kiffy
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Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:04 am

A continuation of this thread: Mitt Romney Campaign Plane

It’s going to be two USA Jet DC-9s; one for Romney and one for Ryan.
Official Campaign Planes

photo

[Edited 2012-08-30 23:29:02]
 
727LOVER
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Plane 2 UJ DC93

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:16 am

Yes, it is at LAL waitingr departure on Friday
I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
 
johnclipper
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:51 am

Hahaha - a DC-93 for Ryan...
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:19 pm

Romney:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JUS100

Ryan:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JUS200

Wonder if flight tracking will be 'blocked' during the remainder of the campaign?
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
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JBo
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:59 pm

With as rampant as the "green" movement is, I wonder how long before the Romney campaign gets blasted for chartering aircraft that are decades old and fuel inefficient.  
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
max550
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:20 pm

These aircraft are usually used for DOJ transports if I'm not mistaken. Anyone know what the cabin configuration is? I'd imagine the cabins have been reconfigured for the campaign.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting max550 (Reply 5):
These aircraft are usually used for DOJ transports if I'm not mistaken. Anyone know what the cabin configuration is? I'd imagine the cabins have been reconfigured for the campaign.


I don't think USA Jet does DOJ transports. JUS is their code, but they are not the 'justice' flights. Both campaign a/c are probably in exec config. In fact one of USA Jet's MD-83's was used by U2 during their tour.


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Looks like flights will not be blocked. JUS101 headed to MSY from LAL:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JUS101

Romney headed to New Orleans to tour storm damage
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-new-orleans-to-tour-storm-damage/
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[Edited 2012-08-31 06:44:17]
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
max550
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 6):
I don't think USA Jet does DOJ transports. JUS is their code, but they are not the 'justice' flights. Both campaign a/c are probably in exec config. In fact one of USA Jet's MD-83's was used by U2 during their tour.

You're right, I forgot JPATS uses their own aircraft.

Unless they changed anything this should be the configuration of Romney's plane:
http://www.usajet.aero/aircraft_types_MD83.htm

and Ryan's:
http://www.usajet.aero/aircraft_types_DC9_30.htm
 
LAXintl
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:39 pm

DC-9 is hell less wasteful and less costly to operate than the 747 Obama takes around the country campaigning.

This was even made fun of last night at the convention by Clint Eastwood.
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modesto2
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
DC-9 is hell less wasteful and less costly to operate than the 747 Obama takes around the country campaigning.

Yeah, but Obama doesn't have a say in that matter.
 
phxa340
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
DC-9 is hell less wasteful and less costly to operate than the 747 Obama takes around the country campaigning.

As noted , Obama doesn't have a choice. Obama can also fit a lot more people into his plane reducing the environmental impact per passenger. The DC-9 is hardly a green alternative.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
This was even made fun of last night at the convention by Clint Eastwood.

Haha ... because the GOP is so big on Green friendly policies  
 
COflyerBOS
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:36 pm

I'm surprised they aren't 737s from KX.  
 
xdlx
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 11):

But it sure is faster...... 
 
jporterfi
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 6):
Looks like flights will not be blocked. JUS101 headed to MSY from LAL:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JUS101

These posts seem contradictory: one says the flight number for Romney's plane will be 100, but the other says 101. Which one is correct? And is Ryan's flight number always going to be 200? Also, does anyone know the N-numbers for these aircraft? I would think that would be the best way to track them on FlightAware.

[Edited 2012-08-31 08:49:37]
 
wjcandee
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:51 pm

Actually, I think it is interesting how most presidential candidates and their minions (and Nancy Pelosi and her minions) all want something super-fancy. The media covered adoringly how Obama was given a special expensive chair on his campaign plane.

Looks like Mitt, who has been doing business travel a long time, just wants a basic, albeit comforable, plane.

