mham001
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Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:27 pm

Jaguar has officially confirmed that they expect to build 200 C-X75s, assuming the first 5 prove their concept. Powered by a 1.6l 4 cyl producing over 500hp, combined with electric propulsion of unknown quantity, the car is said to hit 0-60 in under 3 seconds. On electric-only, it will do the same in ~6 secs. It also uses a kinetic recovery system developed in F1. Electric-only range is expected to be 37 miles on the Euro cycle....cost will be $1.1-1.4 million.

http://www.motortrend.com/future/con...r_plans_200_c_x75_plug_in_hybrids/
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:51 pm

A 1.6l 4 cylinders for $1.1 million? Come on! I know the speed looks promising and it may be a technological marvel, but for that price I'd rather have a singing V10 or V12.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 1):
A 1.6l 4 cylinders for $1.1 million?

It's a pretty special engine, Cosworth developed it for use in F1 before the FIA decided to go with V6's, so it's going to be fairly unstressed at 500hp.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
It's a pretty special engine, Cosworth developed it for use in F1 before the FIA decided to go with V6's, so it's going to be fairly unstressed at 500hp.

4 cylinders are not noble. They are for the average Joe day-to-day car.

If I put $1.1 million in car, I would expect it not have the same amount of cylinders as my former Peugeot 207. It's matter of principle. And I don't really care if the engine has been developped by Cosworth.

I understand the downsizing and all, but it sucks.
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MrChips
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):
4 cylinders are not noble. They are for the average Joe day-to-day car.

Especially when you consider that the C-X75, at least in concept form, was supposed to be a turbine-electric hybrid (there is discussion that there might yet be a production run of turbine C-X75s toward the end of the model cycle). Having said that, this 4-cylinder is going to be about the most exotic engine ever fitted to a road car, so I'm not complaining too much.

[Edited 2012-08-31 15:22:03]
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 1):
A 1.6l 4 cylinders for $1.1 million? Come on! I know the speed looks promising and it may be a technological marvel, but for that price I'd rather have a singing V10 or V12.

It's the speed that matters.
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):
I understand the downsizing and all, but it sucks.

By that argument why do supercars not all have quad-turbo W16s? Answer- they're totally unnecessary and it's very hard to get all the power down on the road anyway. A four cylinder engine saves weight and thus improves handling. Now the technology is available to augment the power with an electric motor the need for a massive engine is negated.

You may not care about Cosworth, but they do know a thing or two about making engines. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt until the car actually sees the light of day.
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 6):
By that argument why do supercars not all have quad-turbo W16s?

The Veyron's 4,100 lb. curb weight answers that question.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 6):
Now the technology is available to augment the power with an electric motor the need for a massive engine is negated.

Of course the motors and batteries aren't the lightest things out there either.
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GrahamHill
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting MrChips (Reply 4):
so I'm not complaining too much

It's not that I'm complaining (well, I'm French, so I guess I am ), but for that price I would expect a V8 or a V12.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
It's the speed that matters.

How many occasions do you have to legally drive at 200+ mph? For me, it's more the sound, the handling and the accelerations. Obviously, that car has the acceleration and probably the handling, but 4 cylinders don't sound as good as 10 or 12.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 6):
By that argument why do supercars not all have quad-turbo W16s?

It's not because I'm saying 4 cylinders are short that I'm saying all supercars should have W16.

V8s, V10s and V12s also do exist  
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 6):
You may not care about Cosworth, but they do know a thing or two about making engines

I do care about Cosworth, I know who they are and what they do. No doubt this engine has to be a good. I just think a $1.1 million car would deserve more cylinders. That's all!  

[Edited 2012-08-31 16:03:29]

[Edited 2012-08-31 16:03:42]
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mham001
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:23 pm

It will be interesting to see how Mr. Clarkson spins this. A hated hybrid under his beloved Jaguar nameplate.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
It's a pretty special engine, Cosworth developed it for use in F1 before the FIA decided to go with V6's, so it's going to be fairly unstressed at 500hp.

I have my doubts about that. F1 engines are dead after 3000Km, reducing the power by a third might not be that beneficial, I'm sure they'll have to significantly adapt it.

Now for the sound, if it sounds anything like an F1 engine at high rev, should be fairly close to a turbine ! I would definitely like that.

