bueb0g
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Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:25 am

Not sure how to feel about this... Assange, wanted for questioning in Sweden over rape allegations has been granted asylum in Ecuador after living in the embassy in London for 2 months. The UK has made Ecuador aware of a law that would allow it to go in and arrest Assange anyway, essentially by closing the embassy so it becomes British land and entering the premises. The justification for this is the fact that he's broken his bail, and is due for extradition to Sweden.

While I'm "in favor" of Wikileaks, or at least what they're trying to do, I have serious problems with Assange's conduct. His argument simply does not hold up. He doesn't want to be extradited to Sweden in case he is then extradited to the US to face trial there, over Wikileaks, and possibly receive the death penalty.

However, extradition between the UK and the US is much easier than between Sweden and the US, and Assange has been on house arrest in the UK for 2 years - if the USA wanted him so badly, why not charge him during that time? He could have been on trial in the US already if that's what they wanted. I've heard the argument made that the US is trying to keep this secret and charging him would "blow their cover", but their "cover" would be blown regardless of *when* they charged him, whether now or when he's in Sweden.

Plus, the death penalty is illegal under EU law, and it's also illegal for any EU member state to extradite someone for a crime which they face the death penalty for, so Assange's worry of being executed is baseless. If the US did try to extradite him from Sweden, the European Court of Human Rights would have to be involved.

Which begs the question - what is he scared of? He's either really, really paranoid (and stupid) or he knows he's guilty of the crime he's wanted for in Sweden.

Also, asylum in Ecuador? Really? That free-press loving country?

What does everyone else think of this?
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ajd1992
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:30 am

I think the UK should go in, arrest him and do what needs doing. The embassy is not Ecuadorian - it's still on British soil, so they can stall all they like but the UK Police can still arrest him.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:33 am

The minute he steps out of the Ecuadorian Embassy he will be subject to arrest and extradition. I'm not sure how long the Ecuadorians want him to live in their embassy.


Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
The embassy is not Ecuadorian

Yes it is according to international law going into the embassy is the same as going to Quito. It's sovereign territory.

[Edited 2012-08-18 02:47:40 by SA7700]
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
ajd1992
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:46 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Yes it is according to international law going into the embassy is the same as going to Quito. It's sovereign territory.

They are not sovereign territory at all. They are still under the jurisdiction of the host country but are given privileges like diplomatic immunity from most local laws.

If they were Sovereign territory then the UK Police would not be able to arrest him as they have no powers in a foreign country. They can arrest him as it's still classed as UK territory.

[Edited 2012-08-17 04:47:01]
 
QFA380
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:47 am

I'd say Assange knows that in ultra feminist Sweden he will be guaranteed conviction and is using the remote possibility of extradition to avoid facing the courts for some bogus charges by women who were upset he slept with them both.

I think it is incredibly hypocritical of the UK to even suggest they'd expel diplomats for something this petty when they got all up in arms over their Iranian embassy citing treaties the Iranians had broken by not protecting their embassy. The UK Foreign Service is a highly respected institution and William Hague is doing them quite some harm with this rhetoric. In particular they will instantly turn much of South America heavily against them while they're locked in another diplomatic battle over the Falklands.

As for the actual asylum, it is mutually beneficial that he's granted asylum, its just whether he feels like leaving at all in the foreseeable future.

Unfortunately for Assange the Ecuadorian embassy would be difficult to get out of unlike other more compound like ones in other countries.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
If they were Sovereign territory then the UK Police would not be able to arrest him as they have no powers in a foreign country. They can arrest him as it's still classed as UK territory.

No they cannot just waltz in and arrest him and under centuries of international law, it is indeed Ecuadorian soil. The only way the UK could legally get him is if they revoke Ecuador's right to have an embassy in the UK. This is one of the most serious things two countries can do against each other short of going to war and should never be done lightly, even with one's enemies or others who's conduct you may be displeased with.

[Edited 2012-08-17 04:51:29]
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
I think the UK should go in, arrest him and do what needs doing. The embassy is not Ecuadorian - it's still on British soil, so they can stall all they like but the UK Police can still arrest him.

No, it will be a serious breach of international treaties. The Ecuadorians could even declare Mr. Assange a diplomatic messenger, hand him the documents he has to carry to Ecuador, and off he can co. Nobody has the powers to delay such a messenger.

When Tehran occupied the U.S. embassy there and held the hostages, they let "students" do the job. They knew how delicate it would be.


David
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something
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
The UK Foreign Service is a highly respected institution and William Hague is doing them quite some harm with this rhetoric. In particular they will instantly turn much of South America heavily against them while they're locked in another diplomatic battle over the Falklands.

And you think protecting him from the USA is getting them kudos on the Northern part of the American continent?

British law isn't codified and if some crafty lawyer really wanted to, he could always find a loophole special circumstance situation to circumvent EU law to extradite him to Sweden.

