varigb707
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Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:05 pm

No end on those shootings. It's a shame the way we're living these days. My heart goes out to everyone.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...in-shooting-at-nj-supermarket?lite
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alberchico
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:02 pm

Where did the hell did he get an AK-47 from ? Don't tell me you can obtain one legally  
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Kiwirob
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Don't tell me you can obtain one legally

Sure can , looks like you can get one for about $900.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Where did the hell did he get an AK-47 from ? Don't tell me you can obtain one legally

You do realize there is a significant difference between a battlefront AK-47 and one sold in the US. Namely, the ones here are nearly all semi-automatic. But hey, believe what the press wants to you believe, that all AK's are horrible lead hoses.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
Sure can , looks like you can get one for about $900.

900 would be a steep price for an AK, IMO.

So the guy went crazy, killed 2 people and himself. Probably would have killed more had he decided to use his vehicle as a weapon than an AK-47. But again, the gun fearing people of the country are going to cry wolf that guns are bad.

-DiamondFlyer
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Kiwirob
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Namely, the ones here are nearly all semi-automatic.

It's fairly easy to modify to fully automatic from what I understand.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
It's fairly easy to modify to fully automatic from what I understand.

Nearly never done, and highly illegal. This is taken very seriously by the Feds. You will go to prison. By your reasoning all evil looking semi automatic guns can easily be converted to full auto. Wrong.

Find me one story that involves a crime being committed by a fully automatic AK47 in the US ever, if you're going to imply its easy then prove your point.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
900 would be a steep price for an AK, IMO.

For a decent AK they are running that now. The Romanian WASRs are about half that. But they have stamped not milled receivers.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Namely, the ones here are nearly all semi-automatic.

It's fairly easy to modify to fully automatic from what I understand.

Nope. There are several key components, namely the safety sear, missing from the semi-auto version and the attachment parts are not there either. It would require some pretty accurate machining on the receiver to get them fitted for fully automatic parts, not something you can do quickly with your hand drill. It would be easier to build a fully automatic AK from the scratch.

And the US have something called "contructive intent". This means if the cops find the parts and e.g. a machinist´s drawing for the illegal conversion with you, but no illegal gun yet, they can get you the same as if you had made an illegal gun already.

The punishment for owning an illegal machine gun (fully automatic weapon) in the US is ten years federal prison plus a fine of $100,000.
And legal ones take a lot of legal hoops to jump through since 1934.

Jan
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flymia
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:18 pm

Tragic story and it probably would not have made much of a difference if he had a handgun, shotgun, or AK-47 but this isn't "one" of those shootings again. 2 innocent people were killed not 12, and not 12 completely random people. The majority of homicides in the U.S. something around 80% or so are between two people who know each other. So tragic story yes. Something to say look at where we are living? No.
Why no? Because this stuff has been happening for a long time, this type of situtation is nothing new unfortunately. If you just realized it well then what can I say, you've been lucky not to notice them before I guess.
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fr8mech
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
And the US have something called "contructive intent". This means if the cops find the parts and e.g. a machinist´s drawing for the illegal conversion with you, but no illegal gun yet, they can get you the same as if you had made an illegal gun already.

I was at a range with a buddy once and we were firing a couple of older AR15's. One of the rifles "multi-fired", i.e. 2 rounds discharged on a single trigger pull. My friend immediately cleared the weapon, pulled the upper, popped the pins on the lower and gutted it. He then tossed all the lower components (sans lower) in separate trash cans and called it a day.

It seems, that the BATFE will prosecute you for having a "machine gun" even if it's just a malfunctioning semi-auto. Will they win? Who knows, but why risk it?
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Kiwirob
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
The punishment for owning an illegal machine gun (fully automatic weapon) in the US is ten years federal prison plus a fine of $100,000.

You think the nutjobs who own or convert weapons to full auto really care, it's like parents who beat there kids, it may be illegal but they do it anyway.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
I was at a range with a buddy once and we were firing a couple of older AR15's. One of the rifles "multi-fired", i.e. 2 rounds discharged on a single trigger pull.

I've never heard of a slam fire on an AR, did he clean the gun regularly? That's a common problem with surplus SKSs. It took me a very long time to get the cosmoline out of my SKS bolt/firing pin so that wouldn't happen.

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
Tragic story and it probably would not have made much of a difference if he had a handgun, shotgun, or AK-47 but this isn't "one" of those shootings again.

It's more a problem with workplace violence. The shooting in NYC was similar to this.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
The punishment for owning an illegal machine gun (fully automatic weapon) in the US is ten years federal prison plus a fine of $100,000.

