irregking
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No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:26 pm

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sbworcs
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:33 pm

Awful if correct. I don't believe in any form of discrimination - be it old, current or to correct %'s
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tonystan
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:48 pm

South Africa isnt coming across well in the media at all this week now is it?
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TVNWZ
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 1):

So, how do you go about correcting the blatant discrimination and injusticies of the past? Just let it slide?
 
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TupolevTu154
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:56 pm

Hmm, sounds like racism to me!
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):
So, how do you go about correcting the blatant discrimination and injusticies of the past? Just let it slide?

Let me phrase it this way. Do you want to fly in an airplane that the people flying it were hired based on their skill and knowledge in order to run a safe operation, or do you want to fly in an airplane where the most important decision is the color of the skin of the applicant.

The injustices of the past are exactly that, of the past.

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bobnwa
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:06 pm

Looks like South Africa is trying to become politically correct by using affirmative action.
 
kl911
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:09 pm

Politically correct is the worst form of discrimination. Awfull news this.
 
SA7700
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 6):
affirmative action.

It has been in place for at least the past 16 years. Thus the "brain drain" from the country.


SA7700
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Revelation
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 5):
Do you want to fly in an airplane that the people flying it were hired based on their skill and knowledge in order to run a safe operation, or do you want to fly in an airplane where the most important decision is the color of the skin of the applicant.

Is that your way of saying pre-apartheid SAA was an unsafe airline because the pilots were selected for their whiteness?
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sbworcs
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):
So, how do you go about correcting the blatant discrimination and injusticies of the past? Just let it slide?

Two wrongs never make a right. Things happened in the past that were wrong, hateful and bigoted - that does not justify doing the same in reverse now.

Do you think it is a correct course of action then?
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PHX787
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:44 pm

So......is this reverse-apartheid?

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 8):
It has been in place for at least the past 16 years. Thus the "brain drain" from the country.

I hate to sound racist but that's usually what happens when A.A. is in place. But at the same time, a lot of people are discriminated when it comes to race. Here in the states it should be met with lawsuits but that doesn't usually happen.
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DocLightning
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):
So, how do you go about correcting the blatant discrimination and injusticies of the past? Just let it slide?

You don't correct it with more blatant discrimination and injustice.
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):
So, how do you go about correcting the blatant discrimination and injusticies of the past? Just let it slide?

A moral victory is won by exercising high morality. Just continuing the same old problem is not a "correction" of any kind.
 
warren747sp
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:18 pm

i believe it is still possible for SA express and SA airlink only,
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KaiTak747
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:57 pm

Race should not be considered in an application for a place on a pilot cadet scheme - or for anything else for that matter. Applicants should be chosen on merit alone. This is discrimination by SA.
 
thrufru
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:03 pm

I've got a news flash for you guys. Selective hiring based on criteria other than skills and experience is alive and well in the United States and elsewhere. We've just become much more careful about disguising it.
 
planemaker
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:17 am

Quoting thrufru (Reply 16):
I've got a news flash for you guys. Selective hiring based on criteria other than skills and experience is alive and well in the United States and elsewhere. We've just become much more careful about disguising it.

Unfortunately that happens too many times.
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BoxBoy
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:31 am

A company in my past had applications with no names, race, religion, or gender. You were identified only by social security number and credentials. It wasn't until the face to face that flight ops personnel learned any personal info. I think that they had it right.
 
my235
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:01 am

It's sort of a reverse discrimination in an odd way. I personally would feel like a dog being thrown a bone. Awful.
 
technobie
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
A moral victory is won by exercising high morality. Just continuing the same old problem is not a "correction" of any kind.

I agree with you. Here is a question though. What is morality, much less high morality? The problem today is that no one wants to talk about "what morality is" because they associate it with religion and we can't have that! But the fact of the matter is, it plays a huge role in how our society functions. In today's society, everyone is right, no one is wrong and you can't bring "morality" into the discussion because it might offend someone.