I must say though.. I had always held Scandinavian and Northern European countries in highest regard. Sweden has really lost all credibility with me over this.
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cmf
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
However, extradition between the UK and the US is much easier than between Sweden and the US, and Assange has been on house arrest in the UK for 2 years - if the USA wanted him so badly, why not charge him during that time? He could have been on trial in the US already if that's what they wanted. I've heard the argument made that the US is trying to keep this secret and charging him would "blow their cover", but their "cover" would be blown regardless of *when* they charged him, whether now or when he's in Sweden.

Plus, the death penalty is illegal under EU law, and it's also illegal for any EU member state to extradite someone for a crime which they face the death penalty for, so Assange's worry of being executed is baseless. If the US did try to extradite him from Sweden, the European Court of Human Rights would have to be involved.

Pretty much sums up what I find strange about it.

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
Also, asylum in Ecuador? Really? That free-press loving country?

They offered  
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
I'd say Assange knows that in ultra feminist Sweden he will be guaranteed conviction and is using the remote possibility of extradition to avoid facing the courts for some bogus charges by women who were upset he slept with them both.

How do you know they are bogus?

Quoting something (Reply 7):
I must say though.. I had always held Scandinavian and Northern European countries in highest regard. Sweden has really lost all credibility with me over this.

Why have they lost credibility for insisting to to bring him to Sweden?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
na
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
If the US did try to extradite him from Sweden, the European Court of Human Rights would have to be involved.

No EU country would allow someone to extradited to a country where the death penalty is waiting. Basically I think the death penalty is a sign of barbarism. Only in very extreme cases of immiadiate danger (large-scale terrorism or genocide) I do understand that its being enforced. Certainly not for a journalistic traitor.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Yes it is according to international law going into the embassy is the same as going to Quito. It's sovereign territory.

The UK forces have all the right to enter if acts of criminalism have to be prevented. The Ecuadorians cannot keep him in the house forever, and they cant transport him to the airport. Assange is being wanted for sexual assault. Wether this is a set-up nobody knows. But he is accused for it and has to stand trial like everyone else. Otherwise he could do it again and use the same excuses.
 
QFA380
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
How do you know they are bogus?

Assange went to an activist conference with one who had agreed to let him stay over, he slept with her and then three days later slept with the other whom he met at the conference.
They were both boasting (via SMS that is now public) that they screwed one of the most wanted men in the world but then didn't like that he'd slept with both.
They tried to get in contact with him afterwards and one hosted a party in her house for him.
They went to the police as you're well within your rights when you regret having sex in Sweden, on the condition that you're a woman. The warrant was withdrawn the day after with a Swedish prosecutor saying 'I don't think there is reason to suspect that he has committed rape'.
The women appealed and eleven days later another prosecutor reopened the case and here we are.

Any inconsistencies in there? Do most people boast about being 'raped'?

This is a crime almost nowhere else in the world, Assange was extraordinarily stupid for going there. Being cautious to the point of paranoia about things like phones and internet, he then pisses off a pair of Swedish bureaucrats by having sex with them both in the same week and they promptly seek to destroy his life with the assistance of the Swedish government. Note to all mankind, don't have sex with avowed feminists in Sweden. Swedish Roulette anyone?

Here is a letter from a former lawyer of Assange's, biased of course but even if half true would exonerate Assange.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/02/...are-making-it-up-as-they-go-along/
 
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moo
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
No they cannot just waltz in and arrest him and under centuries of international law

There is no such thing as "international law", there are treaties and there are conventions - in this case, its the Vienna Convention that describes diplomatic statuses.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
it is indeed Ecuadorian soil

No it is not. This is one of those common miss-beliefs.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
The only way the UK could legally get him is if they revoke Ecuador's right to have an embassy in the UK

That's one way, the other way is that they can temporarily revoke the embassies diplomatic status for the purposes of apprehending a criminal. This is not the same as revoking the countries right to have an embassy.


Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
The Ecuadorians could even declare Mr. Assange a diplomatic messenger, hand him the documents he has to carry to Ecuador, and off he can co. Nobody has the powers to delay such a messenger.

Nope, they can't do that as all diplomatic personnel that the embassy wishes to have diplomatic immunity status must be agreed with the British Government prior to entry into the country - Ecuador cannot simply "grant" immunity status on their own.

This is the common approach held by pretty much all countries - the guest country cannot simply send whomever they wish.


Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
When Tehran occupied the U.S. embassy there and held the hostages, they let "students" do the job. They knew how delicate it would be.

Completely different state of affairs - in this case we are talking about a country that has defined a specific set of laws which allow it entry into a guest embassy, using proper due process (a weeks notice and the ability to challenge it in court) and normal judicial approaches. In your case we are talking about an uprising in a country that had been held oppressed by a dictator put in power by the US and UK.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
Any inconsistencies in there? Do most people boast about being 'raped'?

Lots of inconsistencies are claimed - unfortunately, I havent seen any corroborating evidence from Assange supporters that back up their claims of inconsistencies.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
This is a crime almost nowhere else in the world, Assange was extraordinarily stupid for going there.

Yup, its a crime almost nowhere else in the world.

Except the UK.

And France. And Germany. And the US. And New Zealand. And Australia. And pretty much most of the western world.

