ryu2
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Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:11 am

Someone was kicked off a DL flight at BUF for wearing an anti-TSA T-shirt, even after submitting through secondary screening!

Quote:
Said @Delta," it's not you, it's the shirt." Yet changing the shirt wasn't good enough and pilot refused to let me board.
http://arijitvsdelta.blogspot.co.uk/

Is this going too far?

[Edited 2012-08-22 22:16:46]
 
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Tugger
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:24 am

Quoting ryu2 (Thread starter):
Is this going too far?

Put simply: Yes.

But I am sure someone can over complicate it and note that this is a public space and you should be aware that some people will take umbrage to whatever comments you make make (with clothing or otherwise). Or that it is a private company and they can do what they feel best serves their customers, etc. Or that the captain is the last and ultimate authority and can do this if he (or she) feels it is best for the flight. Or any of many other complexities one might think of.

But truly and honestly, yes it is an over reaction however we seems to like overreacting nowadays.

Tugg
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RWA380
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting ryu2 (Thread starter):
Is this going too far?

You bet it is, this is not what America stands for, sometimes freedom is expressed in ways other people don't like, but the freedom to express your opinions is protected by the Constitution. Unless the guy endangered himself or someone else, there was no reason to keep him from flying.
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PHX787
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:41 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Quoting ryu2 (Thread starter):
Is this going too far?

Put simply: Yes.

Yes definitely, unless he was being overly unruly. IIRC the naked protesters in the TSA weren't kicked off their flight (at least the one I witnessed wasn't)


I hope this guy takes action against DL
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N14AZ
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:54 am

This was discussed yesterday but the thread was deleted or moved. I cannot find it anymore.

I am not sure if you sure if you saw the T-shirt in full size and the words written on it. I find it very Strange to walk into an int'l airport in the USA with such a T-shirt. I am convinced he was looking for trouble or wanted to kind of test the authorities.
 
checksixx
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:07 am

I'd say your looking for trouble walking into an airport wearing this t-shirt. As a law enforcement officer, I do disagree how they were handled after being denied the flight, but wearing this shirt? Come on...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-445bjHW9ug4/UDM-wO1gkzI/AAAAAAAAB-k/HWggoK8HsEA/s1600/ZOMG.jpg
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:10 am

I think it was going a bit far to refuse him boarding, but we seem to be seeing more and more of this type of thing, and for some reason it's almost entirely contained within the US. However, I think that wearing this T-shirt to a US airport when you clearly know how they react, is someone looking and hoping for trouble. It's no different than approaching the Police while wearing a T-shirt reading "f**k the police" and not expecting trouble.
 
hypercott
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:21 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 6):
I think it was going a bit far to refuse him boarding, but we seem to be seeing more and more of this type of thing, and for some reason it's almost entirely contained within the US. However, I think that wearing this T-shirt to a US airport when you clearly know how they react, is someone looking and hoping for trouble. It's no different than approaching the Police while wearing a T-shirt reading "f**k the police" and not expecting trouble.

The essence of free speech is that you should not have to expect any trouble by *passively* wearing such a T-shirt. No matter what or where or when you wear it. Period. It's the law, the constitutional law.
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:38 am

Quoting hypercott (Reply 7):
The essence of free speech is that you should not have to expect any trouble by *passively* wearing such a T-shirt. No matter what or where or when you wear it. Period. It's the law, the constitutional law.

Oh really? Okay, on your next flight yell out "bomb!", and then claim you were executing your right to free speech. When you get out of jail in 20 years time, come back here and tell us how that worked out.

This guy was an attention-seeker looking for trouble. He got it. End of story.
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N14AZ
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:46 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 6):
but we seem to be seeing more and more of this type of thing, and for some reason it's almost entirely contained within the US

To me that has nothing to do with the USA. As someone else said yesterday (I think it was PanHam) I fully agree, if I would have to sit next to this guy I would ask the stewardess the give me another seat.