You think the nutjobs who own or convert weapons to full auto really care, it's like parents who beat there kids, it may be illegal but they do it anyway.

They can as well build their own guns. I know you live in Norway. Check with your local resistance museum about the secretly mass produced copies of the British Sten Submachine guns in Norway during WW2. A lot were made by a resistance underground group called Milorg right under the noses of the Gestapo (more than thousand were made).
If I want a live gun and I don´t care about breaking laws I can get one any time.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
You think the nutjobs who own or convert weapons to full auto really care, it's like parents who beat there kids, it may be illegal but they do it anyway.

Still waiting for you to show me one time a fully automatic AK was used in a violent crime here in the US. Feel free to use other fully automatic weapons to prove your point. The last one I know of happened in 1992.
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WestJet747
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 12):
Still waiting for you to show me one time a fully automatic AK was used in a violent crime here in the US. Feel free to use other fully automatic weapons to prove your point. The last one I know of happened in 1992.

The North Hollywood shootout in 1997.
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jetmech
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
So the guy went crazy, killed 2 people and himself. Probably would have killed more had he decided to use his vehicle as a weapon than an AK-47. But again, the gun fearing people of the country are going to cry wolf that guns are bad.

I've asked this many times before on gun-related threads, and have never got a reasonable answer, so I'll try again. Vehicles provide a widespread utility to society that far outweighs any deaths caused by them, accidental or otherwise. What is the equivalent utility provided by firearms that comes anywhere near to justifying the number of deaths associated with them?

I find it disturbing how many on the pro gun side casually “write off” deaths caused by firearms. If these two were known to you or indeed family, would you be anywhere as nonchalant in brushing aside their passing away?

Regards, JetMech
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canoecarrier
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 13):
The North Hollywood shootout in 1997.

So, we're still talking about a criminal offense that happened 15 years ago. This doesn't happen often. And, in your example the only two deaths in that event were the two perpetrators of the crime.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 14):
I find it disturbing how many on the pro gun side casually “write off” deaths caused by firearms. If these two were known to you or indeed family, would you be anywhere as nonchalant in brushing aside their passing away?

Because people, as in this shooting, are so mentally messed up that they will end up killing no matter what the tool ends up being. Perhaps its just how Americans vs the rest of the world think/are raised. I grew up learning how to shoot properly and have zero problems with law abiding citizens owning firearms.

The idea of letting no one own a firearm yet allowing law enforcement to carry them is unimaginable to me.

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DeltaMD90
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:29 am

These gun threads are getting as annoying as the thousands of Sarah Palin threads back in 2008-2009... I don't think anyone is changing their opinions and we're really beating a dead horse here. RIP to the victims.
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fr8mech
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 10):
I've never heard of a slam fire on an AR, did he clean the gun regularly? That's a common problem with surplus SKSs. It took me a very long time to get the cosmoline out of my SKS bolt/firing pin so that wouldn't happen.

I don't think it was a slam fire, per-se. I'm thinking more along the lines of a worn disconnector or a spring somewhere. He really didn't even bother looking for a cause. Disassemble and trash.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
The idea of letting no one own a firearm yet allowing law enforcement to carry them is unimaginable to me.

Not to mention the non-law abiding.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:38 am

Apparently the shooter was a former US Marine, discharged after less than 2 years service. He also may have had psychological issues including depression. He was 23 years old, lived in the same town as where he did hid deed, he apparently had gone home to get his guns.. He was working at the supermarket where the shooting took place for less than 2 weeks, an uncle worked for the same supermarket company. He allegedly wore 'camo' during his shooting. One of his victims was only 18 years old and just graduated from high school. The store was closed at the time to customers, those inside were doing stocking and cleaning work. No word yet if the guns were legally obtained or if he had the proper licenses.
Sadly, this may be another case of someone with mental health or psychological problems and access to guns.
 
cws818
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:58 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
it probably would not have made much of a difference if he had a handgun, shotgun, or AK-47

Do you know what would have made a difference?: If he didn't have a gun of any sort.
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zippyjet
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting varigb707 (Thread starter):

And, there was a high school shooting in Perry Hall, Md. on the first day of school last MOnday. I didn't see it in a thread here.

Quoting varigb707 (Thread starter):

  
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:31 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):

You do realize there is a significant difference between a battlefront AK-47 and one sold in the US.

Sure. Not a lot of difference in how much kinetic energy a bullet downloads to its target, however.

