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stasisLAX
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Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:43 am

2015 Lincoln MKR sedan (official Lincoln photo - concept vehicle)


Lincoln's MKS sedan is a sales failure. Ford's luxury division is only selling approximately 1,000 MKS sedans a month, while Cadillac is selling five times as many CTS sedans and the new XTS has been deemed a hit by the auto press, and Cadillac will soon parlay the XTS' success here in the USA and sell the model in both China and Europe (as an Opel, apparently).

Ford now realizes that no one (besides the Florida retiree market) will pay $50.000 USD for a overly chromed and leather-lined Ford Taurus sedan, even one with a 350 horsepower twin-turbo V-6, as the MKS offers - and the Taurus offers as well, also with all-wheel drive standard in the Taurus model. The new Mondeo-based Lincoln MKZ at least looks a lot different than its sexy Aston-ish styled 2013 Ford Fusion cousin. However, the uniquely styled MKZ has polarizing "love it or hate it" stying - the massive chrome grille (which Lincoln designers have said is supposed to look like an eagle's spread wings) just hasn't caught on thus far with the auto press or luxury buyers.

Lincoln is again on the ropes as a distinct brand, as Ford suffers tremendous losses (over $1 billion USD) recently from it's struggling European operations. In a move to cut costs, Lincoln may become collateral damage as Ford tries to stop the flow of Ford of Europe's red ink.

But, if Lincoln can hang on until the 2015 model year, the above-pictured MKR "suicide" doored sedan may be the savior of the brand. Lincoln desperately wants to utilize a stretched version of the all-new global 2015 Ford Mustang's RWD platform for a MKR sports sedan. The next-gen Mustang will weigh about 500 to 600 pounds less than the current Mustang, offer an independent rear-suspension (replacing the current model's ancient and ill-behaved live axle), and offer turbocharged Eco-Boost 4 and 6 cylinder engines, while any V-8 powered Mustangs may be limited-edition Shelby models due to tightening CAFE fuel economy standards. Lincoln would like to use an all-wheel drive version of the Mustang chassis for the MKR with an eight-speed automatic transmission (sourced from ZF likely) and the Eco-Boosted engines to compete with the new Cadillac ATS and the usual 3-series and C-class variants. A light hybrid version is also likely, if Ford decides to spend the money and go forward with the MKR.

Source: http://blog.caranddriver.com/lincoln...a-study-in-fords-brand-discipline/

[Edited 2012-08-26 19:45:37]

[Edited 2012-08-26 19:56:28]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
sccutler
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:59 am

Oh, for goodness' sake Ford, build it!

Lincoln is a proud marque, with many exceptional vehicles in its history. Preserve and build!
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Lincoln's MKS sedan is a sales failure.


We were saying that several years ago with Ford made this announcement.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Lincoln is again on the ropes as a distinct brand,


I blame CAFE.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
But, if Lincoln can hang on until the 2015 model year, the above-pictured MKR "suicide" doored sedan may be the savior of the brand.


Not going to happen.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Lincoln desperately wants to utilize a stretched version of the all-new global 2015 Ford Mustang's RWD platform


They already did that with the Mark VII and the LS.
Both of those were shared with the Mustang.
The Mark VII was one of their most successful models ever produced.

They need to go forward with the Continental concept. Hopefully with a regime change in Washington, those CAFE laws will get flushed down the toilet to it's rightful place.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Lincoln designers have said is supposed to look like an eagle's spread wings


The Edsel had a better looking grille with it's spreading....well.....never mind.  
Bring back the Concorde
 
BMI727
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Lincoln's MKS sedan is a sales failure.

A fact that surprises absolutely nobody outside of FoMoCo itself. And I'm sure a lot of insiders are self aware enough to know it's a dog.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
the new XTS has been deemed a hit by the auto press,

God knows why that is. Have any of them driven a 5 Series? Plus it looks like a Fusion somebody smashed into a wall.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
But, if Lincoln can hang on until the 2015 model year, the above-pictured MKR "suicide" doored sedan may be the savior of the brand.

A rear wheel drive sedan based off the Mustang platform is exactly what Lincoln needs...in 2010.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
I blame CAFE.

That's not why. Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, et. al. haven't had any problems turning out a decent product. Yes, CAFE is stupid and pointless, but it's equally stupid and pointless for everybody.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:55 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
I blame CAFE.

Why, other manufacturers manage well within it's regulations.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
That's not why. Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, et. al. haven't had any problems turning out a decent product.

