BestWestern
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:43 am

Is it true that Paul Ryan wishes to ban IVF treatment in the US?

The Sanctity of Human Life Act, which Ryan co-sponsored, would have enshrined the notion that life begins at fertilization in federal law, thus criminalizing in vitro fertilization—the process of creating an embryo outside of a woman's womb.

http://www.medbroadcast.com/channel_...id=2048&relation_id=0#.UDSMZ6AkyVk

Things like this not picked up in the screening for suitability for becoming a Vice President.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:59 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
Is it true that Paul Ryan wishes to ban IVF treatment in the US?

No

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
would have enshrined the notion that life begins at fertilization in federal law, thus criminalizing in vitro fertilization—the process of creating an embryo outside of a woman's womb.

Have you read the law? It is a short three page bill.

Quote:
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the 'Sanctity of Human Life Act'.

SEC. 2. DECLARATION.

In the exercise of the powers of the Congress, including Congress' power under article I,section 8 of the Constitution, to make necessary and proper laws, and Congress' powerunder section 5 of the 14th article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States--(1) the Congress declares that--(A) the right to life guaranteed by the Constitution is vested in each humanbeing, and is the paramount and most fundamental right of a person; and(B) the life of each human being begins with fertilization, cloning, or itsfunctional equivalent, irrespective of sex, health, function or disability, defect,stage of biological development, or condition of dependency, at which timeevery human being shall have all the legal and constitutional attributes andprivileges of personhood; and(2) the Congress affirms that the Congress, each State, the District of Columbia, andall United States territories have the authority to protect the lives of all human beings residing in its respective jurisdictions.

SEC. 3. DEFINITIONS.

For purposes of this Act 1) FERTILIZATION- The term 'fertilization' means the process of a humanspermatozoan penetrating the cell membrane of a human oocyte to create a humanzygote, a one-celled human embryo, which is a new unique human being.(2) CLONING- The term 'cloning' means the process called somatic cell nucleartransfer, that combines an enucleated egg and the nucleus of a somatic cell to makea human embryo.(3) HUMAN; HUMAN BEING- The terms 'human' and 'human being' include each andevery member of the species homo sapiens at all stages of life, beginning with theearliest stage of development, created by the process of fertilization, cloning, or itsfunctional equivalent.

Please show where it makes IVF illegal.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5447
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):
Please show where it makes IVF illegal.

Let me clarify it for you.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):
the life of each human being begins with fertilization, cloning, or itsfunctional equivalent, irrespective of sex, health, function or disability, defect,stage of biological development, or condition of dependency, at which timeevery human being shall have all the legal and constitutional attributes andprivileges of personhood; and(2) the Congress affirms that the Congress, each State, the District of Columbia, andall United States territories have the authority to protect the lives of all human beings residing in its respective jurisdictions.


[Edited 2012-08-22 06:16:39]
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
QFA380
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:38 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
Let me clarify it for you.
begins with fertilization, cloning, or itsfunctional equivalent

IVF is a functional equivalent of cloning and fertilisation in that a human ovum is fertilised, creating a zygote.

What this would likely effect however is IVF doctors implanting/fertilising a large number of embryos whereby the health of a fetus (and mother) depends on the other fetus' terminating. It would also in effect ban long term embryo storage and embryonic stem cell research. I'd imagine potential criminal proceedings for IVF doctors would force many to leave practice though, imagine bumping an embryo and getting charged with assault occasioning bodily harm. However to claim that the law bans IVF is factually incorrect.

This clearly is bad act though with many far reaching consequences that I can imagine would end up before the SCOTUS quite clearly. Don't worry it has failed four times before and it will not pass.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20142
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):

What this would likely effect however is IVF doctors implanting/fertilising a large number of embryos whereby the health of a fetus (and mother) depends on the other fetus' terminating. It would also in effect ban long term embryo storage and embryonic stem cell research.

At present, there is an issue with "spare" embryos. There are a lot of them in storage. An awful lot. Although the refrigeration systems are multiply redundant, it's only a matter of time until one such system fails and a whole freezer of embryos is lost.

I wonder if that would be considered negligent homicide under such an act.

While I disagree that this act would ban IVF outright, it would make IVF into an extremely risky business.

