Quokkas
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Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:53 am

Ruling that the mass killer is sane, Breitvik has been sentensed to the maximum 21 years cistody by a court in Norway.

This follows conflicting testimony from experts on Breitvik's mental state and capacity.

Breitvik himself wanted to be ruled sane so that his act could be seen as political and not simply an act of madness.

The prosecution had argued that he be ruled insane so that he could be held indefinitely. Guilt was never in doubt as Breitvik accepted what he had done and argued that it was "cruel but necessary."

The courts ruling allows for the 21 year period to be extended if it is deemed necessary.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-2...-verdict-on-breivik-sanity/4221236
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Klaus
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:31 am

As far as I'm aware he will remain in custody for life, beyond his prison term.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
The courts ruling allows for the 21 year period to be extended if it is deemed necessary

Only allows it to be extended in blocks of 5 years, plus Brevik will be elligible for parole in 10 years. Norway’s legal system is based on a strong tradition of belief in rehabilitation and the return of criminals to society, I have my doubts that Brevik will ever see 21 year in gaol. If he repents see the error of his ways he'll be out in 10.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:16 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
If he repents see the error of his ways he'll be out in 10.

That is kinda nuts .. a politically correct, warm fuzzy legal system that might see this whackjob back on the streets in the prime of life .. ready to do it all over again.

That is just as bad as the imprison without trial totaltarian regimes.

I can be critical of the legal system here in Aus and the sometimes inappropriate sentences handed out but I doubt Breivick would be treated like a jaywalker!
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Kiwirob
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 3):
That is kinda nuts .. a politically correct, warm fuzzy legal system that might see this whackjob back on the streets in the prime of life .. ready to do it all over again.

Norways justice system is crazy, the last major serial killer in this country, Arnfin Nesset, convicted of killing 22 people, although the authourities believe he may have killed 138 people was given 21 years like Brevik, he was allowed out after 12 years.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
I have my doubts that Brevik will ever see 21 year in gaol. If he repents see the error of his ways he'll be out in 10.

I don't think so. The law was changed so that someone can be kept in jail not just if he is a danger to society, but also for cases where society is a danger to the criminal. In other words, he can be kept in "protective custody" for as long as someone holds a grudge. That's gonna be a loooooong time! The law is nicknamed "Lex Breivik", which should give you a clue for whom the law was written!

I've only got a Dutch source on this:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/1...el_zeker_levenslang_Breivik__.html
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ltbewr
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:52 am

I think in large part this was a deal done to keep away from the public disclosing the terrible failures of the government and the police in preventing the initial and subsequent events of Breitvik. Even here in the USA, we have convicted killers who when they come up for parole under old and since changed laws the prisioner never gets out. I suspect Breitvik will never be free, that somehow the government of Norway will find some way to keep him in some kind of confinement at least to prevent him from being killed by the 'people'.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:46 am

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 5):
he can be kept in "protective custody" for as long as someone holds a grudge.

Not true a private individual can't hold a grudge and keep him in, it's up to the parole authourities to make the decision. The authourities may well take publis feeling into account, but that's not how the system works in Norway, if the authourities think you've repented and learn't you lesson you will be allowed out. They only way Brevik will remain in gaol for life is if he continues to believe in his manifest. You have to realise justice in Norway is all about making the criminal repent and bringing him back into society and a functioning individual, Norwegian justice couldn't give a crap about the victims.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:15 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
it's up to the parole authourities to make the decision. The authourities may well take publis feeling into account, but that's not how the system works in Norway,

Of course it is up to the parole officer to decide. But as mentioned the rules have changed. They no longer look ONLY if the convict (Breivik) is still a danger to society. The autorities now also look at how society is likely to respond to the convict upon release. If people are likely to try to hurt or kill Breivik when his time in prison is up, then Breivik can still be held in protective custody till the (perceived) threat is gone. This is a new law introduced June 22nd.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 8):
If people are likely to try to hurt or kill Breivik when his time in prison is up, then Breivik can still be held in protective custody till the (perceived) threat is gone.