About the KERS, if your car is hybrid it already has one, using the electric motors and batteries.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
BMI727
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:45 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 8):
Obviously, that car has the acceleration and probably the handling, but 4 cylinders don't sound as good as 10 or 12.

If it goes fast enough, I don't really care. Besides, BMW has a solution to the sound thing.
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:14 am

I thought they meant the F type, which would have been much cheaper. and more suited to the mainstream hybrid craze. Hybrids & Electrics should only be for standard cars, leaving the high performance end the last of the fuel reserves for those who won't mind paying $10-20 a litre. All the hybrid/electric crap does it add weight unnecessarily. They should be focused on absolute weight loss first and foremost.
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mham001
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
About the KERS, if your car is hybrid it already has one, using the electric motors and batteries.

I thought the F1 teams were using the more efficient mechanical KERS (brake energy). The average street hybrid is using electrical recovery.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
If it goes fast enough, I don't really care.

It's good to see a hater is coming around. My work here is paying off.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 12):
Hybrids & Electrics should only be for standard cars, leaving the high performance end the last of the fuel reserves for those who won't mind paying $10-20 a litre. All the hybrid/electric crap does it add weight unnecessarily

Why? F1 seems to believe they are beneficial (35kg in F!). I'm sure everybody feels good about allowing the rich to frivolously waste the last drops of oil. Not that it won't happen anyway.

[Edited 2012-08-31 19:08:45]
 
BMI727
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
I thought the F1 teams were using the more efficient mechanical KERS (brake energy). The average street hybrid is using electrical recovery.

They are all electrical, it's just a matter of whether it's stored in batteries or a flywheel. No street system has used a flywheel yet. I think it's the better option for performance, but can be a bit problematic from a packaging standpoint.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
It's good to see a hater is coming around. My work here is paying off.

Not really. I don't care how anyone powers their car, I'm just sick of people or the government telling me how I should power mine. If it's a fast enough car I don't care if it gets 5 mpg or 50.

For that matter, if I were making a seven figure car purchase, it wouldn't be this Jag. I'd be going with the Venom GT and maybe have change left over for a McLaren.
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:23 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
Why? F1 seems to believe they are beneficial (35kg in F!)

Only because Bernie is scrabbling (and has been for over a decade) to try and justify F1 in the face of the Eco-Stasi juggernaut steamrolling anything they deem as 'anti-environmental' behaviour. He has made all sorts of changes, not because they add anything to the sport or because they will make technological gains for future developments, but because he wants to avoid the wrath of the Green Brigade for as long as possible.

There are good technological advances that are also better environmentally, but they won't be developed if the time and money isn't spent on things which may have no perceived ecological benefit as well. Designing technologies solely to be eco-friendly is like a horse with blinkers - it only sees what it is allowed to see and nothing else. It is very limiting.

There are many ideas within vehicle R&D that are amazing and beneficial in every way except environmentally, so they will never see the light of day because of this rush to "go green". I find that very sad, and it used to be that Halo "cost-no-barrier" vehicles like this Jag would showcase future innovations. Hybrid techs are a way of minimising current damage, they are not the technology of the future.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
I'm sure everybody feels good about allowing the rich to frivolously waste the last drops of oil. Not that it won't happen anyway.

Exactly. You know as well as I do that will pan out that way - It matters not one jot whether us peasants feel good about it or not. We may as well be honest with ourselves and just let it happen.

Money = power = do what you want. Always has been, always will be.
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:44 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 4):
the C-X75, at least in concept form, was supposed to be a turbine-electric hybrid (there is discussion that there might yet be a production run of turbine C-X75s toward the end of the model cycle).

That sounds interesting. That will be the first turbine powered cars since the 1962-1964 Chysler turbins car. The turbines were made by Ghia in Turin, Italy, with final assembly taking place in Detroit, Michigan.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 6):
You may not care about Cosworth, but they do know a thing or two about making engines.

You've got that right...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/1975_Cosworth_Vega_Ad.jpg
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Kiwirob
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:02 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):

4 cylinders are not noble. They are for the average Joe day-to-day car.

This is also a 4 cylinder engine with a 10,000 rpm redline, I can't think of any v12's on sale today which can match that, plus it's small light, makes packaging easier and allows space for batteries for the electric powertrain.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
That will be the first turbine powered cars since the 1962-1964 Chysler turbins car.

FYI Rover built a series of turbine powered cars the last of which raced at Le Mans in 65.
 