This was one of those "inconsistencies" covered by the British Judges in quite some depth in their rulings - one of the things they consider in extradition requests was if the allegations made are also crimes in the UK. And the Judges found that all the allegations (not just one, at least four allegations made) would be a criminal act in the UK.


Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
Here is a letter from a former lawyer of Assange's, biased of course but even if half true would exonerate Assange.

You do realise that the legal team that that barrister was a part of in October 2010 was severely reprimanded by the British Judge in his ruling statement, as he found that they deliberately misstated positions, lied to the court and generally were incompetent...?

Court rulings in this matter:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/2849.pdf
 
ozglobal
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
If they were Sovereign territory then the UK Police would not be able to arrest him as they have no powers in a foreign country. They can arrest him as it's still classed as UK territory.

The UK might find that view very damaging for all of their embassys throughout the world, particularly in less friendly states.

The UK look, again, like a lap dog of the US over this unseemly acquiescence,

[Edited 2012-08-17 08:00:17]
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scbriml
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
If the US did try to extradite him from Sweden, the European Court of Human Rights would have to be involved.

As you pointed out, he could only be extradited to the US if they agree the death penalty would not be imposed.

If they give that agreement, then, subject to meeting the criteria of the extradition treaty between Sweden and the US, he could be extradited. The only way I see the ECHR getting involved is if Assange claimed that "imprisonment without parole" (a possible punishment in the absence of the death penalty) constituted a cruel and unusual punishment under EU law (which it well might).

Quoting something (Reply 7):
And you think protecting him from the USA is getting them kudos on the Northern part of the American continent?

Who's "protecting" him from America? Has America issued an arrest warrant and applied for extradition?

Quoting something (Reply 7):
British law isn't codified and if some crafty lawyer really wanted to, he could always find a loophole special circumstance situation to circumvent EU law to extradite him to Sweden.

No, that ship has already sailed. The legal process has been exhausted and Assange lost. That's why the police are standing outside the Ecuador embassy waiting to arrest him.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Yes it is according to international law going into the embassy is the same as going to Quito. It's sovereign territory.

No, embassies are not extraterritorial - they remain sovereign but with special privileges as defined in the Vienna Convention. See following comment.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
If they were Sovereign territory then the UK Police would not be able to arrest him as they have no powers in a foreign country. They can arrest him as it's still classed as UK territory.

No they can't - if it were as simple as you're suggesting they would have already gone in. One of the privileges granted under the Vienna Convention is that the host country may not enter the embassy without permission.

The only way the police could enter the embassy to arrest Assange is if Hague, as he's threatening, were to revoke Ecuador's diplomatic status. However, this is a very dangerous game that could undermine the whole fragile house of cards that is international diplomacy. This could easily backfire and present a serious issue to British citizens that need assistance from embassies around the World.
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:14 pm

At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

As I understand it, the country whose authorities want Mr. Assange for prosecution is Sweden; and (best I can tell) the defensive strategy as it is now is, basically, to claim that "If Julian comes out of the Ecudorian Embassy, the US will swoop in and grab him, taking him to the Great American Gulag from which he will never emerge..."

As if Sweden would remotely consider being a pawn in such a game!

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scbriml
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

Well, the American government seems to be rather keen to have a cosy chat with Mr Assange about all the secrets he's been publishing on his Wikileaks site.

Assange's claim is that if extradited from UK to Sweden, he will subsequently be extradited to the US to face spying charges, for which he could possibly face the death penalty (but see previous posts about extradition from EU and death penalty).
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
cmf
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 10):
Any inconsistencies in there?

Seems to miss several important events.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
bueb0g
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):

At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

Assange's supporters claim that the US secretly want to charge Assange with treason and endangering US troops (like with Bradley Manning), despite no evidence supporting that view... It basically comes from a few over zealous republicans (Michelle Bachman etc) who insinuated that they would like to put him on trial in the US, and for him to face the death penalty. This was of course simply political waffle to capitalise on the outrage many right-wingers felt when wikileaks released the documents, but some decided to take her and others seriously.

So basically, it doesn't seem like the US actually is related but many seem to think otherwise and Assange seems to be using this to justify avoiding turning up in Sweden for questioning.

Quoting na (Reply 9):
Basically I think the death penalty is a sign of barbarism.

I think Gandalf sufficiently sums up my feelings on the issue:

"Many that live deserve death, but some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement; even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Obviously more JRR Tolkien than Gandalf but whatever
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ozglobal
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 15):
Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

Well, the American government seems to be rather keen to have a cosy chat with Mr Assange about all the secrets he's been publishing on his Wikileaks site.

Assange's claim is that if extradited from UK to Sweden, he will subsequently be extradited to the US to face spying charges, for which he could possibly face the death penalty (but see previous posts about extradition from EU and death penalty).

