Ken777
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Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:03 am

It's Sunday, the start of the week for many so I guess we can call this one the (probably) shooting for this week.

Might just be the first shooting for the week:

Quote:

At least four people were shot Sunday in a Walmart parking lot in central Texas, police said.

A suspect was arrested at the scene, they said. The shooting took place very early in the morning in Cedar Park, which is just north of Austin.

Early indications were that a group of people met in the parking lot to fight and that at least one person then opened fire, police said.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/19/us/tex...mart-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Actually this one might be considered a Shoot Out as gun owners were simply shooting at each other.  Wow!
 
luv2fly
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:46 pm

What is sad for me is that this news doesn't even faze me anymore.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
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falstaff
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:43 pm

The article says that they "met in the parking lot"... Sounds like a drug deal gone bad to me. Since the article mentions that no employees or customers were hurt that makes the drug deal thing even more plausible because whoever these people were they were not customers, so why where they there?
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falstaff
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 3):
Did a google search for accidental shooting and got following US related shootings for the last week or so

what does that have to do with a shootout in a parking lot. If four people were shooting at each other it wasn't an accident and if it really was four people I doubt it was "self defence". Call me cynical, but after living in the Detroit area for so long I have come to find out that four people with guns shooting at each other in a parking lot usually means drugs.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
Took about 1 minute.

Every issue of the American Rifleman has a page filled with stories (and a source to back them up) about self defence shooting.
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rfields5421
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 2):
so why where they there?

It was 4:30 in the morning - and

Quote:
Police said a crowd of teenagers met in the middle of the parking lot at the store near Highway 183 and FM 1431 ready to finish a fight they started earlier.

"This stemmed from a party that occurred possibly somewhere either in Williamson County or Leander, in which there was alcohol consumed at that party," said Cedar Park Police Chief Henry Fluck.

Fluck said 18-year-old Soloman Onwukaife pulled out a handgun, shooting the four unidentified victims. The chief said quick action by a police officer led to Onwukaife's arrest.

From WFAA in Dallas - http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Five-...Austin-area-Walmart-166696936.html

Walmart parking lots are apparently the 'meeting place' for teens and young people today in many parts of the US. Everyone knows where Walmart is - so "Let's meet at the Walmart parking lot" seems to be common.

At least according to teenagers in my neighborhood.
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):

Source?
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Geezer
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 2):
The article says that they "met in the parking lot"... Sounds like a drug deal gone bad to me. Since the article mentions that no employees or customers were hurt that makes the drug deal thing even more plausible because whoever these people were they were not customers, so why where they there?

First of all.........I haven't read about this incident; and I probably won't, even if I notice it; I visit two different Wal Mart Super Stores on a regular basis, and so far I have yet to see any crimes committed in either one of them; maybe later ?

I'm not clear on what the OP was attempting to point out here..........but it appears that each incident involved a gun; Let's see.........in a population of several hundred million people, I'm not really surprised that there were that many gun-related incidents in that time frame ( a day, a week, a month, ? )

In order to have a "gun-related incident", you need to have at least two things; A. at least one gun B. at least one criminal, or one fool, one idiot, one careless "inhabitant" who lacks any training related to fire arms C. there are probably other things that I can't think of right now; So............

Obviously we have all of these things in our present population of several hundred million people. I think that probably explains the afore-mentioned incidents.

Charley
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falstaff
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 8):
I visit two different Wal Mart Super Stores on a regular basis, and so far I have yet to see any crimes committed in either one of them; maybe later ?

Crimes are committed at Wal-Mart every day. Probably thousands of crimes are committed daily at them nation wide. A friend of my dad's is director of security for the Schnuck's super market chain (Missouri, Indiana, and Illinois) and he deals with everything from drug dealing in the parking lot, to welfare fraud, to simple shoplifting. I was hanging out with the guy on Friday and again last night and stories he tells are amazing. The funny thing is I shopped at Schnuck's when I lived in Missouri and my parents still do and we never see crimes occurring either, but they are there.

