal element won't be able to control distribution.
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:59 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):

completely agree, make drugs legal, tax it, make them cheap, rather like prostitution, make drugs easy to get and safe to use then the criminal element won't be able to control distribution.

I don't think most drugs will ever be 'safe to use'. Alcohol, which most of us enjoy regularly, can become dangerous quickly. People can't even use many prescription drugs responsibly. I agree that legalization may start to reduce criminal enterprises involved in the sale and distribution of drugs. I contend that that is only a symptom of the greater problem. The problem with legalization of drugs is that more people will be high or stoned and that has a real effect on our economy and scarce governmental resources. It also does nothing for the battered wife or child, person killed by an impaired driver or citizenry paying for a junkie to sit home and collect welfare. As evidenced by senseless crimes you see on the news, we need less people leaving touch with the realities of life, not more.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:17 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2):

This wasn't a mass shooting. It was a constable serving an eviction notice - and the person being served the warrant reacted by shooting the officer. Afterwards, the shooter and other police officers exchanged a lot of shots, resulting in the death of one bystander and injuries to at least one other civilian and a couple police officers.

Had something in Germany a few months ago. A guy with a hunting licence (which he shouldn´t have had at this time anymore, the authorities were sleeping) and therefore guns, opened fire on a bailiff´s party who came to evict him and his girlfriend from their house for not paying the mortgage. The bailiff, a locksmith and somwe other workers got killed. This guy simply wanted to stick it to the "man" and blamed everybody else for losing their home.

Unfortunately I have to say that acts like the lunatic in the cinema attract a lot of copycats, especially if the culprit is seen to have died a "glorious" death. After the cColumbine shooting there were a few incidents the world over, where suicidical teenagers wanted to copy the event and get their famous 15 minutes on the news. Weapons used were not only guns (where the teenagers or early twenties guys (and some girls) could get them, but anything ranging from knives to homebuilt bombs).

Jan
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Geezer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 11):
I'm with the "if guns kill people, then pencils fail tests and spoons make you fat" crowd.

Futureuapilot...........thanks for reading my thread ! (But spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat, not "you" )

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
A drug is no more the cause of a crime than a gun is. The person wielding it (the drug or the gun) is the problem.

Your statement is correct, but it doesn't answer the REAL question..............WHY do we have so damned many knife-weilding,
drunken, doped up, irresponsible, lazy, no good people in our country in the first place ? That's the real question; and like all questions, there's an answer; Obviously, no one is going to put an end to something that has been getting worse and worse for the past 67 years, overnight;

Let me put it this way; I was 13 years old when WW 2 ended; "things" weren't like they are now in 1945; but they DID start going down hill soon after that...........and they have continued to go further and further down hill ever since; and it's certainly no mystery WHY all of this has happened, and is STILL happening; in the 40's and early 50's, most people had never even heard of "pot", or "coke"; there have always been heroin addicts around, but the "supply" was rather minuscule, and you only saw it in big cities; Something else that was much different back then............illegitimacy was about 10% of what it is now;

Ask yourself this question; Let's say you live in a city where 90% of kids live in single parent households; and let's say, 60% of those single mothers is a crack-addict, or an alcoholic, has no job, no outlook for ever getting a job, and is just an all around piss poor parent ! Here's the question............do you suppose the likelihood of children growing up under those circumstances is likely to produce a bumper crop of first rate, gainfully employed "citizens ?.....) IF they "grow up"......( because many of them die long before they even reach voting age ! Oh. and the ones that DO reach voting age.........who do suppose they will vote for ? That's easy to answer..........who ever GIVES them the MOST !

Do you really think anyone who has had free this, free that all their life is suddenly going to run out and look for a job loading 100 lb sacks of cement on flat bed trucks all day, when they can sit on their ass, collect, collect, and just keep on getting "free stuff" ?

Hey Falstaff.........ever see anything like I'm talking about in the motor city ! Guess what........ever hear of "Chicago" ? It's the next Detroit ! And it's well on it's way right now !