Is this the same guy that was arrested, you know, this guy with that ugly name Poop or something like this.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:01 am

It was me saying that. I would not like to sit net to "Poop".

There are some key words which should not be said and not be printed on a t-shirt while using air services. High on that list is "Bomb" and "Terrorist" , both show up on that T-shirt.

"Gonna kill us all" is the icing on the cake.

As much as I am outspoken for liberty, free speech, tolerant and liberal as i am, but this is going too far and anyone who is wearing such a shirt is aksing for trouble.

I do agree that this case was handled stupidly by police, excessive questioning the guy was not necessary.

Real terrorists do not advertise their intentions on their chest.
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Eagleboy
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:13 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
As much as I am outspoken for liberty, free speech, tolerant and liberal as i am, but this is going too far and anyone who is wearing such a shirt is aksing for trouble.
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 4):
I am convinced he was looking for trouble or wanted to kind of test the authorities.
Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 6):
However, I think that wearing this T-shirt to a US airport when you clearly know how they react, is someone looking and hoping for trouble. It's no different than approaching the Police while wearing a T-shirt reading "f**k the police" and not expecting trouble.

He looked for trouble or at least some sort of attention and got what he was looking for.

It's not as if he just grabbed the shirt on top of the pile in his home and unfortunately it was this one on the day he was flying.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:32 am

Quoting hypercott (Reply 7):

The essence of free speech is that you should not have to expect any trouble by *passively* wearing such a T-shirt. No matter what or where or when you wear it. Period. It's the law, the constitutional law.

Free speech laws do not apply. The Government did not deny him boarding, Delta did.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:47 am

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 11):
He looked for trouble or at least some sort of attention and got what he was looking for.

It's not as if he just grabbed the shirt on top of the pile in his home and unfortunately it was this one on the day he was flying.

I agree with this too. Anyone with half a thimble of common sense would know that this shirt would probably get a reaction simply by wearing it. I would say that simply by wearing it he was attracting attention to himself in a most negative way.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
There are some key words which should not be said and not be printed on a t-shirt while using air services. High on that list is "Bomb" and "Terrorist" , both show up on that T-shirt.

Exactly!
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flyingsux
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 13):
I agree with this too. Anyone with half a thimble of common sense would know that this shirt would probably get a reaction simply by wearing it. I would say that simply by wearing it he was attracting attention to himself in a most negative way.

I'd say he was hoping something like this would happen - Now he has reason to sue DL, TSA, and the State of NY... Idiot!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:05 am

Just like a restaurant can have a no shoes, no shirt,, no service policy, a private business can have rules of conduct and decorum for its customers. A business has a right to refuse service if it thinks allowing it will adversely affect other customers.

I'm all for free speech...but just as some places require a suit and tie for service, Delta requires shirts that don't say bomb, terrorist and gonna kill us all.

It's not a first amendment issue. He's free to stand outside the airport all day proudly displaying his cleverness. Delta is under no obligation to cater to him.
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silentbob
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 11):
He looked for trouble or at least some sort of attention and got what he was looking for.

It's not as if he just grabbed the shirt on top of the pile in his home and unfortunately it was this one on the day he was flying.

Exactly, the guy is the type that I see way too frequently lately. Trolling the the public, trying to offend people for no other reason than because of their "right to free speech".

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 8):
This guy was an attention-seeker looking for trouble. He got it. End of story.

The shirt he wore on the second day pretty much confirms that. Bright color, bordering on being offensive. It's not like that is the only type of shirt available supporting the fight against that particular disease.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 12):
Free speech laws do not apply.

A lot of Americans have no idea what "freedom of speech" really means.
 
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LN-MOW
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 8):
This guy was an attention-seeker looking for trouble. He got it. End of story.