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:48 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
FYI Rover built a series of turbine powered cars the last of which raced at Le Mans in 65.

Were they sold to the public like the Chrysler?

[Edited 2012-09-01 01:49:35]
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):

The Chrysler Turbine Cars were never sold to the public. If i remember correctly, they were leased to select customers in a pilot program. At the end of it Chrysler took the cars back and destroyed most of them.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:40 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):

Were they sold to the public like the Chrysler?

No but neither were the Chryslers.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
If i remember correctly, they were leased to select customers in a pilot program. At the end of it Chrysler took the cars back and destroyed most of them.

Leno has one.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
I thought the F1 teams were using the more efficient mechanical KERS (brake energy). The average street hybrid is using electrical recovery.

Williams developed it but doesn't use it on their F1 cars, however it won the 24h of Le Mans onboard the Audis.
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GrahamHill
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
This is also a 4 cylinder engine with a 10,000 rpm redline, I can't think of any v12's on sale today which can match that, plus it's small light, makes packaging easier and allows space for batteries for the electric powertrain.

I know all this stuff, thank you   

Obviously I'm struggling to make my point. No biggie.
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mham001
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
They are all electrical, it's just a matter of whether it's stored in batteries or a flywheel. No street system has used a flywheel yet. I think it's the better option for performance, but can be a bit problematic from a packaging standpoint.

The flywheel system is not electrical. The flywheel supplies the energy directly to the drivetrain. It is also nicely packaged.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/8763.html
 
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Aesma
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:59 pm

It's possible to make it all mechanical, but in practice in the Audi R18 e-tron it's electromechanical, and in F1 flywheel hasn't made it at all. In other applications like some trolley/bus it's purely mechanical, but it needs a specific transmission and that's probably why it doesn't work in motorsports for the moment, it's probably too difficult to make it reliable.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 22):

Obviously I'm struggling to make my point. No biggie.

I'm not too fussed about cylinder count, two of my favourite supercars only had 6 cylinders, the Porsche 959 and the Jaguar XJ-220.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
It's the speed that matters.

All that matters to Jag is getting 200 punters to cough up the $1.1M+.

You should be happy, they're letting the market decide.
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BMI727
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
Leno has one.

There are a few survivors, I'm not sure how many though. The point is that they weren't ever sold on dealer lots like a production car and were really more a glorified prototype.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 23):
The flywheel system is not electrical. The flywheel supplies the energy directly to the drivetrain. It is also nicely packaged.

Those work differently than the Porsche system then, which had a flywheel sitting in the place of the passenger's seat.

I still have to wonder a bit about the overall performance impact. If I'm not mistaken F1 raised the weight limits when KERS was introduced and those cars generally have to be ballasted anyway, so there was effectively no downside.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
All that matters to Jag is getting 200 punters to cough up the $1.1M+.

They should be able to do that easily enough.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):

Those work differently than the Porsche system then, which had a flywheel sitting in the place of the passenger's seat.

That was only the show car, the real deal will have seats for two.
 
BMI727
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:02 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
That was only the show car, the real deal will have seats for two.

There is no production car with a flywheel. They made the GT3 R Hybrid with one seat and the 918 RSR which had a similar system, also with only one seat. The roadgoing 918 will have two seats, but has a battery instead of a flywheel and one additional electric motor compared to the RSR.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
mham001
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:02 pm

Hard to say what Jag is talking about re KERS. They only say "developed for F1". I would have thought the flywheel since Toyota has been using the same electrical system principle for years. One nice thing about the electrical, it saves on brakes big time.
 
greasespot
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:55 pm

Who the hell cares how much carbon or gas it eats. It's a supercar. They are supposed to be totally impractical. If not they would be driving everywhere.

It will need one of these to sound like a super car.
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RE: Jaguar's Next Supercar Will Be A Plugin Hybrid

Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 31):
Who the hell cares how much carbon or gas it eats. It's a supercar. They are supposed to be totally impractical. If not they would be driving everywhere.

Exactly. Their use is so anecdotal that they don't make a butt hair of a difference to the environment.
I also wonder what kind of supercar buyer would spend 1 Million + in a car and then worry about mileage...

So it's all just the hype. It's not all a bad thing I suppose since the technology will eventually find it's way into Mr. Average's daily drive.

Still, Jaguar, of all companies, should know they're playing with fire here. The XJ-220 ended up a financial disaster because it ended up having too few cylinders...
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