I think someone mention they have 680 (or so ) murders per year in the U.K. ? Chicage has that many on some weekends !

Now.........I'm getting tired of typing, so I'll sit back while everyone tells us why it's "all George Bush's fault"

You know, there are REASONS for everything; if you drop a basket ball on a hill, which way is it going to roll ? (for anyone saying "up", you just flunked out !)

Drugs.......everyone thinks drugs is the big problem; look a little deeper..........drugs is just the inevitable "effect"! Same with "booze".........the deeper question is........why do so many people insist on doing drugs, and drinking themselves to death ?

What's the point really, of even discussing all of these problems if no one is willing to hear the answer ?

I'm sure you may think I'm going to say it's all Obama fault; put it like this........he hasn't made it get any better; but the main problems started before he was even born ! So we can't blame everything of him.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 14):
People being out of their minds is the problem. The legalization of drugs would only create more people walking and driving around in impaired states of mind. Those people, like drunks, are more likely to commit crimes and in general are a drain on society. They often can't or don't work and drain precious medical resources. If anything, we need harsher treatment of drug dealers and smugglers. Perhaps we could take a page from Middle Eastern or Asian countries in that regard.

The above reply comes closer to explaining the problem than any yet..............

I gotta go to bed now.........

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 19):
in the 40's and early 50's, most people had never even heard of "pot", or "coke"; there have always been heroin addicts around, but the "supply" was rather minuscule, and you only saw it in big cities; Something else that was much different back then............illegitimacy was about 10% of what it is now;

Actually pot and opiates were used long before (there exists a famous cartoon series from the 1830s by a German artist named Wilhelm Busch about two boys trying granddad´s pipe and from the halucinations they are getting the content of the pipe definitely wasn´t tobacco). Heroin was sold in the late 19th century as cough drug made by Bayer. Cocaine was an ingredient of the original Coke recepy. And I know American songs from the very early 20th century describing a cocaine habit.
Pot (and harder drugs) were quite common among jazz musicians from the 1920s on (Billie Holiday and Charlie "Bird" Parker died of drug abuse, Mezz Mezzrow spent some time in prison during the late 1940s for using and selling pot, joints were known as "reefers" back then).
I think, like the American prohibition of the 1920s made the Italian Mafia strong, the puritan American anti-durg policies from the 1950s on made new gangs powerful and rich.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:18 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
When the government comes to take my guns there will be dead government agents at my doors. They will have to kill me to get them. I feel that strongly about it and so do millions of other people.

So you are totally safe with your guns but you are willing to shoot government workers because you disagree with them.

DING DING DING! PROBLEM RIGHT HERE!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Do you expect cartels to be showing up to the police station turning in their guns when the anti-gun law passes? Or are they going to use their rather considerable resources to ensure that they remain armed to the teeth no matter what the law says?

Would that be the Duane reade Cartel? I think you misunderstand.

Fred
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:37 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
Had something in Germany a few months ago. A guy with a hunting licence (which he shouldn´t have had at this time anymore, the authorities were sleeping) and therefore guns, opened fire on a bailiff´s party who came to evict him and his girlfriend from their house for not paying the mortgage. The bailiff, a locksmith and somwe other workers got killed. This guy simply wanted to stick it to the "man" and blamed everybody else for losing their home.

He killed the new buyer of the house as well.
The killer had his Germsn hunting licence revoked and had to get rid of the guns he had under the German licence, but nobody knew that he also had a hunting licence in a neighbouring country (IIRC Belgium) and had guns there as well. So he simply brought those guns across the border (where they would now be illegal in Germany).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ajd1992
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:14 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I love it when I hear some hippy say drugs are a victimless crime. Tell that the guy robbed by junkie or killed in a drug deal.
Taking drugs only harms the person who takes them. Nobody makes anybody go and shoot and kill a guy for drugs. Nobody forces them to rob people for their habit - it's their own doing and while unfortunately it ends up making victims out of it, the physical act of smoking a joint or injecting yourself is a crime that only harms yourself.
 
