Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:30 am

I mentioned on another thread that I would start this one, so as to avoid getting off-topic on that thread.
Every government entity that I mention is in plain sight, and It's common knowledge that what I've listed is as described. I have no means to check every figure to see if it's "to the penny" accurate, but it really isn't important;
I'm sure you'll see what I mean.

Listed below are some of the Federal Government's attempts to manage
things, none of which has "worked" all that well;


a.. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775.
 
234 years later, and it's broke, closing offices and may
go down the tube in the near future.
How long has Fed-Ex been in business ? Everytime I look.
they use keep getting bigger !
U.P.S. ? Even bigger and stronger !
( Even private mails delivery seems to catching on )
all while the USPS is "withering on the vine" !


b.. Social Security was established in 1935.
 
74 years to get it right and it is broke.
It was a Ponzi scheme when it was started,
and it's still a Ponzi scheme; the only difference is....
the Federal Government runs it.
I'm real lucky on this one........it looks like it will "outlast" me....(barely)

c.. Fannie Mae was established in 1938.

71 years to get it right but it's still broke
Again......Fannie Mae has had lots of publicity of late.
I'm not "sweating" Fannie Mae.........our house an land are free and clear

d.. War on Poverty started in 1964
 
45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our
money is confiscated each year and
transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
The "poor" have always been with us and
they will ALWAYS be with us. ( there are many good
reasons for this, but that's another discussion for another time.)
( Poverty......only thing I can think of that may "outlast" bed rock ! )

e.. Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965.  

44 years to get it right and it's STILL broke.
This is the one that I have LOTS of first hand knowledge of !
This one's gonna be close ! so far, so good

f.. Freddie Mac was established in 1970.

39 years to get it right and it's broke.


g.. The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our
dependence on foreign oil.

It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion
a year and we import more oil than ever before.  
32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.
(It does however provide a very "cushy" lifestyle to
16,000 bureaucrats…..all at taxpayer's expense.)
This monster is so big that shutting it down completely
would likely cause a recession !

So…. that's the Government's track record, from 1775 until the present;
Any major accomplishments that DID go well ? So far, we have prevailed
in most of the wars we've been in; at the moment, we have the best Army in history,
a very good Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps......(but that could change during the next 4 years)

Now, with this track record as "proof of it's expertise, government
now decides that it can better manage our entire health care system.

If you embrace the progressive mind-set, you no doubt believe
that "more government" is "better".

I believe government not only doesn't have the answer to the problem.
I believe government IS "the problem".


But that's just "my opinion" you say ? Yeah, it's my opinion, and it's based
on "what has worked", and worked pretty well; below are a few "facts"
that I base my opinion on; (just one example; there are many more)

Wal-Mart

1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.

2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!

3. Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick's Day (March
17th) than Target sells all year.

4. Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target +Sears +
Costco + K-Mart combined.

5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

7. Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger and Safeway combined, and
keep in mind they did this in only fifteen years.

8. During this same period, 31 big supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.

9. Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.

10. Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are
Super Centers; this is 1,000 more than it had five years ago.

11. This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur
at Wal-Mart stores. (Earth's population is approximately 6.5 Billion.)

12. 90% of all Americans live within fifteen miles of a Wal-Mart.

The above information is from exhaustive research on the internet, and
my personal observation. (and a few more sources) You may not like Wal Mart; many don't;
I'm not suggesting that we should have Wal Mart take over and run the
Government; I'm merely pointing out what economists have known for
years; that private enterprise is many times as efficient more likely to succeed in
managing a large, complex "anything" than is government;
The government lacks efficiency at ANYTHING ! ( remember those $500 toilet seats, and those $150 claw hammers? ) (that YOU the taxpayer paid for ?)

Another great example; Apple Computer…………you may prefer "PC's"'
again……it really doesn't matter what we as individuals "like" of "prefer";
it's about "what works" and "what doesn't work"; you don't need me to
remind you about Microsoft's "track record"………and you don't need me
point out how successful Apple has been; you can see both with your own
eyes!

All of this ranting and raving about Obama and Romney is really a
waste of time; If you still think Obama can do the job, after running up
six trillion in debt in less than 4 years, then vote for him. (and tell me you worry about Social Security!)
Afraid of "ruining Social Security ? I have BAD news: It's ALREADY ruined;
you can just borrow so much money without paying it back; and you can only print
so much worthless paper money before people will be burning it for fuel; if you doubt that
I suggest you read about Germany, post WW 1.

I really didn't want to say this on a forum, because it violates a rule I
have with myself……..I don't like to criticize anyone's religion;
however…….I have read the entire history of the Church Of Latter
Day Saints…….and I've read much of the Book Of Mormon; I have
never felt that I would advocate someone who is Mormon to be the
POTUS; Under the present circumstances, I've changed my mind
about that. ( I really don't think Mitt Romney is out to "convert"
anyone to his religion. )

Regardless of who prevails in November, remember this: no
government in the history of the world has EVER done a great job
at managing a huge, complex economy for any significant period of time.

That's my thoughts; You may now prove to me I'm wrong.

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4007
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:46 am

What is the point of comparing a for profit businesses to government programs or services?
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
QFA380
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:38 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:57 am

I find it incredibly ironic that in the same post you blast the poor for confiscating your money while all the while thanking your lucky stars you'll die before Medicare and Social Security run out. Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.

Also while no fan of government post services, comparing FedEx to USPS is ridiculous. FedEx charges as much as they want and can decline to deliver something, USPS has to deliver to every address pretty much and charges 25c. Depends if you want an underclass of people without access to postage or not...
 
Go3Team
Posts: 3156
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:19 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:41 am

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
74 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
71 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
45 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
44 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
39 years to get it right
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
32 years to get it right

I am going to go out on a limb and say that they are still not right.
Yay Pudding!
 
flyingturtle
Posts: 4754
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:24 am

Hello Geezer!  

I have my views on government and privately run businesses. And many government-run things are needed. I would love to hear your opinions if you let them run privately. Heck, the government could outsource the whole defense against military and terrorist threats to Blackwater and, for the case that they would fail, buy insurance on the free market.

It would be a real fun to watch.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
a.. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775.

234 years later, and it's broke, closing offices and may
go down the tube in the near future.

It would be even worse if the postal services were privately run. In Switzerland, many offices were slashed and we are lucky if a town bigger than 1000 inhabitants still has one.

The problem isn't that something needs to be run efficiently and without a loss. The problem is defining a basic set of services that every citizen has a right to. As the U.S. is still a democratic country, most people seem to be happy with it.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
b.. Social Security was established in 1935.

74 years to get it right and it is broke.
It was a Ponzi scheme when it was started,
and it's still a Ponzi scheme; the only difference is....
the Federal Government runs it.

I know what a Ponzi scheme is (and I've translated the Wikipedia article into German), but it only refers to investment. Social Security isn't one. And you know how broke Social Security is, while whoever runs a Ponzi scheme will withhold that information from you.

The Swiss AHV is also broke, and we discuss raising the eligibility age every year. It can build up reserves, but most of the money is spent at the same time - imagine how that'll work with all the baby boomers receiving pensions. 8.4% of my income goes to that AHV, and I do not want it (edit: the eligibility age) to be raised - the simple reason is that people in high-risk jobs (construction workers, builders) rarely reach the eligibility age (males 65 years of age, females 64), and I don't want to put them into a worse situation.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

e.. Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965.

44 years to get it right and it's STILL broke.

They are broke. 

But Medicare and Medicaid deliver the most medical care to the patients for the least amount of money! Try that with hospitals that your normal hospital and try to insure yourself without being employed or without drawing VA benefits or without governmental aid...