Bingo. Can't fix Stupid.
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vfw614
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:54 pm

How could free speach as a constitutional right apply between two private individuals as a pax and an airline? If it did, there would no such thing as defamation or libel as you could always pull the free speech card. The captain was simply exercising the powers of his company in relation to the contract of carriage. Now whether the termination of the contract of carriage by the captain amounts to a breach of contract is a wholly different story. And of course we can, leaving all legal considerations aside, also discuss whether the captain should have taken a more relaxed view.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 16):
A lot of Americans have no idea what "freedom of speech" really means.

Pot? Kettle? Freedom of speech means freedom from GOVERNMENT interference. After all, the First Amendment begins "Congress shall make no law . . ." (before another lawyer corrects me, yes I do know that the First Amendment also applies to the other branches and to state and local governments via the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments and case law).

Freedom of speech does not mean that Delta cannot regulate speech on board in whatever way it sees fit. There's an episode of On the Fly where WN threatens to deny a passenger on a flight to BHM for wearing a shirt that says something like "Auburn sucks." That's legal, that's constitutional, and that's probably smart.
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26point2
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:46 pm

People like this guy are desperate for attention and often use poor judgement to get it. Read his blog...pretty clear he is an attention hore. I really wish Americans could understand what the Constitutiion gives them the right to do and more importantly what it doesn't give them the right to do. Funny how people think the Constitution will protect them from acting like a fool.

We went through this recently in my part of the country with the "Open Carry" nut jobs who thought it would be a good idea to demonstrate their "Constitutional Rights" by openly carrying, legally, their guns into the shopping mall. Idiots soon found out that Constitutional Rights end at the door of the mall.
 
soon7x7
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 16):
A lot of Americans have no idea what "freedom of speech" really means.

Think it would be better said...A lot of Americans have no idea what it is to loose Free Speech.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 8):
This guy was an attention-seeker looking for trouble. He got it. End of story.

Oh, welcome to my RU list! I was looking for a succinct way to express this, and you did it first.

The guy didn't get up in the morning, pull this shirt of his pile of t-shirts and just happen to put it on. [EDIT: Holy same idea, Batman! Poster above had the same wording. Good point, Sir. Sorry to seem like copycat.]

Free speech, even in the US, isn't absolute. I think your example of "try shouting 'bomb' on a plane and see what happens" is a very nice adaptation of the famous US Supreme Court case that used shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre as an example of speech that legally could be restricted and punished.

Moreover, free speech does not mean speech without consequence. Private persons and companies are absolutely free to mete out consequences for speech of certain types. "Fighting words" may give someone a right to punch me in the face. If a person wants to use racial epithets in everyday speech, I have the right not to employ him, and he is minimally-protected if members of the targeted group want to kick his tuckus.

A rowdy bar that I used to frequent posted a sign that said very directly (at my suggestion) something that other places said less directly. It said, "We reserve the right to refuse service to YOU." The doorman would point at it if any person being a jerk questioned the bar's authority to exclude or eject him. Delta was well wthin its rights, common carrier or not, to exclude this moron from its flight.

I am amused by the poster who says that this kind of speech restriction only happens in the US. Time to adjust your world view. I'm pretty sure the people of Gambia, whose president has proclaimed that they are going to execute everyone on death row in the whole country in the next month, wouldn't wear a t-shirt that says, "Screw the President". North Korea? Even Russia? Indonesia? Singapore? So give it a rest.

[EDIT: Reading carefully through the rest of this thread, I am just SO DELIGHTED to see how many of our a.net members have a firm grasp about what our very-special constitution protects, and what it doesn't.]

[Edited 2012-08-23 11:03:11]
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:04 pm

Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question: Since so many Americans seem to hide behind the constitution and by all account, most don't understand it, my question is: is it taught in any capacity in school? Are Americans given any education on what it means or do they just hear things here and there and twist it to suit their own means?
 
YankeesFan
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:07 pm

Serves him right. He got what he deserved.
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flyingsux
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 24):
Since so many Americans seem to hide behind the constitution and by all account, most don't understand it, my question is: is it taught in any capacity in school? Are Americans given any education on what it means or do they just hear things here and there and twist it to suit their own means?