A policeman shot a shoplfter in the parking lot of a Walmart by my work a couple of months ago because the guy shot at him first, a student of mine witnessed the shooting while he was collecting carts in the lot.

A few years ago a security guard was run down and then smashed him against a concrete light pole base at a K-Mart in Pontiac, Michigan. The shoplifter stole a bunch of CDs to feed his heroin habit. Crazy stuff happens all the time.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):

Walmart parking lots are apparently the 'meeting place' for teens and young people today in many parts of the US. Everyone knows where Walmart is - so "Let's meet at the Walmart parking lot" seems to be common.

At least according to teenagers in my neighborhood

According to the teens I talk and and I talk to a lot in my line of work, parking lots are a great place to deal and buy drugs. Lots of cars come and go and nobody notices a car that pulls in and then pulls out. If you deal drugs at your house a lot of people will notice that cars pull in and then leave after a very short period of time, which is a dead giveaway for drug dealing. I had that crap going on next to me for a while, but most of the bums didn't have enough money for a car. They would pop by the neighbors house for about two minutes then leave. None of them were people I even saw on my block before and few of them I ever saw around the neighborhood. After the neighbors got evicted all those junkies went away and the street became peaceful again.
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Superfly
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
It's Sunday, the start of the week for many so I guess we can call this one the (probably) shooting for this week.



Why do weekly updates when you can start daily threads about the daily shootings in the community that Obama organized in Chicago.
Just saying.
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cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
what does that have to do with a shootout in a parking lot

thread title: Shooting Of The Week

I wish that really was the shooting of the week.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
Every issue of the American Rifleman has a page filled

So one is a generic source for all news and the other is actively searching for one specific type. Do they have a page for accidents and unlawful use too?

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 8):
In order to have a "gun-related incident", you need to have at least two things; A. at least one gun B. at least one criminal, or one fool, one idiot, one careless "inhabitant" who lacks any training related to fire arms C

You think the police had not received training?
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fr8mech
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 7):
Source?

What do you mean "source?" Those are all independently sourced. They are actual news stories from local news media.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:31 pm

I´ll bet on regular criminals, most likely involved in drugs, or a turf war.
These people are those whom you would like to get least access to guns, but also the most unlikely to be ever disarmed, because they wouldn´t care about gun bans.
Take the UK as an example: Handguns in private hands have been banned since the Dunblane massacre. But since then handguns became something like a status symbol among gangsters and criminals. Since then gun crime involving those banned handguns has skyrocketed, even though they are completely illegal and those caught with them are facing stiff sentences.
Even teenage gangsters use handguns in the UK nowadays.
Similarly in Germany military version (full auto) AK-47s have become a status symbol among pimps and other criminals, where the status symbol before was a butterfly knife and a pitbull dog. Fully automatic weapons have always been banned in Germany for private citizens (there exists a very rarely given exception for certain collectors, but they have to prove a scientific-historical research interest and have many restrictions placed on them, e.g. an ordinary gun safe isn´t enough, they´ll need a fortified basement room like a bank vault with an alarm system connected to the nearest police station to store their guns).
But illegal guns are readily smuggled in e.g. from the Balkans, where government armouries were looted during the unrests and civil wars of the 1990s or from former East German communist party armouries (the East German communists had armouries in about any government or party building. When the wall fell the guards of the former internal intelligence service STASI abandoned their posts and left the armouries, which also contained RPGs and grenades, unguarded for days).
Then there still exist weapons caches from WW2. There are probably hundreds of MG42 machine guns and MP40 submachine guns around, but most (illegal) owners will keep them hidden "just in case they´ll need it some day" and never use them. I knoew a guy in the Netherlands, who bought a house in Oosterbek (site of the final battle between the British paratroopers and the German troops after the failed attempt to capture the bridges over the lower Rhine in 1944). While renovating the house he found a British Sten Mk 5 submachine gun hidden in the attic. He cleaned it up and hid it again, because, if he would have given it to the police, they would just have cut up this item of historical significance.