There are many things that will never fit into your views, but there are many things we are lucky to enjoy.

Edit: I often think of the first few words of the Constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Sadly, the U.S. have deserted these ideals.


David

[Edited 2012-08-28 03:34:42]

[Edited 2012-08-28 03:37:44]

[Edited 2012-08-28 03:39:45]
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5287
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

The majority of Wal-Mart employees qualify for government assistance (foodstamps, welfare, etc) because of their low wages. Wal-Mart is also the largest recipient of food stamps from its customers. Wal-Mart has aggressively lobbied to expand foodstamps even though it will increase government debt.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Any major accomplishments that DID go well ?

I guess putting a man on the moon was no accomplishment. You might want to tell Neil Armstrong's family that he accomplished nothing.

I guess building the largest interstate road network allowing for millions of businesses to thrive and grow was nothing. You know why Wal-Mart is successful, because they can easily ship goods across the country on a highway system that the government built!!

I guess managing the safest and largest (albeit not the most efficient) air traffic control system in the world is accomplishing nothing.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I'm merely pointing out what economists have known for
years; that private enterprise is many times as efficient more likely to succeed in
managing a large, complex "anything" than is government;

But you miss a critical point (that most conservatives miss), the government can take on projects that the private sector simply never would. Without government, there would be no military, no space program, no interstate highways, and no air traffic control because the risk of starting those programs was so high that the private sector would never touch them.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I have BAD news: It's ALREADY ruined;

Social Security is easily fixable. Means test it so that the wealthy don't receive it and age adjust it a few years and Social Security would last FOREVER.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
How long has Fed-Ex been in business ? Everytime I look.
they use keep getting bigger !
U.P.S. ? Even bigger and stronger !
( Even private mails delivery seems to catching on )
all while the USPS is "withering on the vine" !

Because old people (like you!!!) insist on keeping it around. The only reason the USPS struggles is because a bunch of conservative, Republican congressmen demand it serve every money-losing podunk little rural town in America.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5708
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
a.. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775.

234 years later, and it's broke, closing offices and may
go down the tube in the near future.
How long has Fed-Ex been in business ? Everytime I look.
they use keep getting bigger !
U.P.S. ? Even bigger and stronger !
( Even private mails delivery seems to catching on )
all while the USPS is "withering on the vine" !

Bad example

Neither Fed-Ex or UPS would be profitable if they were required to staff close to 10,000 offices in small towns which produce less than $50 income per day.

Neither Fed-Ex or UPS would be profitable if they were required to send a truck by every address in the country six days a week.

To most actual voters in this nation - free delivery of mail is an ESSENTIAL GOVERNMENT SERVICE, not subject to the reqirements necessary to run a profitable business.

Now if Congress wants to vote to remove the requirements to serve rural America and small towns with daily mail service and free delivery - they are welcome to do that.

Then the USPS would be able to stop the deficit spending.

Of course most of those 535 people in Congress would be looking for new jobs after the next election. (Which would be a good thing in my opinion.)
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
b.. Social Security was established in 1935.

74 years to get it right and it is broke.
It was a Ponzi scheme when it was started,
and it's still a Ponzi scheme; the only difference is....
the Federal Government runs it.
I'm real lucky on this one........it looks like it will "outlast" me....(barely)

I have no doubt that Social Security is a broken system, but you may want to check your definition of a Ponzi Scheme. A Ponzi Scheme would require an investment with promised incremental payouts to the investor. Social Security doesn't payout to the largest investors (those who pay the most tax) whatsoever.

Plus, a Ponzi Scheme requires vast amounts of fraud. If Social Security was that fraudulent, it wouldn't have lasted 74 years. All Ponzi Scemes come to a head sooner or later.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
d.. War on Poverty started in 1964

45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our
money is confiscated each year and
transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
The "poor" have always been with us and
they will ALWAYS be with us. ( there are many good
reasons for this, but that's another discussion for another time.)
( Poverty......only thing I can think of that may "outlast" bed rock ! )

I totally agree. Very few countries tackle poverty effectively. The two countries I've lived in (Canada and Australia) both have rather hypocritical (for lack of a better term) systems in place. We could probably start another thread on this topic alone.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
g.. The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our
dependence on foreign oil.

It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion
a year and we import more oil than ever before.
32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.
(It does however provide a very "cushy" lifestyle to
16,000 bureaucrats…..all at taxpayer's expense.)
This monster is so big that shutting it down completely
would likely cause a recession !

Well there are a few factors that doom the Department of Energy no matter what they do:

1) Demand for oil in the US is consistently on the rise.
2) Lobbying has held back alternative-fuel development for years. (only now are we seeing hybrids and electric cars gaining traction)
3) Peak oil

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Wal-Mart
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I'm merely pointing out what economists have known for
years; that private enterprise is many times as efficient more likely to succeed in
managing a large, complex "anything" than is government;

Do you know why Walmart is so efficient? It's because they are an incredibly unethical business. If the government treated their employees the way Walmart treats theirs, there would be revolt.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
( remember those $500 toilet seats, and those $150 claw hammers? ) (that YOU the taxpayer paid for ?)

The Toronto District School Board just had a scandal like this as well. Mind-blowing how much contractors can take you to the cleaners if there aren't controls in place.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
no
government in the history of the world has EVER done a great job
at managing a huge, complex economy for any significant period of time

What do you consider to be a "significant" period of time?
Flying refined.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:10 pm

Just a few item:

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
a.. The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775.

When was the "internet" established? I would claim that this it jhas been the #1 killer of the Post Office.


Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

Really? Not Apple?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

People in China speak English?
Step into my office, baby
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:17 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
I believe government not only doesn't have the answer to the problem.
I believe government IS "the problem".

Are you suggesting that we need to outsource the Government to Wal-Mart?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

Wal-Mart

1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.

2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!

3. Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick's Day (March
17th) than Target sells all year.

4. Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target +Sears +
Costco + K-Mart combined.

5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

7. Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger and Safeway combined, and
keep in mind they did this in only fifteen years.

8. During this same period, 31 big supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.

9. Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.

10. Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are
Super Centers; this is 1,000 more than it had five years ago.

11. This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur
at Wal-Mart stores. (Earth's population is approximately 6.5 Billion.)

12. 90% of all Americans live within fifteen miles of a Wal-Mart.

Your love letter to Walmart., has NOTHING to do with proving that the Government is the problem. In fact, it pitches other private companies against Walmart - proving that other private companies are not successful.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
All of this ranting and raving about Obama and Romney is really a
waste of time;

Yet - here we are; in your post

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
no
government in the history of the world has EVER done a great job
at managing a huge, complex economy for any significant period of time.

Quick - mention a country without Government that has done a successful job?

For the last time:

GOVERNMENT IS NOT A BUSINESS, IT CANNOT BE SEEN AS SUCH
Step into my office, baby
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5708
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
The above information is from exhaustive research on the internet, and
my personal observation.

Some how you have been able to do research and come up with a long post identical to a long circulated e-mail filled with bad 'facts' and unsupportable conclusions.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
remember those $500 toilet seats, and those $150 claw hammers?

The US Navy never paid $500 for a toilet seat. They paid $1,500 for a special build of an entire toilet enclosure for a P-3 aircraft after the production run was over and the stocks of spares was exhausted. That was a success of government procurement because Lockheed wanted $4,500 for the enclosure, and the Navy contracting officer challenged the price. Yes, it was listed as a 'toilet seat' because that is how the 7 foot tall by 3 ft wide by 28 inches deep item is described in the aircraft parts list.