It was when I went to school - Even if it isn't now or if this guy didn't learn about it, seems to me he took extra time and care in making sure he would cause a scene than know what his Constitutional Rights are. You'd think he would have googled it before he tried to hide behind it. He got just what he deserved.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:00 pm

There's no uniform curriculum in American public primary school or secondary school.

Texas has uniform textbooks, but all teachers don't teach to the text.

However, a typical Texas kid can tell you about the US Constitution, the Texas Constitution, what "Six Flags Over Texas" means and what those flags were, and a good deal of Texas (and American) history. Maybe this was why we had so many Texas kids in the Ivy League. (OTOH, it's a big, populous state, so who knows.)

Not so much in some other states.
 
nw1852
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:33 pm

I'm trying to look at this from both sides. Was this guy instigating? I think a little. Did the TSA, Delta and transit police over react? Again a little. I certainly believe in the constitution and free speech, it's what makes America great and many have died protecting this freedom after all it was a t-shirt. Now some questions from the other side... What if this guy had been wearing a turbin?

Would the TSA, transit police or the Delta pilot have acted this way? Probably not! Rules have to be the same for everyone, not just protected classes. My opinion only is that the parties involved were all trying to make a point of frustration from both a passenger and enforcement view. The root problem is that is long as there are radicals willing to blow up airplanes there will be enforcement and profiling problems and more instances like this.
 
robsaw
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 22):
Free speech, even in the US, isn't absolute. I think your example of "try shouting 'bomb' on a plane and see what happens" is a very nice adaptation of the famous US Supreme Court case that used shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre as an example of speech that legally could be restricted and punished.

Moreover, free speech does not mean speech without consequence. Private persons and companies are absolutely free to mete out consequences for speech of certain types. "Fighting words" may give someone a right to punch me in the face. If a person wants to use racial epithets in everyday speech, I have the right not to employ him, and he is minimally-protected if members of the targeted group want to kick his tuckus.

There was a good editorial in Canadian newspaper that I read a couple of days ago and you more or less have it right, given that US/Canada have similar constitutional provisions on protected speech (yes, I used the word "protected" specifically because that is the crux of the issue).

The editorial made a good argument that the whole free speech/absolute/yelling fire argument really misses the point, which is that free speech provisions do not and never were intended to protect speech that otherwise was criminal in nature (which could be anything from inciting a riot to slander to copyright/patent violation). And, of course, it applies to the government BUT might also apply to other quasi-public agencies and businesses in general in the sphere of civil/human-rights in a more limited way.
 
srbmod
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:27 pm

Several years ago, a Canadian friend of mine was flying to Las Vegas and wore a t-shirt that said "I Hate People". At the airport in Canada, it got him some extra screening at security and that was it. Airport security didn't force him to cover the shirt up or change into another shirt nor did the airline (WestJet) force him to do so. In both cases, they were within their rights to make such a request as a condition of boarding the a/c, but opted not to.

When it comes to who gets on an a/c, the Captain has the ultimate say in whether or not a passenger can fly. This passenger caused an issue with his t-shirt and ultimately the Captain thought it was best to deny the passenger their seat onboard out of respect for the other passengers.

To be quite honest, it was as though this guy wore this shirt solely for the purpose to see what would happen and to trigger a response like this. He's not the first passenger to be denied boarding because of a t-shirt and considering his use of the "race card" in this and saying that Delta has "racist employees", he comes across as a bit of rabblerouser.

Airport/aviation security is not a joking matter. Remember the guy several years ago that got detained by TSA agents because he wrote "Kip Hawley Is An Idiot" on a ziplock bag in protest of the TSA? If you want to be critical of the TSA, don't use the airport security lines as your soapbox. The vast majority of us are not thrilled with the TSA either, but we grin and bear it, as we know that in order to fly somewhere, we have to deal with the idiosyncrasies that is airport security. I wouldn't be surprised if folks who have those luggage tags on which the 4th Amendment is written get a bit of extra screening. There's a time and a place for dissent, and the airport is not one of them.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 23):
Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question: Since so many Americans seem to hide behind the constitution and by all account, most don't understand it, my question is: is it taught in any capacity in school? Are Americans given any education on what it means or do they just hear things here and there and twist it to suit their own means?