JJJ
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:14 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
So he simply brought those guns across the border (where they would now be illegal in Germany).

Which is part of the reason gun control will never work in the US unless it's a federal effort geared for long-term results.

It's also part of the reason gun control doesn't work in Mexico, because guns are cheap and readily available across the border.

Regulating a legal market when there's an ample and cheap black market will never work.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:54 am

I´ve read that there are about a million registered and legal firearms in private hands in Germany (with a population of 60 million). But there are estimates that there are another 3 million more illegal weapons around, and this includes weapons, which would be impossible to own as a civilian, like fully automatic guns or weapons like grenade launchers or hand grenades. Where pimps would have pitbull dogs to show off in the red light districts, the status symbol of choice is now an AK-47 (readily available from various former Warsaw pact country mafias, including former East germany, or from former Yugoslavia or Albania, where government armouries were looted during civil wars and uprisings).

A few years ago German police gave up it´s policy of "citizen in uniform" to act as little provocatived as possible, with the gun holster being covered by a jacket after several police officers were shot during routine traffic stops by gangsters (ordinary criminals, no terrorist background). Criminals have increasingly become more violent and it is easier (and cheaper) to get an illegal firearms on the black market (if you are willing to risk getting caught with it and facing a prison sentence for possession of an illegal firearm) than go through the hassle and red tape to get a legal firearm.
Now the policy is that one cop does the talking and checking e.g. the driving licence, while the other cop covers with his hand on his sidearm. During bigger police actions there will be cops around providing security with submachine guns (Heckler & Koch MP-5 or MP-7) or assault rifles (G-36).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PPVRA
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 11):
Yeah, because alcohol NEVER causes any problems. Legalizing drugs won't stop the problems they create. At least we could probably benefit from taxing them but it won't solve a thing.


Yeah, because keeping drugs illegal NEVER causes any problems. As we know, alcohol causes much more crime - especially murder - than drugs because it is legal. When alcohol was illegal, there were almost no murders related to alcohol and alcohol trafficking.

 
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
something
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:36 pm

43% of Americans believe that global warming is an intricate system of lies. 70% of adult Americans believe in ghosts. 41% of Americans reject the theory of evolution. 32% of Americans believe the world is less than 10 000 years old.

And now you expect these same people to understand the correlation between the prevalence of guns and gun related crime and accidents?
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 17):
I don't think most drugs will ever be 'safe to use'.

If the drugs are manufactured by reputable pharmaceutical companies they will be safer than the crap cooked up in the jungle, then cut with god only knows what, or cooked up in someones basement. One of the main reasons people OD is because the quality is poor and more often than not they have no idea what they are taking; make it legal, make it cheap, control the supply and distribution and I bet the majority of problems caused by drugs will simply disappear.
 
windy95
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Only if there were less degenerates who were armed. I have 40 guns and between my friends and I we probably have well over 200. None of us feels the need to shoot, rob, steal, etc. So it isn't the gun it is the worthless derelict that holds it.

Correct

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
So you DO support stricter gun regulation?

The ones on the books already do not work. What would more do?

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 11):
Yeah, because alcohol NEVER causes any problems.

Yes more legal Alcohol and drug users running around the streets is what is required.

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):

You don't see people shooting or stabbing other people because of difficulties involved in getting alcohol

But plenty of that because they are drunk from the alcohol.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 14):
People being out of their minds is the problem. The legalization of drugs would only create more people walking and driving around in impaired states of mind.

Correct

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 24):
Taking drugs only harms the person who takes them.

Tell that to the guy in Miami who had his faced chewed off by someone high on drugs. Tell that to the mom or dad when there kid OD's or crash's and dies because of the drug's.

Quoting something (Reply 28):
43% of Americans believe that global warming is an intricate system of lies

Because it is.
 
wingman
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:26 pm

It' such a daft debate, kind of like balancing the budget. People are the same everywhere. The Chinese and Japanese and Spanish are just as bat shit crazy as Americans. They're all stressed out, many drink excessively, a good portion partake in illegal drugs, and they all play insanely violent video games or watch insanely violent TV shows.

