Ken777
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A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:22 pm

There has been a lot of legitimate questions on why Romney is not releasing 12 years of tax returns - a standard his own Father established. He has released one (and only one) year, with some vague promise of a second return to come at some point in the future.

Romney's refusal to measure up to his Father;s standard allows (and indirectly encourages) speculation and wild guesses of what he's hiding. Swill accounts? Sure. The Bahamas? Of course. Lots of fodder for speculation there.

But now we have a very logical reason - the desire to avoid government review of how fees were turned into fund investments. Wave that magic wand that the tax rate goes from 35% to 15%.

Now the New York Attorney General is investigating a dozen companies, including Bain Capital:

Quote:

Inquiry on Tax Strategy Adds to Scrutiny of Finance Firms

The New York attorney general is investigating whether some of the nation’s biggest private equity firms have abused a tax strategy in order to slice hundreds of millions of dollars from their tax bills, according to executives with direct knowledge of the inquiry.


The attorney general, Eric T. Schneiderman, has in recent weeks subpoenaed more than a dozen firms seeking documents that would reveal whether they converted certain management fees collected from their investors into fund investments, which are taxed at a far lower rate than ordinary income.
Quote:

The tax strategy — which is viewed as perfectly legal by some tax experts, aggressive by others and potentially illegal by some — came to light last month when hundreds of pages of Bain’s internal financial documents were made available online. The financial statements show that at least $1 billion in accumulated fees that otherwise would have been taxed as ordinary income for Bain executives had been converted into investments producing capital gains, which are subject to a federal tax of 15 percent, versus a top rate of 35 percent for ordinary income. That means the Bain partners saved more than $200 million in federal income taxes and more than $20 million in Medicare taxes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/bu...-finance-firms.html?pagewanted=all

It's important to note that the investigation is said cover a period of time after Romney "retired", but it should be noted that Romney continues to receive money from Bain and he is not totally excluded from having "benefitted" from the shell game.

Finally, I doubt if Romney wants 12 years of returns made public for those who are investigating this shell game. or reviewed by experts (who happen to be Democrats) to see just how much Romney avoided in taxes by playing this game. Romney probably has a good reason to keep those returned hidden from the experts and the public.
 
BMI727
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
But now we have a very logical reason - the desire to avoid government review of how fees were turned into fund investments. Wave that magic wand that the tax rate goes from 35% to 15%.

That's genius.
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mt99
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
That's genius.

Indeed! If nothing illegal has occurred, then no harm in owning up to it.
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seb146
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
I doubt if Romney wants 12 years of returns made public

But, let's be clear here: Democrats would be perfectly happy with just 5 years of returns. Less than half of what they origionally asked for. Even that is too much. I guess he should not live up to his father's standards. Or anyone else's....
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AirframeAS
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:49 pm

I still don't understand why releasing tax returns is such a big deal. It's a good thing that when you apply for a job and become a candidate, companies don't ask for your tax returns.

Asking for tax returns as a whole is pretty stupid and proves nothing, IMO. A time wasting task.
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Ken777
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
Asking for tax returns as a whole is pretty stupid and proves nothing, IMO. A time wasting task.

You need to remember that it was Governor Romney that set the 12 years of returns standard.

Governor George Romney, not Governor Mitt Romney.

The benefit for the voters for a12 years of tax returns is that it lets the bean counters from both parties get to work to ensure there are no major problems.

Failure to live up to his own father's standards looks pretty concerning for Mitt. Just what is the guy hiding? How bad is it, even if "all" his actions legal?
 
ltbewr
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:08 pm

Like many, I think while part of the reason Romney is saying no to disclosing any tax returns prior to 2010 is that it would show how little in net Federal taxes he paid and cause a huge thing for Democrats to use against him, there are others familiar with tax law and how investment companies work who have thrown in other factors, they include:

How much money he made in deals when in charge of the 2002 Winter Olympics, as Governor of MA, or allegedly not longer a principal or officer of Bain despite the use of 'blind trusts'.
Penalties and taxes he paid, probably in 2009, on his Swiss bank accounts when there was a major crackdown by the IRS for them being used as a tax dodge.
Disclose other IRS tax penalties and fines or where the IRS made deals they need to keep off the public record for political reasons.
Disclose deals where his wife was involved, including more involving creative ones like the horse deal and wants to keep her out of the spotlight.
He may also be under confidential agreements with Bain that are still binding and could face huge civil liability if he were to disclose certain investments he had.
Earlier disclosures coul bring up names of his co-investors and with Bain who don't want any public disclosure for privacy, of becoming targets of Democrats and of any shady deals or backgrounds.
By saying no, he gains some cred with a number of conservatives who hate the IRS and taxation, disclosure laws, and any other mandates by private, political and governmental parties of transparency.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Failure to live up to his own father's standards looks pretty concerning for Mitt.