For the record, I have enough (just enough) experience with full auto vs semi to know that full-auto is essentially useless anyway. You get an aimed first shot, and the next two that might get close to their targets, and then after that recoil effect takes over and one tends to "rock and roll" all over the place. IMHO, the danger (and hence illegality) of full auto weapons is much more a matter of errant shots winding up all over who knows where than being able to mow down a specific crowd.

I think we all know that a well made semi-auto is far more deadly, in that accuracy, as well as conservation of ammo is greatly improved.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
But again, the gun fearing people of the country are going to cry wolf that guns are bad.

And the gun lovers will try to tell us that somehow the solution to gun violence is either A. nothing, or B. more guns.

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
The majority of homicides in the U.S. something around 80% or so are between two people who know each other.

Oh good. They had it coming.


Seriously though, this is an interesting phonomenon, where we believe something like this (and I'm not, by the way, debating the accuracy if this) and leap to the conclusion that the act is indeed, not random, and that the victims had a clue something wasn't right. By saying it's not really random, we feel safer, knowing that the crazies in our lives either don't exist or are well controlled.

The truth is that even if you get murdered, and knew your assailant, there's a very good chance you didn't see this coming. To me, this makes it every bit as random as an act of terror, or an accident. Of course after such an incident there are great bunches of "warning signs" from the attacker, but I think the truth is closer to the fact that nearly everyone exhibits something that can be taken for such at some points in their lives.

This certainly doesn't make everyone out there automatically guilty before the fact by any means. But I feel it sides more with "random" than not.

Quoting jetmech (Reply 14):

I find it disturbing how many on the pro gun side casually %u201Cwrite off%u201D deaths caused by firearms. If these two were known to you or indeed family, would you be anywhere as nonchalant in brushing aside their passing away?

It isn't because they want to be jerks. It's that they don't want their guns taken away (regardless of the obvious benefits to the greater good), and also by calling everything bad that happens an accident, or crime of passion, we're alleviated of the responsibility involved. To a man, every gun owner claims to be responsible and "safe." Now we know this is either a lie, or an inaccuracy. Gun owners (legally or otherwise) constitute 100% of the perpetrators of gun violence. Since it's impossible to get away from that fact, the next best thing is to assume that people who commit acts of gun violence are somehow stupider, more prone to violence, have more issues, or are more neglectful than average. Anything but accepting the possibility that they themselves could ever go down that road. An indignant "Well I would never do that. In fact, if I had a gun at that time/place, I'd be a hero now, you'll see" is usually the response.

I'd like to think that most such people would be deeply affected by such a tragedy.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 15):

So, we're still talking about a criminal offense that happened 15 years ago. This doesn't happen often. And, in your example the only two deaths in that event were the two perpetrators of the crime.

Good. So we can extrapolate then that if we tightened the laws up some more WRT semi-autos & assault weapons then we'd have a better record still.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):

Because people, as in this shooting, are so mentally messed up that they will end up killing no matter what the tool ends up being.

Possible. But that doesn't mean we're obligated to stand by and make it easy for them either.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):

The idea of letting no one own a firearm yet allowing law enforcement to carry them is unimaginable to me.

I think we can allow the ownership of breach and muzzle loading weapons only and still be way inside the 2nd amendment. To be honest, Law enforcement having firearms and me not scares me far less than the myriad other things they can already do that I cannot. Particularly, everything in the Patriot Act.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
These gun threads are getting as annoying as the thousands of Sarah Palin threads back in 2008-2009...

Then don't post here. I probably run across about a dozen threads a week that I consider inane, stupid, repetitive, fill in the blank; whatever it is I feel is beneath me. But I haven't yet felt the need to pontificate about it. People like to talk about things. Sometimes a lot. In fact, I'd wager that if there were to be another 8 threads on this subject, you'd probably see Fr8mech and myself in all of them. Using those two as examples, I think we're well aware we won't change one another's minds. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in what he has to say about what I had to say. People like to debate stuff, and there's no harm in doing so here. If you have a problem with that, I'll bet real money that no one here will lose sleep if you were to simply take a pass on reading and then complaining about it.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 14):
I find it disturbing how many on the pro gun side casually “write off” deaths caused by firearms.

Correction:
The deaths are not caused by firearms. The deaths are caused by mentally instable people or criminals.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:50 am

Why do we keep haveing repeated threads about shootings in the US ? Its not as if they are rare occurences, when I was in the SU last month the local news featured a fatal shooting more or less every day, and that was in relatively safe Florida. Why don't we all agree to wait for a really big massacre before commenting again, and not one of these minor distrubances               
 
soon7x7
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
Because people, as in this shooting, are so mentally messed up that they will end up killing no matter what the tool ends up being.