There's only one difference between the US and all other nations in the Industrialized world, and that's the lack of gun control. Many of you have pointed out that Norway and Switzerland have or are close to having greater per capita gun ownership than the US, but even with last year's massacre in Norway, we still exceed gun deaths of all other peer nations combined by a factor of two.

Until people are willing to live with some measure of ownership and distribution control the US will always lead in gun deaths per year and it the differentiator will never be people, it will be the guns. There's not a sane, reasonably intelligent person anywhere in this world that can successfully argue against this statement. There is no scientific evidence to back up any other position.

You can't be against gun control and then complain about mass murder. It'd be like Superfly complaining about lead in the air.
 
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
3 mass shootings in 1 month and yet I bet, because of the up coming elections, US politician's will remain mute, on any discussions/debate regarding gun control. Perhaps this is because they don't want to upset the apple cart (NRA)

Lets not blame the gun, but the people carrying the gun.

You can't control guns simply based off the shootings, but we can control who has access to guns. This sounds strongly against my libertarian beliefs but look at it this way: If a psycho idiot gets a hold of a gun, what's gonna happen?

But on the other hand if people who are enthusiasts, like myself, or FPS Russia, get a hold of a gun, what's going to happen? Nothing serious. Maybe if there's a mechanical problem we may have a problem but cars have issues too! If my car has an issue and runs over 10 people standing on the sidewalk, was it my fault? Nope! Should we ban cars? Heck no!

What about a deranged person who runs over those 10 people? He can blame his car all he wants but the psychiatrist would say he's deranged and needs to be locked away forever.


And thus, I will no longer reply to political threads until some months after the election.
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windy95
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
What about a deranged person who runs over those 10 people? He can blame his car all he wants but the psychiatrist would say he's deranged and needs to be locked away forever.

How many drunk driving death's do we have every year? No one ban's the alcohol or tries to blame GM for putting that care in the hand's of an alcoholic. How many drug users and alcohol abusers with no license still kill themselves or other people every year? But we hear nothing from the left to stop it or to take away car's from abusers or even illegal aliens. What a joke. How many illegal alien's kill legal citizens with a weapon or with a vehicle every year? But we need more illegals in this country or we should not try to get them out of the country    Wow!
 
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falstaff
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
I hope this isn't the case, but this makes it sound like you support the murder of police officers when they are posing no threat to anyone's life.

That isn't murder... When you have armed men going house to house and taking firearms that are legally owned by the citizens it is an act of war. You cannot throw away a part of the Bill of Rights. If you think I am being extreme what do you think the reaction of the people would be if the government decided that the first amendment was no longer needed? I suspect the level of violence against the government would be out of hand.

What would you do if the government started rounding up gays, jews, blacks, etc for some reason? I guess you wouldn't want to hurt any policemen, as they are not posing a threat to you, so it be would ok to stand and do nothing? Freedom isn't free and sometimes people have to die to keep it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
So you DO support stricter gun regulation?

Maybe... Not on type, but on stricter laws with straw purchase. I see straw purchases attempts a lot at gun shows and some FFL dealers aren't too worried about it while others follow the law to a T. When I see a straw purchase attempt it is almost always a man and woman and when the person is denied by the FFL dealer because they believe it is a straw purchase the screaming and finger pointing began and the straw purchaser accuses the FFL dealer of racism, when the straw purchaser is a minority (I've even seen minority FFL dealers get accused of that, by minority purchasers) and threatens to sue or go to the BBB. It is easy to spot a poorly planned straw purchase; A man and woman go to the gun show (which in Michigan is just a bunch of legal gun stores under one roof) or store. The man looks at all the guns and then tells the woman what to buy. By law she should be turned down because it is a straw purchase. There is even the more obvious one; Woman fills out all the paper work and then the man tries to pay for it on his credit card. There are plenty of straw purchases that will never go detected because the people were more organized, but stricter punishments might deter more people.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
If they were legal, the drug deal would be no different than buying a beer. And the drugs are not causing the problem. The illegality is causing the problem.