I'm beyond arguing why I don't care about tax returns, but how come I keep hearing "because his father did it"? Do we live in a patriarchy and have to do everything our fathers do?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
How bad is it, even if "all" his actions legal?

I'm sure it's just him paying a very low tax rate or some other LEGAL actions, maybe some legal offshore accounts. Do you honestly think if that's all it is this will all just blow over? It's obvious that he's damned if he does, less damned if he doesn't
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smittyone
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:20 pm

While with Bain, Romney made his bones by borrowing huge sums of money to buy the majority stake in ailing companies with cash flow, squeezing exorbitant fees out of them while firing actual working people (in order to free up money to service the debt), and then walking away with his pockets bursting when the businesses eventually collapsed.

Now he wants to portray himself as a "builder" and "job creator" who cares about normal people. I think that he doesn't want to release the tax returns because then the public will see for themselves what kind of a Wall Street shitbird he is.
 
flymia
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 8):
Now he wants to portray himself as a "builder" and "job creator" who cares about normal people. I think that he doesn't want to release the tax returns because then the public will see for themselves what kind of a Wall Street shitbird he is.


He does pay a low tax rate. But he does so legally and he contributes more to this country than 99.9% of the people in the U.S. whether it is in taxes, charity or even time helping people himself.

Tell, what great experiences does President Obama have? What is his jobs record?

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 8):
shitbird he is.


But this is ok?

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Now the New York Attorney General is investigating a dozen companies, including Bain Capital:


What a coincidence there huh? New York too, that's a surprise.
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Ken777
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
but how come I keep hearing "because his father did it"?

Because it was his father, George Romney, who established that standard of releasing 12 years of tax returns.

And it was Mitt Romney who has failed to live up to his own father's standards. K guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
It's obvious that he's damned if he does, less damned if he doesn't

He deserves to be damned if he fails to release the tax returns. We then have every right to come to our own conclusions about he actions, the legality of them and the ethical standards they represent.

It would be more than fair to exclude hi from consideration in the voter's booth if there are reasonable concerns about his ethical standards.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
there are others familiar with tax law and how investment companies work who have thrown in other factors, they include:

That list is one of the best I have seen and one of the most concerning when it comes to the type of president he would make.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
but how come I keep hearing "because his father did it"?

Because it was his father, George Romney, who established that standard of releasing 12 years of tax returns.

And it was Mitt Romney who has failed to live up to his own father's standards. K guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Again, why does it matter that "his father" did it? Should he adopt everything his father does? Some of these arguments make me lol
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smittyone
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
He does pay a low tax rate. But he does so legally and he contributes more to this country than 99.9% of the people in the U.S. whether it is in taxes, charity or even time helping people himself.


Not talking about the taxes he pays. I'm saying that he has made a fortune by jamming up vulnerable companies using borrowed money. Which is perfectly legal, but not quite building anything or putting anyone to work as he would like us to believe. It is the stock and trade of a whole class of people on Wall Street whom I consider to be shitbirds. That's one man's opinion.

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Tell, what great experiences does President Obama have? What is his jobs record?

Not my aim to support President Obama here. He's been President for almost a full term and should be judged on how well (or not) he has performed in that role to date.
 
seb146
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
he does so legally

Then he should not be afraid to release even 5 years of returns. If he has nothing to hide, like you claim, there would be no reason for him not to.

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
he contributes more to this country than 99.9% of the people in the U.S.

By letting his money sit in Swiss and Cayman and Bahaman bank accounts while he simply pulls in dividend checks. Real productive, there Mitt.
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mt99
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I'm beyond arguing why I don't care about tax returns

And we are sick of hearing. YOU don't care, fine - you want a medal?

But guess what I care, and 54% of the population want to see them

http://www.gallup.com/poll/156980/mi...trengths-weaknesses-gop-stage.aspx
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DeltaMD90
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Then he should not be afraid to release even 5 years of returns. If he has nothing to hide, like you claim, there would be no reason for him not to.

Again, it's foolish to think that there is nothing legal in those returns that would still make him look bad... or even worse than not revealing them. Meanwhile, there are real problems plaguing the country...

(before anyone mentions anything about loopholes, with or without him releasing his returns, opinions on loopholes and capital gains remains the same, we know he's still in favor of capital gains, etc.)
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Revelation
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
but how come I keep hearing "because his father did it"? Do we live in a patriarchy and have to do everything our fathers do?

Ok, how about because Obama did it, and most candidates have followed the precedent going back to Romney, Sr?