I find it most interesting that a great many of these cases involve individuals that were currently being treated for depression/anxiety, disorders, or previously were...In the US, "treated" means one thing, physco-tropic drugs. As many are aware these pharmaceuticals have a wide range of side effects, some radical, especially where off centered personalities are concerned. Some use cars, bats knives, planes to carry out the rage they feel. Many are dead as result. Gun incidents make news quicker as many still trying to convince the world that guns are "evil". I'm aware of more people that have died or were close to death from pharmaceuticals than ones that confronted by a gun toting psychopath. Only know one of them,..and that took place in the Dominican Republic.
So we read about rampant shootings once again...what else is new. The US has 340,000,000 in its population. Many unstable individuals walking around for many different reasons...some from bad break ups with cheating spouses, those that have lost their jobs and everything else, gang bangers, rote hate and individuals that are just plane incorrectly wired. Take all the guns away...you still have the crazies...take away all the crazies?...you'll just have closets full of unused guns.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
Why do we keep having repeated threads about shootings in the US ? Its not as if they are rare occurrences, when I was in the SU last month the local news featured a fatal shooting more or less every day


Look at the bright side, at least we haven't arrived at the "car bomb/Bomb vest level yet". Me thinks the US really not the current leader in crazies.      
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:12 pm

I think that in the medium run there will have to be changes in the US.
While I don´t think a toal ban on guns is desirable, I see something like a database of people who should not have access to guns emerging. This will include known criminals but also people with mental issues.
E.g. if you are undergoing treatment or have a history of mental issues you´ll be disqualified, same as from flying a plane.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
fr8mech
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 25):
I find it most interesting that a great many of these cases involve individuals that were currently being treated for depression/anxiety, disorders, or previously were...

Let's look at his, because, as a responsible gun owner, this is my biggest concern and I see no clear answer.

When we legally purchase a firearm from a dealer, we answer the following question (among several others):

Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

Problem is, due to various HIPAA requirements and a myriad of other privacy laws, the instant background check folks may not have this information.

In fact, I feel that the bar (in the question) is set too low for mental illness. But, I am eminently unqualified to make a determination as to what level of mental health provides a compelling reason for the state to deny a person their 2nd Amendment right(s).

Do we set it at someone being treated for anxiety? Depression? Someone being treated by prescription? What drugs are an instant red flag? What drugs require a "second look"?

Of course, we'd have to get passed the doctor-patient confidentiality issue and the other privacy issues.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 22):
Gun owners (legally or otherwise) constitute 100% of the perpetrators of gun violence.

100% of folks that die from sky-diving are sky-diving when they die. 100% of folks who kill with a knife are knife wielders. You can go on and on. It means absolutely nothing.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 25):
Look at the bright side, at least we haven't arrived at the "car bomb/Bomb vest level yet". Me thinks the US really not the current leader in crazies.

I'll second that.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
The deaths are not caused by firearms. The deaths are caused by mentally instable people or criminals.

Again, correct...but I will also add in the "accidental death" usually caused by carelessness by the user or owner of the firearm.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 22):
And the gun lovers will try to tell us that somehow the solution to gun violence is either A. nothing, or B. more guns.

According to FBI statistics, violent crime has been going down across the country for over a decade even though gun ownership has practically exploded in that same time period. I don't think anyone has shown a strong correlation, but the anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that more guns may equal less violent crime.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
cmf
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 22):

  
Great post!

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
Why don't we all agree to wait for a really big massacre before commenting again, and not one of these minor distrubances

Because the big massacres are not the big problem. Most of them are planned and they would largely happen anyway, at least until we can change the general mentality.

We need to start with all the smaller and much more common occasions.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
I think that in the medium run there will have to be changes in the US.
While I don´t think a toal ban on guns is desirable, I see something like a database of people who should not have access to guns emerging.

I agree there must be change and I agree total ban isn't the solution. I don't think a database will have much effect.

Instead there must be a change of mentality. It takes a long time and there will be a lot of objections. Look at the objections you get here just for saying there is a problem.

We need to get rid of the mentality that it is "smart" to have loaded weapons around you at all times. It needs to be replaced with that weapons should only be loaded on the range, when hunting or for the few situations where there is a high risk of assault. Not the normal day to day times. Probably a generation just for this.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
According to FBI statistics, violent crime has been going down across the country for over a decade even though gun ownership has practically exploded in that same time period. I don't think anyone has shown a strong correlation, but the anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that more guns may equal less violent crime.