Exactly. What is more, sccutler, many of your GOP figures have called for his 'death' on grounds of 'treason'    They seem to be too dense or too busy chest-beating to notice that he is an Australian citizen, not a US one, so whatever he has done, it is not 'treason', nor has whatever he has done occurred on US soil, nor has it been suggested that he has stolen any information (spying), just that he provided the platform for release of said information. The US government are having a hard time using their own law (which seems not to apply) nor international law (what charge) to pursue their insensed hunger for retribution. However, as recent precedent clearly documents, the US will set aside nicities such as the law if it gets in the way of retribution (extrordinary rendition on foreign soil, torture camps on foreign soil, etc). The clear suggestion is that the US pressured Sweden to reverse the dismissal of the assault case in order to create a path of rendition from UK to the US. The suggestion has always been that if he ends up in Sweden, the US will 'get him' and do what they like, law or no law. Time will tell.
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cmf
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 13):
If they give that agreement, then, subject to meeting the criteria of the extradition treaty between Sweden and the US

You need to add UK in this case. That is one of the "funnies."

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
At the risk of seeming dense, exactly how does the US relate to this whole kerfuffle at all?

The main reason Assange was in Sweden was because he applied to become a resident. Reportedly because of Swedens whistle blower laws. Essentially he was trying to get protection in Sweden for the US documents wikileaks released.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 17):
"Many that live deserve death, but some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement; even the very wise cannot see all ends."

  

All I can add is that those who deserve death do not deserve to have their earthly punishment shortened.
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BMI727
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 17):
Assange's supporters claim that the US secretly want to charge Assange with treason

Then Assange's supporters are idiots since America cannot charge Australians or any other foreigners with treason.

Either way I think that if it's Americans that he fears, Assange will be safer in Europe than Ecuador.
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tu204
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:20 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):

I think the UK should go in, arrest him and do what needs doing. The embassy is not Ecuadorian - it's still on British soil, so they can stall all they like but the UK Police can still arrest him.

Really? That would do two things:
1) Show that the UK and Iran are pretty much on the same level. Would you like that?
2) Create a precedent where the UK embassies in some less than friendly countries would be raided. Thats what happens when you open a can of worms.

The fact that your government OFFICIALS actually stated the same thing as you shows alot.
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mmedford
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting na (Reply 9):

No EU country would allow someone to extradited to a country where the death penalty is waiting. Basically I think the death penalty is a sign of barbarism. Only in very extreme cases of immiadiate danger (large-scale terrorism or genocide) I do understand that its being enforced. Certainly not for a journalistic traitor.

You don't rehabilitate the rabid dog, you put it down...


He posted information that could get people killed, why not kill 1; to save the herd?

[Edited 2012-08-17 09:39:02]
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moo
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 21):
1) Show that the UK and Iran are pretty much on the same level. Would you like that?

Thats hardly the situation is it - once again, a country using established domestic law that has been around for decades to allow civilian police and judiciary to enter and apprehend a fugitive is not the same as a random mob storming an embassy for political reasons.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 21):
2) Create a precedent where the UK embassies in some less than friendly countries would be raided. Thats what happens when you open a can of worms.

The British Government is not in the habit of allowing fugitives to escape local judicial proceedings through the embassies, so once again its not the same situation.
 
bueb0g
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting mmedford (Reply 22):
You don't rehabilitate the rabid dog, you put it down...


He posted information that could get people killed, why not kill 1; to save the herd?

He facilitated the publishing of information that we should already have known. Democracy relies on having an informed electorate. I'm not defending his hiding from the law - but the death penalty would be outrageous on the part of the US, not least because the US has no jurisdiction over him. Plus, as already said, the death penalty is illegal in all EU member states (and most civilised countries) and extradition to the US, were he to face the death penalty, would be illegal.

Comparing a rabid dog - an animal with a much lower intelligence than humans, with a disease that makes them crazy - to a person who has not technically done anything illegal (about wikileaks, not the sexual assault charges) is ludicrous, and undermines your argument rather than helping it.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
tu204
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
Thats hardly the situation is it - once again, a country using established domestic law that has been around for decades to allow civilian police and judiciary to enter and apprehend a fugitive is not the same as a random mob storming an embassy for political reasons.

Both show blatant disregard for the Vienna convention. One is an angry mob and the other is an official attack (based on whatever you want to call it).
I would actually say that the angry mob is the better of the two. If you can get a large enough mob, the authorities might not be able to contain it in time, however authorities going in is an official response. The country with the angry mob probably has the higher moral ground here.

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
The British Government is not in the habit of allowing fugitives to escape local judicial proceedings through the embassies, so once again its not the same situation.

Well the British Government is in the habit of harbouring fugitives (including terrorists) to escape local judicial proceedings but not through embassies, so you are right, it is not the same situation.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
bueb0g
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
Both show blatant disregard for the Vienna convention. One is an angry mob and the other is an official attack (based on whatever you want to call it).

Where do you draw the line? If Mr Assange had gone on a killing spree in London, would it be legitimate for him to then claim asylum in Ecuador and get away scott free? No. Obviously that situation is orders of magnitude more extreme but Assange broke the law - UK law - by violating the terms of his bail. He can't run from that.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
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moo
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
Both show blatant disregard for the Vienna convention.