Jan
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falstaff
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
When the wall fell the guards of the former internal intelligence service STASI abandoned their posts and left the armouries, which also contained RPGs and grenades, unguarded for days).

I have seen guns in Germany that came from that source.

Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
Do they have a page for accidents and unlawful use too?

They don't need to; the newspaper and TV does that job.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
There are probably hundreds of MG42 machine guns and MP40 submachine guns around, but most (illegal) owners will keep them hidden "just in case they´ll need it some day"

If you keep them greased up they are good for a long time, maybe forever. I own several captured WWII German guns that came out of Russia. The weapons were greased up and after a good cleaning worked perfectly. Ammo lasts a long time too. I scored this stuff from 1938 and 1939 and it all shoots. I also have several vacuum sealed cans from 1944 as well and it all shoots perfect. I would bet there are all kinds of WWII handguns tucked away in houses all around Germany. I know there probably plenty of them from the DDR too.

This is 8x56mm



http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/NAZI8X56mm-3-1.jpg

I have some of this American stuff from the war too. This type of ammo is illegal to make and sell to the general public now, but because this stuff was made before the ban, it is legal to own, shoot and sell, this stuff was made in 1943.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/AP30-06-1.jpg

I don't know what I'll do with it, but it nice to have.
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cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
What do you mean "source?" Those are all independently sourced. They are actual news stories from local news media.

Exactly what I asked. What did you use to find them. falstaff understood it.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
They don't need to; the newspaper and TV does that job.

So they are about the use of guns but do not want to present a balanced picture.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Exactly what I asked. What did you use to find them. falstaff understood it.

My apologies; I thought when you wrote "source" somehow you did not understand that these links directed the user to the news website reporting the news. You wanted which aggregator I used to collect my links.

One was local, the rest I found on the FB page for NRA News. Does that make them any less accurate?

If you'd like, I can start a thread for every defensive use of a firearm article I come across and we can discuss it ad-nauseum.

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
So they are about the use of guns but do not want to present a balanced picture.

As balanced as a Google search or a Yahoo search, don't you think? All the incidents I posted occured in August, yet a Search on Google and Yahoo didn't readily turn them up. Is that balanced?

Wow, I don't think I've ever made so many grammatical errors. Four edits!!!

[Edited 2012-08-20 12:19:23]

[Edited 2012-08-20 12:20:05]

[Edited 2012-08-20 12:21:54]

[Edited 2012-08-20 12:23:19]
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cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:34 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
As balanced as a Google search or a Yahoo search, don't you think? All the incidents I posted occured in August, yet a Search on Google and Yahoo didn't readily turn them up. Is that balanced?

No I do not think it is as balanced.

I doubt google treat those links any different than the links I provided. I'm sure the difference is in the keywords used. Something I stated openly. Unlike you who made a claim it took a minute where it was down to having a source providing exactly the type of links you wanted.

I have not been able to identify any keywords that find several of your links. Expanding the number of keywords to find several of them I'm sure I would find more hits too.

I did notice one thing about your links. The areas where they took place are not known to be low on gun ownership. Seems that isn't a deterrent.

The links I provided on the other hand makes it clear that there are a lot of people who have guns and have not even a basic idea how to handle them. Plenty of kids involved. Even a police officer who is supposed to have been trained well. I really do not understand why the pro gun side refuse to deal with this far too common problem.
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fr8mech
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 17):
I really do not understand why the pro gun side refuse to deal with this far too common problem.

You are incorrect. We preach gun safety. Ever been to a range when a class is going on? Ever been to a range where someone makes a mistake?

Ever hear of Eddie Eagle? It's my opinion, and I'm sure the NRA's and any other responisble gunowner's opinion, that this program or one like it be taught in schools. The reason: because firearms are prevalent in our society and we need to teach the safe, responsible handling of said firearms. Instead, the firearms and the owners of firearms are demonized in schools, in the media, and from the podium.