In junior high and high school, I seem to recall discussing it a bit, but not in any real depth. My college American History class covered the US Consitution over a period of 2 sessions. Really didn't get too deep.

[Edited 2012-08-29 14:26:51 by srbmod]
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dc9northwest
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:50 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 31):
Airport/aviation security is not a joking matter. Remember the guy several years ago that got detained by TSA agents because he wrote "Kip Hawley Is An Idiot" on a ziplock bag in protest of the TSA? If you want to be critical of the TSA, don't use the airport security lines as your soapbox. The vast majority of us are not thrilled with the TSA either, but we grin and bear it, as we know that in order to fly somewhere, we have to deal with the idiosyncrasies that is airport security. I wouldn't be surprised if folks who have those luggage tags on which the 4th Amendment is written get a bit of extra screening. There's a time and a place for dissent, and the airport is not one of them.

I have to agree, I dislike the TSA but I never display that at the airport. I am nice towards them, it's just their job; that doesn't mean they're bad people. Now, could they be better trained? Yes. Could their rules be less stupid? Oh, certainly. But, protest all you want while at the airport, nothing's gonna get changed on the spot... Now, trying to change something via the legislative process is a noble endeavour, but it takes time and patience.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:35 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 9):
To me that has nothing to do with the USA. As someone else said yesterday (I think it was PanHam) I fully agree, if I would have to sit next to this guy I would ask the stewardess the give me another seat.

Nope. I would sit beside him, but I would watch him like a hawk and if he did anything suspicious, he would be in an armlock.

Jan
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flymia
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 6):
It's no different than approaching the Police while wearing a T-shirt reading "f**k the police" and not expecting trouble.


Completely different, a police officer is a state actor (the government) the airline captain and delta are not. They can do whatever they want.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
You bet it is, this is not what America stands for, sometimes freedom is expressed in ways other people don't like, but the freedom to express your opinions is protected by the Constitution. Unless the guy endangered himself or someone else, there was no reason to keep him from flying.
Quoting hypercott (Reply 7):
The essence of free speech is that you should not have to expect any trouble by *passively* wearing such a T-shirt. No matter what or where or when you wear it. Period. It's the law, the constitutional law.


As stated before the constitution does not protect you from private actors. If someone wanted to start an airline that only allowed White Men ages 30-60 to purchase tickets on their airline they are free to do so. The constitution protects you from the government not private people. Now different state laws and federal discrimination laws you might have another issue but not a constitutional one.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 23):
Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question: Since so many Americans seem to hide behind the constitution and by all account, most don't understand it, my question is: is it taught in any capacity in school? Are Americans given any education on what it means or do they just hear things here and there and twist it to suit their own means?


Yes but not enough. I remember going over it in 8th grade 13 years old and again when I was 16 I think. Being in law school now I am obviously taught it very well but before law school it was not taught to the degree it should be.

This guy was an idiot, he want this to happen but he probably wanted the TSA to do it so he could get on CNN and complain about his rights and sue. Thankfully TSA did the right thing and the Captain gave the guy what he deserves.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
StarAC17
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
Just like a restaurant can have a no shoes, no shirt,, no service policy, a private business can have rules of conduct and decorum for its customers. A business has a right to refuse service if it thinks allowing it will adversely affect other customers.

Didn't WN throw off women who were dressed in skimpy outfits, I would have much preferred sitting next to them  .

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
I'm all for free speech...but just as some places require a suit and tie for service, Delta requires shirts that don't say bomb, terrorist and gonna kill us all.

As said it has nothing to do with free speech here. This is like calling your boss a F*ckwit and then suing because you got sacked.