Since folks have long since given up measuring actual pollution and instead now get exercised about CO2, i.e. the stuff we breathe out and which is produced by everything ever burned, I wonder how much CO2 a DC9-30 puts out vs Obama's 757 on his campaign. I suspect the DC9 is lower. Again, not pollutants, just CO2. Smaller plane, smaller engines, smaller "fire", maybe smaller CO2?
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:57 pm

Oh the dilemma I'm in. My favorite commercial aircraft of all time being used as right wing transportation. My liberal blood boils!  
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wjcandee
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:29 pm

One big issues with these things is dispatch reliability. Campaign use is pretty-demanding on airframes and crews, and often involves traveling to locations that are on the smaller side. Let's hope [purely ecumenically, as aviation enthusiasts] that when these things inevitably go tech, that USA Jet has a plan to get everyone to the next stop. Otherwise, there will be lots of grumbling from the traveling press about not even being able to run a campaign charter much less a country. USA Jet has 3 pax birds of each type. Miami Air has a reputation at being good at this kind of things, as did the late ATA; others, not so much.
 
thrufru
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:53 pm

The 747's aren't the only aircraft available to the president to use, and in reality aren't the only ones that he does use. There are 757's, used by the Bushes to fly to Sanford Airport, near Kennebunkport in Maine, or even the government version of the DC-9, often used by Clinton to fly to Marha's Vineyard. The fleet of aircraft available to the president is varied and does change with the mission.

Conversely, saying that the use of a 747 by the current president for campaign travel leaves a greater carbon footprint than a pair of Mad-Dogs doesn't take into account the whole picture. How many additional aircraft are needed for support staff, security, press, etc. A 747 can carry a lot of those. An MD-93 doesn't have quite the uplift. Let's also not forget that a sitting president has vastly different security concerns than any other candidate. The choice of the type of transportation is not really up to him, anyway.

I sure hope that the choice of MD's doesn't end up posing a maintenance problem for them either. It's not always a good thing to go with the lowest bid. The Boston Bruins did that a few years ago when they left Miami Air. A broker gave then a great number and they jumped at it. The problem was, though, that they didn't do their own due diligence. Whereas Miami Air included every single conceivable item, their new company was effectively an empty, uncrewed, uncatered aircraft (no fuel, or deicing either). Here's hoping RR ensured that all the add-ons were considered!
 
71Zulu
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 10):
Yeah, but Obama doesn't have a say in that matter.

Uh, he has an entire fleet available, he doesn't HAVE to take the 747.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 14):
These posts seem contradictory: one says the flight number for Romney's plane will be 100, but the other says 101. Which one is correct? And is Ryan's flight number always going to be 200?

Maybe 100 and 200 series, ie: 101, 102, etc.
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wjcandee
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:06 pm

Cargolex -- don't forget about Pace being gone now, too.
 
airtanker
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:13 pm

I can assure everyone that Andrews has several aircraft types that are easily configured to meet the "requirements" of flying the CIC. I know of no requiement that the CIC use only the VC-25, especially for CONUS travel. As discussed for several years, the VC-25 makes a big impression for CIC travel and that's why it's used many times when it really isn't necessary.
 
N62NA
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 8):
I do not think that Romney or Ryan care much about the "green" effect or fuel economy. Chartering gas guzzling obsolete aircraft because they are probably saving a few bucks goes right along with the "drill, baby, drill" energy policy of these two.

And judging by Obama's use of the 747 for all those campaign trips, neither does he. If Obama was truly "green" he would embrace what Al Gore has been preaching and do teleconferencing for at least some of his campaigning.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
DC-9 is hell less wasteful and less costly to operate than the 747 Obama takes around the country campaigning.

That is true.

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 10):
Yeah, but Obama doesn't have a say in that matter.

Yes, he does and he can reduce his carbon footprint if he so desires as I pointed out above.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 19):
Honestly, criticism of either side by either side is inappropriate given the choices, or relative lack thereof, available to both campaigns.

I agree totally. I always cringe a bit when people make highly political comments here.
 
cargolex
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:33 pm

Honestly, criticism of either side by either side is inappropriate given the choices, or relative lack thereof, available to both campaigns.