Given the current situation where there are estimated to be over 300,000,000 non-military firearms in the US, don't you think it would be wise for states, and yes, the federal government, to sponsor or at least, advocate for more gun safety training?

But, they don't. And that, among other reasons, is why we have people getting hurt because of negligence and stupidity around firearms.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
he rest I found on the FB page for NRA News.

I have not looked at the NRA's FB page, but I know their stories of armed citizens in their magazines have the source listed at the bottom and they are usually from reputable newspapers, but sometimes from TV stations.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
I´ll bet on regular criminals, most likely involved in drugs, or a turf war.

   This is what I would agree with. This is not a mass shooting as the OP thinks it is.

I will echo the same crap I have been spewing in these kinds of gun threads in the past: If you do not know how to handle a gun nor be responsible with guns, you have ZERO business possessing a gun nor owning one. Be a responsible gun owner, don't do anything stupid or be stupid.

But then again, what I just said usually falls on deaf ears on these boards......   
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cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
You are incorrect. We preach gun safety.

certain parts of it, absolutely. Also glorify having guns for self defense.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Ever been to a range when a class is going on?

Many times. Few times in this country. Was very disappointed in the trigger happiness.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Ever been to a range where someone makes a mistake?

Unfortunately I have seen one guy getting shot in the head because there was no respect for the guns.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
to sponsor or at least, advocate for more gun safety training

Have asked for that repeatedly.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
and that, among other reasons, is why we have people getting hurt because of negligence and stupidity around firearms.

A major reason is that the pro gun organisations resist every kind of requirement. It is incredible that someone who has never touched a gun is allowed to carry it in the public with as little as a two hour class.
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WrenchBender
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:21 pm

Question for you Pro Gun Owners-
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/U...-Canada-after-gun-find-3801161.php
Informed and careful gun owner or ill-informed idiot who thinks he can pack one anywhere ?
I know our laws up here are a little draconian but I don't think he should have to wait 5 months for a court date.

WrenchBender
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PPVRA
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 22):
Informed and careful gun owner or ill-informed idiot who thinks he can pack one anywhere ?

I don't know which, but this is definitely dumb:

"It's just really hard to prove I didn't have criminal intent to sell guns up here,"

. . . that implies the Canadian government is trying to switch the burden of proof onto the defendant! That's unfair, a mistake in logic and is trapping him in Canada.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Maverick623
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):


Why do weekly updates when you can start daily threads about the daily shootings in the community that Obama organized in Chicago.
Just saying.

Epic post is epic.

Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
Do they have a page for accidents and unlawful use too?

Does the Brady Campaign website has a page for lawful gun use and self-defense shootings?

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 22):
Informed and careful gun owner or ill-informed idiot who thinks he can pack one anywhere ?

He's an idiot. First, he failed to declare the gun (which person should know is a big no-no). Second, he says this:

Quote:
Kraig Jacobson said he met other Americans being held in Canadian jail on similar gun charges — people he said were on vacation and unaware of the country's handgun prohibitions.

Which I think we both know is not true (the people he talked to either really are smuggling guns, or lied to the customs officer like he did).

Also, he's assuming that he has to prove that he wasn't going to sell the gun, which is completely false.
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cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Does the Brady Campaign website has a page for lawful gun use and self-defense shootings?

Do you suggest it is an equal source to google?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 22):
Informed and careful gun owner or ill-informed idiot who thinks he can pack one anywhere ?

The CCW classes you take (where you want to be certified in a particular state) perfectly outlines in the course where you can and cannot CCW, when you can and cannot use excessive force with the weapon, etc etc. And there is also an iPad app for that as well, but it is not up to date that much.

There is a lot that goes into the CCW courses, depending on where you go. That is why you need to research first on what the instructors will teach you before taking the course. Not every instructor teaches the same material and the amount of material being taught. Most instructors will not give you range time. They will just lecture you to death. That is not worth anything, IMO.

In Colorado, I recommend Silver Bullet Shooting Range in Wheat Ridge. They will teach you EVERYTHING and they will give you range time and test certification time. It is about $175, but it is very well worth the rate.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):

Do you suggest it is an equal source to google?