But I have a broader philosophical question: Why is a party that is championing the cause of "smaller government" and "states rights" pushing such an act? Even homicide laws are state, not federal laws. Why does this need to trump the sacred GOP concept of "States Rights" and at the same time pass yet another government regulation?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
Let me clarify it for you.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):the life of each human being begins with fertilization, cloning, or itsfunctional equivalent, irrespective of sex, health, function or disability, defect,stage of biological development, or condition of dependency

It simply states that life begins at this point. No where does it say IVF is illegal or anything else is illegal in this bill.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
It would also in effect ban long term embryo storage and embryonic stem cell research. I'd imagine potential criminal proceedings for IVF doctors would force many to leave practice though,

It does no such thing. You are adding your own thoughts to what it say. It simply states that that the lives created should be protected and that the sates have the right to protect those lives.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5447
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 5):
It simply states that life begins at this point. No where does it say IVF is illegal or anything else is illegal in this bill

IVF involves multiple embryo's in the hopes that one is viable. It would make abortion illegal and IVF illegal , or next to it due to the issues and costs associated.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 5):
It simply states that that the lives created should be protected and that the sates have the right to protect those lives.

IVF would be next to impossible, as it is a process that Fertilizes eggs outside the womb.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
Is it true that Paul Ryan wishes to ban IVF treatment in the US?

I don't believe he set out to do that with that bill, but the text, if passed, will definitely make IVF a tricky proposition legally, and I think he would view that as an acceptable side-effect.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5447
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
I don't believe he set out to do that with that bill, but the text, if passed, will definitely make IVF a tricky proposition legally, and I think he would view that as an acceptable side-effect.

If he adheres to the Catholic teachings, IVF is wrong. So I think even if he didn't intend it, he would be morally ok wiith it according to Catholic teachings.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20142
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 5):
You are adding your own thoughts to what it say. It simply states that that the lives created should be protected and that the sates have the right to protect those lives.

No, actually it says that Congress (meaning the Federal one) has the right to protect those lives. There's that vaunted 10th Amendment being ignored and the "pick-and-choose" Constitutional fundamentalism rearing its ugly head again. I wonder if they will try to defend it under the "Commerce Clause" if it goes to court.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 8):
If he adheres to the Catholic teachings,

He doesn't. Simply being anti-abortion doesn't adhere to Catholic doctrine. There's that whole "help the poor" thing. Even the Vatican has blasted his budget.

Again, it's a very convenient use of religion... and an abandonment of it when it ceases to be conveinent. Nothing new to see here.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5447
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
He doesn't. Simply being anti-abortion doesn't adhere to Catholic doctrine. There's that whole "help the poor" thing. Even the Vatican has blasted his budget.

Again, it's a very convenient use of religion... and an abandonment of it when it ceases to be conveinent. Nothing new to see here.

I am not disagreeing with you here Doc. I was only putting forth his logic for this one issue of IVF.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20142
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):


I am not disagreeing with you here Doc. I was only putting forth his logic for this one issue of IVF.

The trouble with logic is that it needs to be consistent or it isn't logic.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5447
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
The trouble with logic is that it needs to be consistent or it isn't logic.

But logic and religion are two different thing Doc.  
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6146
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
The trouble with logic is that it needs to be consistent or it isn't logic.

The weird logic also would have to allow either that freezing "humans" indefinitely is OK, or that the disposal of them is OK (I suspect the limit would be that it is OK as long as they are just a jumble of cells still figuring out what they are... which obviates their argument in the first place).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
PHX787
Posts: 7881
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
Is it true that Paul Ryan wishes to ban IVF treatment in the US?

Does he? Who cares. Will he? Probably not. I doubt Ryan at this point would seek to change anything that's not involving the economy.


REMEMBER:

HE IS THE VICE PRESIDENT CANDIDATE, NOT THE PRESIDENT. Any power he has is little, if any. Mostly just Senate-influence.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
REMEMBER:

HE IS THE VICE PRESIDENT CANDIDATE, NOT THE PRESIDENT. Any power he has is little, if any. Mostly just Senate-influence.

That all depends on the president's leadership style.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6146
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
Does he? Who cares. Will he? Probably not. I doubt Ryan at this point would seek to change anything that's not involving the economy.