The $150 hammer was a special alloy required for use in environments filled with possibly explosive gasses. It required custom alloys, special testing and certification. Yes it was expensive. Protecting the lives of our military troops often requires expensive items.

You've just quoted two completely false fictions invented by the media as fact. Perhaps more exhaustive research is in order.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Wal-Mart

1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.

2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!

Wal-Mart - you left out some facts.

1. The biggest employer of illegal aliens in the United States through their 'contractor' system.

2. The biggest drain on Medicaid of any company in the US due to their low wages and limited medical coverage options.

Wal-Mart cost every taxpayer in the US for subsidizing many of their employees with Medicaid and Food Stamps.

Wal-Mart is great for shareholders and as bad as the War on Poverty for taxpayers.
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

Agree 100%, seriously.

But I do love how the older generation has suddenly come to the realization that the big wasteful government that they built, maintained, and are feeding off at this very moment is 'no good'. A day late and a buck short I'd say.

If you feel so strongly about this, then I suggest that you don't cash your Social Security checks and don't accept any government medical benefits. That's pretty much all you can do to help at this point.

[Edited 2012-08-28 07:48:27]
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9929
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 4):
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Sadly, the U.S. have deserted these ideals.

We deserted them when people started thinking that "promote the general Welfare" meant "providing for the general Welfare". Promoting the general welfare means setting up the foundations, such as a legal system where contract law will be enforced (so that people can do business). If you read the Federalist Papers (unfortunately no longer taught in school - back in the 50s high school students would spend 6 months on the Federalist Papers), it is very clear that "promote the general Welfare" did not mean actually giving you stuff, redistribution of wealth etc.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
seb146
Posts: 14340
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
I guess managing the safest and largest (albeit not the most efficient) air traffic control system in the world is accomplishing nothing.

So that for-profit companies like FedEx and UPS can make profits. Let's see them build their own airports, hire their own controllers, set up their own guideance and see how profitable they are.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
Social Security is easily fixable. Means test it so that the wealthy don't receive it and age adjust it a few years and Social Security would last FOREVER.

Also, stop the politicians from writing IOUs from the SS fund.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
( remember those $500 toilet seats, and those $150 claw hammers? ) (that YOU the taxpayer paid for ?)

To for-profit companies trying to make even more money?

Companies like Wal-Mart, UPS, Black & Decker are there to make profits first and serve the consumer second. Unlike the government who, per the Constitution (which you say you love so much) is there for WE THE PEOPLE and not for profit.

Seems you have a problem with profit and greed, Geezer.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
That's my thoughts; You may now prove to me I'm wrong.

Your biggest problem is that you do not understand why we need governments. You complain about many things they do, which is fine. What isn’t fine is that you fail to understand why they do them and provide real alternatives.

You highlight private companies as examples of how it should be done. You completely miss the point that companies have one single task; put as much money as possible in their owner’s pockets. I’m not against that, it is how I make my living.

What you fail to consider is that companies are not interested in the good of anyone else. Everything they do is for the benefit of them. Nothing wrong so far because it means that as long as there is competition everyone benefits.

The problem is that there are many important things that are neglected in the company model. Companies do not care about the consequences their actions have on others. They do not care about employees's health. They do not care about what happens to their employee's when they no longer work there. They do not care about depletion of resources. They do not care about environmental effects.

This is why we need governments. To make sure everyone’s needs are considered. To balance the needs and rights of everyone, not just a few.

If you’re with me this far then we can start talking about how to make government more efficient.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

Really? Not Apple?

Apple is the most valuable, but by no means the largest.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

People in China speak English?

I'm sure your comment is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but all those manufacturers in China don't actually work for Walmart.

Quoting cmf (Reply 14):
You completely miss the point that companies have one single task; put as much money as possible in their owner’s pockets.

  
Flying refined.
 
Okie
Posts: 3607
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Companies like Wal-Mart, UPS, Black & Decker are there to make profits first and serve the consumer second

Actually you are a 180deg out of phase, if they do not serve the customer first then there are no profits. There is a long history of failed businesses that put themselves first and customers second, it is called Greed. GM would be one right off the top of my head.

I am no particular fan of Walmart either, they are what they are, I get to vote every time I go shopping. No one at this point is forcing me to shop at Walmart.

Okie
 
flyingturtle
Posts: 4754
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):

If you mean setting up foundations upon which the citizen can thrive (like the aforementioned legal system), I would be surprised if education, communication (like postal service and public roads) and healthcare wouldn't be meant by it. I agree with you if you say that the government has to fund and operate basic services.

I know that redistribution of wealth is a touchy subject here , but solidarity among citizen was, and I hope it still is, one of the core values of the U.S. More interesting than a crude wealth redistribution would be a tax on transferring money across country borders, thus forcing individuals and enterprises to spend and invest money at home. I have nothing against rich people, but seeing their money being invested in Asia and other emerging regions and seeing jobless people getting foodstamps in NY is bitter and unpatriotic.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
cmf
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 16):
Actually you are a 180deg out of phase, if they do not serve the customer first then there are no profits. There is a long history of failed businesses that put themselves first and customers second, it is called Greed

I see where you're coming from but you put the cart in front of the horse. The drive for the company is profit. A smart company realize they make more money by treating their customers well.

The company is always first. Customer gets what is good for the company.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
seb146
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:44 pm

Let's follow this logic through:

Federal government quits welfare of any kind. No food stamps, no WIC, no rental assistance, no assistance for college. There are billions wasted every month on corporate welfare, but let's keep it simple.

No food stamps for families means that minimum wage job they are working because the factory with the good paying job shut down and either decided not to reopen or moved to China can not pay the high rent (rental companies have to make a profit) and car payment (bank and car companies making profit) and utilities (water, gas, electric). "Oh, well, they can move" except they can not save any money to pay deposit at a smaller and cheaper place. "Sell the car" default on the loan and have no way to get to work. Transit would not work because government assisstance has been cut so mass transit is for-profit.

How long do you think a middle class family would survive?
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flyingturtle
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 16):
Actually you are a 180deg out of phase, if they do not serve the customer first then there are no profits. There is a long history of failed businesses that put themselves first and customers second, it is called Greed. GM would be one right off the top of my head.

I'd say that companies are interested in serving the customer if and only if there is money to earn. There are many, many things where customers could be made happy, but the business case for it is abysmal. For example, having a national company that carries out SAR by helicopter would be great. Which "customer" wouldn't want such a service?

If you can't look after your customers while ensuring your profits, you close your business and save what's left of the company's funds.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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Aesma
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:23 pm

EDF-GDF (Electricité de France-Gaz de France) was a state run utility company in France with no private competition. It owned every dam, nuclear power station, etc., and also provided natural gas to homes.

Since its privatization, it has been very successful as a company, buying utilities across Europe (it was a major sponsor of the London Olympics), providing good revenues to shareholders. Government agencies also allowed the company to keep its nuclear reactors running decades longer than what they were build for, a benefit of at least 100 billions euros. Of course, there is no private insurance in case of an accident, it will still be the taxpayer on the hook.

Consumers, on the other hand, see electricity and gas prices rise each year, several times a year even, and that's with the government still having a say on the matter and limiting the hikes, soon that will not be legal anymore. As far as I know water in dams is free, and uranium is cheap and doesn't account much in the cost of providing nuclear energy anyway.

At this point even right wing people regret the old public company, and both extreme right and extreme left parties' platforms include buying it back !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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casinterest
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
When was the "internet" established? I would claim that this it jhas been the #1 killer of the Post Office.