And deliberately harbouring a fugitive doesn't show blatant disregard for the basic rule of law itself? If a legal construct can be used to circumvent true and proper legal proceedings in the host country, then it certainly can be argued that that legal construct deserves to fundamentally change.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
The country with the angry mob probably has the higher moral ground here.

I can't believe you said that. I really, truly cannot.
 
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting something (Reply 7):
I must say though.. I had always held Scandinavian and Northern European countries in highest regard. Sweden has really lost all credibility with me over this.

For wanting to question over alleged sexual assaults? As in saying he'll wear a condom then not doing so.
Sweden is a model of Liberal Democracy, to paint it as a state out to get Assange for political reasons does not hold water.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Then Assange's supporters are idiots since America cannot charge Australians or any other foreigners with treason

Quite so, shame some of the GOP nutters didn't realise that, thus handing Assange and his supporters a PR coup.

Remember, the leaks were published in several papers, in the US, UK, Germany, Spain, only after anything that would put at risk people, be they soldiers, aid workers, informers, anyone, was redacted,
Julian did not like that, he rapidly fell out with those papers, indeed, he seems to fall out with just about everyone he's ever worked with.

The leaks were embarrassing, not only for their content but that some 2 million in the US had the access to leak them if they wished. A major threat to national security? Not in the commonly understood sense.
For all that, there are no charges against him from the USA, something his cheerleaders seem unable or unwilling, to grasp.

That Assange was unconcerned about what the effects of leaking unredacted files could be, saying 'informers deserve it', meaning leaving them to the tender mercies of the Taliban, maybe not so surprising, since both seem to have issues around women.

After the shooting of WPC Fletcher from the Libyan embassy in 1984, with the knowledge that terrorism had been directed from it too, the law here was changed.
But you cannot compare that with the situation with Assange.
 
GDB
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
Both show blatant disregard for the Vienna convention. One is an angry mob and the other is an official attack (based on whatever you want to call it).
I would actually say that the angry mob is the better of the two. If you can get a large enough mob, the authorities might not be able to contain it in time, however authorities going in is an official response. The country with the angry mob probably has the higher moral ground here.

At least we are not so frightened of 3 young women, that the 'judiciary' (that's a laugh in itself), gives them 2 years hard labour, where in the civilized world with independent judiciaries and press they'd get a fine, maybe a few hours community service.
All that strutting around pretending to be some tough outdoors-man? I always suspected Vlad was overcompensating for something.
 
tu204
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 29):

You want to actually provide some proof to back up your opinion? I can for my statement.
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Acheron
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:07 pm

He is wanted for interrogation by the swedes for something that happened in Sweden(right?), yet the swedes for some reason want to extradite him to the US. What does the US has to do with the rape case?.

Quoting moo (Reply 27):
And deliberately harbouring a fugitive doesn't show blatant disregard for the basic rule of law itself? I

You mean like the few European countries that harbour former African dictators and "generals" that make Assange look like a little angel?.

Or the US who keeps a few terrorist on their soil?.

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
The British Government is not in the habit of allowing fugitives to escape local judicial proceedings through the embassies

Of course not, they just grant them asylum while they are on british soil to save themselves the hassle. Like a few chechen terrorist supporters that have a happy life in the UK.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):

I think the UK should go in, arrest him and do what needs doing. The embassy is not Ecuadorian - it's still on British soil, so they can stall all they like but the UK Police can still arrest him.

Wars have been started for less than that.

In China, if political dissident accused of murder/rape/whatnot by the Chinese government seeks asylum in an embassy and the police suddenly raided the Embassy, would those asking for a raid into the ecuadorian embassy would accept that kind of action as well?.

I doubt it.
 
Ken777
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 2):
I'm not sure how long the Ecuadorians want him to live in their embassy.

My bet is that they wish he was gone a month ago.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):

I'd say Assange knows that in ultra feminist Sweden he will be guaranteed conviction and is using the remote possibility of extradition to avoid facing the courts for some bogus charges by women who were upset he slept with them both.

IIRC, the guy's problem is that he had sex again with one of the gals and didn't use a condom as she requested. For a lot of women that might be a major deal - sufficient in Sweden to be called a crime.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
I'd say Assange knows that in ultra feminist Sweden he will be guaranteed conviction and is using the remote possibility of extradition to avoid facing the courts for some bogus charges by women who were upset he slept with them both.

"Ultra feminist Sweden"? Considering that it is only recently that women have been brought up to the "standards given men" it might be that some men don't like the situation.

Look at the percentage of women finishing law school or med school today compared to the '50s. You can even use Australia as a good example.  Wow!
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
As for the actual asylum, it is mutually beneficial that he's granted asylum, its just whether he feels like leaving at all in the foreseeable future.

He has been granted asylum. His problem is that it doesn't protect him outside the Embassy.

Quoting na (Reply 9):
No EU country would allow someone to extradited to a country where the death penalty is waiting.