Not quite... In Michigan, and other places, people have been smoking "bath salts" and "incense" both of which were legal until a few months ago. I never saw anyone go out of their minds more than on this stuff. Sure they weren't robbing and killing to get it, but were committing crimes of horrific violence while on it.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 21):
So you are totally safe with your guns but you are willing to shoot government workers because you disagree with them.

If a time came that the federal government sent agents to collect all the guns from every legal owner of them in the USA that would be an act of war. You just can't take away the Bill of Rights because somebody doesn't like it. Once you take away one amendment you will find people will want to take more and more. Some will say; "we don't need freedom of speech or association anymore because those were outmoded ideas from centuries ago" "We can do without that freedom of religion thing too". Where do you take a stand?

Quoting wingman (Reply 31):
It'd be like Superfly complaining about lead in the air.

I don't get that.... I didn't know the fly likes lead. if you are talking about his cars they have hardened valve seats and don't use leaded fuel

[Edited 2012-08-14 08:45:55]
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vikkyvik
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 30):
But plenty of that because they are drunk from the alcohol.

There are plenty of people who don't know how to be responsible with alcohol/drugs. Same as with guns.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 30):
Tell that to the guy in Miami who had his faced chewed off by someone high on drugs. Tell that to the mom or dad when there kid OD's or crash's and dies because of the drug's.

Taking the drug (marijuana in the case of the face-chewer) likely didn't cause the guy to go chewing someone's face off. I'm sure he was pretty f*cked up in the head already.

Besides which, you are still responsible for your actions whether you're under the influence or not. You're responsible for knowing how you will act, and ensuring you don't put yourself in a position where you will do something bad.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
Maybe if there's a mechanical problem we may have a problem but cars have issues too! If my car has an issue and runs over 10 people standing on the sidewalk, was it my fault? Nope!

If you knew about the problem and didn't get it corrected, then possibly!

Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):
No one ban's the alcohol or tries to blame GM for putting that care in the hand's of an alcoholic.

It's not GM's responsibility to check all the recreational activities of its customers.
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daedaeg
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:35 pm

What happened at Texas A&M was not a mass shooting. Unfortunately people get killed by the hands of guns everyday in the U.S. and this was just one of those incidents. Had the shooting not been close to Texas A&M campus, it would not have gotten any national attention and certainly not international attention.
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falstaff
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting daedaeg (Reply 36):
Had the shooting not been close to Texas A&M campus, it would not have gotten any national attention and certainly not international attention.


and only because it is a big name school. Like I said, a guy was murdered (drug business related) in front of the University of Detroit and it wasn't even in the local newspaper.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 35):
likely didn't cause the guy to go chewing someone's face off. I'm sure he was pretty f*cked up in the head already.

The pot smokers I know only eat the entire bag of chips. How did that guy get that way to begin with? Was he always that messed up or did he have help getting there?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 35):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):Maybe if there's a mechanical problem we may have a problem but cars have issues too! If my car has an issue and runs over 10 people standing on the sidewalk, was it my fault? Nope!
If you knew about the problem and didn't get it corrected, then possibly!

Most definitely if you knew the car had a problem and you did nothing to correct it. You may not be criminally liable, but you would be on the hook for civil liability.
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casinterest
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:50 pm

I'd love for our worldy critics to explain how without law changes the violent crime index rate has dropped by over 100% in the US.

These mass reporting that go out are overhyped, but they are still exceptions to an overall decline in volent crime rates in the US.
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falstaff
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Perhaps this is because they don't want to upset the apple cart (NRA)

Keep in mind that the NRA is funded by millions of law abiding citizens, like me. People always talk about the NRA like it is some monolithic lobbyist group. Well it is a lobbyist group funded by people who want their opinions heard. I can't get my opinion heard (listened to anyway) by the government, but when millions of us pull together we do get our opinions heard.