That's not the way I've heard preventative detention explained, so long he he is no longer a danger to society he can come out, if someone kills him when he gets out, I doubt many woulkd shed a tear.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
I suspect Breitvik will never be free, that somehow the government of Norway will find some way to keep him in some kind of confinement at least to prevent him from being killed by the 'people'.

The sentence can be extended, and potentially indefinitely, if, after 21 years, he is considered to still pose a threat to society. Not so much for the reason you mention.

The possibility of being eligible for parole after 10 years probably only exists in theory in cases like this.

In the U.S., Breivik would face either death or life without parole. The main difference I see here is that those verdicts would basically tell the offender that the state doesn't care if he actually repents and - somehow - manages to become a respectable citizen. While the likelihood that this is going to happen is close to zero, the Norwegians at least don't *completely* rule it out.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
While the likelihood that this is going to happen is close to zero, the Norwegians at least don't *completely* rule it out.

They don't not rule it out because they expect the criminal to repent, be released and become a contributing member of society again.

As I pointed out above another Norwegian serial killer was sentenced to 21 years, he was let out in 12, IMO Nesset should have been kept in gaol for the full 21 year sentance but he apparently reformed and was no longer judged a danger to society. So whilst legal experts and talking heads are talking about Brevik remaining in gaol for the rest of his life a lot can happen between now and his first parole hearing or when his sentance is up in 21 years. This is Norway, strange things happen here, especially concerning crime and punishment.
 
AviRaider
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:37 pm

While I think Norway's justice sytem is noble in it's efforts to rehabilitate, it's obvious it was never set up to handle offenders of this kind. This is not justice for the 77 victims. He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:49 pm

Norwegian Containment

■ Containment may be imposed on dangerous offenders accountable when an ordinary temporary imprisonment is not considered sufficient to address social protection.
■ Containment scheme's purpose is primarily to protect society against new serious crime from the convicted person's side.
■ The reaction is the only punishment that is indefinite, but the court must still determine a timeframe for detention.
■ A Containment may be considered again when the detention period expires. If the court concludes that the recurrence risk is present, the frame can be extended by up to five years at a time.
■ There is no upper limit on Containment, so the punishment can last a lifetime.
■ Containment should be inserted in a prison or a department that is specifically designed for this.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):
He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.

No civilized country does that. Which in effect makes states like Texas uncivilized. Since that was never an option, it was never an option. 21 years is the maximum sentence. You can't change a legal system for one criminal, no matter how heinous.

Taking a life should not be a judiciary option. At most, it's a cost-cutting measure. The convicted murderer suffers more being deprived of liberty for 21 years than getting humanely executed.
 
cmf
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):
He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.

Is it? How does it help anyone? If you want him to be punished isn't life in jail much worse than being put to death? One stops the punishment.
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oldeuropean
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:59 pm

I can imagine that some inmates will let him have a special treatment.   
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HELyes
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.
Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Is it? How does it help anyone? If you want him to be punished isn't life in jail much worse than being put to death? One stops the punishment.


  

There is no death penalty in Norway, not in EU, not even in Russia.

Death penalty would make Breivik a martyr for the neo-nazis, his wet dream I guess.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):
Quoting cmf (Reply 15):

Recently, in BSL a man who killed his female friend was sentenced to 17 years in prison. He had a narcisstic personailty disorder, but was nevertheless held capable of being guilt. After the woman told him she didn't want to marry him, he stabbed her while she slept. He let her body lie on the bed, closed the bedroom, and for four days, he lived with the children of the woman, pretending everything to be normal.

17 years, and it is really scratching the upper limit for criminal sentences here. Breivik got 21 years.

I always think of the world and all its opportunities, getting to know friends, marrying, having children, flying by while you are in prison for such a long time. All the time, you're awake and you can't sleep years at a time, waking up at the day you'll be freed.