The guy isn't worth all the legal efforts (and costs) related to the death penalty. If he ends up in the US at some point in the future (doubtful) then I can see an overpriced trial and a 5 to 10 year sentence.

Quoting na (Reply 9):
But he is accused for it and has to stand trial like everyone else. Otherwise he could do it again and use the same excuses.

Unfortunately the boy thinks he is special. Arrogant? Yep. Special? Nope.
 
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moo
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
He is wanted for interrogation by the swedes for something that happened in Sweden(right?)

Yes.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
yet the swedes for some reason want to extradite him to the US.

No. Sweden hasn't said anything of the sort - those accusations are, right now, baseless.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
What does the US has to do with the rape case?.

Nothing. However, they have a sealed indictment for Assange as part of the Bradley Manning situation.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
You mean like the few European countries that harbour former African dictators and "generals" that make Assange look like a little angel?.

Have any of those governments refused extradition warrants outside of the judicial system? Have any extradition warrants been requested?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
Or the US who keeps a few terrorist on their soil?.

Yup, don't like that. But that doesn't change anything in this case.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
Of course not, they just grant them asylum while they are on british soil to save themselves the hassle. Like a few chechen terrorist supporters that have a happy life in the UK.

Got any links to any of that? Any outstanding warrants for these alleged terrorist supporters?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
In China, if political dissident accused of murder/rape/whatnot by the Chinese government seeks asylum in an embassy and the police suddenly raided the Embassy, would those asking for a raid into the ecuadorian embassy would accept that kind of action as well?.

If the Chinese could show it was legal and proper under their judicial system, I wouldn't have an issue with it - the embassy operates in the country knowing full well the legal system of the host country.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
You need to add UK in this case. That is one of the "funnies."

Why? I don't believe the US has sought his extradition, but the Swedes have. The legal process has been followed and the ruling is that he can be extradited to Sweden. Once that last appeal was denied, he broke his bail conditions and ran to the Ecuador embassy.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 22):
He posted information that could get people killed, why not kill 1; to save the herd?

Often claimed, but never, to my knowledge, backed up with any supporting evidence. Your blood lust will not be satisfied in this case because he won't be extradited to the US unless the death penalty is off the table.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 26):
Assange broke the law - UK law - by violating the terms of his bail. He can't run from that.

This is undoubtedly true, but Hague has painted himself into a corner by even suggesting the the UK might withdraw (even temporarily) diplomatic status from Ecuador to facilitate the arrest of Assange.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
greasespot
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:33 pm

Sadly as coming and working in the Capital of Canada I get to deal with embassies all the time It is sovereign territory. And yes if the embassy wants to offer asylum to a murderer there is nothing we can do. They either have to revoke it and kick them out or go through extradition.

We had a case of a diplomat killed a women while drunk. All we could do was detain to prevent continuation of the offense and then turn them over to the embassy personal. We also had another one that went of a driving rampage and smashed cars at high speed. Same thing.

I mean yes in reality we could have said screw it and enter and arrest but international law stops it. Besides once we do it what is it to stop the law in other countries from doing it to our embassies. As there are a whole lot more embassies in places that are very corrupt.


Plus here all the embassy vehicles are also protected. So him getting out of the country should not be hard.(note: there is an agreement that all tickets given to the vehicles will be paid but there is nothing really to enforce it).

Even if the police were to scoop him the gov't are signatories of all the treaties surrounding diplomatic mission's and the courts would be obliged to enforce them as they are pretty black and white. Courts have ruled time and again that they cannot nullify treaties. Only Gov'ts can.

Like it or not the hands off the embassies protects our embassies.


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
mbmbos
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 33):
No. Sweden hasn't said anything of the sort - those accusations are, right now, baseless.

1. Sweden has not actually charged Assange saying only that they wanted to question him.
2. Assange made several overtures to be questioned by Swedish authorities while in the U.K. and all were refused.
3. Sweden took the unprecedented step of extraditing him to their country without having launched formal charges.
4. Assange offered to return, voluntarily, to Sweden if the government agreed not to allow him to be extradited to the U.S.

All of these points indicate the United States is involved and wants to get their paws on Assange.

Quoting moo (Reply 33):
Have any of those governments refused extradition warrants outside of the judicial system? Have any extradition warrants been requested?

Can you say Pinochet?
 
mham001
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 24):
but the death penalty would be outrageous on the part of the US,

I have searched, but I have not found any information on what he could be charged that would draw the death penalty. To anybody who has claimed such, what are the exact circumstances that would allow this?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
yet the swedes for some reason want to extradite him to the US.

Do you have a source for that as well?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
They are not sovereign territory at all.

You are incorrect. An embassy and its grounds is foreign soil by international law and agreement between two countries with formal relations. If the UK were to invade the Ecuadorian embassy, it could be considered an act of war. In order to reclaim that ground as British soil, the UK would have to terminate formal diplomatic relations with Ecuador, which is an awfully extreme move to make over a single individual.