Well said, Ford could do a decent job if they made the effort.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:25 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
That's not why. Mercedes, BMW, Lexus



Prestigious brands where the cost is already high and they don't mind the paying the extra CAFE penalty.
Ford has many commercial class vehicles in their fleet sold in the US that drags down there CAFE average.
Mercedes and BMW aren't fooling around with front-drive either.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BMI727
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:35 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Ford could do a decent job if they made the effort.

The Ecoboost isn't a bad engine, it's just in mediocre cars. Frankly if they could just use slightly retuned versions of the Mustang engines in a Lincoln sedan they'd be alright. A tire melting competitor for the CTS-V would be nice.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Prestigious brands where the cost is already high and they don't mind the paying the extra CAFE penalty.

CAFE was passed in 1975 when Cadillac and Lincoln still had some prestige. They still, despite all of their efforts, have some prestige now among people who came of age when the prestige was warranted. And there was no Lexus or really any Japanese luxury cars for that matter.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Ford has many commercial class vehicles in their fleet sold in the US that drags down there CAFE average.

The rest of the world has clearly suffered from having to use Mercedes, BMWs, and Audis as taxis and police cars.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Mercedes and BMW aren't fooling around with front-drive either.

That's part of where Lincoln and Cadillac go wrong. Who other than the AARP crowd would seriously consider a Cadillac XTS in a world that also features the E Class?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:56 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
CAFE was passed in 1975 when Cadillac and Lincoln still had some prestige.


CAFE laws then were not that strict.
The law is the reason we got the Versailles and Seville.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
The rest of the world has clearly suffered from having to use Mercedes, BMWs, and Audis as taxis and police cars.


Those aren't sold in the US.
Most cargo vans and trucks are Fords in the US.
Ford had the lowest CAFE ratings for many years. Now that the Panther platform and Econoline van is out of production, their CAFE numbers may go higher.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
The Ecoboost isn't a bad engine, it's just in mediocre cars. Frankly if they could just use slightly retuned versions of the Mustang engines in a Lincoln sedan they'd be alright. A tire melting competitor for the CTS-V would be nice.


Would have been great to have one in the LS if it was still around. That was a great sedan that Lincoln neglected to market aggressively.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Mercedes and BMW aren't fooling around with front-drive either.

They are, Mercedes will most likely sell the A & B classes in the US and BMW is selling MINI's, plus next year BMW will launch it's own FWD competitor to Mercedes B class, it also looks like it will come to the US.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
The new Mondeo-based Lincoln MKZ at least looks a lot different than its sexy Aston-ish styled 2013 Ford Fusion cousin. However, the uniquely styled MKZ has polarizing "love it or hate it" stying - the massive chrome grille (which Lincoln designers have said is supposed to look like an eagle's spread wings) just hasn't caught on thus far with the auto press or luxury buyers.

I don't believe that the 2013 MKZ has gone on sale just yet. Only time will tell whether it will be a hit or a dud.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Ford now realizes that no one (besides the Florida retiree market) will pay $50.000 USD for a overly chromed and leather-lined Ford Taurus sedan, even one with a 350 horsepower twin-turbo V-6, as the MKS offers - and the Taurus offers as well, also with all-wheel drive standard in the Taurus model.

In other news, dung don't flow uphill. When the MKS first rolled out (as a 2009); I was of the first ones on here that predicted that the car would be an epic failure. It was a failure for several reasons:

1. FWD-based. While that may be okay for either the cheaper brand(s) (Ford in this case) or even for its smaller size models (granted, that could one be open for debate); it is not okay for one's full-size flagship model.

2. Confused marketing: some at Lincoln say it was launched to ultimately replace the Town Car (which it ultimately did, for now) while others at Lincoln simulataneously stated that the MKS was supposed to be an in-between car in terms of sizes... bigger than a MKZ but smaller than a Town Car.

3. It's bizzare styling cues and roofline created less interior room and trunk space than its Taurus & Sable (it was still around then) cousins. Granted, the 2010 Taurus revamp compromised interior and trunk space as well (compared to the 2009 model) but it at least some out there actually like the looks of the 2010 and later Taurus.

4. The MKS is the first 'full-size' Lincoln produced that was not larger/longer than any of its Ford/Mercury counterparts. While many past Lincolns shared components and platforms w/their Ford/Mercury counterparts; traditionally, Lincoln always made it a point to offer their model in a larger size. Even the final Town Cars featured a longer wheelbase (117.4") than the final Crown Vics/Grand Marquis (114.4"). When one bought a full-size Lincoln, part of that higher price meant that one was getting a larger (and usually roomier) car as well. It's worth noting that Cadillac followed this practice as well in having all their full-size models larger than their Buick (& Oldsmobile) counterparts.