Who said anything about Google?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
Every issue of the American Rifleman has a page filled with stories (and a source to back them up) about self defence shooting.
Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
Do they have a page for accidents and unlawful use too?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 27):
Who said anything about Google?

I did. In my first post. Where I listed the links. The start of this part of the discussion.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 22):
Informed and careful gun owner or ill-informed idiot who thinks he can pack one anywhere ?

I'd call him an idiot. I don't cross state lines without checking to make sure the law hasn't changed (though they've been changing for the better).

One of the things most gun owners and gun rights organizations preach is adherence to the law.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Geezer
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
You are incorrect. We preach gun safety.

certain parts of it, absolutely. Also glorify having guns for self defense.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Ever been to a range when a class is going on?

Many times. Few times in this country. Was very disappointed in the trigger happiness.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Ever been to a range where someone makes a mistake?

Unfortunately I have seen one guy getting shot in the head because there was no respect for the guns.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
to sponsor or at least, advocate for more gun safety training

Have asked for that repeatedly.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
and that, among other reasons, is why we have people getting hurt because of negligence and stupidity around firearms.

A major reason is that the pro gun organisations resist every kind of requirement. It is incredible that someone who has never touched a gun is allowed to carry it in the public with as little as a two hour class.

cmf........

Having read a few hundred of your replies, I'm totally convinced that,

A. That you don't like guns
B. That you don't think it's a "good idea" for well trained, level headed, law abiding citizens to possess a CC permits and carry
a concealed weapon for their personal defense
C. That you have no desire to do so
D. and lastly, that you don't think I (or anyone else) should be allowed to possess and carry a concealed weapon

My reaction to these points is as follows.....

A. Your opinion, your choice, your business.........to which you are entitled
B. Same as A
C. Same as A and B
D. This is where we have a parting of the ways; If you feel that you live in an area where crime is nonexistent, and you feel
strongly that having a weapon in your possession is a grave hazard to your's and your families safety, you will never have
to worry about me attempting to deprive you of your right to do so. However.........that works both ways.......please don't
waste mine and your time attempting to deprive me of MY right, or of the "practicality" of me taking whatever steps I deem
necessary to insure MY personal well being.

To sum it all up...........I really think you are trying to "beat a dead horse to death"; (the horse is already dead)

All of this carping about "sources"............that's an age old tactic right out of the liberal / leftie playbook; it only "works" when you employ it against weak-minded people; you're attempts to use it in this discussion is completely useless. as you're not "up against" weak minded people.

Have a nice day !

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 30):
One of the things most gun owners and gun rights organizations preach is adherence to the law.

   That is EXACTLY what NRA encourages its members and all gun owners to do.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 31):
I really think you are trying to "beat a dead horse to death"; (the horse is already dead)

It is not cmf only doing it, it is a lot of posters on this board doing it on this very issue, especially the ones from the UK and Australia. But I ain't naming names.....
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falstaff
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
Unfortunately I have seen one guy getting shot in the head because there was no respect for the guns.

Where was that? I've been shoot at ranges since I was 8 and never even heard of anything like that happening. I'm not saying it couldn't, just saying I haven't heard of it.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 26):
Most instructors will not give you range time

What states don't require range time? Most of the CPL classes I see offered are at ranges. I took mine at a guy's house, but we spent 3 hours at the range too.
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Max Q
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:07 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
ur local time (8 hours 47 minutes 26 secs ago) and read 158 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
You are incorrect. We preach gun safety.

certain parts of it, absolutely. Also glorify having guns for self defense.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Ever been to a range when a class is going on?

Many times. Few times in this country. Was very disappointed in the trigger happiness.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Ever been to a range where someone makes a mistake?

Unfortunately I have seen one guy getting shot in the head because there was no respect for the guns.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
to sponsor or at least, advocate for more gun safety training

Have asked for that repeatedly.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
and that, among other reasons, is why we have people getting hurt because of negligence and stupidity around firearms.