A decision to invade a foreign embassy would have enormous and far-reaching consequences for the UK. Showing that sort of lack of respect for international law would certainly terminate formal relations between the UK and Ecuador. All UK nationals in Ecuador would probably be expelled from the country. That would be bad enough given that the Galapagos Islands are a major center for scientific research and British teams would be all but locked out (not to mention tourism). But far beyond that, other countries observing this behavior might also choose to sever formal relations with the UK, even if these countries have no intention of granting asylum to a "fugitive" from the UK. This could have enormous economic and political consequences for the UK far into the future. Mr. Assange may be high-profile, but I assure you he is not that important.

This is precisely why the US did not invade the Vatican embassy when they were sheltering Manuel Noriega in Panama.

But let us not forget that LAN Ecuador does not serve LHR (or any London airport) directly. In order to get to LHR, Mr. Assange will have to pass through Great Britain, board either a British carrier or a third-party carrier (TAM maybe?), and pass through that country's airport before arriving in Quito. There are ample opportunities to use quasi-legal methods to detain or delay Mr. Assange.

I am not sure, however, if consulates enjoy the same protection. Does anyone know?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
The country with the angry mob probably has the higher moral ground here.

Moral? I disagree. Legal? Sure. But let's please not make the mistake of confusing morality with legality. They are often two very different (even opposite) concepts.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 26):
Where do you draw the line? If Mr Assange had gone on a killing spree in London, would it be legitimate for him to then claim asylum in Ecuador and get away scott free? No. Obviously that situation is orders of magnitude more extreme but Assange broke the law - UK law - by violating the terms of his bail. He can't run from that.

If Ecuador were foolish enough to offer asylum to such a fugitive, then it would be legitimate. You might say: "but it's murder!" Yes, it's murder, but what if it were in a country where the charges were being leveled that he had used, say, voodoo magic to kill people? Would you agree with asylum in such a case?

No, it would be up to Ecuador in that situation to decide to deny his request for asylum. If Ecuador were in the habit of regularly granting asylum to mass-murderers I would expect that the accumulated diplomatic incidents would lead to a termination of diplomatic relations between the UK and Ecuador...and that other countries watching the proceedings would probably side with the UK.

As it stands, Mr. Assange stands accused of one very dubious charge. He is not, AFAIK, accused of anything other than a very flimsy case of sexual assault. I am not defending him so please do not accuse me of being pro-terrorist or anti-America (which would be a stretch, anyway); I am simply stating the legal facts as far as I understand them.
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Aesma
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
Which begs the question - what is he scared of? He's either really, really paranoid (and stupid) or he knows he's guilty of the crime he's wanted for in Sweden.

He's not stupid. He's paranoid yes, for good reasons, and after years being paranoid I don't doubt you can become too paranoid.

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
The British Government is not in the habit of allowing fugitives to escape local judicial proceedings through the embassies, so once again its not the same situation.

What about spies ? We rarely hear of it of course (but sometimes do, like with the US one in Pakistan) ?

Quoting moo (Reply 27):
And deliberately harbouring a fugitive doesn't show blatant disregard for the basic rule of law itself? If a legal construct can be used to circumvent true and proper legal proceedings in the host country, then it certainly can be argued that that legal construct deserves to fundamentally change.

Usually those fugitives are harbored either because the country considers the charges to be bogus, or considers that the persons can't be guaranteed a fair trial and/or punishment. These reasons are often the cause of the non existence of extradition agreements in the first place. For example France harbored Italian terrorists for a long time.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 30):
You want to actually provide some proof to back up your opinion? I can for my statement.

The Pussy Riot were videotaped when they committed their "crime", everybody saw it. A free country wouldn't put people in jail over that. And the intervention of the Orthodox church in the matter is breathtaking.
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Dano1977
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:43 pm

The Ecuadorians cannot unilaterally give him diplomatic status:

Were he to be given a diplomatic passport, that would not alter the situation: immunity from arrest is only conferred on diplomats accredited to the Court of St James's by the Foreign Office.

Any attempt by the Ecuadoreans to have him accredited would be rebuffed by UK authorities.


I would bet my last £1, that either the security services or special forces are watching the embassy like hawks, waiting for him to leave. As soon as steps out of the diplomatic car... he's fair game!

I would also wager, that GCHQ is closely monitoring SIGINT also between South America and the UK.
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Gingersnap
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:43 pm

I think Assange is right to fear extradition to the US. The way the Swedish have acted throughout this suggests that they simply could act as nothing more than a stepping stone to a cell near Bradley Manning.

Swedish authorities were offered access into the Embassy to question Assange about the allegations (he hasn't even been charged yet). They refused this.

They were then offered a deal that Assange would return to Sweden under the guarantee he wouldn't be extradited to the USA. The Swedish also refused to agree to that one (which is telling in itself).

They want to extradite someone for something he is only accused of rather than being charged of. Sure he has an arrest warrant in the UK for skipping bail, but can you blame him when the obvious result of arrest would be extradition.