All that to say (and what most others are saying here), the focus should be on the qualifications of a person and their ability to perform their job to the highest standards, regardless of race or color or whatever....AND especially regardless of whatever horrible things have been done in the past. Time to move forward...
 
weebie
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:22 am

Still yet to see a black SAA pilot on the PER-JHB route.
 
blueflyer
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:12 am

There are better, less offensive ways to address past discrimination that have the extra advantage of not having to select a less qualified candidate over another candidate who may not have the preferred pedigree.

For instance, has SAA made sufficient efforts to make sure that every black teenager who is considering his or her future after school is even aware that the cadet program does exist? A better awareness of the program among the black community would probably increase the number of applicants many fold, and SAA may not have to change its requirements just to accept more qualified black candidates, or turn away white candidates.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 5):
Do you want to fly in an airplane that the people flying it were hired based on their skill and knowledge in order to run a safe operation

There is, so far, no evidence that the candidates that are being accepted in the cadet program have lower skills than the individuals who are apparently not even been allowed to apply. Nowhere in this story does it say that SAA has lowered its standards, all it says is that white employees are prevented from applying to begin with.

Perhaps all that is happening is that SAA may need more time to find enough qualified candidates.
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boeing773W
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:03 am

It seems like SAA lifted the ban on white cadets late last week within hours of a union launching legal action against them on behalf of three young white applicants.

"In order to avert Solidarity’s court action, SAA informed the trade union in writing that the closing date for applications for the cadet programme was postponed to the end of August, and that the application form on its website was adapted, giving white men also the opportunity to apply."

Source link: http://stopkwotas.co.za/saa-petition/
 
kalla
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:02 am

Well, you can ask the SAA man that proposed this racist programme what he thougt he was doing. His contact details were given on a South African Aviation forum as :

Kabelo Ledwaba

Communications Manager (External)

Email: kabeloledwaba@flysaa.com

Mobile: 27 (0)83 414 4720

Tel: 27 (0)11 978 2760


As indicated on the same forum, one should ask Star Alliance what they plan to do about this errant member here: http://www.staralliance.com/en/contacts/
 
B777LRF
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:05 am

Quoting boeing773W (Reply 23):
giving white men

So they've closed one hole, but opened another by allowing only men to apply?
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flybyguy
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:48 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Is that your way of saying pre-apartheid SAA was an unsafe airline because the pilots were selected for their whiteness?

I'm actually a little surprised that there have been 23 replies thus far in this thread and no one has addressed your question. I will make an attempt.

I think what people on this thread have been rather delicately tap dancing around is that there is a perception that black cadet pilots are inherently less qualified than white pilots. If that were not the case, then there would not be need for affirmative action? I'm almost certain the reason why SAA has instituted this policy because most all candidates have been white.

Regardless of what has happened to equal representation of South African citizens in government in the near 2 decades since the end of apartheid, there has generally been a level of financial privilege afforded to white citizens over the black majority. This namely came to head through property and home ownership, the ability to start a business or earn a fair wage for good work performed. All these things leave financial legacies that can be passed from parent to child and allow each new generation of South African children to be more financially secure than familial generations past.

It is a fact that the majority black population is inherently poor and under-educated because of decades of racist policy. However, it's certainly debatable how past racial subjugation can be addressed fairly and smartly today. Should SAA institute some policy that continues the influx of white applicants with maybe one or two positions being reserved for black South Africans? Or should a long-term solution need to be addressed concerning the deep economic disadvantage the majority black population has with their white counterparts in the country? I think regardless of the solution, people will be disappointed with SAA's actions because Apartheid has left a terrible stain on South Africa that requires everyone there white and black to make long-term sacrifices and compromises to correct. Individuals who refused to sacrifice and reconcile past wrongs in the new South Africa, left the country in droves the moment N. Mandela took power.