You should see the NRA national convention; it is filled with the nicest people you'd ever want to meet from all walks of life. This past spring I was at the NRA convention in St. Louis and mom and I went to lunch near the hall. After lunch we talked to the waiter and he said he was glad the NRA was back in town because they were the best tippers of any of the conventions. I asked him who the worst tippers were and he said it was the Southern Baptist Convention. I got a big laugh out of that one.
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something
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 30):
Quoting something (Reply 28):
43% of Americans believe that global warming is an intricate system of lies

Because it is.

My point exactly.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting something (Reply 28):
43% of Americans believe that global warming is an intricate system of lies. 70% of adult Americans believe in ghosts. 41% of Americans reject the theory of evolution. 32% of Americans believe the world is less than 10 000 years old.

Sounds very damning (and it is), but people are just as dumb everywhere else. They just believe slightly different illogical things. Belief in astrology is just as high in the UK as in the US. Meanwhile there are many countries where the majority of the population believes in various conspiracy theories (about 9/11 or many other things), or in witch doctors, etc.

I don't think you can just say that America has more uneducated people than elsewhere (indeed many countries have much LOWER rates of education) or that Americans are less able to think critically than others. That's a wild generalization and totally unsupported. (Don't get me wrong, most people don't think for themselves, it is just that that is true everywhere.)

I'd say the factors are much more complicated and can't be explained away in simple soundbites. Even gun control (which I support, and I wish the second amendment had never been written, but it was so there's the rub...) is not the entire story.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 38):
I'd love for our worldy critics to explain how without law changes the violent crime index rate has dropped by over 100% in the US.

These mass reporting that go out are overhyped, but they are still exceptions to an overall decline in volent crime rates in the US.

True that.

People latch onto a few incidents and project this into hysteria about society. It's the same as when by coincidence there are three plane crashes in a month and the tabloids start screaming that that airline travel is now unsafe...blah blah. And yet, flying has gotten safer...
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
something
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:07 pm

Quoting n229nw (Reply 41):
Sounds very damning (and it is), but people are just as dumb everywhere else. They just believe slightly different illogical things. Belief in astrology is just as high in the UK as in the US. Meanwhile there are many countries where the majority of the population believes in various conspiracy theories (about 9/11 or many other things), or in witch doctors, etc.

I don't think you can just say that America has more uneducated people than elsewhere (indeed many countries have much LOWER rates of education) or that Americans are less able to think critically than others. That's a wild generalization and totally unsupported. (Don't get me wrong, most people don't think for themselves, it is just that that is true everywhere.)

I'd say the factors are much more complicated and can't be explained away in simple soundbites. Even gun control (which I support, and I wish the second amendment had never been written, but it was so there's the rub...) is not the entire story.

Oh my friend, you are of course absolutely right about that. I didn't mean to suggest that ''Americans are stupider than other nations, therefore, they do stupider things''. While there is a scientifically measureable correlation between race and intelligence - as well as time/gender/size/location etc. and intelligence - the proportions of the genetic variation of intelligence are mostly identical among all nations. In other words, every country is burdened with the same relative amount of dimwits. There is a slightly higher density of intelligent people in centers of art and commerce, but that has more to do with humangeography than nationality.

My point was much simpler than that: The United States are a heavily brainwashed country. Every nation's people are subjected to other forms and intensities of brainwash or indoctrination; intelligence and education usually supercede indoctrination and therefore, the ''academic elite'' reaches transnational consensus on most issues - the rubes will continue to believe in the fairytales other people want them to believe for their own personal gain.

Now, if the American public can be indoctrinated into believing something so blatantly false, how can one expect them to take a scientific, distinguished approach to ''gun control''? If believing the world is less than 10 000 years old sounds like a cogent theory to you, then so will ''guns protect the good people'' and ''rich people are job creators''.

There are people who look at the facts and based on those form an opinion - and there are people who have an opinion and then try to find arguments that'd support their opinion.