The Double R's might have been able to charter a 737 of some sort, but right now there are not many 757s or other larger aircraft available for this kind of charter.

North American's 757s were used by several campaigns over the years (including Obama's in 2008) and they were a favorite of political candidates from all sides of the spectrum. But North American no longer has those aircraft and the availability of aircraft for charter seems to be somewhat slim. Omni and Atlas don't have anything available and World/North American have parked many things. I don't think Ryan has much available either, and both Ryan and World/North American are in financial distress. As indicated above, Pace is gone and the other choices - Falcon Air Express, Ameristar, they're pretty much offering what USA Jet is offering.

This leaves either a 767 (or maybe an MD-11), which is bigger money all over and may not even be available, or a 737 from somebody else. I suppose they could have gotten a 757 from UA or DL, but this doesn't seem to be what Presidential candidates want to do and I don't know if they even have aircraft available for them.

USA Jet's product apparently fits the need of the Double R ticket, and so that's what they chartered. In some respects, it's what they could get rather than what they'd probably have chosen if more options were available. I don't believe they can use a non-US company for a variety of reasons, which rules out any available European 757 charters.

There are probably not too many other choices they could have made, most of which would have been 734/738 maybe, or other DC-9/MD-80 family products.

President Obama might be able to get away with the C-32 in some circumstances, but he's required to travel a certain way whether he wants to or not and that usually means the VC-25.

This year, I don't think either of the tickets really has many options open to them for "greener" transportation, whether they care about that or not. I don't really feel it's fair to criticize either of these tickets for their aircraft choices.
 
spiritair97
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:34 pm

There is NO doubt in my mind that there is NO coincidence that he is using USA Jet for his campaign. He's trying to butter up his constituants.
 
point2point
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:45 pm

Any of the seats that are empty on the Romney campaign planes are gonna get it if Clint Eastwood manages to find his way aboard .....

 
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:20 pm

Only on A.Net will you see people complaining over the aircraft type being used. Ridiculous.

Politics aside, be happy to see a D93 still in demand for useful service. Keep 'em active as long as you can, USA Jet.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 17):
I sure hope that the choice of MD's doesn't end up posing a maintenance problem for them either.

I would be more concerned if the aircraft choices were an aging 732 & 733 of similar 25-35 yr old ilk... But why would there be a problem? I'm not aware of shotty MX on the part of USA Jet.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
mikect
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 21):

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 10):
Yeah, but Obama doesn't have a say in that matter.

Yes, he does and he can reduce his carbon footprint if he so desires as I pointed out above.

Does he really though? I can't see him having much say in this decision (or any president). I would think his staff and the Secret Service work this all out with little input from the President.

Quoting point2point (Reply 24):
Any of the seats that are empty on the Romney campaign planes are gonna get it if Clint Eastwood manages to find his way aboard .....

LOL Good one.
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:47 pm

My 2¢...
a) It's ridiculous to blame one side or the other for their choice in air transport. Those who are saying the President is ridiculous to take the "747" would probably be praising Sen. McCain for taking the same plane on the same trips had he won in 2008.
b) The "747" isn't solely a means of transport. It's a flying command center and the President, whomever he (or she!) may be has a great need for the capabilities this aircraft offers.

Could a sitting president demand to consistenly fly on the 757's or DC-9's? Perhaps but I'm sure they'd get a ton of commentary from the Secret Service, Department of Defense, etc.

I don't mind political dialogue ('though it's rarely appropriate on a.net!) but I do mind when folks obviously choose picayune things (such as what plane a president is using) to give themselves faux-ammuntion to make their point.
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planespotting
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:47 pm

Come on - all politics aside, the president uses way more resources/CO2 to transport himself and everything that goes with him around the country.

Just this morning I watched a C-17 approach and land at DSM from my desk in one of Des Moines tallest buildings (Barack is coming here tomorrow for a rally at Living History Farms). That's just one plane ... most likely there will be another C-17, and finally his plane, which is usually one of the 747s if he's flying into DSM (and you can't forget about the second aircraft that's always nearby as a backup in case his main plane goes MX).