A major reason is that the pro gun organisations resist every kind of requirement. It is incredible that someone who has never touched a gun is allowed to carry it

Very well said Cmf
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
A. That you don't like guns

I have no problems with guns. I have been shooting at ranges since early in my life. At our old summer house we had a skeet range.

It is not the guns. It is the crazy things too many people with guns do and the risks they create to people around them I don't like.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
B. That you don't think it's a "good idea" for well trained, level headed, law abiding citizens to possess a CC permits and carry a concealed weapon for their personal defense
...
D. and lastly, that you don't think I (or anyone else) should be allowed to possess and carry a concealed weapon

I think the self defense argument is abused. There are a few situations where it makes sense. High risk stores is one example.

For most people it is counter productive. It doesn't make them safer. It makes them more likely to have an accident where they or someone who shouldn't is injured or killed. The likelihood they will be in a situation where having a gun could help is much smaller and because few know how to use it in that situation they are more likely to make those situations more dangerous instead.

Too many people carry because of fear. A fear the gun industry is very good at fueling.

On the other extreme too many carry because they are too fascinated with guns and abuse the second amendment to carry at all times.

Hunt and use them on the range. Don't be fooled in to thinking you are safer by having loaded guns around you at all/most times. Very few people are.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
To sum it all up...........I really think you are trying to "beat a dead horse to death"; (the horse is already dead)

I think you don't want to face up to the unhealthy relationship this country has with guns.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
All of this carping about "sources"............that's an age old tactic right out of the liberal / leftie playbook; it only "works" when you employ it against weak-minded people; you're attempts to use it in this discussion is completely useless. as you're not "up against" weak minded people.

Is there anything you don't like you and don't attribute to liberal/leftie?

Weak minded has never crossed my mind. Bullheaded on the other hand...

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
Where was that?

In the army. Five guys in a foxhole shooting at popup targets. One guy put down his weapon next to him and when it hit the ground there was enough force for the bolt to move. It hit the guy standing next to him.

That model was known to have this problem. It was mentioned over and over. We had all shot with it several times a week for a couple of months. This was the first time it wasn't on bulls eye targets. First time when not every shot was checked where it hit. It became a competition between the groups, who could get most targets to fall. We were supposed to load 10 bullets. Quickly people started to load more so they could get more targets.

When this happened we had all done a couple of sessions. He was very disappointed because they failed to get the last targets they needed to get the lead. His frustration is what made him put down the weapon much more forcefully than he should and without doing all the things he had been taught so many times. Fortunately the other guy survived. The bullet only grazed him, but that was luck.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
I've been shoot at ranges since I was 8

I know this isn't what you meant but too funny.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Geezer
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
In the army. Five guys in a foxhole shooting at popup targets. One guy put down his weapon next to him and when it hit the ground there was enough force for the bolt to move. It hit the guy standing next to him.

cmf; Thanks for that explanation; now I can see where you got your present attitude about guns. Allow me to relate a few of my personal experiences that caused me to "rethink" my position about certain things.

All my life I have done things for myself; from working on my own cars, to putting a new roof on my house, painting my own house, cutting down my own trees that needed removing, and doing my own house wiring. Oh.......and I have also made a fair bit of my own furniture, as I enjoy working with wood and using power tools; I just remembered another one........when I was a teenager, it was quite popular to play with carbide and make your own explosives ! I'll touch on that one first;

In about 1944 I was in the 7th grade; someone, I don't remember who, discovered that you could buy a can of carbide, (which came in "pressed in" lid metal qt. cans), then take 3 or 4 grains of carbide, place them in an empty gallon paint can, punch a small hole in the bottom of the can, then put the carbide in the bottom of the can, put a few drops of water on the carbide, causing it to give off a very nasty smelling gas. (which is acetylene gas), push the lid on the can, lay the can on it's side, and while holding your foot on the can, hold a lit kitchen match to the hole on the bottom, and BOOM..........the lid flies 30 feet into the air.