I'm a firm believer that economic freedom is the most impactful form freedom. In any racist state (Apartheid South Africa, Pre-Civil Rights Movement America), the means to suppress certain populations have been to bar their participation in the free market. This can thus lead to generations of poverty and social subjugation if said suppressed peoples need to depend on dominators for basic necessities such as food, shelter, and security. It is inherently unfair to expect people subjugated for decades or centuries to be at the level of their dominators the moment restrictions are lifted. It will take decades or centuries for equality to truly take foot.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):

So, how do you go about correcting the blatant discrimination and injusticies of the past? Just let it slide?

Compensate living individuals effected by past unjust policies, where possible. Punishing folks who likely had nothing to do with the original problem is good only for mortgaging that problem to future generations.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 7):


Politically correct is the worst form of discrimination. Awfull news this.

I wouldn't go that far...

Quoting BoxBoy (Reply 18):


A company in my past had applications with no names, race, religion, or gender. You were identified only by social security number and credentials. It wasn't until the face to face that flight ops personnel learned any personal info. I think that they had it right.

Wouldn't be surprised if laws in the future are put in place to force this type of system. Wouldn't complain about it either...

Quoting technobie (Reply 20):

I agree with you. Here is a question though. What is morality, much less high morality? The problem today is that no one wants to talk about "what morality is" because they associate it with religion and we can't have that! But the fact of the matter is, it plays a huge role in how our society functions. In today's society, everyone is right, no one is wrong and you can't bring "morality" into the discussion because it might offend someone.

Hmmm... No. The problem is that the term "morality" is highly subjective. While I agree that religious associations are never a good thing, that's really not the issue. Moral is like "good." Everyone thinks they know what it is, but the variations on that are often large. This is why I have an inherent distrust (at least for the intellectual honesty) of anyone who freely uses terms like "moral", "morality", etc...
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boeing773W
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:06 am

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 26):
I'm actually a little surprised that there have been 23 replies thus far in this thread and no one has addressed your question. I will make an attempt.

I think what people on this thread have been rather delicately tap dancing around is that there is a perception that black cadet pilots are inherently less qualified than white pilots. If that were not the case, then there would not be need for affirmative action? I'm almost certain the reason why SAA has instituted this policy because most all candidates have been white.

Regardless of what has happened to equal representation of South African citizens in government in the near 2 decades since the end of apartheid, there has generally been a level of financial privilege afforded to white citizens over the black majority. This namely came to head through property and home ownership, the ability to start a business or earn a fair wage for good work performed. All these things leave financial legacies that can be passed from parent to child and allow each new generation of South African children to be more financially secure than familial generations past.

It is a fact that the majority black population is inherently poor and under-educated because of decades of racist policy. However, it's certainly debatable how past racial subjugation can be addressed fairly and smartly today. Should SAA institute some policy that continues the influx of white applicants with maybe one or two positions being reserved for black South Africans? Or should a long-term solution need to be addressed concerning the deep economic disadvantage the majority black population has with their white counterparts in the country? I think regardless of the solution, people will be disappointed with SAA's actions because Apartheid has left a terrible stain on South Africa that requires everyone there white and black to make long-term sacrifices and compromises to correct. Individuals who refused to sacrifice and reconcile past wrongs in the new South Africa, left the country in droves the moment N. Mandela took power.

I'm a firm believer that economic freedom is the most impactful form freedom. In any racist state (Apartheid South Africa, Pre-Civil Rights Movement America), the means to suppress certain populations have been to bar their participation in the free market. This can thus lead to generations of poverty and social subjugation if said suppressed peoples need to depend on dominators for basic necessities such as food, shelter, and security. It is inherently unfair to expect people subjugated for decades or centuries to be at the level of their dominators the moment restrictions are lifted. It will take decades or centuries for equality to truly take foot.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but South Africa's poverty problems can now no longer be blamed on apartheid alone. The new government has had 18 years and you will be surprised how little they do for poor black people. On the flip side, education opportunities are being offered to black people, including quotas for university entrance, financial assistance etc, and the fact is that white students still outperform their black counterparts by a large margin. Their black counterparts being students who were born post-1990, students who did not even live through apartheid South Africa.