Free speech only applies to the fact that the government can't prosecute you for what you say and even that has some limits. You can't openly threaten a head of state and not have someone from the government pay you a little visit.

Quoting flymia (Reply 36):
This guy was an idiot, he want this to happen but he probably wanted the TSA to do it so he could get on CNN and complain about his rights and sue.

If he does then I hope a judge just laughs at him and orders him to pay DL's legal fees.
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Aesma
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:04 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 21):
Think it would be better said...A lot of Americans have no idea what it is to loose Free Speech.

A lot of Americans seem to think free speech is an universal notion, well, in the form it has in the US, it's unique. And we non US citizens with a little less freedom don't feel persecuted as a result.
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aa757first
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:36 am

This is clearly an overreaction, but I agree with Delta's right to exclude passengers from their flights at their own discretion for valid reasons. I'm concerned however, that this was at least partially racially motivated. I assume Arjit is brown and I'm wondering if a John or Brian would be a) asked to remove the shirt, or b) be denied boarding even after he changed the shirt.

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 8):
Oh really? Okay, on your next flight yell out "bomb!", and then claim you were executing your right to free speech. When you get out of jail in 20 years time, come back here and tell us how that worked out.

This is a straw man argument. If I, or any other reasonable person, heard someone scream "bomb!" I would think that there's a bomb nearby. If someone wore this shit, I'd think they were protesting the TSA.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 11):
He looked for trouble or at least some sort of attention and got what he was looking for.

It's difficult to protest without causing some trouble. That doesn't mean protesting is wrong.



Quoting flymia (Reply 36):
Completely different, a police officer is a state actor (the government) the airline captain and delta are not. They can do whatever they want.

That's not true. There are still regulations that restrict Delta's behavior.

[Edited 2012-08-29 14:27:44 by srbmod]
 
Hywel
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:59 pm

I'm gonna buy this t-shirt. Although I'll never try wearing it for a flight, just when I'm around the house etc.
 
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:04 pm

We have free speech as long as you don't insult the intelligence community, the police (especially NYPD), the TSA, the IRS... because we might all be terrorists. Our government, a user of a great deal of explosives and ammunition, is not suspected of terror. It is qualified to judge us without oversight and without recourse.   
 
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:28 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 36):
If someone wanted to start an airline that only allowed White Men ages 30-60 to purchase tickets on their airline they are free to do so.

While it is off-topic and probably not the place to get in to this, that's almost assuredly not true both because of Delta's status as a common carrier and because the civil rights statutes prohibit it.
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
While it is off-topic and probably not the place to get in to this, that's almost assuredly not true both because of Delta's status as a common carrier and because the civil rights statutes prohibit it.

Bingo.

Also, the captain does have "final authority" to deny boarding on his airplane, but that doesn't mean he can't be held responsible for that decision if it's wrong. Just ask the Frontier pilot who cost his company thousands of dollars in fines because he kicked someone off in violation of the ACAA.

I'm still disturbed that there are people who support making airports and airplanes "special zones" where normal rights don't apply.
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):

I'm still disturbed that there are people who support making airports and airplanes "special zones" where normal rights don't apply.

If you don't like it, drive or take the bus. Airlines are privately owned and operated companies and like any privately owned and operated establishment, they have rules in which they expect passengers to abide by. If you were causing a disturbance at a restaurant or movie theater and it was upsetting other patrons, those establishments have every right to remove you from the premises even if said establishment was in a public building. Airports while publicly owned facilities in most cases, are restricted facilities that only those who are ticketed passengers or are employed by businesses that operate there can access points beyond the security check point. If you want to use the sterile areas, including the security checkpoints one has to go through in order to access the sterile areas, don't use them as a soapbox to protest the TSA. One would not wear a t-shirt that says "I hate cops" or "Bad Cop, No Doughnut" when entering a courthouse (Just like at an airport, you have to go through security screening in order to access the courthouse.) as they would not allow you to even enter the building with such a shirt.

There are limits to free speech and places like an airport are one of those places where such limits are there for the safety and protection of the traveling public as well as those who work at the airport.
 
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):
I'm still disturbed that there are people who support making airports and airplanes "special zones" where normal rights don't apply.

If I'm the Captain - or a DL Supervisor - my position to Mr. Guha is a simple one; you don't have the right to make the other 149 customers aboard my aircraft uncomfortable. If you insist on wearing it as a condition of traveling with us, I'll have to ask you to take your business elsewhere.

But since Mr. Guha felt his "right" to wear that shirt trumped all others' rights - including the right of DL to refuse service to a customer who was, at that point, being unreasonable - that's what led to this totally avoidable situation. And it was all Mr. Guha's creation, because he wanted everyone to see how clever he was for wearing that shirt.
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:03 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 41):
If you don't like it, drive or take the bus

And what shall I do when those pesky little rules get expanded to the bus and train system?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 41):
Airlines are privately owned and operated companies and like any privately owned and operated establishment, they have rules in which they expect passengers to abide by. If you were causing a disturbance at a restaurant or movie theater and it was upsetting other patrons, those establishments have every right to remove you from the premises even if said establishment was in a public building.

Yes, but once you agree to leave, they can't call over the TSA and the police to search your belongings. That is my major beef: that in this case, he was aggressively searched and questioned.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 41):
One would not wear a t-shirt that says "I hate cops" or "Bad Cop, No Doughnut" when entering a courthouse (Just like at an airport, you have to go through security screening in order to access the courthouse.) as they would not allow you to even enter the building with such a shirt.

They most certainly would allow you to enter the building. The judge could order you to cover the shirt up (which is a different issue altogether) or hold you in contempt, but security cannot keep you from entering the building.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 41):
There are limits to free speech and places like an airport are one of those places where such limits are there for the safety and protection of the traveling public

Please explain how the t-shirt in question threatens the safety of the traveling public. Feeling uncomfortable is not a safety issue.

Again, while I can support the right of the airline to refuse transport (even if I do not agree with the decision itself), the government should not be able to do the same, and in fact, is prohibited from doing the same without a legitimate interest. IMO, protecting people from being uncomfortable because of a satirical, non-threatening statement is not a legitimate interest.
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
Quoting srbmod (Reply 41):If you don't like it, drive or take the bus
And what shall I do when those pesky little rules get expanded to the bus and train system?

They can't if those bus lines or train lines are publicly owned.

If they're privately-owned, however you're up the same creek.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
That is my major beef: that in this case, he was aggressively searched and questioned.

  

If this has been your "major beef" you sure have kept that part to yourself for quite awhile. All this time you keep going on about how "It's just a friggin' shirt" and that we should all "just get over it." Only now do you seem to make an issue of this search and question point, so forgive me if I call bullshit on this one.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
Feeling uncomfortable is not a safety issue.

No, but it's a customer service issue, and as Delta Air Lines is in the business of customer service....

Well, you get the point. Game, Set, Match. Delta wins, the attention-whore with the t-shirt loses.
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
Again, while I can support the right of the airline to refuse transport (even if I do not agree with the decision itself), the government should not be able to do the same, and in fact, is prohibited from doing the same without a legitimate interest. IMO, protecting people from being uncomfortable because of a satirical, non-threatening statement is not a legitimate interest.

Non threatening? Not everyone can clearly see sarcasm and parody, especially from a distance. There is a time and a place for civil disobedience and an airport is not an appropriate venue. Delta made the right decision, and this guy will hopefully remember to not pack his brain in his luggage.
 
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 44):
They can't if those bus lines or train lines are publicly owned.

If they're privately-owned, however you're up the same creek.

AFAIK, all long-distance buses are privately owned, and intercity rail travel in the US is practically nonexistent outside of the NE, California, and Chicago.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 44):


If this has been your "major beef" you sure have kept that part to yourself for quite awhile. All this time you keep going on about how "It's just a friggin' shirt" and that we should all "just get over it." Only now do you seem to make an issue of this search and question point, so forgive me if I call bullshit on this one.

You're right; I should have said it sooner. As it is, I have a hard enough time convincing people to grow some skin over a non-threatening t-shirt. I fear the responses if I dare question actual authority.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 44):
No, but it's a customer service issue, and as Delta Air Lines is in the business of customer service....

Ah, but it was demanded that he (and his wife) submit through multiple extra screenings and interrogations. How is that "customer service"?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 45):
Non threatening? Not everyone can clearly see sarcasm and parody, especially from a distance.

Irrelevant. Again, the government cannot punish you for non-threatening political speech. And the standard for "threatening" is higher than just people being "uncomfortable" or misunderstanding.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 45):
There is a time and a place for civil disobedience and an airport is not an appropriate venue

Um, you might wanna recheck your definition of "civil disobedience" (protip: civil disobedience involves disobeying a law in a nonviolent fashion), which this case wasn't. It was protected speech, and completely legal.
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:21 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 44):
No, but it's a customer service issue, and as Delta Air Lines is in the business of customer service....

Ah, but it was demanded that he (and his wife) submit through multiple extra screenings and interrogations. How is that "customer service"?

That was customer service, for the many other customers who were clearly uncomfortable with this man and made a point of telling Delta of their concerns. At that point, Delta elected to use what resources they had at their disposal (TSA) for secondary screening to better assess the customer and determine his intent, as they didn't know if he was actually a threat, or just a schmuck with a "yay, look at me!" agenda.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
Quoting srbmod (Reply 45):
Non threatening? Not everyone can clearly see sarcasm and parody, especially from a distance.

Irrelevant. Again, the government cannot punish you for non-threatening political speech.

And again, "the government" didn't punish him. Delta did.

Just own up to it already; you obviously enjoy the fact that this guy intentionally tried to push boundaries. The fact that he intentionally did this is indisputable; if he didn't, he wouldn't have chosen the other - ahem - interesting shirt choice he made for his subsequent flight later on after being denied boarding.

At the end of day this comes down to one thing; if you enjoy thumbing your nose at "the rules," you're probably cheering this guy on. If on the other hand you understand that in many cases, rules exist for a reason, you're probably backing Delta for not allowing this character to get away with his attention-whore antics.

Personally, I hope Delta has banned this jackass from their planes for life.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Maverick623
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:45 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):
That was customer service, for the many other customers who were clearly uncomfortable with this man and made a point of telling Delta of their concerns.

Please cite where any passengers made any comments to anybody about the shirt.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):
Just own up to it already; you obviously enjoy the fact that this guy intentionally tried to push boundaries.

Yep. It's no secret that I think those "boundaries" (which are not boundaries at all, as they are clearly lacking a definition) are made by either people too scared to function properly in public, or by people who have ulterior motives. The latter rely on the former to help them control those who dare speak out against such a system.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):
At the end of day this comes down to one thing; if you enjoy thumbing your nose at "the rules," you're probably cheering this guy on. If on the other hand you understand that in many cases, rules exist for a reason, you're probably backing Delta for not allowing this character to get away with his attention-whore antics.

Please explain the reason why there's supposedly a rule you can't wear a shirt mocking the TSA?

Also, I enforce rules daily, including security rules meant to actually keep people from dying (as well as everything from weight and balance, to reporting loose brakes on bag tugs). So forgive me if I don't seem to care for bullshit rules that serve no other purpose than to control what people wear because it might offend someone.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):

Personally, I hope Delta has banned this jackass from their planes for life.

Over a t-shirt that was removed on request. My point has been made.
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RE: Man Kicked Off Flight For Wearing Anti-TSA Shirt

Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:51 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 48):
Over a t-shirt that was removed on request. My point has been made.

Yeah, "over a t-shirt that was removed on request"

Why even push the boundaries with the authorities ?

The guy's a twat, and was looking for trouble !

Why cant you see that, everyone else can ?
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