Obviously, this "worked" only because the lid was "pressed in", rather than "screwed on"; For several months, this became a very common thing among young boys my age; but as we all know, many young boys are always trying to "set a record"; in this case, see who could make the can lid go the highest.

Enter one of my class mates in the seventh grade, one Linville Johnson; Linville was a very "likable" kid, but a little "careless"; Linville reasoned that a trash can, being much larger, thereby holding more acetylene from the wet carbide would make a bigger bang, and the lid would fly MUCH higher ! He even named it his "volcano" ! Fortunately, when Linville tried out his "volcano" the first time, no one else was around; unfortunately, when Linville held the match to the hole, the explosion
blew off several of Linville's fingers and much of his face; after many months in the hospital, Linville "survived", but he looked "much different" than he did before he tested his "volcano".

The lesson learned from this unfortunate incident; don't "mess" with carbide and acetylene !
Yet, I have a small oxy - acetylene torch and cylinders that I use for cutting and replacing the carbide tooth inserts on the saw blades for my saw mill; the key difference being..........having gone through class A metalsmith school in the Navy, and having worked with oct acetylene equipment for about 62 years now, I "know what I'm doing" and how to do it";

As far as I know, you can still buy granular carbide (for use in carbide lanterns) Not sure if that's a good analogy or not;


Another very common "tool" which causes probably even more injuries than guns, is chain saws; ( I have five chain saws at the moment)

About 12 years ago, I bought a new Sthil 036 chain saw; while I was using it to remove a small sapling from next to my ex wife's barn foundation, I had an unfortunate "incident"; (you will note, I said "incident", NOT "accident") (big difference)
to make a long story short, the sapling moved in a way I had not anticipated when it fell, (bringing the chain saw chain with it, and I ended up with my left knee cap sawed open, (enabling me to see the knee joint inside my left knee)

Lesson learned from that experience............. either take a 5 year course on proper use of chain saws.........or DON"T touch one ! I was fortunate enough to become best friends with Ted when I moved to Indiana 10 years ago, ( Ted having 25 years experience felling big trees for a big hardwood lumber company ), so I have now gained 10 years of expert training relative to the proper use of chain saws. ( For the record, I feel almost as strongly about chain saws as cmf does about guns.)

I guess it's reasonable to adopt a very "leery" attitude about something when you see a near fatality involving it; I must point out though, it wasn't the gun that caused the guy in the fox hole to almost die........it was the careless misuse and handling of it by the guy who was "in a hurry".

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
What states don't require range time?

AFAIK, Washington State does not require range time. And I have a CCW from that State, which is not recognized here in Colorado. I am still waiting for a United States National CCW Reciprocity, something that the NRA fully supports!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 35):
it was the careless misuse and handling of it by the guy who was "in a hurry"

You're making a lot of poor assumptions but you are right in that he was the cause.

I have no problems with guns. I shoot a lot before the army and I have shoot a lot after. I have shoot at that range and with that guy again. I now consider him one of the safest persons to have around. As I said we had a skeet range. I'm not afraid of guns, but I have respect for them.

My problem is with the people holding them. My army buddy had a lot more training than is required to carry in public. He is well educated, certainly not an idiot, had been trained in safety, could reassemble his weapon in complete darkness in 20 seconds or whatever time it was they required. Yet he made a stupid mistake.

The kind of mistakes happening daily.It is so common you can find plenty of them with a simple straight forward google search. You don't need to look at sites targeted at this kind of information.

The more loaded guns there are the more mistakes there are too. Even trained police make a lot of mistakes. I posted the link to one above and the Miami Beach memorial shooting is another horrible example. More than 100 rounds and hitting several innocent people just because a car didn't stop a block earlier and they were too edgy.

If those were isolated occurrences it might be cost/benefit acceptable, but they are not. Then add all the cases where a gun is involved because they were readily available and it gets much worse. Stop worrying about thieves taking your TV and a other items. Worry about staying healthy and alive.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
Where was that? I've been shoot at ranges since I was 8 and never even heard of anything like that happening. I'm not saying it couldn't, just saying I haven't heard of it.