As a person who has found great joy in caring for other people, spending time with my friends and having a "live and let live" philosophy, I do not think of a 21-year prison sentence as being less harsh than being executed. After such a long time in detention, I would have lost all my connections to the current world. Science and technology will have advanced, job requirements will have changed. The things I loved and used to do can't be found again easily. The live of a crippled, so to say, a freedom one cannot call freedom.


As an alternative to capital punishment, I've always thought of servitude. For basic clothing, medical care, board and lodge provided by the government, the criminal would have to be at the service of the victims until the damage done is either fully restored, or he is pardoned by the victims.


David
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PPVRA
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 14):
No civilized country does that. Which in effect makes states like Texas uncivilized.
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 14):
The convicted murderer suffers more being deprived of liberty for 21 years than getting humanely executed.

You can't have it both ways. . .
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flyingturtle
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 16):
I can imagine that some inmates will let him have a special treatment.

He will be kept away from the other prisoners.

Some photographs, just click here: http://bazonline.ch/ausland/europa/2...den-Rest-des-Lebens/story/26168072

He'll get a three-room "cell". One with exercise equipment, a work room, a bedroom. Each one has 8 square meters or 86 square feet. It's reported that his laptop will have an offline version of the Wikipedia, and he's assumed to write books while in prison.


David
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Aesma
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Norways justice system is crazy

It's only crazy if it doesn't work. Norway is not known for its rampant criminality...
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OV735
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
I always think of the world and all its opportunities, getting to know friends, marrying, having children, flying by while you are in prison for such a long time. All the time, you're awake and you can't sleep years at a time, waking up at the day you'll be freed.

I doubt this looney will be thinking about these things while locked up. I really don't think this turd of a human being would have friends or anyone else to care for. Pointing a gun at a child and pulling the trigger, and doing it over and over again and then claiming it's for a good cause? Sorry, I just don't see how the court decided he was sane in the first place. Maybe they were examining a different case...?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 13):
■ A Containment may be considered again when the detention period expires. If the court concludes that the recurrence risk is present, the frame can be extended by up to five years at a time.
■ There is no upper limit on Containment, so the punishment can last a lifetime.

Strange law that is. Indefinite imprisonment? If you want to jail the guy for life, you should call it a life sentence. But inventing an ad-hoc law for quasi-officially detaining a certain person until death sounds similar to some African countries or the Guantanamo system. I wouldn't care if the man was thrown to the lions, but a trick like this from a country like Norway is surprising.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:14 pm

We also have a law like that in France since a few years, a lot of people do wonder how it passed constitutional muster. In fact a part of it was scrapped as it was retroactive and there was no way that could pass. So the worst offenders judged before that law can still be released after 23 years. The difference is that the new law mandates someone to be judged unfit for life in society, so after the prison sentence you get committed to a mental facility (built like a prison). In the opinion of many (including me) it really highlights a major problem of our system in that we judge people to have a medical condition but actually do nothing to help them.
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Mortyman
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 22):
Strange law that is. Indefinite imprisonment? If you want to jail the guy for life, you should call it a life sentence. But inventing an ad-hoc law for quasi-officially detaining a certain person until death sounds similar to some African countries or the Guantanamo system. I wouldn't care if the man was thrown to the lions, but a trick like this from a country like Norway is surprising.

Read more about it here:

http://www.ilafengsel.no/preventive_detension.html
 
NoUFO
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 22):
Strange law that is. Indefinite imprisonment? If you want to jail the guy for life, you should call it a life sentence. But inventing an ad-hoc law for quasi-officially detaining a certain person until death sounds similar to some African countries or the Guantanamo system.