But he will have influence, as you follow on to say:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
REMEMBER:

HE IS THE VICE PRESIDENT CANDIDATE, NOT THE PRESIDENT. Any power he has is little, if any. Mostly just Senate-influence.

Yet people make a big stink about another VP saying "in chains"? Remember the purpose of the VP: to replace the President if something happens to him. And don't forget: Johnson, Ford, G.H.W. Bush were also "just Vice Presidents".

So it does matter in an important way.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20142
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
HE IS THE VICE PRESIDENT CANDIDATE, NOT THE PRESIDENT. Any power he has is little, if any. Mostly just Senate-influence.

And if Romney wins and dies, guess who the President will be?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
PHX787
Posts: 7881
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:59 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):
Yet people make a big stink about another VP saying "in chains"? Remember the purpose of the VP: to replace the President if something happens to him. And don't forget: Johnson, Ford, G.H.W. Bush were also "just Vice Presidents".

God I wish people would just SHUT UP about this whole VP thing. Vice Presidents have very little to say. Biden is a jackass and IMHO Ryan should be Prez, not Romney.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
And if Romney wins and dies, guess who the President will be?

Someone who would probably fix the economy better than Romney OR Obama.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6146
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:27 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
God I wish people would just SHUT UP about this whole VP thing.

I'm sorry if this is bothering you, however you are also commenting and not "shutting up" either. So please don't imply that this is something that everyone else is doing.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
and IMHO Ryan should be Prez, not Romney.

Well that is why it is important. why who is VP is important, because quite often they go on to be President.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
Someone who would probably fix the economy better than Romney OR Obama.

We definitely need that but who would that be? Because if you think it is Rep. Ryan due to his "plan", then you need to really look at the plan and review what it encompasses. His own party did not support it (not that that is actually saying much or even meaning it is a bad plan, quite the opposite probably). It may very well be a good starting point (read it, it is not complete) but for it to be implemented compromise will be required. And I doubt that can happen right now.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:45 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
I doubt Ryan at this point would seek to change anything that's not involving the economy.

So, why did he co-sponsor a bill that could outlaw IVF treatment?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
God I wish people would just SHUT UP about this whole VP thing.

My question was a valid one, and ALL CAPS, doesn't change the question. An American VP candidate sponsored a bill to outlaw IVF treatment. IVF is even available in Afghanistan, but potentially illegal in the USA if the number two in America gets himself elected.

I consider myself centre-right in politics. Boy these guys are far off the Right wing scale. Even in Ireland with very strict abortion laws, there is no issue with IVF.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14): I doubt Ryan at this point would seek to change anything that's not involving the economy.
So, why did he co-sponsor a bill that could outlaw IVF treatment?

Please show in the bill where it outlaws anything...

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 20):
An American VP candidate sponsored a bill to outlaw IVF treatment.

An American Presidential candidate supports late term abortions...Which is worse? The person who is worried about the creation of life or the person who will toss that created life into the garbage can?
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:18 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 21):
or the person who will toss that created life into the garbage can?

Thanks for dragging an honest question into the gutter.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5447
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 21):
Please show in the bill where it outlaws anything...

You still don't get the concept of unintended consequences do you? It's funny how his bill would make abortions illegal,bringing babies into a world where the patents didn't want them, and at the same time making it highly difficult if not illegal for parents who have bioligical issue bring children into a loving environment
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:40 pm

No disrespect to our neighbours to the south, but I’m often surprised at the level of influence organized religion has on public policy in the US. It’s almost like the separation of church and state is something some conservatives in the US would rather ignore. Biden is a Catholic, so is Obama, so are a lot of Democrats/progressives, yet they don’t seem to have this need to enforce their religious beliefs on the general population. I understand and respect the historical significance of social conservatism in the US and I know the country is pretty much split on the abortion issue, but I just find it hard to believe how regressive some of these GOP polices are.

KrisYYZ
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 21):
Please show in the bill where it outlaws anything...
Quoting windy95 (Reply 21):
An American Presidential candidate supports late term abortions...Which is worse? The person who is worried about the creation of life or the person who will toss that created life into the garbage can?