Now, a question for you: if you're sure everything he did is LEGAL, then why won't he release his tax returns?

Are you afraid that a very very conservative guy is very very liberal when it comes to interpreting tax laws?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:01 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 14):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I'm beyond arguing why I don't care about tax returns

And we are sick of hearing. YOU don't care, fine - you want a medal?

...which is why I didn't go into it like in threads past! Geez. I personally am interested in seeing them but I'm not gonna whine about seeing them and start yet another thread about it

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
Now, a question for you: if you're sure everything he did is LEGAL, then why won't he release his tax returns?

For the 9th time, I'm sure his returns would make him look really bad, even if it is legal. Do you think if he had a tax rate of about 8% of something and it was legal people would just be happy?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
Are you afraid that a very very conservative guy is very very liberal when it comes to interpreting tax laws?

What's that supposed to mean, am I scared? I don't care who's conservative or liberal, and I'm against the low tax he's paying, just like you!  
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Ken777
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
What is his jobs record?
Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
he contributes more to this country than 99.9% of the people in the U.S.

Keep looking at money only and you're probably right. But that doesn't mean that he's paid all taxes he should. With a copy of all returns we would know how many times he has been fined by the IRS, the reasons and the amount he tried to avoid.

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
What a coincidence there huh? New York too, that's a surprise.

Shouldn't be a surprise that a NY AG would be looking at New York companies, nor is it a surprise that Bain Capital is included in the handful of companies - Bain Capital is in New York and would be filing New York State Tax Returns.

And, looking at the $200,000,000.00 in taxes that could have been "fudged" it does make sense to get the investigation moving.

Lots of games played in that industry and I think a vigorous investigation of a lot of companies will result in more taxes paid, plus interest and fines.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
Should he adopt everything his father does?

Considering the questions raised related to hiding those returns and the potential for some major unethical conduct I would say, yes. If he wants to become President. Otherwise let him go back to playing with his money.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 14):
But guess what I care, and 54% of the population want to see them

I don't know why you would care, but what purpose does it serve just to see them? Why do you want to see them anyway? What will you gain out if it?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
Asking for tax returns as a whole is pretty stupid and proves nothing, IMO. A time wasting task.

You need to remember that it was Governor Romney that set the 12 years of returns standard.

Governor George Romney, not Governor Mitt Romney.

The benefit for the voters for a12 years of tax returns is that it lets the bean counters from both parties get to work to ensure there are no major problems.

Failure to live up to his own father's standards looks pretty concerning for Mitt. Just what is the guy hiding? How bad is it, even if "all" his actions legal?


Who cares. Is the 12 year standard thing some rule or something? Is it a federal law or something? Show me where it is, in fact, law, that anyone is required to release his or her own tax returns. And for fun, why not apply this to everyone seeking any paying job. Ken, I want to see YOUR tax returns.
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mt99
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I don't know why you would care, but what purpose does it serve just to see them? Why do you want to see them anyway? What will you gain out if it?

Because i want to. I think its important. There. Its my prerogative to decide what is important to me and what is not. and this is.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Who cares. Is the 12 year standard thing some rule or something? Is it a federal law or something? Show me where it is, in fact, law, that anyone is required to release his or her own tax returns

Then why release 2 years? worth? He shouldn't have.
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Ken777
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I don't know why you would care, but what purpose does it serve just to see them? Why do you want to see them anyway? What will you gain out if it?

You're working too hard being a Romney supporter and missing the reality that a lot of people want to see those returns - especially the Independents who are growing their concern with every report - like the New York investigation.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Ken, I want to see YOUR tax returns.

LOL! I'm not running for office, but I will admit to having bank accounts in Australia when I live there. Sadly they have a higher tax rate than the US so there was no special Swill bank benefits like Romney looks to have had.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 20):
Because i want to.

Not a good answer.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 20):
I think its important.

Important, in what way? Why is it important to you? Heck, I want to see your tax returns too, because its very important to me.   

Quoting mt99 (Reply 20):
Then why release 2 years? worth? He shouldn't have.

You didn't even anwser my question. But thanks for playing.
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BMI727
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
By letting his money sit in Swiss and Cayman and Bahaman bank accounts while he simply pulls in dividend checks. Real productive, there Mitt.

Do you understand anything about how banks or investments work? That comment seems to indicate that you don't, but there's that little bit of optimism left in me that thinks no person could possibly be that incredibly stupid.

And by the way, the flow of money to offshore locations should cause Americans to look in the mirror. If you see customers going to someone else's shop, you'd better figure out why and learn to compete. Yelling at the fleeing customers will do nothing.