The only time I can remember hearing about something like that at a civilian range is when a guy committed suicide a couple of years ago at a gun range.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):

Too many people carry because of fear. A fear the gun industry is very good at fueling.

I hope you're not suggesting that the fear is unsubstantiated, because boy do I have a few stories for you.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
In the army.

So, should we ban guns in the Army now too?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
I am still waiting for a United States National CCW Reciprocity, something that the NRA fully supports!

It won't happen until the states get their requirements to match up. And I don't want it to happen until that includes range time and strict qualification tests.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
It won't happen until the states get their requirements to match up. And I don't want it to happen until that includes range time and strict qualification tests.

That may be required for NEW applicants after the new law takes effect. Those who are already CCW holders would be exempt from the requirement, thus being grandfathered in.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
The only time I can remember hearing about something like that at a civilian range is when a guy committed suicide a couple of years ago at a gun range.

I would not count suicides, they are tragic but they are not accidents. Wish it was years ago since the last but I know of one just last month. Again, I would not include it in the need for gun control.

The situation I saw is extremely unusual because a) few people shoot with a submachine gun with a known "loose" bolt b) it is very rare that shooters stand this close. It was only because of the question if I had seen anything I brought it up.

That said, I'm sure you have seen several things on the range that shouldn't have happened.



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
I hope you're not suggesting that the fear is unsubstantiated, because boy do I have a few stories for you.

I'm saying it is exaggerated.

I'm sure you have plenty of stories. I also expect them to be non-representative. Gun proponents claim guns are used for self defense 2 to 2.5 million times per year. FBI reported 1.3 million crimes where force or threat of force was involved. The numbers does not add up.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
So, should we ban guns in the Army now too?

I have not suggested banning guns so why do you go there? A good example of exaggerations.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
That said, I'm sure you have seen several things on the range that shouldn't have happened.

I have, and usually the actions are policed by the other participants in the lanes. Shooting is a rather unforgiving activity and the participants tend to support and correct, when necessary, each other during the activity.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Gun proponents claim guns are used for self defense 2 to 2.5 million times per year.

I've skimmed that study and cautiously agree with the conclusion that the 2 million number is probably too high. But, I will suggest a valid claim of self defense includes when a gun is produced by the victim and the assailant flee or terminates his aggressive action before an actual crime (assault, robbery, rape, murder, etc.) is committed. Many of these probably go unreported and can't be quantified.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 41):
I will suggest a valid claim of self defense includes when a gun is produced by the victim and the assailant flee or terminates his aggressive action before an actual crime (assault, robbery, rape, murder, etc.) is committed. Many of these probably go unreported and can't be quantified.

Back in '98 I had a guy threaten to kick my ass and rob me at a car wash. I was on my way to the shooting range so I had some guns in my trunk (This was in Illinois so no CPL), which I was vacuuming at the time. I produced a pistol and the guy ran away. I never reported it and I am sure he didn't either. I didn't even point the gun at the guy, I just made sure he saw that I had one.

An old friend of mine had to use his gun in self defense once. My friend was a police officer at the time, but since he was off duty and not wearing a uniform the criminals didn't know that. He was walking out of a 7-11 store, in St. Louis, when three men came up behind him and hit him in the head with the grip of a pistol. He went down and he identified himself as a policeman and they really started to beat him, he produced his gun and shot one of them dead. The other two were picked up shortly and charged with attempted murder among other things. All three of them were illegal aliens with long criminal records. My buddy spent a week in the hospital recovering from the beating, but was happy to be alive.
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Maverick623
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 42):
The other two were picked up shortly and charged with attempted murder among other things.

If their buddy died, they should have been charged with Felony Murder.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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falstaff
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RE: Shooting Of The Week: Texas Walmart

Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
If their buddy died, they should have been charged with Felony Murder.

They were not charged with that.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503

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