Better question, who funded the defense departement that funded Berkely where ARPANET was created? The forerunner of the internet?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
g.. The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our
dependence on foreign oil.

It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion
a year and we import more oil than ever before.

At the expense of the very envireonment we live in, Private companies will ignore alternatives that are not immediately cheaper. Government has a role here.
Ozone, PFC's, DDT, Benzene, Lead, asbestos, coal emmissions, wastewater runoff, and many other isuses.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Another great example; Apple Computer…………you may prefer "PC's"'
again……it really doesn't matter what we as individuals "like" of "prefer";

Who funded ENIAC? The government of WW2 and beyond funded computers and development long before industry made them cheap and affordable in the 80's.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Afraid of "ruining Social Security ? I have BAD news: It's ALREADY ruined;

It's not ruined. It needs to be adjusted, but that is due to advances in healthcare and services that keep folks that are beyond working years around quite a bit longer than they used to be. But we could do away with those services and see what happens? Is that what you propose?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
six trillion in debt in less than 4 years, then vote for him

Would you prefer the bailouts didn't happen, that folks didn't get government assistance? Would you prefer folks gave up on this country since it gave up on them and resort to violence to get what they need to survive?

Would you prefer to remember that of that 6 trillion in debt, 90% of it was guaranteed due to existing laws? Probably not. you would prefer to label it a vast liberal conspiracy berift of the cpnsequences involving actions of cutting taxes in 2001 , and going to war in 2001 and 2003 , With a housing bubble to complicate it all.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
huge, complex economy for

Here you say the key words. Huge and complex. In this world with multiplle needs. Complexity truly escapes the folks that try to oversimplify.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
windy95
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 4):
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Sadly, the U.S. have deserted these ideals.

Yes America was finished the day that the meaning of promote the general welfare of the Union became provide for the general welfare of individuals with someone else's money
 
flyingturtle
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):

The poor are always educated using somebody else's money. The poors' health is sustained using somebody else's money. Redistribution is always taking place in one form or another. Not sharing your success with your fellow citizen is, in my opinion, like a secession from the rest of the country.

In Germany, the rich do not whine - and we even have "Sozialpflicht" (social duty) in the constitution. Private property is respected, but it has to be used in a manner that benefits the common good.

And believe me, welfare is provided to the well-off. We could have let the failed banks rot and collapse, but we decided otherwise. Our "help" for Greece is mainly helping that country to pay interest to German and French banks, not helping that country run hospitals and schools.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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2707200X
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:59 pm

Ever since Ronald Reagan said "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem", the right has been making the argument to shrink government to as Grover Norquist once said "small enough to drown in a bathtub".

I think a lot of the people who think government is to large have benefited themselves was well as their parents from "big" government ideas such as the G.I. Bill to help with education and moving in to new homes, social security to care for those over 65 and Pell grants for college education. We can talk about what needs to stay ans what needs to go in government but how far will critics go to shrink government, how much are they going to take from teacher hiring and pay as well as firefighters and police and other first responders and how far do they want to raise tuition for college, what used to be a zero tuition for community college is now $50+ per unit in many places and state university, tuition is or will be almost comparable to the tuitions of private institutions, all in the name of paying less taxes?

[Edited 2012-08-28 12:02:33]
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
Ken777
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
234 years later, and it's broke, closing offices and may
go down the tube in the near future.

The Post Office isn't "broke", but it is cash starved - a deliberate act of Congress. Guess which political party is pushing hard to get them out.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
How long has Fed-Ex been in business ? Everytime I look.
they use keep getting bigger !

Fed Ex doesn't go to every house in every neighborhood. The Post Office does.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
U.P.S. ? Even bigger and stronger !

Same with UPS.

People look down their noses at the Post Office, but don't spend the time to understand that it is the one system that handles the "junk mail" and also does a lot with companies like eBay.

You might not like junk mail, but the fact that it continues to be delivered demonstrates that it is profitable.

My son does some eBay selling and the PO has a very effective system for them. He can print out a full mailing label (with postage paid) for all sales and drop them off at the local PO - without standing in line. I've taken a few packages in for him and the local offices are always busy. If you stand around some of the offices you will see a lot of people delivering their eBay packages.

Bit odd, but the Post Office does a pretty good job of serving the really small businesses in the US. Better performance at a lower cost.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
74 years to get it right and it is broke.

It's not broke - it has loaned a lot of money out to the US Treasury (far better than our sloppy private financial sector) and it has provided a critical flow of funds to the elderly. It can continue to do so IF current workers man up and make adjustments like their fathers an grandfathers and great grand fathers did.

It is critical to understand that if we let the wealthy in this country shred Social Security then we will end up with a level of poverty in this country that will make us look like a banana republic.

And, when you look at "encouraging" younger people to save you need a list of factors in front of you:

- The minimum wage and the likelihood that it will be increased to at least the poverty line.
- The costs of health care, exploding at a faster level that the wages paid to working Americans
- The costs of educating your kids to their level of competency
- The lifetime burden that many Americans have with their student loans

Reality is that America is changing for those in the Middle Class - or who used to be in the Middle Class. You take away Social Security from those younger people who are struggling in this "New Century America" and you are leaving them with a crisis that will make the Great Depression look like a walk in the park.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
71 years to get it right but it's still broke

And how many Americans were able to buy their homes before the financial & home sectors started playing games and ripping people (and the country) off?

I can remember buying my first house on the GI BIll. A new neighborhood of starter homes and some of the families were able to buy under the 235 program. Amazing that a "government program" like the GI Bill or the 235 program can be well run and not ripped off by the financial sector.

Take a look at the private sector side of that government/private sector program.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our
money is confiscated each year and
transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.

I can understand your preference to have serfs come and serve you. At least now we have sufficient illegal immigrants who will do some work fairly cheaply.

as far as paying out your tax dollars, remember that as long as you keep the minimum wage below the poverty line you will be paying out your tax dollars for food stamps, medicaid, rent support, etc. It is called Corporate Welfare.

You want it changed then the first step is to have minimum wage above the poverty line.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
44 years to get it right and it's STILL broke.
This is the one that I have LOTS of first hand knowledge of !

I can remember talking to a retired surgeon some years back. He was talking about the changes in medicine and a key comment was that he did about half his surgeries for free - he knew the patients could not afford to pay. He was proud of that, and he was proud of a profession where that was common. His comments about today's medicine were not as complimentary. In his (experienced) view medicine was more about money than ever before.

So what if Medicare has problems. As long as taxpayers get hit with a 15% premium for the private sector Medicare Advantage there will be unnecessary costs.

And as long as we don't spend the money to catch those committing Medicare fraud we will be overpaying.

And, of course, as long as we don't have a system that ensures legitimate providers get paid for every patient they provide services, tests, procedures for then the pricing system is screwed.

How many times over the years have you been told that prices are going up because the system has to provide for those who can't pay? I remember some years back that New York CIty was the worst - over half of the patients in the hospital would not be able to pay.

How many years have we had that jacked up health insurance premiums based on the same system?

You're a smart guy - you can figure that out.

You can also figure out that as we move to a larger percentage of patients being paid for we will have the right to pay LESS for each visit, text, procedure, etc.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Any major accomplishments that DID go well ?

TVA, Hoover Dam, WPA, Neil Armstrong's "walk", the recent touch down on Mars, (actually NASA in general), development of Carrier Battle Groups, the Interstate System, ATC (still underfunded), the Post Office

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
So far, we have prevailed
in most of the wars we've been in;

Even the totally unnecessary ones. How long did W's Ego War in Iraq last? I really can't call that a success - it was a Conservative Cluster Phuck from the moment it was conceived.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
we have the best Army in history,

And we are having some major problems coming out of that Army. Did you catch yesterday's news on the militia murders and plans to overtake the country - part of Today's Army. I'm sure you remember Tim McVey - he was in the Army during GW I.