That may be the case when you look at US data alone but it falls apart when you look at international data for other developed countries.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 28):
That may be the case when you look at US data alone but it falls apart when you look at international data for other developed countries.

But, we are not other developed countries, are we? Nor, do I think we want to be. Say what you want, but American culture is different. We think and act differently because we have a different culture. We have different personal and historical experiences.

That is why we're Americans. To say America should be more like Norway, for instance, is asinine. We don't share the same historical perspective on the development of our nation and culture.

Are we a more violent culture? Probably. Can some things here be better? Yes. But to compare us to other nations, that have a different culture and political process is being wrong-headed.

You want something different? Leave or try to change the culture. Changing the culture is a long, hard road and, especially in this case, you will meet a mass of resistance, both from the populace and the politicians. Firearms are ingrained in our culture and our lives and our right to have them is enshrined in one of our founding documents.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
cmf
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
But, we are not other developed countries, are we? Nor, do I think we want to be. Say what you want, but American culture is different. We think and act differently because we have a different culture. We have different personal and historical experiences.

That is why we're Americans. To say America should be more like Norway, for instance, is asinine. We don't share the same historical perspective on the development of our nation and culture.

Are we a more violent culture? Probably. Can some things here be better? Yes. But to compare us to other nations, that have a different culture and political process is being wrong-headed.

You want something different? Leave or try to change the culture. Changing the culture is a long, hard road and, especially in this case, you will meet a mass of resistance, both from the populace and the politicians. Firearms are ingrained in our culture and our lives and our right to have them is enshrined in one of our founding documents.

Of course we can compare different nations, it is done all the time. Stop hiding behind being different. Do what we do everywhere else we see something that is better; grab it.

Culture is constantly developing. Things are different today from how they were just one generation ago. Go back a few more generations and the differences are even bigger. Don't use a long hard road as an excuse for doing nothing.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
Culture is constantly developing.

Of course it is. That's why I gave that to you as a choice. Go ahead and try to change the culture. Good luck. I think you're going to have a real hard time doing it. I didn't say you and like-minded folks shouldn't try. Just, in this case, and this current climate and generation, be prepared to fail.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
cmf
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
Of course it is. That's why I gave that to you as a choice. Go ahead and try to change the culture. Good luck. I think you're going to have a real hard time doing it. I didn't say you and like-minded folks shouldn't try. Just, in this case, and this current climate and generation, be prepared to fail.

Isn't that the typical last hurrah before things start to change quickly? Slavery, women's suffrage, segregation, the list goes on.

It is time to accept that the number gun related problems are not acceptable and that they do not go away by ignoring them.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:08 am

Semi automatic or not, having heavy weapons (other than hunting ones) being legally and easily available to public is pure madness.

Though sure these people would have went killing with lighter weapons too, but at least death toll would probably be smaller ( not talking about this case but generally).
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
Maverick623
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting varigb707 (Thread starter):


No end on those shootings. It's a shame the way we're living these days.

There's also no end on drunk driving deaths, but we don't see a thread about it everytime it happens.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
These gun threads are getting as annoying as the thousands of Sarah Palin threads back in 2008-2009.

No kidding.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
airtechy
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:54 am

Because of the Treyvon shooting near here, a motorcycle group whose meetings I attend have had many gun discussions. I have given up on the idea that there will be any meaningful gun control in the US, but one conversation really amazed me.

The situation, actually two, involved two people in our group who came close to shooting their own kids. One was, I believe, ten years old or so and had gotten up in the middle of the night to get a glass of water in the kitchen. His father, probably half asleep, heard something, left the bedroom with his gun, and had it pointed at the kid before he realized who it was. He proudly told us how he lectured his kid never to do that again.

The other involved a kid who came home late from a party without calling and his dad almost shot him coming in the front door....with his key.

To me it's sad when kids are not safe from weapons kept in their own home.

I still believe that the reason we have these cases where someone kills their wife and children.....and then themselves... are cases where the ready access to a gun caused someone who was probably mad and drunk to do something he would never do sober, realized what he did a half hour later, and then blew his brains out.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 22):
Quoting airtechy (Reply 35):
To me it's sad when kids are not safe from weapons kept in their own home.

In the two instances you mentioned the kids were safe. There's a big difference between having a gun in the house and shooting someone that's in your house.