The fact that the Swedish authorities refused to guarantee that he wouldn't be extradited to the USA, just tells too much about what the real motive behind all this are. Also I'm disappointed with the actions of the Home Office in the UK with their arrogant reminder to the Ecuadorian Embassy about what they have the power to do. They couldn't be bothered with Abu Qatada living off the taxpayer, and it took years to realistically get him anywhere near extradition.
Yet they want to storm an Embassy to extradite a man who is only accused of something which is most likely false? Says enough to me. They don't pay this much attention to KNOWN rapists and paedophiles in this country...so why are they being so forceful with Assange? Yeah because the US are telling them what to do again.

[Edited 2012-08-17 13:45:21]
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moo
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 36):
1. Sweden has not actually charged Assange saying only that they wanted to question him.

Swedish law says that they cannot charge someone in absentia.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 36):
2. Assange made several overtures to be questioned by Swedish authorities while in the U.K. and all were refused.

How does that help Sweden charge him?

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 36):
3. Sweden took the unprecedented step of extraditing him to their country without having launched formal charges.

Rubbish - "wanted for questioning" and extraditions for questioning are quite common.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 36):
4. Assange offered to return, voluntarily, to Sweden if the government agreed not to allow him to be extradited to the U.S.

Why should Sweden cut any sort of deal with a wanted person?

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 36):
All of these points indicate the United States is involved and wants to get their paws on Assange.

Again, rubbish - but its all been well spun by Assange supporters.

If the US wanted him, it would be easier to extradite him directly from the UK than it would from Sweden after his extradition from the UK.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 36):
Can you say Pinochet?

Yes I can.

I can also cite the 2 year long legal case that surrounded Pinochets visit to the UK, including long court sessions in which many of the charges against him were thrown out, detailed arguments and a *heck* of a lot of media interest.

And I can also cite that the final decision was taken by a Foreign Secretary of a Government I did not and still do not support - and that final decision is also something I cannot support.

But that still has nothing to do with this case.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
I am not sure, however, if consulates enjoy the same protection. Does anyone know?
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Consular_Relations

Article 31 says that consular premises shall not be entered by forces of the host state, except in emergencies (e.g. fire) where the agreement of the consul can be assumed.

In comparison to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, the apartments of the diplomats enjoy the same protection as the embassy itself. Embassies may never be entered except by agreement by the ambassador.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
cmf
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
yet the swedes for some reason want to extradite him to the US.

You need to do a fact check. They don't.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 34):
Why? I don't believe the US has sought his extradition, but the Swedes have.

Because as part of the extradition from UK to Sweden needs UK's approval to extradite him to another country.

It would be much easier for US to have him extradited direct from UK than go via Sweden. That is the "funny" part.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 36):
Assange made several overtures to be questioned by Swedish authorities while in the U.K. and all were refused.

Ever consider why?

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 36):
Assange offered to return, voluntarily, to Sweden if the government agreed not to allow him to be extradited to the U.S.

Why would any country give such a promise. They have said any extradition request from US would be handled no different from any other extradition request. They really can't give him immunity for whatever may turn up.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 44):
Why would any country give such a promise. They have said any extradition request from US would be handled no different from any other extradition request. They really can't give him immunity for whatever may turn up.

Wow, you speak Orwellian quite fluently. Doubleplusgood!

Quoting moo (Reply 42):
Swedish law says that they cannot charge someone in absentia.

They can charge him via a warrant. By the way, the original prosecutor declined to do so and has sharply criticized his government's continued pursuit of Assange.

Quoting moo (Reply 42):
How does that help Sweden charge him?

The Swedish government has said they only want to question Assange. Why does it matter where he's questioned? If they want to issue charges, they can do so.

Quoting moo (Reply 42):
Rubbish - "wanted for questioning" and extraditions for questioning are quite common.

Rubbish right back at you. The Swedish government has never extradited anyone for "questioning" based on an accusation of rape. If I'm wrong, feel free to provide a citation.
 
cmf
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 45):
Wow, you speak Orwellian quite fluently. Doubleplusgood!

How is stating that no immunity is given and any potential request will acted on based on its merits doublespeak?

Trying to avoid the issue by introducing Orwellian on the other hand...
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
He's not stupid. He's paranoid yes, for good reasons, and after years being paranoid I don't doubt you can become too paranoid.

Agreed. He is well aware that --although the United States should not be (and AFAIK is not) formally involved-- we sure as hell have our unofficial fingers in this matter. And he knows that we are seriously pissed off.
-Doc Lightning-

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BMI727
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 28):
Quite so, shame some of the GOP nutters didn't realise that, thus handing Assange and his supporters a PR coup.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't be taken care of, it just won't be by charging him with treason.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 43):
Article 31 says that consular premises shall not be entered by forces of the host state, except in emergencies (e.g. fire) where the agreement of the consul can be assumed.

I wonder if that's ever been abused... I bet it has.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Aesma
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RE: Assange Granted Asylum In Ecuador

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 42):
Why should Sweden cut any sort of deal with a wanted person?

Because they supposedly want him ? Arrangements during extradition processes are common. And why would anything concerning the US turn up during a questioning over a rape ? Besides I find that answer funny considering the US justice heavy use of all sort of deals.
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