5. Lincoln adopting alpha-numeric names for all of its vehicles didn't help as well.

BTW, I don't believe that all Taurus models are AWD; just the SHO model.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
I blame CAFE.

Why, other manufacturers manage well within it's regulations.

Many of their larger higher-end models (that drag down their CAFE ratings) have a gas-guzzler tax slapped on the sticker prices.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Lincoln desperately wants to utilize a stretched version of the all-new global 2015 Ford Mustang's RWD platform

They already did that with the Mark VII and the LS.
Both of those were shared with the Mustang.
The Mark VII was one of their most successful models ever produced.

I wouldn't go that far, the Mark VII had a rocky start for its first few years. It wasn't until Lincoln stuffed a H.O. 5.0 V8 (shared w/the Mustang GT of the era) under the hood and GM mistakenly redid it E-cars in 1986 that people started noticing (& buying) the Mark VII.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
CAFE was passed in 1975 when Cadillac and Lincoln still had some prestige.


CAFE laws then were not that strict.
The law is the reason we got the Versailles and Seville.

Agreed, the current CAFE standards/mandates aren't your father's CAFE standards. The first CAFE milestone was 18 mpg set for the 1978 model year.

Back to the 2015 MKR. If it's full-sized, RWD-based and V8-powered: Lincoln, for your own brand preservation, Build It!
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srbmod
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:20 pm

Lincoln is definitely having a bit of an identity crisis. Too many of their vehicles are rebadged Fords and why should someone pay more for a Lincoln with that being the case? Cadillac had to learn this lesson as well, as they fell hard with the Cimarron in the 1980s and the Catera in the 1990s. Slapping the badge and grille of a luxury brand on a vehicle that isn't known for luxury is an exercise in stupidity.
 
jetstar
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 10):
Lincoln is definitely having a bit of an identity crisis. Too many of their vehicles are rebadged Fords and why should someone pay more for a Lincoln with that being the case? Cadillac had to learn this lesson as well, as they fell hard with the Cimarron in the 1980s and the Catera in the 1990s. Slapping the badge and grille of a luxury brand on a vehicle that isn't known for luxury is an exercise in stupidity.

But Cadillac is doing this successfully today with the Escalade series, which are nothing more than plushed out, rebadged and with a different grill Chevy Tahoe’s and Suburban’s.

JetStar
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Who other than the AARP crowd would seriously consider a Cadillac XTS in a world that also features the E Class?

And the AARP crowd isn't worried much about handling. The XTS has a cavernous back seat (with over 40 inches of legroom) and a New Jersey sized trunk (18+ cubic feet - more than an S-class or a 7-series) which is what the older buyer wants - SPACE. Space is the biggest reason LIncoln still sold with the gigantic Town Car (especially trunk room) well after its prime. You can pack 4 big guys and their golf bags into the XTS with space to spare, and not have to drive a boxy SUV or CUV to the country club. Now, Cadillac's resale value is a concern - but Cadillac swears that the XTS is not going to be sold to car rental fleets in large numbers (like the DTS was - and like Ford did with the Town Car) - which should preserve resale values over time.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 11):
But Cadillac is doing this successfully today with the Escalade series, which are nothing more than plushed out, rebadged and with a different grill Chevy Tahoe’s and Suburban’s.

The Escalade is a different story compared to the Cimarron and Catera. The Tahoe/GMC Yukon and the Suburban have never been "cheap" vehicles to begin with. The base Tahoe starts out at $38K and the base Suburban starts out at $42K.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 10):
the Catera in the 1990s. Slapping the badge and grille of a luxury brand on a vehicle that isn't known for luxury is an exercise in stupidity.

To be fair to the Catera the Opel Senator which it was based on was Opels executive saloon in Europe.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
To be fair to the Catera the Opel Senator which it was based on was Opels executive saloon in Europe.

At the time of the Catera, the Opel name was about as tarnished in the US as other European brands that failed in the US like Fiat and Peugeot. Folks still remembered the Opels sold in the US in the 60s and 70s and how many of them were pretty bad and in fact, the later Opels were built in Japan by Izuzu for the US market. The Catera's problems didn't help either. By the time GM starting using Opel designs on Saturn models, things had improved.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):

They need to go forward with the Continental concept. Hopefully with a regime change in Washington, those CAFE laws will get flushed down the toilet to it's rightful place.

I don't think voting for the GOP will change any of that. That said, I think Ford can do this without stepping on too many CAFE toes. Yes, they need to build it. Is there some technical reason why waiting until 2014 is a good idea?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
the new XTS has been deemed a hit by the auto press,

God knows why that is. Have any of them driven a 5 Series? Plus it looks like a Fusion somebody smashed into a wall.

Seriously. Cadillac is NO closer to their foreign competition than they were twelve years ago. It blows my mind why Motor Trend gets all excited about their latest offerings. While I wouldn't call them junk, per se, there's no question that every model in their line up is overpriced by at least $20,000.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Who other than the AARP crowd would seriously consider a Cadillac XTS in a world that also features the E Class?

No one, of course. But the thing is that the AARP crowd is still a market, one that has been their bread & butter for decades now. Why they're chasing them out the door with items no one else is interested in anyway is beyond me.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
The law is the reason we got the Versailles and Seville.

Hey now. I liked that turtle-back seville.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Most cargo vans and trucks are Fords in the US.

Maybe, but that's changing too. My company uses a combination of Nissan NVs & Mercedes Sprinter vans for everything from MX Ops to general transport services. We have no Fords,  
Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):

Would have been great to have one in the LS if it was still around. That was a great sedan that Lincoln neglected to market aggressively.

I wanted one of those too, when I was about 22. No way I could afford it, obviously. And now that I can, there are only used ones available, and not many in that great shape to be had.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):

5. Lincoln adopting alpha-numeric names for all of its vehicles didn't help as well.

Yeah, well it's not helping Cadillac either, unless alienating & confusing customers was the goal. Both Cadillac & Lincoln need to remember that they do in fact have some decent name plates they can use. Leave the letters to the Japanese & the numbers to the Germans.
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stasisLAX
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 13):
The Escalade is a different story compared to the Cimarron and Catera.

  

Indeed, the Escalade generates HUGE profits for GM, which is why the Escalade SUV will remain a "gussied up" Tahoe/Yukon for the foreseeable future. Another Cadillac model will become a full-sized luxury CUV based on the Acadia/Traverse/Enclave platform in a couple of model years.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:33 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 15):
the later Opels were built in Japan by Izuzu for the US market.

I could have sworn my last Opel (Kadett Rallye) was built in South Korea but I see no such record of that. Which surprised me at the time as the same model one year older I had was from W Germany.
They were being sold through Buick who was ill-equipped to deal with an import. They were not bad cars, I had quite a lot of fun in mine, being much more nimble than your average K car. I can't say I ever remember the Kadett C, which was the Isuzu.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 18):
They were being sold through Buick who was ill-equipped to deal with an import. They were not bad cars, I had quite a lot of fun in mine, being much more nimble than your average K car.

The Buick Opels (versus the Opel by Isuzu) were sold here in the U.S. until 1975, when the exchange rates made the German built Opels too costly to compete in the USA auto market, thus the infamous Isuzu Opels were sold by Buick after the 1975 model year.

The Buick Opel Manta models (coupe and sedan - was there a station wagon sold in America too?) were actually quite nice, with good handling and fuel economy - and a rather luxurious color-coded corduroy trimmed interiors. One of my high school math teachers had a cranberry Manta coupe (in the late1970s) that she keep in absolutely pristine condition because she liked the car so much - and told me that she owned a (imported from Europe) Ford Capri coupe before the Manta, but got rid of the Capri because it had badly rusted due to the road salt used in our awful Pennsylvania winters.
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PHLBOS
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 16):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):

They need to go forward with the Continental concept. Hopefully with a regime change in Washington, those CAFE laws will get flushed down the toilet to it's rightful place.

I don't think voting for the GOP will change any of that.

Despite the recent alterations to CAFE laws recently made by the President; the work of abolishing the CAFE laws, like the National Speed Limit, requires an Act of Congress to do so. You're right, changing Presidents alone won't make that happen; changing the Senate along w/the Presidency will. The House alone, can't repeal CAFE. It's outright repeal requires the trifecta of the House, Senate & the Presidency.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 16):
That said, I think Ford can do this without stepping on too many CAFE toes. Yes, they need to build it. Is there some technical reason why waiting until 2014 is a good idea?
If their upcoming electric/plug-in models become sales hits; that will indeed take some of the pressure off the MKR being a CAFE drag-down.

As far as waiting until 2014 to build a production model is concerned; one needs to keep in mind that not every concept model displayed (not just Lincoln) isn't exactly production/driveable nor has received production approval from the higher-ups. It's quite possible that the scheduled late 2014 release (as a 2015 model) is due to the time it would take to transform the concept model to production specs and all applicable safety requirements/standards.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 16):
Hey now. I liked that turtle-back seville.


Me too! Especially in champagne.
I'm partial to the Versailles though.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 16):
Maybe, but that's changing too. My company uses a combination of Nissan NVs & Mercedes Sprinter vans for everything from MX Ops to general transport services. We have no Fords,



When it comes to ambulance, power/utility agencies, fire, paramedics, beer trucks, tow trucks and other heavy duty applications seem to be mostly Fords.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 16):
I wanted one of those too, when I was about 22. No way I could afford it, obviously. And now that I can, there are only used ones available, and not many in that great shape to be had.


2007 was the last year. There may be a few that may be in great shape.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 16):
Lincoln need to remember that they do in fact have some decent name plates they can use. Leave the letters to the Japanese & the numbers to the Germans.


  

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 20):
Despite the recent alterations to CAFE laws recently made by the President; the work of abolishing the CAFE laws, like the National Speed Limit, requires an Act of Congress to do so. You're right, changing Presidents alone won't make that happen; changing the Senate along w/the Presidency will. The House alone, can't repeal CAFE. It's outright repeal requires the trifecta of the House, Senate & the Presidency.


That is true and I can see that being repealed if we get Romney. He comes from a car family and knows the business end of the industry.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Would have been great to have one in the LS if it was still around. That was a great sedan that Lincoln neglected to market aggressively.

It was good because most of the chassis engineering was done by Jaguar. Pity that Lincoln slapped such an ugly body on it.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 20):
The House alone, can't repeal CAFE. It's outright repeal requires the trifecta of the House, Senate & the Presidency.

The question is why would any govt want to repeal it, the idea of making cars more economical is a good one and can only benefit the consumer and the economy.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
The question is why would any govt want to repeal it, the idea of making cars more economical is a good one and can only benefit the consumer and the economy.



Let the consumers decide. Average mileage had been going up even before the first CAFE law was passed in 1975.
Contrary to popular opinion, most people buy what their wallets dictate and fuel economy is a deciding factor for many buyers. Today, CAFE laws are set very high for the government to make an excuse to get more tax money. Has nothing to do about saving the world or making better cars. It's a scam for the government.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Let the consumers decide. Average mileage had been going up even before the first CAFE law was passed in 1975.

Without CAFE you lot would still be driving around in land yachts, sometimes industry needs a helping hand from govt to push them in the right direction, CAFE was this helping hand. The other way of tackling excessive fuel consumption is to jack up fuel costs, fuel is dirt cheap in the Us compared to European prices.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
Without CAFE you lot would still be driving around in land yachts

But there wouldn't have been an explosion (or at least as large of one) of SUVs into the market or at least as big of one. Large station wagons would've still been the multi-passenger, towing capable vehicle of choice rather than oversized SUVs.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:06 pm

Well, that's because CAFE is flawed in not including SUVs. Here SUVs get the same CO2 tax as any car, and SUVs only started to sell when they could go on small diesel engines (typically 1,5 liters). And of course they use the same heavily taxed fuel.
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Superfly
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
Without CAFE you lot would still be driving around in land yachts, sometimes industry needs a helping hand from govt to push them in the right direction, CAFE was this helping hand.


Wrong.
Small cars were becoming popular before CAFE. That was the consumer deciding, not the government.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 25):
But there wouldn't have been an explosion (or at least as large of one) of SUVs into the market or at least as big of one. Large station wagons would've still been the multi-passenger, towing capable vehicle of choice rather than oversized SUVs.


  
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 25):
But there wouldn't have been an explosion (or at least as large of one) of SUVs into the market or at least as big of one.

I disagree, note that SUV's are popular in other markets, not just the US. My wife's next car will be an SUV, she is short she wants to sit up high, something she can't do in a stationwagon.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 26):
Well, that's because CAFE is flawed in not including SUVs.

It should at least include vehicles like the Surburban and Esclade which are mainly purchased by private buyers.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
It was good because most of the chassis engineering was done by Jaguar.

Got it. When they did something you like, it is a Jaguar success, when Jaguar does a flop, it was all Ford's fault.

In today's news, Ford announced the introduction of Lincoln into the Chinese market in 2014.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 25):
But there wouldn't have been an explosion (or at least as large of one) of SUVs into the market or at least as big of one.

I disagree, note that SUV's are popular in other markets, not just the US. My wife's next car will be an SUV, she is short she wants to sit up high, something she can't do in a stationwagon.

You forget that full-size station wagons in the US and Canada were larger than any of those offered elsewhere. The gigantic land-yachts of the 70s offered tow packages capable of towing up to 7000 lbs. Their downsized successors of the 80s could be equipped to tow up to 5000 lbs.

With full-size, V8-powered RWD cars being under a constant threat of elimination had CAFE standards been bumped up earlier; auotmakers, for better or worse, decided to focus on SUVs (which were based on truck platforms) and target those towards baby boomers that realized that they needed more room (for a growing family) and utility (towing) than their FWD compacts of the era could offer.

The recent switch-over to FWD-based, more CUV-type SUVs among many mid-size SUVs comes with a sacrifice in towing capabilities BTW; which means that demand for full-size SUVs (like the Expedition and Tahoe) could see an increase in customer base from those looking to replace their old Explorers and TrailBlazers but still want towing capabilities in their next vehicle. Heck, Chevy's already seen an increase in Tahoe sales due to law-enforcement agencies choosing it over the current crop of full-size cars to replace any high-mileage and/or destroyed (due to accidents) Crown Vics in their fleet.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
It should at least include vehicles like the Surburban and Esclade which are mainly purchased by private buyers.

If those are targeted, then pick-up trucks would become the next target as well. Full-size Crew-Cab pickups, in some parts of the country, have become the new full-size family sedan.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Would have been great to have one in the LS if it was still around. That was a great sedan that Lincoln neglected to market aggressively.

It was good because most of the chassis engineering was done by Jaguar. Pity that Lincoln slapped such an ugly body on it.

Are you sure you're thinking of the right Lincoln, KiwiRob? The LS, while being no great beauty, was far from "ugly". I suspect a big part of the LS's failure to be a sales success, apart from a lack of proper marketing, was it's innocuous and generally forgettable styling.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
CAFE laws then were not that strict.
The law is the reason we got the Versailles and Seville.

But they were never a secret. CAFE and the gas guzzler tax didn't cause other foreign manufacturers to foist crap on the American consumer.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
And the AARP crowd isn't worried much about handling.

That's why they put up with it, although it should be noted that there are plenty of grey haired BMW and Mercedes drivers.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Pity that Lincoln slapped such an ugly body on it.

It wasn't ugly as much as it was generic. It looked like one of those cars you see in video games to end run around trademarks with almost styling cues from a several different cars. The LS came off looking like the not-BMW 3 Series. Mitsubishi had several models styled the same way.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
Without CAFE you lot would still be driving around in land yachts, sometimes industry needs a helping hand from govt to push them in the right direction, CAFE was this helping hand.

Without CAFE a lot of those SUVs would be relatively more efficient land yachts. SUVs did exist prior to CAFE and the gas guzzler tax, but their popularity exploded afterwards. Before, they were much more utilitarian and fewer were daily drivers.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 29):
Got it. When they did something you like, it is a Jaguar success, when Jaguar does a flop, it was all Ford's fault.

Jaguar haven't made any booboo's in many a year, Ford actually did them some good, I've never said otherwise, without Ford's investment Jaguar would most likely have closed.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
If those are targeted, then pick-up trucks would become the next target as well. Full-size Crew-Cab pickups, in some parts of the country, have become the new full-size family sedan.

Tax them if they are being sold to private individuals, pretty easy solution.

Quoting TSS (Reply 31):
Are you sure you're thinking of the right Lincoln, KiwiRob? The LS, while being no great beauty, was far from "ugly". I suspect a big part of the LS's failure to be a sales success, apart from a lack of proper marketing, was it's innocuous and generally forgettable styling.

Yup it was a dull looking car, I didn't think it was very attractive and the interior was fairly plain as well, not up to the required standards.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
Without CAFE a lot of those SUVs would be relatively more efficient land yachts.

I have no idea how you could possibly come to that conclusion, SUV's should be included in CAFE, it's a daft louphole which should be closed.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:42 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
I have no idea how you could possibly come to that conclusion,

Before CAFE and the gas guzzler tax came into existence, there were SUVs. In fact, almost every major manufacturer offered them. CAFE was enacted in 1975 and the gas guzzler tax in 1978, so here's a snapshot of what was on dealer lots in 1975.

AMC had purchased Jeep several years earlier and their product line that included both the rugged CJ and the more comfortable Wagoneer and Cherokee models. Dodge was a bit late to the party, having just introduced the Ramcharger in 1974. GM had the Blazer and the Suburban, which had just celebrated its 40th anniversary. The Ford Bronco and International Harvester Scout were also on sale at the time.

SUVs were not something new that popped up and caught on like wildfire in the late 1970s and 1980s. What changed was the popularity and usage of the vehicles, which then changed in step with their customers' demands. What happened was the government passed the laws that pressured manufacturers into downsizing or discontinuing their larger car models. Many customers, however, were not going to be denied the space they wanted and so ended up buying SUVs for the school and shopping trips that used to be performed by large sedans and station wagons. SUVs, in turn, evolved to be more like the large cars they were replacing in daily use. Of course, for a given interior size, an SUV will probably be heavier and less efficient than a station wagon or a crossover.

Crossovers are basically a return to the large station wagon that occurred when consumers started caring about fuel economy again, but of course station wagons were still out because crossovers could still be counted as light trucks. The lesson to be learned is that, despite the government's best efforts, the consumer is king.

At the time, the loophole for SUVs did somewhat make sense, since SUVs (with the exception of the Wagoneer) were not really consumer products as much as utilitarian work tools. But I'm not going to sit here and carry on about loopholes in laws that have no business existing in the first place.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:24 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
The lesson to be learned is that, despite the government's best efforts, the consumer is king.

No the lesson learnt is the govt were stupid and didn't include SUV's and later CUV's into CAFE.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Ford's luxury division is only selling approximately 1,000 MKS sedans a month,

You nailed it...the biggest issue, even beyond the very sound points already posited, is that few will spend that kind of money for what they don't perceive is either luxury or performance. It's a classic value disparity and Lincoln has sucked at figuring it out. I know when I looked at cars, I quickly crossed the Lincolns off my list because of that value.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 10):
Lincoln is definitely having a bit of an identity crisis. Too many of their vehicles are rebadged Fords and why should someone pay more for a Lincoln with that being the case?

Another big driver.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
The lesson to be learned is that, despite the government's best efforts, the consumer is king.

No the lesson learnt is the govt were stupid and didn't include SUV's and later CUV's into CAFE.

KiwiRob, CAFE figures have already existed and still exist for trucks (vans, SUVs & later CUVs); they're just set at a lower number. As a matter of fact; every mass-produced vehicle that has a gross vehicle weight of 8500 lbs. and under is subject to CAFE standards. What is changing is the gap between the car figure and truck figure is indeed being closed.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
Tax them if they are being sold to private individuals, pretty easy solution.

To a degree, that's already been done. If a vehicle falls below a certain mileage threshold; it's slapped w/a gas guzzler tax. That tax was the primary reason why Ford never offered the 5.4L engine in its full-size cars (including the Lincoln Town Car) despite pleas from full-size enthusiasts and state police agencies.

Since trucks are measured (and, for reality reasons, will still be) by different CAFE figures; the 5.4L engine in the Expedition (now, the only engine offered) hasn't triggered a gas-guzzler tax on it. As a matter of fact, a 4WD Expedition is heavy enough (over 8500 lbs.) to be exempt from both requiring EPA ratings posted and CAFE standards.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:45 pm

Scrap CAFE, put a war tax of 2$ per gallon and see if big SUVs stay popular.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:14 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):

Me too! Especially in champagne.

Champagne's nice. I was always partial to the two-tone silver/charcoal combo. In fact, now I think of it, I've always really liked most two-tones. Shame that fell out of style.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):

When it comes to ambulance, power/utility agencies, fire, paramedics, beer trucks, tow trucks and other heavy duty applications seem to be mostly Fords.

For now. But I have to admit that I'm seeing more and more Sprinters out there. I have to admit, for a van, they really haul some serious ass too.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):

2007 was the last year. There may be a few that may be in great shape.

I'm sure there are a few out there. But everything I looked at had a real "rode hard & out away wet" look to it. Plus the leather seating seemed to be lined and cracked a lot too... ...holy crap, did I just describe my ex wife too??

Quoting Aesma (Reply 38):


Scrap CAFE, put a war tax of 2$ per gallon and see if big SUVs stay popular.

I'd be for that. Even more so if there was a concurrent $2/gal discount for high mileage vehicles too. It doesn't sound like it on the surface, but I think that's about the most fair option out there. Suggest that seriously in the US though, and there'd be rioting in the streets.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:56 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
The lesson to be learned is that, despite the government's best efforts, the consumer is king.


  
Damn right!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
here's a snapshot of what was on dealer lots in 1975.

AMC had purchased Jeep several years earlier and their product line that included both the rugged CJ and the more comfortable Wagoneer and Cherokee models. Dodge was a bit late to the party, having just introduced the Ramcharger in 1974. GM had the Blazer and the Suburban, which had just celebrated its 40th anniversary. The Ford Bronco and International Harvester Scout were also on sale at the time.



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Quoting Aesma (Reply 38):
put a war tax of 2$ per gallon and see if big SUVs stay popular.


Why should this "war tax" only apply to gasoline? How about it apply to computers, ipads, smart phones, medical equipment, baby products, beverages that come in plastic bottles, clothing, bicycle tires, breaks & pads, furniture, housing, aircraft, eyeglasses and everything else that uses oil to produce? Obama tried to push a similar bill through Congress called Cap & Trade that would have taxed everything at every point of production to earn brownie points with environmentalist. Luckily there were enough Democrats with common sense that blocked it from going in to law.
Also, most gasoline used in the US comes from the US, Canada and Venezuela. No wars going on there.
Gas used in France on the other-hand....

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 39):
I was always partial to the two-tone silver/charcoal combo.


A know a college professor in San Francisco that has that exact car an still drives it today.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 39):
I've always really liked most two-tones. Shame that fell out of style.


Agreed. They hung around longer on the pick up trucks.
The two-tone car I like is the Bill Blass Mark V which is white & navy blue.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 39):
lined and cracked a lot too... ...holy crap, did I just describe my ex wife too??


LOL!   
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 39):
Shame that fell out of style.

With cheap cars, but with high end cars like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Bugatti, Ferrari two tone paint jobs are still popular. .
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
Why should this "war tax" only apply to gasoline? How about it apply to computers, ipads, smart phones, medical equipment, baby products, beverages that come in plastic bottles, clothing, bicycle tires, breaks & pads, furniture, housing, aircraft, eyeglasses and everything else that uses oil to produce?

You're right, the tax we have here (called the TIPP) applies to oil, coal, natural gas, heating oil, etc. However only on the basic products, but of course if you buy those to make plastic stuff the tax will be paid at some point.

As for our sources of oil, sure it's mainly the middle east, after all it's close (and thanks for putting your army there, we also have some bases but far smaller). But we also buy diesel fuel from the US, and sell you gasoline in exchange, since we're addicted to diesel and you the opposite. After the first oil crisis there was a famous TV ad here promoting less oil use, saying "In France, we don't have oil but we have ideas". That's one of the reasons we have so much nuclear power. On the other hand we just discovered we had oil after all, in Guyane, and lots of shale gas too (but we made fracking illegal, so we'll see if a better idea comes up).

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 41):
With cheap cars, but with high end cars like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Bugatti, Ferrari two tone paint jobs are still popular.

Don't forget the Mini and DS3, high end in their market but not that expensive. The other day I saw a guy driving a relatively dark gray DS3, with some flowery design in white, and a pink roof ! I found it quite ugly to say the truth, however I'm partial to that one :

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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):
Don't forget the Mini

How daft of me, my last MINI was pepper white with black roof, and my current one is pure red with black roof. The DS3 Racing is a super little car, I had a test drive in one recently, if it wasn't over 65k USD in Norway it would make a great MINI replacement.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):
That's one of the reasons we have so much nuclear power.


That is one of the great things about France. It's too bad that there was such a huge movement against nuclear power in the US by environmentalist back in the 1970s. We could have had a very efficient nuclear power grid if the the environmentalist didn't stand in the way of progress.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):
we just discovered we had oil after all, in Guyane, and lots of shale gas too


Awesome!
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
Heck, Chevy's already seen an increase in Tahoe sales due to law-enforcement agencies choosing it over the current crop of full-size cars to replace any high-mileage and/or destroyed (due to accidents) Crown Vics in their fleet.

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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
Destruction isn't always accidental!

Since it's too late to edit my earlier post, I will place it here for 'your personal enjoyment'    ; edits underlined and bolded:

Heck, Chevy's already seen an increase in Tahoe sales due to law-enforcement agencies choosing it over the current crop of full-size cars to replace any high-mileage and/or destroyed (mostly due to accidents) Crown Vics in their fleet.
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 39):
Suggest that seriously in the US though, and there'd be rioting in the streets.

And rightfully so. Not only from the people who see no efficiency in handing the government more money, but from the working poor who would be severely hit.
 
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 38):
Scrap CAFE, put a war tax of 2$ per gallon and see if big SUVs stay popular.

$2 from every gallon going straight to the defense budget? Sign me up!
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RE: Lincoln's Last Grasp - The 2015 MKR Sports Sedan?

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
Quoting TSS (Reply 31):
Are you sure you're thinking of the right Lincoln, KiwiRob? The LS, while being no great beauty, was far from "ugly". I suspect a big part of the LS's failure to be a sales success, apart from a lack of proper marketing, was it's innocuous and generally forgettable styling.

Yup it was a dull looking car, I didn't think it was very attractive and the interior was fairly plain as well, not up to the required standards.

For once, we are in agreement. It's a pity that the LS wasn't better looking as it had reasonably attractive proportions, and more distinctively Lincoln-esque styling would have made it a knockout. As for the interior, I'll even go so far as to say I think you're being too kind. The LS's interior gave new meaning to the term "generic" and it's dashboard would have looked much more at home in a base-model Contour than in a premium Lincoln offering.
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