What I do have a problem with is improperly stored firearms in a home. I have a fair number of guns in my house, several handguns and a number of rifles, but I lock all of them up. Even the ones I have for home defense are in a small gun safe that requires a code or key to open. If someone doesn't lock their gun(s) up and their kid gets to it and kills themselves or someone else the parent should go to jail.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:59 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 36):

In the two instances you mentioned the kids were safe.

I'd say the kids were lucky.

Some other kids who weren't so lucky

http://www.newson6.com/story/1910557...ly-shoots-herself-with-parents-gun

http://www.myfoxal.com/story/19175421/child-shot-in-birmingham

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...t-her-12-year-old-brother-la-mesa/

http://www.imperfectparent.com/topic...-shoots-and-kills-younger-brother/

and a couple of dads who weren't either

http://news.yahoo.com/indiana-father...shot-dead-3-old-son-195539267.html

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/19351...ice-girl-5-accidentally-shoots-dad

All happened in the last month or so, there are literally hundreds of these incidents if you go back to the start of the year, it's simply staggering.
 
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jetmech
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
Because people, as in this shooting, are so mentally messed up that they will end up killing no matter what the tool ends up being.
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
I grew up learning how to shoot properly and have zero problems with law abiding citizens owning firearms.

How many "law abiding" gun owners have flipped in the heat of the moment, and reached for the closest and most effective tool at their disposal (i.e. a firearm) and committed homicide?

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
The idea of letting no one own a firearm yet allowing law enforcement to carry them is unimaginable to me.

Is there something especially devious about the law enforcement community in the US? Surely, they of all people would have the training and mental suitability to be trusted with firearms? After all, you are 100% convinced of your own suitability.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 22):
It isn't because they want to be jerks.

I agree, however, the fact that so many on the pro-gun side appear to be so blasé about such incidents is disturbing.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
The deaths are caused by mentally instable people or criminals.

Sure. But do you leave a child alone to play with fire? Of course not! And if you did, would it be so surprising if a number of these infants burned themselves? Thus, if there are so many "crazies", “loonies” and “mentally defectives” in a given society, wouldn't it be a reasonable idea to do something about firearms? If nothing else, surely it is time to take the foot off the gas and stop manufacturing so many of the things?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
100% of folks that die from sky-diving are sky-diving when they die. 100% of folks who kill with a knife are knife wielders. You can go on and on. It means absolutely nothing.
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 22):
To a man, every gun owner claims to be responsible and "safe." Now we know this is either a lie, or an inaccuracy. Gun owners (legally or otherwise) constitute 100% of the perpetrators of gun violence. Since it's impossible to get away from that fact, the next best thing is to assume that people who commit acts of gun violence are somehow stupider, more prone to violence, have more issues, or are more neglectful than average. Anything but accepting the possibility that they themselves could ever go down that road. An indignant "Well I would never do that. In fact, if I had a gun at that time/place, I'd be a hero now, you'll see" is usually the response.

It means everything, because, as DarkSnowyNight says, many homicides have probably been committed by people who vehemently assured others that they were 100% responsible with firearms.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
There's also no end on drunk driving deaths, but we don't see a thread about it everytime it happens.

Again, this leads me to re-ask the question that never seems to get answered,

"Vehicles provide a widespread utility to society that far outweighs any deaths caused by them, accidental or otherwise. What is the equivalent utility provided by firearms that comes anywhere near to justifying the number of deaths associated with them?"

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:11 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 38):

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
There's also no end on drunk driving deaths, but we don't see a thread about it everytime it happens.

Again, this leads me to re-ask the question that never seems to get answered,

"Vehicles provide a widespread utility to society that far outweighs any deaths caused by them, accidental or otherwise. What is the equivalent utility provided by firearms that comes anywhere near to justifying the number of deaths associated with them?"

Not only that, there is no movement to de-criminalize drunk driving. This removes a good deal of the parallels there.
You Sir, are a very funny lady.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:57 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 38):
What is the equivalent utility provided by firearms that comes anywhere near to justifying the number of deaths associated with them?"

About all I can think of is some chicks look really hot with a gun!

 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 38):
Thus, if there are so many "crazies", “loonies” and “mentally defectives” in a given society, wouldn't it be a reasonable idea to do something about firearms?

What about doing something about these people? E.g. lots of homeless actually have mental problems. But mental treatment has often been cut back due to cost reasons. I assume that lots of people with serious mental issues get untreated.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting jetmech (Reply 38):
Is there something especially devious about the law enforcement community in the US? Surely, they of all people would have the training and mental suitability to be trusted with firearms? After all, you are 100% convinced of your own suitability.