Back to SAA, the fact is that 95% of applicants who qualify for the cadet program by meeting and exceeding the selection criteria are white males. It's a simple fact that if SAA cuts applications from this group one of two things will happen. Either there will be a shortage of new pilots because there simply aren't enough black applicants who meet the criteria, or SAA will need to lower their standards to ensure that sub-par candidates fill the positions. In the case of the first scenario, they will most likely have to re-open applications to others or hire pilots from outside. The second scenario will have disastrous consequences for SAA's safety record.

As is the norm in South Africa at the moment, they will simply lower standards and fill positions with incompetent people because hiring criteria is based on race quotas. That's what they have done in EVERY sphere, from government to the private sector to universities.
 
SA7700
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:20 am

This thread will be moved to the non-aviation forum as it now contains political content, which is not allowed in the civil aviation forum.

Thanks for your understanding and co-operation in this matter.


Regards,

SA7700
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PHX787
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting boeing773W (Reply 28):
As is the norm in South Africa at the moment, they will simply lower standards and fill positions with incompetent people because hiring criteria is based on race quotas. That's what they have done in EVERY sphere, from government to the private sector to universities.

Why does the government feel the need to do this? Is this post-apartheid scare or pressure from the UN or something? It feels like the country would be going backwards, am I right?

That being said, as a sad result of Apartheid-era politics, I feel that the majority of the "qualified" candidates for a lot of positions are white, due to the segregation and results from that, am I wrong?

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 29):
This thread will be moved to the non-aviation forum as it now contains political content, which is not allowed in the civil aviation forum.

Thanks for not shutting it down because this is a debate which needs to be had.
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flyerboy1990
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:01 pm

I really find South Africa to be fascinating. I'm black and live in the US. Of course, I grew up learning about the Civil Rights movement and all that, and I'm very thankful for it. Blacks were/are the minority and had to fight to be equal. But in SA, Whites are the minority, and are now being discriminated against after previously having control of everything? What keeps the Black majority from gaining power without policies like this one at SAA? Education? Money? Here in the US, at least where I live, there is not any palpable racial tension. You still have closed-minded people out there, but it's generally looked down upon if you "have something against" a group of people. Is race still an everyday thing in SA?
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Flighty
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting boeing773W (Reply 28):
The new government has had 18 years and you will be surprised how little they do for poor black people. On the flip side, education opportunities are being offered to black people, including quotas for university entrance, financial assistance etc, and the fact is that white students still outperform their black counterparts by a large margin.

It takes a long time to change families, much less a culture. 18 years is a blink of an eye. 180 years isn't even very long, culturally. My family probably changed very little in 180 years. Having seen 3-4 generations pass, it impresses me that nothing changes. Nothing! The cultural roots we draw upon are far older than we assume IMO. And our own significance far less.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:05 pm

All I can say is "Welcome to Africa." When it comes to reverse-racism in Africa, nothing surprises me any more.

I vividly remember an experience at Barclay's Bank in Nairobi about 20 years ago. My mom, brother and I had gone in to get some money changed before going out on safari. We waited in line just like everyone else, our turn came up, finally, as the tellers kept gesturing black customers waiting in line behind us to come up to the counter ahead of us, we approached the counter and began our transaction. Halfway through that transaction, the teller brushed us aside, put our transaction aside, and helped a black customer who had literally just walked in the door. We were pretty well stunned by that. We couldn't believe that a reputable British bank would allow their employees to treat customers with the kind of discrimination we experienced, but, as we learned, it was par for the course for that part of the world. If you're white over there, you're second class when it comes to service. My dad learned the same thing when he and a black friend of his went to Honduras and his black friend was always served first and generally given preferential treatment.

I'm sure SAA will continue to hire and train good pilots because their good name depends on it, it just sounds like going forward those pilots will be exclusively black.
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MD-90
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:13 pm

Does it sound to anyone else like they also want a higher proportion of women cadets?
 
PHX787
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:46 am

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 31):
You still have closed-minded people out there, but it's generally looked down upon if you "have something against" a group of people. Is race still an everyday thing in SA?