Little correction: As I said above, life without parole would indicate that it does not matter to the state if a murderer surprisingly becomes a much better person that can be trusted to join the community. What Norwegians (as well as at least some other European countries) do is limit the sentence - in this case to 21 years - and then see every after five years if the offender still poses a threat to society. This is not a life sentence in disguise, although it can't be ruled out that Breivik is going to spend the rest of his life in prison.
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cmf
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 22):
Strange law that is. Indefinite imprisonment? If you want to jail the guy for life, you should call it a life sentence. But inventing an ad-hoc law for quasi-officially detaining a certain person until death sounds similar to some African countries or the Guantanamo system. I wouldn't care if the man was thrown to the lions, but a trick like this from a country like Norway is surprising.

I'm pretty sure this law have existed for many years already. It certainly existed at the time of the bombing/shooting.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
I'm pretty sure this law have existed for many years already. It certainly existed at the time of the bombing/shooting.

There were a number of threads about Breivik after the Oslo bombing/massacre that discussed this part of Norwegian law. Mortyman has been really good about educating non-Norwegians about the laws about how long people can be imprisoned in his country.

Although I don't agree with the sentence he received, it is the law of Norway and they have every right to punish/rehabilitate criminals their own way as a sovereign nation. I'm not saying this to disagree with you, I'm don't. Time Magazine had a good article that pre-dates the shootings that gives a good overview of the Norwegian prison system:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html

It's an interesting read for those not from Norway that are unfamiliar with their system. This case may be one of the very rare cases where someone is not allowed to be released from prison in Norway. I could be wrong but I think 1946 might be the last time someone was executed in Norway for any crime, at that time I believe it was for treason during the Nazi occupation. Although, it's not unheard of for murderers to be released after a short prison sentence there. But, you could get drunk and kill someone in a car here in the US and only do 2 years. I think it's all relative.

Unfortunately, Breivik got what he wanted. In his mind he made a political statement and is considered sane. Thanks again Morty for contributing to this topic.
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OV735
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 24):
Quoting cmf (Reply 26):

Thanks for the heads-up about the law having been made years before Breivik snapped.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
Little correction: As I said above, life without parole would indicate that it does not matter to the state if a murderer surprisingly becomes a much better person that can be trusted to join the community. What Norwegians (as well as at least some other European countries) do is limit the sentence - in this case to 21 years - and then see every after five years if the offender still poses a threat to society. This is not a life sentence in disguise, although it can't be ruled out that Breivik is going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

I agree regarding life without parole, however I didn't mention the 'no parole' portion myself. Quite the opposite - in some cases the convict may find whatever pieces of humanity in him/her that were previously hidden and become a genuinely 'better person' - thus keeping the possibility for parole is essential for a fair sentence. Still, in my opinion, one should expect the worst from a murderer and if he/she performs better than one expected, then one should revise the sentence accordingly.

What still confuses me, is how did the court come to the conclusion that this man is sane. Even "I did it for fun" sounds more sane than "I did it because they would eventually grow up and might do the things I don't want them to do". Neither does dressing up like the monarch and planning to become the master of the universe seem like something a 40-year-old in his right mind would do.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 22):
looney
Quoting OV735 (Reply 22):
turd of a human

I don't agree with your words here. He has surely lost the touch with reality, but there is no reason not to give him a honest chance to repent and reform. And to declare him sane is actually helping both the victims and Mr. Breivik himself.

A declaration of insanity would have shrouded his personality under a psychiatric diagnosis. There's a difference between "he's just a crazy loon" and somebody who, albeit in the scariest words possible, rationally explains why 77 people had to die. I prefer the latter.

If he uses the 21 years to brood on the "injustice" that is inflicted upon *him*, let him do that. If he feels like a martyr, that's OK too. But to the average guy, a prison sentence is devastating and sobering. We should keep that in mind.


David
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canoecarrier
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 29):
If he uses the 21 years to brood on the "injustice" that is inflicted upon *him*, let him do that. If he feels like a martyr, that's OK too. But to the average guy, a prison sentence is devastating and sobering. We should keep that in mind.