Considering just a week or so ago, in NYC, a man shot and killed another man, only hitting the intended target, while law enforcement managed to shoot not only the murderer but 9, count them 9, other people in the area, yes, I have doubts about our law enforcement community. Because supposedly, NYPD is one of the "best"

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Geezer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
It's fairly easy to modify to fully automatic from what I understand.

It's more like "within the realm of possibility", and then ONLY if one happens to be a competent gunsmith, have access to parts, machine tools, ete etc etc etc

Quoting cws818 (Reply 20):
Do you know what would have made a difference?: If he didn't have a gun of any sort.

Yeah, then he would probably have been forced to use a ball bat to kill people that he had "problems " with; (anyone for a "ban" on ball bats ?)

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
The punishment for owning an illegal machine gun (fully automatic weapon) in the US is ten years federal prison plus a fine of $100,000.
And legal ones take a lot of legal hoops to jump through since 1934.

This just made me remember a guy I used to work with when I was hauling cars; can't even remember his name anymore.........but he always drove to work on this incredible "ratty looking" old home-made "trike" which was a combination of motorcycle parts, with an old V-8 Ford engine for power. At the time, a lot of our drivers used to congregate at this bar near the terminal; (about 10 yrs before I "swore off" bars and booze all together) This guy came in, we get to talking, and the conversation gets on "tommy guns"; he says, "let's walk across the street, I gotta show you something; his "ratty' old trike is parked across the street; we go over, he takes a glance around, opens the lid of the ridiculous looking contraption, and proceeds to pull out............a 75 yr old Thompson sub-machine gun, with the old drum type mag ! If we hadn't been within two blocks of the Norwood Police Station, I think he would have probably fired off a short "burst" just to "impress" ! I had known this guy for 3 or 4 yrs at the time, and never dreamed he had a gun of any kind, much less a full auto Tommy Gun !

Back inside the bar, he proceeds to relate an "experience" he'd had ten or so years before, in a "biker bar"..........a bunch of inebriated migrant Mexican farm laborers had came in, they see his "violin case", ask "was dat", and DEMAND that he "play a tune"; at which point, (as he's opening the violin case), he says, "ok hombre, but I don't think you'll like my tune".......as he takes out the Tommy gun and proceeds to blast a dozen or so holes in a line across the floor ! The drunken Mexicans quickly left !

That's kinda typical of the type of people who somehow get hold of things like Tommy Guns; it's a "status symbol"; it creates "mystique"..........(or so they assume) I was still riding a 900 cc Kawasaki at the time I knew this guy, but I never hung out with anyone else who rode motorcycles; hell, I didn't have any time to "hang out"......I was too damn busy working 80 hour weeks, running back and forth from Cincinnati to the east coast and back every week. As far as I know, the guy with the Tommy Gun never "made any headlines" with it.

If you don't want to have to "deal" with the world's "nut jobs", a good idea is to NOT become either a police officer or an over-the-road truck driver; both will guarantee you weekly (if not daily) encounters with crazy people, most of whom have ZERO interest in, or regard for, the gun laws.

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Maverick623
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:08 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 38):

Again, this leads me to re-ask the question that never seems to get answered,

"Vehicles provide a widespread utility to society that far outweighs any deaths caused by them, accidental or otherwise. What is the equivalent utility provided by firearms that comes anywhere near to justifying the number of deaths associated with them?"
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 39):

Not only that, there is no movement to de-criminalize drunk driving. This removes a good deal of the parallels there.

You both completely, and totally, missed the point. Let me phrase it another way:

We don't see a thread demanding alcoholic beverages be banned every time there's a drunk driving death.

You may reinsert the parallels.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):

About all I can think of is some chicks look really hot with a gun!

For those wondering, that shot is from a movie that you have to see once, and only once. It is the most amazingly terrible movie I have ever seen.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:48 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):

We don't see a thread demanding alcoholic beverages be banned every time there's a drunk driving death.

Read what you're writing. Alcohol consumption isn't the problem. Operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated is. Separate the two, and again, there is no problem. The problem, in that case, already has criminal (and very often civil) penalties attached. Owning industrial strength assault weapons does not. This is why there is not a parallel here.
We didn't miss your point at all. Your conclusion just so happens not be valid in this instance.

Apples, oranges, all that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):

For those wondering, that shot is from a movie that you have to see once, and only once. It is the most amazingly terrible movie I have ever seen.

I know it isn't Machete, though that would fit your category just fine. Care to enlighten us?
You Sir, are a very funny lady.
 
BMI727
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:16 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):
We don't see a thread demanding alcoholic beverages be banned every time there's a drunk driving death.