America's ''gun problem'' can only be solved by two means: 1.) Take the private money out of the media, so that facts and not the agenda of the financees is being reported. 2.) Take the money out of politics to weaken the influence of interest groups. As neither is going to happen, all of these discussions may just as well be put to a rest. Incidentally, that is the exact reason why other countries seem ''smarter'' in many ways. Idiot Germans, or French, or Italians would buy just as many guns if someone who happens to make money off gun sales had been telling them to ever since - but that just doesn't happen. People are confronted with facts only and therefore, develop a different attitude towards it.
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futureualpilot
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):

Did I say anything about keeping them illegal? I really don't care what we do with them, legal or otherwise if you're dumb enough to harm your body with half the drugs available out there, you deserve whatever harm is coming to you. But that is beside the point of this thread.
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DocLightning
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:37 pm

So, from the shooter's facebook page:

Quote:
A Facebook page belonging to Caffall features several photos of assault rifles, including a Czech-made version of the AK-47. On the page, Caffall identified himself as divorced, with “Christian” religious beliefs. He lists a series of snipers, including Carlos Hathcock and Vasily Zaytsev, as "inspirational people."

“I am pulling a cross between Forrest Gump and Jack Kerouac (without the drugs),” Caffall wrote on the site. “I'm on the road, permanently.”

Caffall commented on Facebook about several recent gun purchases, including a vintage Russian rifle. “I just got a new toy,” he wrote in May 2011. “I’ll be at the gun range as much as I can.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...l-texas-am-shooting_n_1774282.html

And:

Quote:
The page also includes a quote saying, "We are all capable of redemption, if we are willing to change," plus another he attributes to George Orwell stating, "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...l-texas-am-shooting_n_1774282.html

Then I read things like this:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
When the government comes to take my guns there will be dead government agents at my doors. They will have to kill me to get them. I feel that strongly about it and so do millions of other people.

And I wonder, falstaff, if maybe the government DOES need to come and take your 40 guns.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 34):
That isn't murder... When you have armed men going house to house and taking firearms that are legally owned by the citizens it is an act of war.

No, it really isn't. And I really hope I don't live anywhere near you.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting something (Reply 28):
And now you expect these same people to understand the correlation between the prevalence of guns and gun related crime and accidents?

You effectively call them stupid, then you make a stupid mistake yourself.

Nobody is saying there isn't a correlation between the prevelance of guns and gun-related crimes and accidents. To claim otherwise is stupid. The argument is there is no correlation between the prevalnce of guns and murders in general.

Otherwise, I can simply sayt he following: I wonder what the rate of murders per gun in the UK is. I bet it is a LOT higher than in the US!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
And I wonder, falstaff, if maybe the government DOES need to come and take your 40 guns.

So you do want rough men to do violence on your behalf?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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treebeard787
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 34):
If a time came that the federal government sent agents to collect all the guns from every legal owner of them in the USA that would be an act of war. You just can't take away the Bill of Rights because somebody doesn't like it. Once you take away one amendment you will find people will want to take more and more. Some will say; "we don't need freedom of speech or association anymore because those were outmoded ideas from centuries ago" "We can do without that freedom of religion thing too". Where do you take a stand?

I have to say I agree with you on this point, if they start taking away our rights to legally own firearms or our rights to free speech, where does it end? It's a slippery slope to be on.

The way I see it, The government taking away our rights to safely and legally own a firearm just puts guns in the hands of criminals and takes away our ability to protect our selves and gives all the power to the evil doers out there. If an evil person wants to harm you or someone else, restricting gun ownership to the law abiding people will do nothing, if that person wants to harm you they will find ways to obtain a firearm or they will find another weapon to use, simple as that.
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falstaff
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting something (Reply 42):
the ''academic elite'' reaches transnational consensus on most issues

"Academic Elite"??? what does that really mean? People in what fields of academia? I have several friends with Doctoral degrees, two in chemistry, one in engineering, one academic administration. All off them have very different political points of view. I would call all of them "tops in their fields", but they couldn't come up with a consensus on anything political. What makes the automotive technology professor I had with two doctoral degrees (who was a good ole' boy redneck) better than the hippy literature professor? I learned a hell of a lot more in the auto tech program than in the useless literature class. I am rather well educated and lean fairly far to the right on most issues (I don't care about abortion and I have no problem with gays). Just because when I travel I don't hang around in coffee shops and talk about how rotten the USA is doesn't make me unintelligent.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
And I wonder, falstaff, if maybe the government DOES need to come and take your 40 guns.