But that is the protocol - he doesn't set it. The Secret Service/Air Force does. That's just how it goes.

I think the campaign has to reimburse the government some amount for non-governmental function travel, but I think it's merely the cost of First Class tickets on an airline and not the whole logistical cost (at least that's how it used to be).
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b727fa
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:09 pm

I don't think R&R would use any DC-8 just because it came from a company called USAJet. That has little to nothing to do with their choice. I wonder, however, if our good friends at National, right there in YIP couldn't have provided the lift.
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Klaus
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:43 am

Both sides' transports are chosen for practical reasons and not really open to criticism.

That said, there is still some symbolism in the Romney team choosing a model which is basically a relic of a long-gone era which sort of coincides with where their mindset seems to originate.

Too bad that the election is about the actual future instead of an imagined version of the past...
 
ltbewr
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:20 am

I suspect canidates like Romney have to charter a USA made, USA registered, USA ownership aircraft, so will limit their choices of a/c.
With so many charter operators of larger a/c gone or consolidated, probably mainline airliners not wanting the hassles of charters, the demand for available charters for sports teams (especially now with College and Pro football seasons in full swigng along with MLB, so may have few choices.
 
BMI727
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:39 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 4):
With as rampant as the "green" movement is, I wonder how long before the Romney campaign gets blasted for chartering aircraft that are decades old and fuel inefficient.

Well, since literally taking the ecotards to the woodshed is illegal, I'll settle for doing it figuratively. The current President is using the VC-25, which is entirely necessary and also chartered an aircraft during his first campaign, not unlike Romney or any other presidential candidate.

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 6):
I don't think USA Jet does DOJ transports. JUS is their code, but they are not the 'justice' flights.

JPATS uses the DOJ code. I imagine JUS is derived from USA Jet.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
DC-9 is hell less wasteful and less costly to operate than the 747 Obama takes around the country campaigning.

Romney also does not need to potentially coordinate a war at a moment's notice. Let's be perfectly clear about one thing: the VC-25s were not built for vacations in Hawaii. They were not built for campaign trips to Ohio. And they were not built for G-20 summits in Mexico. They were built for 9/11.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 14):
Looks like Mitt, who has been doing business travel a long time, just wants a basic, albeit comforable, plane.

In that case he would have no issues with the VC-25s. The furnishings could be described as "American Doctor's Office" style. If you look at how much space the President actually has for living and working, I'd bet that it adds up to hardly more than a Gulfstream.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 18):
Uh, he has an entire fleet available, he doesn't HAVE to take the 747.

Practicality and reality dictates that he does. The VC-25 is the plane they want to use, and using anything else is a loss of capability.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Both sides' transports are chosen for practical reasons and not really open to criticism.

...and yet you still saw fit to write the drivel that makes up the rest of that post.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Mir
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 21):
If Obama was truly "green" he would embrace what Al Gore has been preaching and do teleconferencing for at least some of his campaigning.

Which the other side would immediately attack him on, claiming that he doesn't care enough about the people to actually leave Washington and meet them.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 31):
I suspect canidates like Romney have to charter a USA made, USA registered, USA ownership aircraft, so will limit their choices of a/c.

IIRC, McCain chartered a JetBlue Airbus when he was running (though he later switched to a dedicated aircraft). I don't think using a foreign airplane would be that big of a deal if it were from a US company (the GOP would have an easier time getting away with this). But someone like Air Canada Jetz would be a no-no.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
Let's be perfectly clear about one thing: the VC-25s were not built for vacations in Hawaii. They were not built for campaign trips to Ohio. And they were not built for G-20 summits in Mexico. They were built for 9/11.

Actually, they were built for a whole lot worse than 9/11. Though I'd argue that they were designed with big international trips in mind as well, just based on size alone - you're going to be taking a lot of people along on those trips, and it helps to have something big.