People used to. And then we tried it. It didn't work.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Geezer
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 39):
there is no movement to de-criminalize drunk driving

I'm afraid I'm unable to understand exactly what you mean by "there is no movement to de-criminalize drunk driving........why on earth would anyone want to de-criminalize it ? I don't see any parallel between drunk driving and gun control laws.
There are probably a hundred times as many reasons why people drive drunk, as there are for people using guns to kill other people with.

Let's face it; my nearest town of any size, Terre Haute, Ind. is only around 50,000 population, yet there must be 3 or 4 dozen liquor stores; then there are heaven only knows, how many bars and clubs that serve beer an liquor; on top of all that "availability"...........every Kroger store, both Wal Mart Superstores, all sell beer and liquor; what this all tells me is........there is one hell of a lot of alcohol being consumed in a fairly medium sized town. Would anyone expect to see a "lack" of alcohol-related car crashes, injuries and deaths, with this much alcohol being consumed in a town this size ? I think if you were to ask any cop, any prosecutor, any judge in this whole area, "what can we do to prevent so many injuries, deaths, and so on, they'd all say, "take all the booze away, and it would eliminate 75 % of it. Of course, we all know what happens when the law prohibits the sale of alcohol, don't we ? To say that prohibition "doesn't work" is a gross understatement !

How about a drastic "tightening up" of the laws dealing with DUI drivers who kill people ? Say, automatic death sentence, no appeal, to be "carried out" within 6 months of the crime ? Think that's too stiff ? I'm open to all suggestions. How about a law that says........."people who are known to be heavy drinkers are prohibited from owning or even "touching" a firearm ? I'd go for that ! ( It would be impossible to implement, but it could save some lives I'd imagine.)

In the meantime..........I'm going to go about my normal law-abiding, non-drinking, non-drug abusing, safe driving way, staying ever vigilant, and "prepared" for anyone who isn't.

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
cmf
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 44):
We don't see a thread demanding alcoholic beverages be banned every time there's a drunk driving death.

Start them if you feel they are missing.

Quoting GEEZER (Reply 47):
I think if you were to ask any cop, any prosecutor, any judge in this whole area, "what can we do to prevent so many injuries, deaths, and so on, they'd all say, "take all the booze away, and it would eliminate 75 % of it.

Why are pro gunners only thinking binary? There is a big area between all free and all banned. Just as the alcohol ban isn't total neither is gun control. Both are about responsible use.

Being drunk isn't an accepted excuse for being an idiot. Show up drunk and you may lose your job. Be an alcoholic and your kids may be taken away from you. We spend fortunes on educating about the risks of alcohol. It goes on.

There are police checks to find drunk drivers. Serve something alcoholic to some who is drunk and you become responsible for what that person does. It goes on.

Be an idiot with a gun and it is "an accident." Your kids get hold of the gun and injures or kills someone, pity. You get angry and shoot. You get in trouble but for everything else it is carry on. Education about guns is you need it for self protection, here is how you use it. Remember to carry it at all times and have a backup.

Loaded guns are for the range, hunting and a few high risk situations. They are not to be there at all times because you may be attacked.

You're more likely to find yourself in the need of first aid kit, wellingtons, sewing kit and a plenty of other things you don't bring along at all times. Importantly, those things do not create risks to other people.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
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RE: Old Bridge, NJ Shooting - Another One..

Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 48):
They are not to be there at all times because you may be attacked.

Your opinion

Quoting cmf (Reply 48):
those things do not create risks to other people.

Drugs, alcohol and cars create far more devastation and risk to Americans but I do not see you create threads for evey accident that happens. Aslo check out how many citizens die every year at the hands of illegal aliens.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 39):
Not only that, there is no movement to de-criminalize drunk driving. This removes a good deal of the parallels there

But just like with gun laws the law breakers will still do it.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 42):
while law enforcement managed to shoot not only the murderer but 9, count them 9, other people in the area, yes, I have doubts about our law enforcement community
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 45):
Read what you're writing. Alcohol consumption isn't the problem. Operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated is

Just like the weapon is not the problem. Using one when angry or intoxicated is. Alcohol and drug consupmtion is a far larger problem than the right to have your weapons.

Quoting cmf (Reply 48):
There are police checks to find drunk drivers. Serve something alcoholic to some who is drunk and you become responsible for what that person does. It goes on.

So the people who where affected by the over 10,000 alcihol related deaths on the roads in 2009 should be very happy that all of this is being done. But yet you seem fixated on guns.

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