You always talk about the people out there that want to kill gays or not allow them equal rights. So I guess your belief that gays deserve equal rights is more important than my right to own firearms. So we as a society can have the right to marry a person of the same sex, but not to own a gun. So I guess only some of our rights are important to you. I would stand up for your rights, but you could care less about mine.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 45):
Otherwise, I can simply sayt he following: I wonder what the rate of murders per gun in the UK is. I bet it is a LOT higher than in the US!

I wonder how many of those guns that kill people in the UK were even purchased legally and how many were smuggled into the country by criminals.

import an full Auto AK-47 into the USA, I have never even seen one for sale. They would be legal if they were here before 1968 with documentation, which would put their price in the $30,000 or more range. So one of two things are happening; either people are converting them back to full auto (which you would need a different trigger group to do, but that isn't that hard to make if you are a skilled machinist ) or the guns are coming into this country illegally to begin with. I had a student arrested about 10 years ago who had some sort of full auto shot gun, I forget what it was called. That gun was never legal for sale in the USA so it got to this country illegally.

Not too long ago I saw a photo of some guns seized by Mexican authorities and claimed to be purchased in the USA. In the photo was a M2 50 caliber machine gun. That gun isn't legal in the USA so there was no way it was purchased from a gun store in the USA. Legal guns are expensive and I am sure that drug cartels from around the world are not buying most of their guns one at a time from gun shops in the USA. If they can operate large aircraft and bring drugs in from all over I don't think it is a stretch to bring in guns from other places too. Why buy a semi auto AK-47 for $500 legally, when you can buy a full auto one from Africa, with no paper trail, for less than $100.

Quoting something (Reply 42):
that is the exact reason why other countries seem ''smarter'' in many ways. Idiot Germans, or French, or Italians would buy just as many guns if someone who happens to make money off gun sales had been telling them to ever since - but that just doesn't happen.

Don't think their aren't gun hidden in those places. The government didn't get them all. I have spent a lot of time in North Yorkshire's pubs from conversations I have had there are a lot of guns floating around your country. The people that own them aren't the criminal element so not much happens, but people don't like it when the government wants to take your private property. There are plenty of guns in Germany too. I am sure there are lots of handguns left over from WWII sitting around that people won't give up. I was offered a couple two years ago, one of which I already owned and I didn't want to get the owner in trouble if I was asked questions when I would import them to the USA. I know there are a lot of handguns that went "missing" when the DDR fell because I have seen a few with my own eyes that were "lost" and never turned into authorities.
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DocLightning
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 48):
You always talk about the people out there that want to kill gays or not allow them equal rights. So I guess your belief that gays deserve equal rights is more important than my right to own firearms. So we as a society can have the right to marry a person of the same sex, but not to own a gun.

Bingo. You can kill me with a gun. I can't kill you with my marriage. Your 40 guns are a threat to my safety if you have a psychotic break. And given that you're already posting on a public message board about killing federal agents, I think I have a valid concern.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
So you do want rough men to do violence on your behalf?

It is sometimes necessary for a peaceful society to violently restrain a violent man. A man with 40 lethal weapons talking about killing federal agents might just be such a man.

[Edited 2012-08-14 15:21:46]
-Doc Lightning-

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treebeard787
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:32 pm

@DocLightning...Somebody could kill you or others with a steak knife too...does that mean we need to ban those too? Just because somebody owns a firearm doesn't automatically mean they want to kill somebody.
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