But no, they weren't designed for campaign trips. But unless we're going to start outfitting a whole fleet of aircraft with expensive tech so that all of them have the same capability as the VC-25s, the VC-25s will be used for those trips. And it's almost definitely more economical to do it that way than have a bunch of aircraft sitting around that only get used on occasion but still have to be maintained to extremely high standards.

-Mir
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Klaus
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:06 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
...and yet you still saw fit to write the drivel that makes up the rest of that post.

How nice. Looks like the obvious association does sting...   
 
BMI727
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:15 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
How nice. Looks like the obvious association does sting...

You made a reasonable point and then proceeded to contradict it about two keystrokes later. With a performance like that you should be running for office yourself. Most mediocre blowhards at least manage to stick a couple paragraphs of either something or nothing in between saying one thing and then saying the opposite.

And when you say obvious, obvious to whom? How many American voters do you think know a) what type of plane it is b) where it was made and c) when it was made? There is nothing about it in the five seconds of the plane as backdrop that people actually see that says anything other than transportation.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
KPDX
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:56 am

Honestly.. who the hell cares? Grasping for straws... all too common these days with politicians..

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
You made a reasonable point and then proceeded to contradict it about two keystrokes later. With a performance like that you should be running for office yourself. Most mediocre blowhards at least manage to stick a couple paragraphs of either something or nothing in between saying one thing and then saying the opposite.

  
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Klaus
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
You made a reasonable point and then proceeded to contradict it about two keystrokes later.

What one does (and why) is one thing.

What the appearance of that same act is can be a whole different matter.
 
BMI727
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
What the appearance of that same act is can be a whole different matter.

It might be had you not just said that the appearance didn't matter. You say it's not open to criticism right before criticizing it. And you say it's meaningless right before finding meaning.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Klaus
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
It might be had you not just said that the appearance didn't matter.

No, I did not, since it does, particularly in an election (although the campaign planes will probably not have that much of an impact in the general public, many of whom use those same antiquated models in their own travels as well).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
You say it's not open to criticism right before criticizing it.

Wrong. I have not criticized the campaign plane decision, I just see an interesting association with attitudes which I do criticize.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
And you say it's meaningless right before finding meaning.

Wrong. I have said no such thing.

You're making stuff up to a degree which is remarkable.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
In that case he would have no issues with the VC-25s. The furnishings could be described as "American Doctor's Office" style. If you look at how much space the President actually has for living and working, I'd bet that it adds up to hardly more than a Gulfstream.
http://www.whitehousemuseum.org/images/AF1/Air-Force-One-28000-Main2.png

The "Presidential" area is that with the brown carpeting, or the forward 2/3 of the aircraft's main deck. Now, he shares it with a lot of other people, of course, but it's a lot of space. And as you point out, the furnishings are functional and not "luxurious." That said, the service is not to be beat.

But there is ample space, if not opulent decor:
http://cdn.home-designing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Board-room-Air-Force-1.jpg

Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
But no, they weren't designed for campaign trips. But unless we're going to start outfitting a whole fleet of aircraft with expensive tech so that all of them have the same capability as the VC-25s, the VC-25s will be used for those trips. And it's almost definitely more economical to do it that way than have a bunch of aircraft sitting around that only get used on occasion but still have to be maintained to extremely high standards.

Which is a good point.
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BMI727
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
No, I did not, since it does, particularly in an election

By the way, how can appearance matter in something few people will ever see? You get a few seconds of Romney coming down the stairs in the small American town of the day. And even if people do get to see the plane, how many will know anything about it or glean any symbolism?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
Wrong. I have not criticized the campaign plane decision, I just see an interesting association with attitudes which I do criticiz

  
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Mitt Romney Campaign Planes

Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
You say it's not open to criticism right before criticizing it.

Wrong. I have not criticized the campaign plane decision, I just see an interesting association with attitudes which I do criticize.

Uh so the President, flying in VC-25s produced in 1986 (Reagan years) means the President's policies are much like Reagan's? President Obama is a conservative that is worshiped by Republicans. Very silly logic. I'd just stand by:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Both sides' transports are chosen for practical reasons and not really open to criticism.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)

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