And we have an Army that has rising rates of suicide, another indication that we need to take a really hard look at the Army, and how it has been abused by the politicians in the recent past.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Now, with this track record as "proof of it's expertise, government
now decides that it can better manage our entire health care system.

They do a pretty good job, with the major problems being the crooks and the private insurance companies that need that 15% excess. Medicare Advantage was supposed to be a way to prove that the private sedtor could do a better job than the government. That 15% excess was supposed to be a short term situation for ramping up the operations.

How's that "short term" looking to you? How's that extra 15% look to you? Think it's something that should be addressed in ObamaCare? Maybe it is.  

My preference is to go to a system like I experienced in Australia. Take employer nanny care off the backs of employers and make it a tax based system for CORE care. That doesn't get you a private room unless you medically need it. It doesn't let you choose your doctor when you go to the hospital - you might get a resident if that is all you need. You might end up in a 8 to 12 bed ward (which can deliver equal or better nursing care).

That kids of program cuts 80% of the costs of today's private health insurance, making it clear that the private approach simply does not out perform public health systems. If it did we would not be behind 20+ countries in health care performance.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!

And they pay employees how much an hour to start?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
During this same period, 31 big supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.

A lot of companies have been hit hard by The Great Recession.

In the supermarket/food industry you're generally seeing the smaller companies that had stores close to a neighborhood that are the ones failing.

The exception I know of is Braums. Small stores serving neighborhoods and doing very well. Went there yesterday for some milk. A fraction of the effort of going to WalMart and similar pricing. It's not all WalMart these days - there are some cracks developing.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people, is the world's largest private
employer, and most speak English.

And how many of those employees qualify for government programs like Food Stamps?

What percentage will be able to pay for health care if they are in a serious accident, or get a nasty diagnosis?

What percentage will be able to buy a modest home some day?

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

And yet little old Apple is more valuable in terms of Market Cap. You would think WalMart would be worth twice as much as little old Apple. Did you know that you can take one of each product Apple sells and they will fit on a dining room table. Actually, they may all fit on top of a card table.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
Yes America was finished the day that the meaning of promote the general welfare of the Union became provide for the general welfare of individuals with someone else's money

It is hard for many to admit but the main reason welfare is needed is because companies are not paying people enough. It doesn't make sense that the lowest paid full time worker often is making less than 50th, often much less, than the highest paid. That just having to take a child to get vaccination means there will not be money left for food.

The extremists like to paint a picture of lazy people sitting in a sofa watching TV while drinking beer and eating chips. Sure it happens but it isn't the typical welfare receiver. It is much more likely that they are working two or more part time jobs and just break even on a good month but go back every time there is even the smallest problem. Just the two days lost pay because of the hurricane warning we had here in Miami is enough to make a mark.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 20):
I'd say that companies are interested in serving the customer if and only if there is money to earn.

Well if there wasn't money to earn, the company wouldn't exist in the first place...

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):

I think you misunderstand the point being made. Nothing was said about quitting welfare outright, but rather that it needs some very serious reform.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 25):
Ever since Ronald Reagan said "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem", the right has been making the argument to shrink government to as Grover Norquist once said "small enough to drown in a bathtub".

That might be the case in the U.S., but right-of-centre parties in other countries have been pushing for smaller government all the same, which of course cannot be attributed to Reagan whatsoever.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
And yet little old Apple is more valuable in terms of Market Cap. You would think WalMart would be worth twice as much as little old Apple. Did you know that you can take one of each product Apple sells and they will fit on a dining room table. Actually, they may all fit on top of a card table.

In the tech sector huge margins are the norm. Once R&D costs are covered (which doesn't take much these days since they're starting to just recycle their product plans), Apple makes truckloads of profit. Whereas the Walmarts of the world who operate heavily in the grocery and household goods sectors, only a 1-2% margin for grocery, and ~5-33% margin for household goods, is possible.

You're comparing apples to oranges (literally ).
Flying refined.
 
smittyone
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Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
Yes America was finished the day that the meaning of promote the general welfare of the Union became provide for the general welfare of individuals with someone else's money


The government takes my money and uses it to directly support people on Food Stamps etc. The government also takes my money and spends it on agencies, activities, and policies that intentionally benefit a select group of individuals and commercial interests. In both cases the theory is that taking my money and using it to help someone else is justifiable for the 'greater good'.

Obviously there are abuses of the system, but I think that some limited assistance to people earnestly trying to succeed does promote "the general welfare of the Union".

[Edited 2012-08-28 12:51:12]
 
Geezer
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:44 pm

This "experiment" is turning out just as I suspected it would; it has already caused a bunch of people to respond, some of which do have some good ideas.

About Wal Mart; it's a funny thing about Wal Mart; I have a book which was written about Wal Mart, by a fellow who contends that Wal Mart is the biggest menace in the history of the world ! According to him, any town having a Wal Mart Superstore is DOOMED ! And that Wal Mart treats their employees like Stalin treated people in his "gulags"; It was a very interesting book; I actually agreed with some of it; yet, we have a "dinky" Wal Mart in Brazil (10 miles down the road from here) and I have yet to find a single employee who is upset or disgruntled about the way they are treated. We have a Wal Mart Superstore in the far south side of Terre Haute, ( about 25 miles away ) and I can't find anyone complaining there either;

Then, about 3 or 4 yrs ago, Wal Mart built yet another Superstore on the far east side of Terre Haute, (which is about 20 miles away), and it has become my favorite Wal Mart of the three. I know a fellow in Ohio who works as a truck driver for WM's big distribution center in Seymour, Indiana, and he's absolutely ecstatic about working there ! He LOVES his job ! ( Very few truck drivers feel that way about their companies)

So......is Wal Mart "good" ? or is it "bad" ? I'd say it all depends on your point of view; a lot of people working there are damned glad to have their jobs, I can tell you that; could they "do better ? Of course they could; (if they had a better education and had spent a little more time preparing themselves for a better "career". But most people don't do that....most people stay at the bottom of the economic ladder because they fail to take the necessary steps up to the next rung.

My own personal "feelings" about Wal Mart ? It's "handy".......I take advantage of the "good parts" and go elsewhere for other things. I'm very aware of the people "at the top" who make the "big bucks" from Wal Mart; they're just like everyone else "at the top".....selfish, greedy, and very, very comfortable ! Love it or hate it, Wal Mart is very successful, and I don't see it "going away" any time soon.

One thing about Wal Mart that few are aware of, and which fascinates me........the lighting, heating and cooling in all Wal Mart stores is operated "remotely" from Bentonville, Arkansas ! ( Go figure !)

Now......the USPS; I'd wear out my keyboard trying to tackle that one; believe me, I'm very well aware of the USPS need to provide service to a HUGE range of "podunk" areas........I live in "podunk" ! USPS has been about to close our dinky little 12 X 12 post office for two years now; suddenly, about a month ago, we hear that they have now decided to leave it open, (but closed on Saturday; (Yay ! go USPS ! ) I might also mention, both Fed Ex and UPS have their delivery truck on our dusty gravel road, 5 days a week.)

The United States Government...............I'm afraid many have "misread" me on that one; I'm completely aware of all the many things the government has done; ( and the Interstate Highway System certainly is a classic example of a project that I'm sure glad they built ! ( remember........I've driven a big truck on about 92% (rough estimate) of it. ( I can show you a few miles of it and a few multi million dollar bridges that don't lead to anywhere, and have never had a single vehicle on them though.) ( poor planning, maybe ?)

I'm also aware of the the Air Traffic Control System........(I wouldn't crow too loud about the ATC system though.......it is seriously "out dated" and in need of being "up-dated")

Overall, I'm actually about as satisfied with our government as most people are, possibly more than some and less than others. But it's just that it's TOO Damned big ! Parts of it are collapsing under their own weight; and unless some serious steps are not taken soon, the whole damn thing is going to collapse. The U.S. Government is at the moment, like a big truck barreling down the Interstate, weaving from side to side, all because there's a drunken driver at the wheel; this scenario doesn't need a different truck.........it just needs a different driver !

What a few TOTALLY misread me on............I didn't say anything about "ending welfare"; I'm talking about who we pay the welfare to; BTW.......that leads to a whole new subject; if anyone takes the time and effort to really study the welfare system, check out just WHO is getting all the welfare money, you'll soon see what I'm talking about. ( it's really not nearly as perplexing as the old "which came first, the chicken or the egg ?" ) If you take a look at "how things were" in,say, 1800, you'd see that: 99% of new born babies had two parents........a mother who stayed home, kept house, cooked the food, and took care of the kids; and a father who went to work, earned income to buy the food, (and anything else needed).....and there wasn't any "welfare"; (it's still like that in a few places) now it goes like this: 9th grade girl gets "hot", 16 yr old nogoodnik (who tuned out and dropped out at age 10, has no idea who DAD is, knows that MOM is out "creating" more "siblings").......and they ALL have to eat, right ? gotta have a 60 inch flat screen TV to watch MTV, right ? gotta have something to "get high, right ? It all take cash........gotta have that welfare check to pay for "stuff". where do these folks think all the bucks are coming from ? they don't CARE ! all they "care" is......the system sez.....they got "rights" !
THAT'S what I'm saying needs to go!

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
How long do you think a middle class family would survive?

What you have just described ISN'T a "middle class" family; if you want to pay for groceries, a car, a TV, the rent, for people who are too sorry, too ignorant, too lazy, too anything else to help themselves..........have at it ! ( you can pay for me too while you're at it, cause I aint gonna ! ( ever hear "charity starts at home" )

Quoting okie (Reply 16):
GM would be one right off the top of my head.

Now there's one that I have a fair bit of knowledge about; while many people are bashing Wal Mart , they have never worked for, (or around) a GM plant; although I have never been a GM employee per se, I DID spend 25 years hauling their cars from their assembly plants to dealers in all lower 48 states; GM is one huge pain in the ass to work for ! They saw themselves as the "800 pound gorilla" ( but the "gorilla" is now a dinky little monkey, with a tin cup in his hand, looking for a "hand out" )
GM put themselves right where they ended up; (and if they keep on coming out with crap like I keep seeing on the street, they're soon gonna have to get the tin cup back out !)

Quoting cmf (Reply 14):
What you fail to consider is that companies are not interested in the good of anyone else. Everything they do is for the benefit of them. Nothing wrong so far because it means that as long as there is competition everyone benefits.

The problem is that there are many important things that are neglected in the company model. Companies do not care about the consequences their actions have on others. They do not care about employees's health. They do not care about what happens to their employee's when they no longer work there. They do not care about depletion of resources. They do not care about environmental effects.

This is why we need governments. To make sure everyone’s needs are considered. To balance the needs and rights of everyone, not just a few.

cmf........you may be surprised, but I not only realize all of that, I actually AGREE with it ! Remember when Chrysler nearly went belly up maybe 10, 15 years ago ? and the Feds bailed them out ? I was all for that ! Cause it WORKED ! The difference was, they had someone who knew how to drive in the driver's seat; It saved a lot of jobs, they paid all the money back, and all was well; (plus I made a few bucks back-hauling Chrysler products from their plants) I think Chrysler has done a much better job than GM since then; but when times got tough again, they both went down; while we're on that topic, why do you suppose Toyota and Nissan have done so well, in spite of all the economic difficulties ! I think it's better management, and workers who are willing to give 8 hours of work for 8 hrs of pay.

If you’re with me this far then we can start talking about how to make government more efficient.

That's precisely what I'm screaming about ! I'm not calling for a end of government; I only want it managed properly and efficiently; and as long as the current gang is in the WH, that has no chance of happening.

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
I'm not calling for a end of government; I only want it managed properly and efficiently; and as long as the current gang is in the WH, that has no chance of happening.

You can count on one hand the number of people in Washington, DC that have a genuine interest in a smaller, leaner government that collects and spends less money. The only difference between the Democratic and Republican parties is who they prefer to take the money from and who they prefer to spend it on.
 
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casinterest
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
and as long as the current gang is in the WH, that has no chance of happening.

But this is where I disagree. The WH is not the end all be all of the issues we are in. They are the executive branch.
Congress has more to do with where we are then anything else. It is easier to lay the blame at the WH, as it is one person. 535 folks are much harder to point fingers at.

Years of increasing budgets without the income to balance budgets. The current defict occurred because when the recession happened people that were not taking in Government assistance were paying into it, and then when the recession happened, the revenue left, but the government as a whole paid out support to states and individuals that needed assistance. The Government also bailed out huge corporations for the general welfare. Was that budgeted for? Was that planned? No. However it did happen, and as they say, the buck stops with the Federal Government

Congress has a hard time balancing budgets because we the people demand the services that are already in place. Just look at the panic over cutting just a piece of defense spending. the same problem would happen no matter where you cut the federal budget. their are private businesses that would go belly up because of these cuts.
Sure things could be more efficient and cheaper, but go ak the folks that have lost their jobs to people overseas what they earn now vs then..

//edit fixed some wording, and number of members of congress. ( I forgot to count senators).

[Edited 2012-08-28 13:49:12]
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ER757
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
I might also mention, both Fed Ex and UPS have their delivery truck on our dusty gravel road, 5 days a week.)

Then you don't live as far in the boonies as you think you do  
Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
now it goes like this: 9th grade girl gets "hot", 16 yr old nogoodnik (who tuned out and dropped out at age 10, has no idea who DAD is, knows that MOM is out "creating" more "siblings").

Bingo! Here's how it should work - you are on welfare and you have a kid? OK, things happen, we'll help you out. You have a 2nd kid? Well too bad, you're on your own with that one - we'll let you slide once but now you know where they come from so you should take steps necessary to keep that from happening again unless you can support them on your own.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
But it's just that it's TOO Damned big ! Parts of it are collapsing under their own weight; and unless some serious steps are not taken soon, the whole damn thing is going to collapse.

Agreed - but here's the BIG problem. Everybody in congress wants to make those cuts in someone else's district. Until EVERYONE is willing to agree we've got to cut back across the board, the bloated beast that is the US Government will continue to swell
 
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casinterest
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 33):
we'll let you slide once but now you know where they come from so you should take steps necessary to keep that from happening again unless you can support them on your own.

But, wait.... That might require Birth Control, Abortion, or Adoption services that would cost the government money   .
And out of those three, which is more expensive and lobbyed for by the GOP?

That's a catch 22.
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Aesma
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 28):
That might be the case in the U.S., but right-of-centre parties in other countries have been pushing for smaller government all the same, which of course cannot be attributed to Reagan whatsoever.

I'd say he and Thatcher had a strong influence around the world, mostly for the worst. Now, I don't know how much Reagan shrunk the government, if at all, but I've often read here that during his presidency taxes were higher, so why does the GOP, including even its most reasonable members, is hell bent on tax cuts, especially when the deficit and debt are so enormous ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
flyingturtle
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 35):
is hell bent on tax cuts

I've always wondered how lowered taxes would spur economic growth. High taxes make it harder to run a business, but not impossible. And even in the most adverse of the circumstances, people will start businesses.

After all, all the tax revenues have to be spent somehow, and the only important factor I can think of is the percentage of people employed by the government, as the government does not really earn something if it taxes its own employees.

Concerning the government spending quota, the U.S. have 39%. This is nothing to worry about in international comparison, even if you acknowledge the large defense budget. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governm...nal_government_spending_per_capita .)


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
StarAC17
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
Neither Fed-Ex or UPS would be profitable if they were required to staff close to 10,000 offices in small towns which produce less than $50 income per day.

Neither Fed-Ex or UPS would be profitable if they were required to send a truck by every address in the country six days a week.

People forget that postal services have an obligation to serve everyone and often people of the OP's age group are probably not as tech savvy to receive their bills online and do everything electronic. So they are more reliant on the postal service.

For all the people complaining about the USPS go to fedex/ups or the post office to send a birthday card and see which one is cheaper.

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
Listed below are some of the Federal Government's attempts to manage
things, none of which has "worked" all that well;

I discredit your argument on the basis that you talk about all the government eff ups that piss you off.

Where is your argument on defense where they have a budget that the GOP want to increase that basically goes to contractors that develop things that really have no practical purpose.

Also the colossal mess that is the War on Drugs which can never be won, which is given a blank check by your federal government.
I base this on two certainties of humans, they will always want to get high or get laid. No legislation is going to stop either.

Regarding the War on Drugs it affects us in Canada as we want to at the least decriminalize pot, but the day we do we will deal with so much grief from the US it isn't worth it.
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CupraIbiza
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:37 am

Maybe a tour of Mogadishu is in order. There has been no functioning government in Somalia for the last 20 years.
Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
 
seb146
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:01 am

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 30):
What you have just described ISN'T a "middle class" family;

Actually.... it is....

Sadly, people like Mitt Romney have shipped jobs over seas thinking it helps America because the individual (Romney) gets HUGE tax credits for doing this. Does it trickle down? No. We have waited 30 years for the trickle down. We get nothing except higher prices at the store and pump and banks for loans and people like Mitt Romney putting their money in tax havens in Cayman Islands, Bahamas, and Switzerland. So much for faith in American banks and American people. We have not gotten any higher pay we were promised with trickle-down economics.

Let's try trickle up economics for 30 years and see which spurs the economy more.

Just a thought...
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
flyingturtle
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:23 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
Let's try trickle up economics for 30 years and see which spurs the economy more.

  

This isn't a socialist thought. It is basic economy.

Most if not all of the money given to a welfare aid recipient will be spent locally and almost immediately. Perhaps they can save 1 or 2 percent of the monthly income for future expenses. That way, they directly pay other people's wages in their own region.

The middle class (if it isn't starved yet) is able to save money, lay the foundations for their childrens, give them a good education, and they still spend reasonable amounts of money to prop up the everyday economy.

With the upper class, well. That isn't the case anymore. They often open new businesses and employ people. But where? And still most of their earnings go into securities, bonds and stocks.

A schoolteacher of mine once said: "Saving is good, but if others are doing it, it's bad." True.


http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-things-rich-people-need-to-stop-saying/ answers a few things. Cracked.com is often a good read.



David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
windy95
Posts: 2660
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 24):
Not sharing your success with your fellow citizen is, in my opinion, like a secession from the rest of the country.

But that is where we differ. I do share my success with my fellow citizens. But I share with the charity of my choice not the charity or YOUR choice. Stop forcing me to partake in your charities and we wil be just fine. The way it was for a long time in this country.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 24):
that benefits the common good

Whose idea of common good?

Quoting cmf (Reply 27):
It is hard for many to admit but the main reason welfare is needed is because companies are not paying people enough.

What??? It is no the companies job to pay what you deem a to be a fair amount. The main reason welfare is needed is because to mamny people who should not procreate do and leave raise those kids on someone elses dime. The main reason is that Americans have become lazy and reliant on others. The main reason is that they do not wnato to do the job's that the illegals are doing?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 28):
Nothing was said about quitting welfare outright, but rather that it needs some very serious reform.

Correct

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 29):
Obviously there are abuses of the system, but I think that some limited assistance to people earnestly trying to succeed does promote "the general welfare of the Union".

These item's you talk about are the job of the states not the Feds. Stop taking the money from the states and laundering it throught the White House and Congress and leave it in the states where it will do the most good. The welfare clause is not for individuals but for the states and Federal government themselves.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 34):
But, wait.... That might require Birth Control, Abortion, or Adoption services that would cost the government money .

So they can afford smokes, drinks and other crap but not the $ it takes to buy their own condom? How about being responsible for themselves. And once again this is not an area the Federal Government should be in.

Quoting cupraibiza (Reply 38):
Maybe a tour of Mogadishu is in order. There has been no functioning government in Somalia for the last 20 years

Never heard that one before  
Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
Sadly, people like Mitt Romney have shipped jobs over seas thinking

Please show me all the jobs that he has sent over seas. And then show me how many jobs he created. And when you are done with that show us how many jobs Obama shipped overseas with his policies and how many he created before he came to office.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 40):
Most if not all of the money given to a welfare aid recipient will be spent locally and almost immediately.

But those stores are just getting back what was stolen from them by the feds in the first place. There is no net gain to the system.
 
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casinterest
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:56 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
So they can afford smokes, drinks and other crap but not the $ it takes to buy their own condom? How about being responsible for themselves. And once again this is not an area the Federal Government should be in.

But the federal government, state Governments and Local Goverments do find themselves involvedin it. , as the failure by these folks to use birth control, results in future abortions which costs more. And if the abortion isn't recieved due to expense, it results in kids that in high percentages wind up unwanted or in extremely broken homes that result in Foster Care, and or children's homes which we all wind up paying for. At a much higher cost.

So yes the federal goverrment should be involved.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 37):
Regarding the War on Drugs it affects us in Canada as we want to at the least decriminalize pot, but the day we do we will deal with so much grief from the US it isn't worth it.

  

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
Let's try trickle up economics for 30 years and see which spurs the economy more.

What you propose is taking away the wealth from the job creators. Let's see how long they stick around under this "trickle up" plan.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 40):
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-things-rich-people-need-to-stop-saying/ answers a few things. Cracked.com is often a good read.

I liked Cracked. It's entertaining. But whoever wrote that artcicle clearly has a certain object stuck up a certain orifice.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
So they can afford smokes, drinks and other crap but not the $ it takes to buy their own condom? How about being responsible for themselves. And once again this is not an area the Federal Government should be in.

It's funny, I buy cigars, liquor, and all that fun stuff...and I can count on one hand the number of time I've actually purchased condoms with my own money. There are programs up here that offer free condoms; all you have to do is head to the main health office dowtown and pick them up. They're even conveniently placed in brown paper bags on a table near the front door in case you're "too embarrassed". Not to mention that every high school and post-secondary institution offers free protection to its student body.

If people accidentally get pregnant, it's because they were either A) using incredibly poor judgment, or B) too lazy to go out and get the free condoms. Of course I say this as a resident of Ontario, so this may not be how things work down in the States.
Flying refined.
 
smittyone
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
These item's you talk about are the job of the states not the Feds. Stop taking the money from the states and laundering it throught the White House and Congress and leave it in the states where it will do the most good. The welfare clause is not for individuals but for the states and Federal government themselves.

I can't really argue with that - you could make a very long list of state powers and responsibilities that have been taken usurped. Of course empowering the states would decrease the ability of office seekers at the Federal level to use the Bread and Circuses approach.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):
6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.

That'as not true Walmart is smaller than ExxonMobile and Royal Dutch Shell.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
When was the "internet" established? I would claim that this it jhas been the #1 killer of the Post Office.

Which is odd because withy the advent of internet shopping many postal services around the world are booming, what the lose in letters they make up for in parcel and package deliveries.
 
mt99
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 45):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
When was the "internet" established? I would claim that this it jhas been the #1 killer of the Post Office.

Which is odd because withy the advent of internet shopping many postal services around the world are booming, what the lose in letters they make up for in parcel and package deliveries.

In the US most (?) package deliveries seem to go to UPS and FedEx, The post office used to handle bill payments, which can be done automatically or via the web - which i think would have been the the bulk of the snail mail traffic.
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LMP737
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Thread starter):

All of this ranting and raving about Obama and Romney is really a
waste of time; If you still think Obama can do the job, after running up
six trillion in debt in less than 4 years, then vote for him. (and tell me you worry about Social Security!)
Afraid of "ruining Social Security ? I have BAD news: It's ALREADY ruined;
you can just borrow so much money without paying it back; and you can only print
so much worthless paper money before people will be burning it for fuel; if you doubt that
I suggest you read about Germany, post WW 1.

I really didn't want to say this on a forum, because it violates a rule I
have with myself……..I don't like to criticize anyone's religion;
however…….I have read the entire history of the Church Of Latter
Day Saints…….and I've read much of the Book Of Mormon; I have
never felt that I would advocate someone who is Mormon to be the
POTUS; Under the present circumstances, I've changed my mind
about that. ( I really don't think Mitt Romney is out to "convert"
anyone to his religion. )

You're going to vote for a republican becaue you think that they will fix the mess we are currently in? Here's a bit of news for you, we are in the mess we are in part because of the republicans.

All you have to do is open up a history book to find that out. Under Ronald Reagan the size of the federal deficit and federal governement grew. The same goes for Bush 44. Here's the problem the republicans seem to have. While they accuse the democrats of "tax and spend" they seem to have no problem spending money. They just seem to be unable, or unwilling, to find a way to pay for it all.

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012...ding-federal-budget-drunken-sailor
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Geezer
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RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:25 pm

Congress has more to do with where we are then anything else. It is easier to lay the blame at the WH, as it is one person. 535 folks are much harder to point fingers at.
[/quote]


It's not quite accurate to say that the WH is "one person"; there are dozens of "bureaucrats" working in the WH also, and they are all trying to "out spend" each other !

And the "535 folks" you mentioned........that's where the REAL problems start ! Only it isn't "535"..........every one of those "535" have about 100 people "on staff", all of whom are receiving anywhere from 50K (for new hires and office boys) to 150K for "senior staffers", all of whom do exactly what ? That's a question that needs to be seriously "looked into"!

And if all of this isn't bad enough, we can go back and take another hard cold look at Mrs. Obammy's 100 person, personal "staff", some of whom are receiving more than some bank presidents ! And again, for doing exactly WHAT ?


But back to Congress; there is no doubt in anyone's mind that Congress is the single biggest spending, out of control entity in the history of the world. ( Anyone remember the big House "loan" scandal of a few years ago ?) And the Senate "Page" system; a bunch of young kids, supposedly to run around and act as "gofers, etc, for several hundred "adult" so-called "lawmakers", (many of whom turn out to be individuals of extremely questionable moral repute", and a few of whom have used said Pages as "playthings", (for wont of a better word).

Maybe the House of Representatives and the Senate should hire a couple of retired Marine Corps Sgt-Majors to act as "watch dogs" to "keep an eye on" all of this inter-action between adults and teenagers, the better to eliminate all of this "hanky-panky"? ( And of course, giving them the authority to "knock heads" when they see fit ? )

In starting this thread, it was my idea to attempt to point out the relative in-efficiency of government bureaucracy as compared to private sector efficiency; I had no delusions that it would work ! And it hasn't; instead, everyone (or almost everyone) is attempting to show me how "well" the U.S. Postal Service has worked; I think pretty nearly everyone in the U.S. has a good idea of how well it has worked; while you point out, how "nice" it was to mail letters from coast to coast for 3 cents (a few years ago), and all of the dinky little "podunk" villages that they have offices is, you have already shown a remarkable lack of knowledge about the events of the past few years; all of those dinky little Post Offices you allude to...........many of them NO LONGER EXIST; ( I can give you 3 or 4 examples just within a few miles of where I live if you'd like. ) And the "Post Office closings" is just getting started ! Terre Haute, Indiana for example, isn't exactly a "small town"; ( Indiana State University and two large hospitals ), yet just 2 months ago, 80% of the TH Post Office function was moved to, and "consolidated with" the Post Office in Indianapolis, 80 miles east of TH. I might also point out.........UPS and Fed Ex BOTH have daily delivery on every gravel back road in Parke County, Vigo County, Clay County, and Putnam County, (And that's just ones around nearby that I'm familiar with)

Then you say.....oh, but they cost more ! To which I would point out to you......."everything costs more !" and it's my suspicion that everything is very likely going to keep right on costing more ! There's a very good reason for all of this "costing more", but it's off topic so I'll leave that for another day (or another thread).

A few have mentioned, "private companies just don't PAY ENOUGH !" To which I would ask, "how much IS "enough" ? I worked in private industry from 1950 until 1997, and I don't remember anyone who thought he was receiving "enough"; if you ever read a few books dealing with economics, you will find that, as a general rule, "workers tend to be paid in direct proportion to the difficulty of replacing them". In other words, if you flip burgers, and you decide to quit, it isn't gonna take long to "train" your replacement ! If you are a world class violinist, and concert master in a big symphony orchestra, it's going to take MUCH longer ! ( that's why they get paid more )

Now........we come to the so-called "minimum wage" law; everyone has to have "so much" to avoid being in "poverty", right ? All liberals are going to answer a resounding YES to that question ! While conservatives ( who, while possibly may not be "smarter", are, as a general rule, much more attuned to reality ), and would immediately answer that question with, "no one is "guaranteed" anything, as far as pay is concerned; smart people prepare themselves to be able to do better paying jobs, (while "poor" people "go with the flow" so-to-speak" and always depend on "other people" to "look out" for them. That is the essence of what I'm attempting to point out.


Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
LMP737
Posts: 4923
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: More Government Is Not The Answer

Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 48):
Congress has more to do with where we are then anything else. It is easier to lay the blame at the WH, as it is one person. 535 folks are much harder to point fingers at.

And who controlled the House and Senate for six of the eight years of the Bush Administration? What excuse do the republicans have for exploding the national debt and increasing the size of government? The GOP also controlled the Senate the first six years of the Reagan Administration.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 48):
While conservatives ( who, while possibly may not be "smarter", are, as a general rule, much more attuned to reality ), and would immediately answer that question with, "no one is "guaranteed" anything, as far as pay is concerned; smart people prepare themselves to be able to do better paying jobs, (while "poor" people "go with the flow" so-to-speak" and always depend on "other people" to "look out" for them. That is the essence of what I'm attempting to point out.

You seem to be confusing conservative with republican. They are not the same thing, at least when it comes to fiscal conservatism. While the republicans have a very effective spin machine about fiscal responsibility they are anything but. You talk about "liberals" handing out money to the poor. Who do you think republicans hand money out to? If you said billion dollar corporations you win a prize.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.

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