I encourage you to work on understanding the complexity of things rather than consistently trying to reduce their complexity for no other purpose than to win internet arguments.

A law formally designating fertilization as the point at which a potential human becomes entitled to full constitutional protections would have substantial downstream impacts on others who are also entitled to constitutional protections. It's a complicated issue.

Mr. Ryan's sponsorship of this bill tells us a lot about him.

[Edited 2012-08-23 08:32:14]
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 26):
Please show in the bill where he they outlawed anything?

The text of this bill does NOT directly outlaw IVF; instead it provides the legal rationale to outlaw a number of things including IVF, and substantially alters the current balance of 'Constitutional protections' between the fertilized egg and the mother carrying it...in favor of the conservative/religious right/anti-abortion side of the debate (for better or worse). That is the purpose of the bill.

If you can't see how criminalization of certain activities would be the logical consequence of the passage of Mr. Ryan's bill, then I don't know what to tell you other than suggest you sit the rest of this thread out because you've missed the whole point raised by the OP.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 26):
And Obamas voting against late term abortion and the "born alive" acts tells us a lot about him.

Indeed.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20142
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
Someone who would probably fix the economy better than Romney OR Obama.

By doing nothing? By raising taxes on most Americans and lowering them on the wealthiest? By plunging the government even deeper into death by increasing government spending?

Make no mistake: Paul Ryan is not about smaller government. He's about bigger government, just not bigger government for Americans. Only bigger government against other countries and bigger government in the home and bedroom.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 24):
It’s almost like the separation of church and state is something some conservatives in the US would rather ignore.

It isn't almost that way, it is that way. Or did you miss the bit where the AFA (not exactly a non-influential group within the GOP) claimed that the First Amendment was meant to apply only to Christians?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:22 am

Polifact has weighed in on this topic...


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-paul-ryan-would-outlaw-vitro-fer/

UltraViolet has a point that the bill Ryan backed could significantly alter the way in vitro fertilization is practiced. However, the group exaggerates when it says the bill in question would "outlaw in vitro fertilization." The bill doesn’t outlaw the procedure directly -- whatever impact it has would likely require action by states, which many states may be unwilling to undertake. And while the bill likely outlaws specific practices that have historically been considered important for practicing in vitro fertilization, it would not ban the procedure itself. On balance, we rate the claim Half True.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2004
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: GOP VP Candidate Wishes To Ban IVF Treatment?

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 28):
Polifact has weighed in on this topic...

Well at least you fact-checked yourself lol. So obviously he neither voted to ban IVF nor was it probably his intention. Of course, as has been discussed, the down-the-line impacts of the law would complicate things...but then again that's why politicians amend their bills, but this one wasn't passed.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 24):
but I’m often surprised at the level of influence organized religion has on public policy in the US.

Organized religion in and of itself does not have a large level of influence, but there are many religious people in the US, so as a matter of their personal faith the type of legislation politicians pass matters to them. If, because of their faith and what they believe, they see a law passed as unjust or immoral, they'll lobby against it. Politicians also try to pander to them, but that's a whole other issue.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 24):
Biden is a Catholic

Yeah so is Pelosi, but at best they're convenient Catholics...they'll invoke the Catholicism card when it suits them politically, but otherwise they don't care as evidenced by the type of legislation they support.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 24):
so is Obama

Obama is not Catholic, he's...well I honestly don't know what he is after that fiasco with Reverend Wright's church.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 24):
so are a lot of Democrats/progressives, yet they don’t seem to have this need to enforce their religious beliefs on the general population.


They certainly feel comfortable enough forcing their own beliefs and morals on the rest of the country though in forcing Catholic organizations to cover contraception and abortions contrary to their religious beliefs. Again, convenient Catholics as, if they were truly practicing Catholics, they wouldn't be working to strong-arm their own church to pay for things they're obligated to abstain from.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 24):
but I just find it hard to believe how regressive some of these GOP polices are.

Just because someone views every life as sacred, doesn't make them "regressive". There's a healthy ethical debate to be had over the subject as it's obviously a very complex issue, but it by no means makes one "regressive".

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1337Delta764, A332DTW, Alias1024, casinterest, LittleFokker, Okie and 28 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos