BestWestern
Posts: 7079
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:43 am

Lance Armstrong has decided to stop fighting the USADA campaign against him, and has released the following statement.


There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For
me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair
advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999. Over the past three years, I have
been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's
unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our
foundation and on me leads me to where I am today - finished with this nonsense.
I had hoped that a federal court would stop USADA's charade. Although the court was
sympathetic to my concerns and recognized the many improprieties and deficiencies in
USADA's motives, its conduct, and its process, the court ultimately decided that it could
not intervene.

If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process, I could confront
these allegations in a fair setting and - once and for all - put these charges to rest, I
would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided
and unfair. Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to
support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the
hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around
the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine.
Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end,
USADA will not stand by it?

From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or
cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet
USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As
respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks
jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling
have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in
USADA's improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by
USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are
made without authority. And as many others, including USADA's own arbitrators, have
found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the
law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade
USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully,
threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions
its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers' expense. For the last two months,
USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules,
applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top
of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own
rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today.
The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and
USADA when I raced. The idea that athletes can be convicted today without positive A
and B samples, under the same rules and procedures that apply to athletes with
positive tests, perverts the system and creates a process where any begrudged exteammate
can open a USADA case out of spite or for personal gain or a cheating cyclist
can cut a sweetheart deal for themselves. It's an unfair approach, applied selectively, in
opposition to all the rules. It's just not right.

USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip
my seven Tour de France titles. I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates
know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won
those seven Tours. We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the
same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront.
There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same
rules. The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever
change that. Especially not Travis Tygart.

Today I turn the page. I will no longer address this issue, regardless of the
circumstances. I will commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single
Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in
underserved communities. This October, my Foundation will celebrate 15 years of
service to cancer survivors and the milestone of raising nearly $500 million. We have a
lot of work to do and I'm looking forward to an end to this pointless distraction. I have a
responsibility to all those who have stepped forward to devote their time and energy to
the cancer cause. I will not stop fighting for that mission. Going forward, I am going to
devote myself to raising my five beautiful (and energetic) kids, fighting cancer, and
attempting to be the fittest 40-year old on the planet.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 2955
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:18 am

http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/...nce-enhancing-drugs-cycling-career

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mor...ng-agency/?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a0

An innocent man would not give up like this. His reputation, endorsements, financial support for his foundation, are all going to disappear. His career is over. And what the hell kind of message to his admirers is this ? When things get tough and beyond your control just give up ? That's not the attitude that he had while fighting cancer...

Maybe there WAS something he didn't want discovered during this investigation. So many other prominent bicyclists have been caught doping over the years that the sport is already damaged beyond recognition....

[Edited 2012-08-23 21:21:19]
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
Lance Armstrong

A man known as a colossal jerk whose reputation and legacy has been built almost entirely on his ability to cheat successfully.

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to
support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the
hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors.

All that means is that Armstrong is a step ahead of testing. Testing will always be trying to catch up with the chemists.

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates
know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won
those seven Tours. We all raced together.

To be fair, a lot of the competitors were probably cheating as well.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:29 am

In other words, Armstrong has been found to have been doping during his cycling career and consequently has been stripped of all his Tour de France titles, on top of a lifelong competition ban.

The slightly less heroic version.

It's not even that easy putting all the blame on him – he was competing with others who had doped as well; It would have been exceedingly unlikely that he'd actually won seven times against a field of notorious dopers all around. That is almost inconceivable, even apart from the mounting evidence.

It is somewhat tragic on various levels, but the whiny tone has never suited any of his doped predecessors either.

Cycling is crashing down even further than it had before. It may be best to just give it up and call it a day. This sport has been completely destroyed by a doping arms race in which Armstrong was only one of the major exponents, not by any means a truly exceptional offender.

He would be better off if he rethought his approach there and faced his own reality instead of continuing the obvious denial. Maybe there is a shred of personal integrity left for being salvaged somewhere, but given that statement I'm not getting my hopes up.
 
Quokkas
Posts: 1327
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:51 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
A man known as a colossal jerk whose reputation and legacy has been built almost entirely on his ability to cheat successfully.

And the evidence you have is....?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
All that means is that Armstrong is a step ahead of testing.

Again, the evidence you have is...?

I don't know one way or the other but perhaps this is the reason why Armstrong chucked in the towel. It doesn't matter what the results show, there will be those who cast aspersions and feed the cancer of suspicion, while inventing reasons for not having any evidence. Whatever happened to the notion innocent until proven guilty?
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
And the evidence you have is....?

Ask a lot of people who have covered sports for any amount of time who the biggest jerk they've run into is and there's a good chance they'll say Lance Armstrong. Seems a lot of people would like to kick him in his ball.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
Again, the evidence you have is...?

How many drug tests have dopers passed before being caught? A positive test is proof of guilt, but a negative test is not proof of innocence. Sad but true.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
Whatever happened to the notion innocent until proven guilty?

Reality happened. And innocent until proven guilty only applies in court.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:51 am

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip
my seven Tour de France titles.

This strikes me as very odd that the USADA can do this, they don't govern cycling. I can see the ban but not stripping the titles.

This is key:

Quote:
Still to be heard from was the sport's governing body, the International Cycling Union, which had backed Armstrong's legal challenge to USADA's authority.
Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
An innocent man would not give up like this. His reputation, endorsements, financial support for his foundation, are all going to disappear. His career is over. And what the hell kind of message to his admirers is this ? When things get tough and beyond your control just give up ? That's not the attitude that he had while fighting cancer...

I think this behaviour is more common than people think it is. If he was going to go bankrupt fighting a charge which has no legal binding as in facing a judge what is the point as some will never be convinced. Many people who are innocent accept plea bargains because they still run the risk of being found guilty.

If he gets indicted like Marion Jones did then by all means strip the titles from him and throw him in jail. I am not sure what legal authority the USADA has.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:02 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
I don't know one way or the other but perhaps this is the reason why Armstrong chucked in the towel. It doesn't matter what the results show, there will be those who cast aspersions and feed the cancer of suspicion, while inventing reasons for not having any evidence.

That is nonsense and you know it. If he actually was innocent, there is absolutely no way in hell he would give up since starting today his reputation is completely and utterly ruined (at least what was left of it) while if he had actually been innocent there could be no accusation in the world causing even a tenth of the same devastation to him and to his family.

He has just realized that his lie is up and there is no realistic way out left for him to pretend his innocence any longer. He is finally caught at having been a cheat among cheats and all his high-brow pretenses were just part of the act, the same as with all the other cheats. At least a few of those had the guts to come out with the truth eventually. We'll see whether Armstrong has what it takes to come clean at long last. My guess? He'll keep on sulking for at least a few years.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
Whatever happened to the notion innocent until proven guilty?

It still applies. But the evidence – witness accounts and a mountain range of circumstances – leaves effectively no place for the assumption of his innocence any more.

Ironically all the other doping cheats having been uncovered over the years have left him standing in an ever more exposed position which became ever more implausible for a presumably "clean" athlete.
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 2955
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
I think this behaviour is more common than people think it is. If he was going to go bankrupt fighting a charge which has no legal binding as in facing a judge what is the point as some will never be convinced. Many people who are innocent accept plea bargains because they still run the risk of being found guilty.

Armstrong has amassed considerable wealth over the years so he could easily pay for his defense out of his own pocket. Not to mention that if he started a legal fund and asked his supporters for donations he could easily raise the several millions needed to pay for his defense.

This isn't a plea bargain. Its essentially throwing in the towel and committing suicide to avoid disgrace. USADA is basically claiming they have old samples that have been tested with new methods of detecting steroid use. Now if Armstrong never doped, then what would he have to fear ???
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 1999
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:07 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:25 am

I think he should keep his titles. He definitely didn't have an unfair advantage as most of the rest of the field was on the juice as well.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:59 am

I think it can be therapeutic for the entire sport (if one can really still call it that with a straight face) when they are forced to dig ever deeper down until they finally find someone who probably(!) wasn't doped – at least until a later check might still find something again...

All their "stars" have been exposed as cheats by now. At some point the sad remainder might actually be able to force some new insights, one could hope.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 11861
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:17 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):

I think this behaviour is more common than people think it is.

WAY more common, I'm sure. I've certainly experienced it plenty of times. In the end, some things just aren't worth fighting anymore. We weigh the pros and cons, make a decision, and don't look back (ok, we do look back, but whatever).

Quoting alberchico (Reply 8):
Armstrong has amassed considerable wealth over the years so he could easily pay for his defense out of his own pocket. Not to mention that if he started a legal fund and asked his supporters for donations he could easily raise the several millions needed to pay for his defense.

It's not always about money.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
An innocent man would not give up like this.

An innocent man who has 5 kids to take care of very well might.

I don't know if he doped, and to be honest, I don't care. But I can completely understand his wish to just be left alone and put this all behind him.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:40 am

Fun fact: This is the very first time he has actually been legally charged with doping. And he immediately throws in the towel and states that "enough is enough".

All those court cases in the last years were him suing journalists to stop writing about him, not anti-doping authorites going after him.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13502
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:16 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
If he actually was innocent, there is absolutely no way in hell he would give up

If he were tired of fighting and seeing his bank account depleted, sure he would - especially if there were no point in fighting just to save face. It's not like "losing" equals prison time.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 8):
Armstrong has amassed considerable wealth over the years so he could easily pay for his defense out of his own pocket

Yes, and by many accounts, his legal defense has depleted quite a bit of that wealth. And let's face it, he doesn't earn anywhere near the money he used to.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 8):
if he started a legal fund and asked his supporters for donations he could easily raise the several millions needed to pay for his defense.

Is that so? Many worthy charities have a hard enough time raising funds in these trying economic times; you think the "I want to clear my good name" fund will have an easy road?   

I'm not saying the guy is guilty or that the guy is innocent; frankly, I don't know, nor do I care. What I'm saying is that I CAN see where there would come a point where someone would choose to be pragmatic and just say, "Fuck this shit, I'm done with this," and give up the costly fight, and let the USADA or whatever the hell the governing body of cycling is have their pound of flesh and get on with his life.

[Edited 2012-08-24 03:19:03]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10022
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:28 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 9):
I think he should keep his titles. He definitely didn't have an unfair advantage as most of the rest of the field was on the juice as well.

Did Marion Jones get to keep her titles, nope they were stripped, no need for Lance to get special treatment is there?
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12427
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:43 am

One has to wonder if Armstrong's cancer was triggered by his use of performance enhancing drugs (PED's).

I think he just faced reality that to keep fighting will only make him look much worse, eat up more of his personal financial worth and eventually never win in the court of public opinion. He and several other top cyclists have all been caught doping, it is impossible to keep up with the more sophicated drugs and techniques racers have used over the years, often finding out a few years later when then testing and what to look for catches up.

I believe that major level cycling racing should be suspended for a year, especially the Tour de France or even totally ended. Sponsors need to withdraw all their support, governments need to say no to support of races especially considering the costs to taxpayers to hold them and the limited benefit of them.

Lance Armstrong will have as his obit opening 'he was a 7-time winner of the Tour de France, but lost all those titles for what was believe his doping in all of them'. What a sad legacy.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10022
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:52 am

So have the 7 titles actually been stripped from him?
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5393
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
So have the 7 titles actually been stripped from him?

According to CNN yes,
But then again, who will get the wins? and When will they be charged with doping?

It is all just a sad sad state of affairs.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
If he actually was innocent, there is absolutely no way in hell he would give up

If he were tired of fighting and seeing his bank account depleted, sure he would - especially if there were no point in fighting just to save face. It's not like "losing" equals prison time.

"Tired" from what if this is just the first actual case? Why fold at the first actual accusation already if he was actually innocent?

So far he was the one who filed suit after suit against others.

It's just cowardly taking the backdoor out because he knows he doesn't have a chance to beat the overwhelming evidence, simply because he has been doping like all the other top cyclists (he would not have been capable of keeping up with those otherwise).
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:06 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):

One has to wonder if Armstrong's cancer was triggered by his use of performance enhancing drugs (PED's).

That's the elephant in the room that people don't want to touch because proving it is impossible, but it is a matter of fact that especially in the 90's, cycling was so rotten that many medications were used that hadn't even completed clinical trials.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:32 am

1. Armstrong managed to ride in the 2009 Tour de France and come in third. You know there's no way he would've risked doping that year and he still managed to come in third even after taking three years off from competitive cycling.

2. The USADA does not conduct trials like a federal court and is not bound by judicial law or precedent. Going before a judicial panel of a bureaucracy is like a pilot fighting to defend his license during an NTSB hearing--it's not necessarily going to be fair to the accused and there is no worthwhile appeal if you lose.

3. He should've stayed retired.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10022
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:37 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 20):
1. Armstrong managed to ride in the 2009 Tour de France and come in third. You know there's no way he would've risked doping that year and he still managed to come in third even after taking three years off from competitive cycling.

My guess is the drugs that he used are so far undetectable, so he probably felt pretty confident doping in 2009.
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 1999
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:07 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:40 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
Did Marion Jones get to keep her titles, nope they were stripped, no need for Lance to get special treatment is there?

I was making an ironic statement. Of course I don't think he shuold keep his titles
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5393
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:59 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 21):
My guess is the drugs that he used are so far undetectable, so he probably felt pretty confident doping in 2009.

This pretty much can be summed up as no one is innocent, becase they are all dopers. You are basically implying everyone in every sport or job that has ever passed a drug test is covering it up.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13476
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
So have the 7 titles actually been stripped from him?

No, not yet. In all probability they will be though.

Despite what the USDA says, those titles are not theirs to give or take away. That decision rests with the ICU.
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...sp%3FMenuId%3DMTYzMDc%26LangId%3D1

Quote:
The UCI notes Lance Armstrong’s decision not to proceed to arbitration in the case that USADA has brought against him.

The UCI recognises that USADA is reported as saying that it will strip Mr. Armstrong of all results from 1998 onwards in addition to imposing a lifetime ban from participating in any sport which recognises the World Anti-Doping Code.

Article 8.3 of the WADC states that where no hearing occurs the Anti-Doping Organisation with results management responsibility shall submit to the parties concerned (Mr Armstrong, WADA and UCI) a reasoned decision explaining the action taken.

As USADA has claimed jurisdiction in the case the UCI expects that it will issue a reasoned decision in accordance with Article 8.3 of the Code.

Until such time as USADA delivers this decision the UCI has no further comment to make.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:20 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 20):

1. Armstrong managed to ride in the 2009 Tour de France and come in third. You know there's no way he would've risked doping that year and he still managed to come in third even after taking three years off from competitive cycling.

The USADA has blood samples from 2009 and 2010 that are consistent with drug use.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 20):
2. The USADA does not conduct trials like a federal court and is not bound by judicial law or precedent. Going before a judicial panel of a bureaucracy is like a pilot fighting to defend his license during an NTSB hearing--it's not necessarily going to be fair to the accused and there is no worthwhile appeal if you lose.

The USADA is subject to the WADA code, just like all national ADAs. An athlete competing in a WADA-sanctioned event has to personally sign that he accepts the WADA code. What Armstrong is doing is basically driving on a government-built road but disputing the government's authority to set a speed limit on that road.

And there very much is a worthwhile appeal's process. He can appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, and if he is unhappy with their ruling, he can use the Swiss legal system.

What he can't do is sue in Austin, Texas, because the world does not revolve around Lance Armstrong and the kind of courts he likes.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:26 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 24):
Despite what the USDA says, those titles are not theirs to give or take away. That decision rests with the ICU.
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...d%3D1

WADA has already said that the USADA has the authority to sentence Armstrong. If the UCI continues to try protecting their benefactor (Armstrong has made HUGE donations to the UCI), WADA will simply decertify the UCI and cycling will be the outcast among sports it deserves to be.
 
blink182
Posts: 5278
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates
know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won
those seven Tours.

Yep. Very true. Many of Armstrong's teammates and competitors were doping. Many of Armstrong's teammates even stated he was doping. Armstrong may have won those tours, but he didn't win them legally.

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
The only physical evidence here is the
hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around
the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine.
Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end,
USADA will not stand by it?

Perhaps because Armstrong neither stood by it nor pass with 'flying colors' as he claims? Fact is, a large number of his B samples tested positive over the years and all of his teammates were doping and said he did. These charges are not coming out of nowhere, and the fact that he is throwing in the towel like this, to me, is admission of guilt. Furthermore, the one Olympics that Armstrong competed in, in 1996, he was an average competitor. Notice that he never competed in another Olympics afterwards, even at the prime of his career when he should have handily won gold. Why? My hypothesis is that the Olympics is notorious on drug testing, and Armstrong wouldn't have stood a chance against the drug testers.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
A man known as a colossal jerk whose reputation and legacy has been built almost entirely on his ability to cheat successfully.

Yep. In a sport that has become notorious for doping, Armstrong never spoke out against the act; all he ever said was "I didn't do it."
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
us330
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
Lance Armstrong has decided to stop fighting the USADA campaign against him, and has released the following statement.

I was reading the statement, looking for the part where he says "I have never doped" or a sentence somewhere along those lines. A passage like that never appears--it's all about procedure and whether the USADA has jurisdiction. He doesn't refute any of the charges on its face.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
And the evidence you have is....?

Google it. It's pretty much an open secret that Lance Armstrong is a bit of a jerk. Just the other day Deadspin ran an open conversation with an anonymous sports PR handler who said that Lance Armstrong was one of the biggest jerks in sports and treats everyone around him like dirt.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 9):
I think he should keep his titles. He definitely didn't have an unfair advantage as most of the rest of the field was on the juice as well.

That is somewhat of a valid point/argument.
 
Flighty
Posts: 7721
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:00 pm

Armstrong's language is legalistic and includes weasel words. He knows he was doping. He just argues the rules do not specifically rule out what he was doing. The fact he had cancer actually may shield him from prohibitions on steroid or other therapies, at least in his mind.

Lance Armstrong's definition of doping is primarily base on who does these things and why. Since he is an ego-maniac, only Lance Armstrong would have the right to use all the therapies and drugs he did. In his mind, he's not guilty of doping, but other people would be.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5393
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 27):
the one Olympics that Armstrong competed in, in 1996, he was an average competitor.

He was in the 1992 and 2000 olympics. he had cancer in 1996
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9841
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
An innocent man would not give up like this. His reputation, endorsements, financial support for his foundation, are all going to disappear. His career is over. And what the hell kind of message to his admirers is this ? When things get tough and beyond your control just give up ? That's not the attitude that he had while fighting cancer..
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
All that means is that Armstrong is a step ahead of testing. Testing will always be trying to catch up with the chemists.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):

To be fair, a lot of the competitors were probably cheating as well.

No evidence whatsoever. As Lance said, he provided all the test samples required, and passed. That should be the end of all discussion.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
sw733
Posts: 5308
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
An innocent man would not give up like this.

Agreed

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
A man known as a colossal jerk

Agreed



Here's my thought - what does USADA have to gain by saying he is guilty of doping? Not much beyond getting their conclusions out there. What does Lance have to gain by saying his innocent of doping? Everything. I'm not saying that's a shut case right there, but it's definitely something that popped in to my head.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13476
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 26):
WADA has already said that the USADA has the authority to sentence Armstrong.

Yes, as a US citizen, Armstrong falls under the USDA's jurisdiction. They can fine and ban him. I don't believe they can take away his TdF titles, only the UCI can as it's their event.

Quoting racko (Reply 26):
If the UCI continues to try protecting their benefactor (Armstrong has made HUGE donations to the UCI), WADA will simply decertify the UCI

I don't think they can - what jurisdiction does WADA have over any sport's governing body?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Acheron
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting SW733 (Reply 32):
what does USADA have to gain by saying he is guilty of doping? Not much beyond getting their conclusions out there.

In theory, you could argue they are doing this to deter any future doper and stop them from thinking that if they perform like Armstrong, they'll get away with it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
No evidence whatsoever. As Lance said, he provided all the test samples required, and passed. That should be the end of all discussion.

When most of the people he beat during his wins were proven dopers, he somehow managed to do it while clean, specially since the his own team was filled with dopers as well?.

Yeah, right.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9841
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 34):
When most of the people he beat during his wins were proven dopers, he somehow managed to do it while clean, specially since the his own team was filled with dopers as well?.

Yeah, right.

You neglect the possibility that he could simply be a tremendous athlete. You mention the other dopers - how were they proven to be dopers? Did they undergo testing that was not administered to Armstrong?

Your "analysis" shows the painfully shallow thinking that stems from envy and jealousy that has come to infect various aspects of the world, including politics. "How could he do so well - he must have cheated". Guilt by success. Never mind that there is no evidence whatsoever, in a sport where they do more drug testing than in any other that I know of.

Unless someone can show a credible lab report that indicates he had a banned substance in his body, there can be no possible justifiable conclusion other than "innocent".
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 11861
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:26 pm

Again, I'll provide the disclaimer that I don't know whether he doped, and I don't care.

Quoting racko (Reply 19):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):

One has to wonder if Armstrong's cancer was triggered by his use of performance enhancing drugs (PED's).

That's the elephant in the room that people don't want to touch

It's also absolutely none of our business.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
You neglect the possibility that he could simply be a tremendous athlete.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
"How could he do so well - he must have cheated". Guilt by success.

It's unfortunate, isn't it? If ever there comes along a clean cyclist who decimates the field, he/she is never going to be able to simply enjoy his/her success.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 32):
Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
An innocent man would not give up like this.

Agreed

I still don't get this argument. Innocent people give up on things all the time.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
us330
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:28 pm

Deadspin points out something rather interesting: all seven of Lance Armstrong's tour de france titles would go to cyclists with doping scandals of their own.
http://deadspin.com/5937591/all-seve...-with-doping-scandals-of-their-own
 
mham001
Posts: 4287
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
His career is over.

It was already long over.

I think his point is, he no longer cares.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7079
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
Guilt by success. Never mind that there is no evidence whatsoever.

Like the young Chinese swimmer in the Olympics?


I want to believe that Armstrong is innocent. I just don't know.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 27):

Yep. In a sport that has become notorious for doping, Armstrong never spoke out against the act; all he ever said was "I didn't do it."
Quoting us330 (Reply 28):
I was reading the statement, looking for the part where he says "I have never doped" or a sentence somewhere along those lines. A passage like that never appears--it's all about procedure and whether the USADA has jurisdiction. He doesn't refute any of the charges on its face.

He's said it many times in the past.

Quote:
“If you consider my situation: a guy who comes back from arguably, you know, a death sentence, why would I then enter into a sport and dope myself up and risk my life again? That's crazy. I would never do that. No. No way.”

Frankly I don't care if he doped or not. All of his closest competitors, the only ones who could've beaten him were doping themselves. And he for seven years he dominated the field. It's still an amazing accomplishment.
 
Starbuk7
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:09 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:16 pm

So basically he has never popped positive on a drug test yet everyone is accusing him of doping. Even with all the witness statements they say they now have (from all the people he beat who are either jealous or just plain pissed that he beat them that many times in a row) I do not see how this can work.

I thought he has beaten this rap several times already? I know in the US if you are tried of a crime and found not guilty that can not take you to court again, so how can they keep raking him over the coals?

I can understand why he is tired of these continuing accusations.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
Did Marion Jones get to keep her titles, nope they were stripped, no need for Lance to get special treatment is there?

Marion Jones was convicted of a crime and admitted it, she was busted with BALCO.
She also voluntarily gave back the medals before they were stripped.

Quoting racko (Reply 25):
The USADA has blood samples from 2009 and 2010 that are consistent with drug use.

Then punish him for that, he won the tours between 1999 and 2005.

If we are going to retroactively go back and look at passed drug tests, can we go back to 1988 and give Ben Johnson his gold back because I think a lot of people think Carl Lewis was on the juice as well.



Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 41):
So basically he has never popped positive on a drug test yet everyone is accusing him of doping. Even with all the witness statements they say they now have (from all the people he beat who are either jealous or just plain pissed that he beat them that many times in a row) I do not see how this can work.
Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 41):
I thought he has beaten this rap several times already? I know in the US if you are tried of a crime and found not guilty that can not take you to court again, so how can they keep raking him over the coals?

This isn't a legal investigation, and he has tried to sue the USADA unsuccessfully about this and the case got thrown out. Also the ICU backs Armstrong.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):

You neglect the possibility that he could simply be a tremendous athlete. You mention the other dopers - how were they proven to be dopers?

  

Why do we even have competitive sport if we suspect everyone who is the best.

I do not suspect Usain Bolt of cheating because I think he is a naturally gifted person that makes him a better sprinter than everyone else and I have the same opinion with Michael Phelps.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Acheron
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
You neglect the possibility that he could simply be a tremendous athlete. You mention the other dopers - how were they proven to be dopers? Did they undergo testing that was not administered to Armstrong?

Or it could simple be a case of the substances being ahead of the test.

Bjarne Riis, 1996 TdF winner, accused multiple times of doping but never proved conclusively yet admitted in 2007 to have doped from 1993 to 1998 including the 1996 TdF win. His team mates also admitted they doped.

Floyd Landis also spent lots of time denying it just to end up admitting doping in the end

So yeah, not buying it.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7704
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
I don't know one way or the other bt perhaps this is the reason why Armstrong chucked in the towel. It doesn't matter what the results show, there will be those who cast aspersions and feed the cancer of suspicion, while inventing reasons for not having any evidence. Whatever happened to the notion innocent until proven guilty?

Innocent until proven guilty doesn't work if you throw the towel before the court date, then you're assuming guilt.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
That is nonsense and you know it. If he actually was innocent, there is absolutely no way in hell he would give up since starting today his reputation is completely and utterly ruined (at least what was left of it) while if he had actually been innocent there could be no accusation in the world causing even a tenth of the same devastation to him and to his family.

I think his reasoning is that doing this is actually less damaging to his reputation. Keep the martyr act up and his strong supporters will still support him.

[Edited 2012-08-24 13:16:25]
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 44):
Innocent until proven guilty doesn't work if you throw the towel before the court date, then you're assuming guilt.

It is the USADA that is doing this and this isn't being done in a courtroom.

If this went in front of a US Grand Jury or Congress where a judge is present and can assess the credibility of the witnesses and the case then you have a point where both parties are under oath.

IIRC the USADA is not subject to any of this.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
sbworcs
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
t's just cowardly taking the backdoor out because he knows he doesn't have a chance to beat the overwhelming evidence,

What overwhelming evidence? All I have read seems to be he said / she said and he had to be because they were etc. etc.

Quoting racko (Reply 25):
2010 that are consistent with drug use.

Consistent with does not mean he had used drugs?

Quoting blink182 (Reply 27):
and the fact that he is throwing in the towel like this, to me, is admission of guilt.

What could he do / have done to "prove" his innocence. In most cases it is up to the prosecution to prove you did something.

Whether he doped or not I do not know but I think some would still claim he doped regardless of what he said / did.
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9841
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 44):
Innocent until proven guilty doesn't work if you throw the towel before the court date, then you're assuming guilt.

When the prosecution keeps attacking you, in spite of having no evidence, at some point the accused will break, and either shoot up the prosecutor's office, or kill himself. That's why in the court system we have laws that are supposed to not allow such things to happen (such as double-jeopardy laws).

But this prosecution is outside the court system, so Armstrong has no such protections.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13502
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
"Tired" from what if this is just the first actual case? Why fold at the first actual accusation already if he was actually innocent?

USADA has been after him for many, many years, and this isn't the first accusation. He's been battling them in court and it has been taking a personal and financial toll on the man.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
It's just cowardly taking the backdoor out because he knows he doesn't have a chance to beat the overwhelming evidence

What "overwhelming evidence" is this, other than the supposed word of other admitted cheaters who may have an ax to grind?

Again, don't know if he's innocent or guilty, nor do I care. The point is, you and others are all too quick to jump to this presumption of guilt based on the fact he's giving up, saying an innocent man never would. That's bullshit. A smart man would if he knew caving in and saying, "You want me to admit I'm guilty of something I'm not? Fine, whatever - now go fuck yourselves," is the difference between going on with your life and not draining your bank account and carrying on a seemingly endless, fruitless legal battle that you lose in the long run, even if you win.

And Klaus, if Armstrong legally changed his name to the iLance and plastered an Apple logo on his forehead, you'd be telling everyone how wonderful he was...  
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Statement

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
As Lance said, he provided all the test samples required, and passed. That should be the end of all discussion.

No it shouldn't. A negative test isn't proof that one isn't doping, it's just a negative test.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], LittleFokker and 7 guests