Precisely, it's heavily looked down upon in the USA.
And I believe it's still is an issue in S.A.. I recall from the Vuvuzela cup 2010 frequent mentionings of townships and stuff and how a lot of blacks are still in squalid conditions.
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bjorn14
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:26 am

I wonder if flight insurance in South Africa will go up? AA is how America got a President named Obama.
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yyz717
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:36 pm

Boycott SAA until this racist policy is reversed. Problem solved.
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PHX787
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 37):
Boycott SAA until this racist policy is reversed. Problem solved.

Good luck convincing people that. I did a search and it took me a while to find a relevant article on this. Goes to show how little this is being covered (at least in the USA)
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flybyguy
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 36):
I wonder if flight insurance in South Africa will go up? AA is how America got a President named Obama.

Lol... you must love getting rises out of people with such unsubstantiated, racist comments. I'm ignorant of the domestic matters of your country, but I'm glad I live in a country where hard work and perseverance are rewarded.

Whether or not the SAA cadet black pilots are qualified for entry to the program, I'm certain they'll be trained vigorously to be safe pilots, much like in India and China. SAA's reputation and the welfare of the flying public is at stake.
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Aesma
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 26):
I think what people on this thread have been rather delicately tap dancing around is that there is a perception that black cadet pilots are inherently less qualified than white pilots

There could be another problem, in that currently most pilots are white. Since I'm sure pilots are involved in hiring new pilots, racism could be a factor.

Quoting boeing773W (Reply 28):
The second scenario will have disastrous consequences for SAA's safety record.

Why ? If a candidate is intelligent enough and fit enough, he can be trained to be a good pilot, even if he starts with a disadvantage like no prior flying experience or no university degree.

Now, in my opinion, if they want to go that way, they shouldn't have a ban on white candidates but maybe quotas, and put more money on the table to train the best black applicants, maybe also have an awareness program like mentioned, help young motivated teens to get flight experience, etc.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):
It takes a long time to change families, much less a culture. 18 years is a blink of an eye. 180 years isn't even very long, culturally. My family probably changed very little in 180 years. Having seen 3-4 generations pass, it impresses me that nothing changes. Nothing! The cultural roots we draw upon are far older than we assume IMO. And our own significance far less.

In my opinion education is king. My grandparents were peasants with no degree, not even a high school one. My parents are both university professors thanks to free education, one has a phd.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
Now, in my opinion, if they want to go that way, they shouldn't have a ban on white candidates but maybe quotas, and put more money on the table to train the best black applicants, maybe also have an awareness program like mentioned, help young motivated teens to get flight experience, etc.

Even quotas are still discriminatory. Why the color of one's skin should play into hiring is beyond me.

-DiamondFlyer
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Aesma
Posts: 7955
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:40 pm

Because the country has a history you can't deny. It's in the interest of everyone including the whites to help level the playing field.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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bwest
Posts: 1119
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:54 am

RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:13 pm

I remember seeing advertising for a guide featuring only "100% black owned businesses" when driving through Jo'burg. I was wondering what reactions a "100% white owned" guide would cause. And a black waiter refused to serve my Asian boyfriend at OR Tambo. I guess some black people in SA didn't really get Mandela's message. It's kinda sad to see that after so many years of discrimination they jump to the occasion to do the same thing when given the chance.
I love my Airport Job! :)
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: No More White Cadet Pilots For South African Airways?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:03 pm

Nice to see your true colors finally come out, Bjorn - a wonderful combination of racial as well as religious intolerance. Now all of the asinine anti-Obama threads that you have started make perfect sense to me.

As for the topic at hand, a more effective way to help address the wrongs of the past - that would help everyone in South Africa - would be to help kids living in these squalid conditions while they are in school etc. That way their performance would improve and they would meet the standards to compete for these jobs on their merits. To me, very early "affirmative action" to level the playing field is justifiable and right...an investment in the future of the nation and not divisive racial quotas / degradation of standards later on.

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