So, can he write books about his political views while in prison? He obviously considers himself a martyr for his cause. Just curious, even Hitler wrote Mien Kampf while in prison.
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NoUFO
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 28):
What still confuses me, is how did the court come to the conclusion that this man is sane. Even "I did it for fun" sounds more sane than "I did it because they would eventually grow up and might do the things I don't want them to do".

I understand what you mean, but I think the definition "sane" is: he can be held liable for what he did.
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Quokkas
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:01 am

Quoting OV735 (Reply 28):
how did the court come to the conclusion that this man is sane

There were two assessments done with the first deeming him to be suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, mainly through an argument that he had clumsily applied crude interpretations of right-wing propaganda and computer games. But a second report looked at his political associations, as well as his behaviour in jail, and said that at most he was exhibiting signs of a personality disorder but was sane.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
the definition "sane" is: he can be held liable for what he did.

True. I also think that his being defined as sane is important for another reason. From the very outset there was an attempt to depoliticize what he had done. Reading through Breivik's Manifesto you can clearly see that he copied and pasted much of it from right-wing ideologues, all of whom were at pains to separate themselves from him after the murders. Similarly, in contrast to much reporting that involves any incident involving a Muslim extends responsibility to all Muslims, his references to "preserving Christian heritage" were pointedly separated from Christian believes and quickly forgotten.

We have seen posters on A.net advocate sinking boats and shooting refugees in the water as a means of combating immigration, and nuking the entire Middle East to combat terrorism, so it is clear that Breivik is not alone in his thoughts. Dismissing him as insane or a lone madmen would have allowed the spotlight to be taken off the ideas that he shared with the far right and some of the not so far right.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:17 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 30):
So, can he write books about his political views while in prison? He obviously considers himself a martyr for his cause. Just curious, even Hitler wrote Mien Kampf while in prison.

Hitler wasn't in a (real) prison. He was under "Festungshaft", a prison sentence which wasn't meant to take away the prisoner's honor and dignity. Prisoners were loosely guarded, could receive visits and were allowed to drink alcohol. After 1900, prisoners were even allowed to take vacation from the prison - though the time away didn't count as prison time.

The people getting Festungshaft sentences were most often members of the high society, duellants and military officers.

I'm glad prisoners are able to write books. We're a free society. And I don't think his works will fall on a fertile ground. In the 1920ies and 1930ies, we had mass unemployment. In Germany, communists and fascists fought about controlling the country.


I'd like to write more, but off I go to the a.net meeting... 


David
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Pyrex
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):

While I think Norway's justice sytem is noble in it's efforts to rehabilitate

Nope, just whipped. Totally missing the point of a criminal justice system. First and foremost, the judicial system exists to PUNISH - it was created to prevent people from taking justice into their own hands, because people, rightly, realized having everyone take matters into their own hands was probably not a very good idea. For the system to be effective, the punishment has to fit the crime - if victims cannot ever feel justice is served, and criminals think their downside is limited, society breaks down. That is what is happening in South Africa and parts of Brazil, and is increasingly happening in Europe. The whole point about "rehabilitation" was just made up by the Moral Relativists in charge who cannot bring themselves to admit there is such a thing as right and wrong.

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):
it's obvious it was never set up to handle offenders of this kind. This is not justice for the 77 victims. He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.

Exactly. The thing about the death penalty is, it should not be used as a standard measure, but there are certain crimes that are so horrible in nature that, quite honestly, it is the only humane penalty, as what he criminal would actually deserve is far worse. If the point of a justice system is to punish, and the punishment must fit the crime for victims to feel justice has been served, Breivik should not be put to death, he should be strapped to a chair for the rest of his life with "Clockwork Orange"-type frames keeping his eyelids open while a screen shows images of the dead bodies of the kids he gunned down on continuous loop.

Maybe the death penalty should only apply to crimes that are so horrible that lawmakers cannot even foresee them when making the laws, but you know them when you (unfortunately) witness them. In that case, maybe it shouldn't be on the books, but it should definitely be applied in cases like this.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):

It's only crazy if it doesn't work. Norway is not known for its rampant criminality...

Amongst ethnic Norwegians, the problem is immigrants who commit the vast majority of crimes and are filling up prisons, they see Norwegian justice as soft, which it is. The Norwegian system also likes declaring people insane, there are a lot of people institutionalised in Norway who should be in gaol.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:19 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 34):
That is what is happening in South Africa and parts of Brazil, and is increasingly happening in Europe. The whole point about "rehabilitation" was just made up by the Moral Relativists in charge who cannot bring themselves to admit there is such a thing as right and wrong.

The US has the death penalty (fine, I know, at the state level, and only some states) and it's a good few times more dangerous than Europe. There has been research done which concluded the death penalty does not act as a deterrent to criminality.

If you compare South Africa and Brazil with Europe in criminality, you can't be taken seriously. It's not the same thing.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 34):
if victims cannot ever feel justice is served

The victims cannot feel anything when they're dead.


The death penalty is a medieval device, where the punished were expected to burn in hell for the rest of eternity. Torture is also a medieval device. Luckily Norway is in 2012, not in 1500.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 36):
The US has the death penalty (fine, I know, at the state level, and only some states)

33 states currently have the death penalty on the books (although a few of them I believe have de facto abolished it), plus the federal government still has it (the last person executed by the Feds was Tim McVeigh).

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 36):
There has been research done which concluded the death penalty does not act as a deterrent to criminality.

And I would doubt most supporters of the death penalty would view it as such. Personally, I see it as a means to permanently remove someone whose continued existence poses a permanent threat to people's lives.

Hence why I would support invoking the death penalty for those convicted of attempted murder (in the same way I support it for those whose victims actually die, which is to say scale it way back to slam-dunk cases).

Either way (capital punishment or not), I feel the penalties for attempted and actual homicide be the same, because it should be the intent that should be punished, not just the outcome.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:38 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
33 states currently have the death penalty on the books (although a few of them I believe have de facto abolished it), plus the federal government still has it (the last person executed by the Feds was Tim McVeigh).

As far as I know there's a moratorium by the Federal government on the death penalty, so they won't put anyone on Death Row for now.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
Personally, I see it as a means to permanently remove someone whose continued existence poses a permanent threat to people's lives.

I don't see that being different than life without the possibility of parole. Prison escape are quite rare all things considered. However, if you kill someone, it's all over. Life imprisonment permits someone to spend all their life contemplating what they've done.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
Either way (capital punishment or not), I feel the penalties for attempted and actual homicide be the same, because it should be the intent that should be punished, not just the outcome.

That sounds fair to me.

I'm not saying Breivik doesn't deserve a harsh sentence... I just don't think any country should have the right to take people's lives.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:56 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 38):
As far as I know there's a moratorium by the Federal government on the death penalty,

Nope. There are about 50 people currently on federal death-row (the last was actually executed in 2003), and there's talk of Nadal Hassan (the Ft Hood shooter) and possibly another soldier (who killed some of his fellow soldiers in Iraq) being the first military executions since the 1960s.

But there is no official moratorium by the Feds.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 38):
I don't see that being different than life without the possibility of parole.

At the risk of sounding callous (and being called worse), it's cheaper and safer.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 38):

I'm not saying Breivik doesn't deserve a harsh sentence... I just don't think any country should have the right to take people's lives.

And I fully respect that view.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
ltbewr
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:35 am

I wonder if in Europe, with growing unrest due to economic problems, modern media sensationalism of major criminal events, terrorism events, the rise of more 'conservative/law and order' politics, countries and the EC overall will consider 'life without parole' sentences for mass and serial murders as well as for extraordinary and extreme crimes. In the USA, as we saw a rise in crime in the 1960's to the 1990's as well as some well known criminals seem to get insufficient sentences and politicians using the situation for a 'war on crime', we saw an end of parole for many serious crimes, longer sentences, 'three-strikes' sentencing for those that have committed multiple felony crimes and tougher prison conditions.

Breitvik may become the example used by many in Norway and the EC to demand life sentences with strict parole and tougher imprisonment conditions.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 20):
He will be kept away from the other prisoners.

What? At the very least, part of his punishment should be that he has to share a cell with a prisoner who is Muslim.

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 12):
He is needs to be put to death, sorry if that doesn't sit well some of you but that's the only punishment to fit this crime.
Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Is it? How does it help anyone? If you want him to be punished isn't life in jail much worse than being put to death? One stops the punishment.

For the families of the victims, putting him to death 100 times wouldn't be enough, but that is the nature of vengeance.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 34):
The whole point about "rehabilitation" was just made up by the Moral Relativists in charge who cannot bring themselves to admit there is such a thing as right and wrong.

   Keep convincing yourself as such....

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 38):
I'm not saying Breivik doesn't deserve a harsh sentence... I just don't think any country should have the right to take people's lives.

  
First to fly the 787-9 (ZK-NZE, NZ103, 2014-10-09)
 
bjorn14
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 30):
So, can he write books about his political views while in prison? He obviously considers himself a martyr for his cause. Just curious, even Hitler wrote Mien Kampf while in prison.

He will have full internet access. I'm sure he can write a book but not sure if he can profit from it.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 41):
What? At the very least, part of his punishment should be that he has to share a cell with a prisoner who is Muslim.

Nope. He will be kept in isolation away from the general population.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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Aesma
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 34):
Nope, just whipped. Totally missing the point of a criminal justice system. First and foremost, the judicial system exists to PUNISH - it was created to prevent people from taking justice into their own hands, because people, rightly, realized having everyone take matters into their own hands was probably not a very good idea. For the system to be effective, the punishment has to fit the crime - if victims cannot ever feel justice is served, and criminals think their downside is limited, society breaks down. That is what is happening in South Africa and parts of Brazil, and is increasingly happening in Europe. The whole point about "rehabilitation" was just made up by the Moral Relativists in charge who cannot bring themselves to admit there is such a thing as right and wrong.

Society decides what is the goal of the justice system. As for the victims (or rather their relatives) I saw a few on the news and they seemed content with the sentence.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 42):
He will have full internet access. I'm sure he can write a book but not sure if he can profit from it.

No, he will not have internet access at all. The PC that he has has no connection to internett and basically is just a typewriter.

This has been public news in Norway all over the media.
 
cmf
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 42):
He will have full internet access. I'm sure he can write a book but not sure if he can profit from it.

Not only does he not have internet access. It is now up for review if he will be allowed to keep the computer.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
AviRaider
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 36):
The death penalty is a medieval device, where the punished were expected to burn in hell for the rest of eternity. Torture is also a medieval device. Luckily Norway is in 2012, not in 1500.

Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. He should, burn in hell for eternity. This man gave up his life when he executed children, PERIOD. He denied 77 people their right to live, so he shouldn't be given the same rights.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 36):
The victims cannot feel anything when they're dead.

The victims also include the families affected by this maniac.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 41):
For the families of the victims, putting him to death 100 times wouldn't be enough, but that is the nature of vengeance.

Nothing wrong with vengeance when there is no doubt who is responsible.
 
cmf
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 46):
Nothing wrong with vengeance when there is no doubt who is responsible.

To use your own words: "Just because you say it, doesn't make it so."

The reports I have seen have stated victims and relatives are happy with the verdict.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Norway: Court Rules Breitvik Sane

Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:59 pm

The adequate severity of punishment is subjective, so there is nothing necessarily wrong with this sentence. If Norwegians feel justice has been adequately served, then so be it.

Rehabilitation is fine and all, but we can't forget that justice isn't just about the guilty, it's also about the victim. There is always an element of punishment.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

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