[Edited 2012-09-02 16:42:39]
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mt99
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 20):
Because i want to.

Not a good answer.

Yes yes it is. You dont get to decide what i care about.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Important, in what way? Why is it important to you? Heck, I want to see your tax returns too, because its very important to me.   

When i run for office, i will have my tax returns hand delivered to your by a singing telegram girl

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
You didn't even anwser my question. But thanks for playing.

I sure did. If there is no standard, why even release one or two years?
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AirframeAS
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
You're working too hard being a Romney supporter

Um, duh. Im a Republican. You say that if it was a bad thing. Youre a democrat. Who cares. It doesn't bother me.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 24):
Yes yes it is. You dont get to decide what i care about.

Then you don't get to see anyone's tax returns. Sorry, but it's a two way street.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 24):
I sure did

Uhm, no.... You didn't. Again, what law requires one to release tax returns? Show me a law that requires Romney to release them.
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mt99
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 25):
hm, no.... You didn't. Again, what law requires one to release tax returns? Show me a law that requires Romney to release them

OK fine. lets take this 1 step at a time:

1. There is no law

Now (step 2) answer this question:

If there is no law, why did he release 2 years?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 25):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 24):
Yes yes it is. You dont get to decide what i care about.

Then you don't get to see anyone's tax returns. Sorry, but it's a two way street.

How is that a 2 way street? Is Mitt asking for my tax returns based on my Presidential candidacy?
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ltbewr
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:08 am

Another issue for not disclosing to add to my previous list per the opinions of some into tax and corporate issues is that in 2008 & 2009, he could have taken huge write downs for losses in the crash of the markets and of some companies he invested in. Apparently in his 2010 return was some write-offs for those losses that could be carried over into 2010 (something in the millions) and perhaps paying almost no or less than 10% in Federal Income Tax. I don't think that while those wrote-off were legal, some may have been questionable and aggressive, most importantly it will tick off some voters.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 26):
1. There is no law

Thank you. Now, with that said, Mitt has ZERO obligation to release any of his returns. And he shouldn't. There is no need to. It's silly and a waste of time.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 26):
If there is no law, why did he release 2 years?

Beats me. It was his choice to, but he shouldn't of released them.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 26):
How is that a 2 way street?

If you want to see ANYONE'S tax returns, be prepared to give something in return. Fair is fair.
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mt99
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:13 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
If you want to see ANYONE'S tax returns, be prepared to give something in return. Fair is fair.

Not just ANYONE.. a person who want to take be the leader of MY Country.

Ill make a deal with you, you make Mitt release his tax returns, ,you can see mines.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
It's silly and a waste of time.

As is a waste of time then, for Ann Romeny to tell the world that he buy his shirts at Costco and he irons he own shirts.. There is now law that forces us to know that of him. is there?
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AirframeAS
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 29):

I still don't see why you need to see them. They're not your business.
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Pyrex
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
But now we have a very logical reason - the desire to avoid government review of how fees were turned into fund investments.

The what? Avoid government review? Are you saying the IRS only reviews tax filings once someone releases them publicly to the media and not, I don't know, when they are filed? You can bet his taxes have been audited more times by the IRS in the past 10 years than every single person you know put together in their lifetimes, and they seem to have been unable to find anything wrong with it.

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Now the New York Attorney General is investigating a dozen companies, including Bain Capital:

The New York Aspiring Governor (AG) is just another in a long, "proud" tradition of Spitzer / Cuomo types trying to further their political careers by keeping their names in the media and fill some more holes in the bankrupt coffers of New York state by extorting money out of people. NY AGs are the living proof why prosecutors should be banned from ever being able to run for public office. You know what else he is investigating (was in the WSJ a couple of weeks ago)? Energy drinks, to see if they do indeed give you 5 hours of energy or not. His tactics would make Tony Soprano proud.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):

I still don't understand why releasing tax returns is such a big deal.

Keeping up with the Jones... a perverse curiosity into other people's lives, perhaps? In many parts of the world talking about money is considered taboo, in the U.S. the TV is full of "Cribs"-type shows where celebrities boast about how much they spent on their McMansions.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
The benefit for the voters for a12 years of tax returns is that it lets the bean counters from both parties get to work to ensure there are no major problems.

Isn't that the job for, I don't know, the IRS? You know, the agency that has billions of dollars in budget and an almost limitless power to harass people?

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 12):
Not talking about the taxes he pays. I'm saying that he has made a fortune by jamming up vulnerable companies using borrowed money

Just goes to show how ignorant you are about business.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 12):
It is the stock and trade of a whole class of people on Wall Street whom I consider to be shitbirds. That's one man's opinion.

Correction, that's one man's display of pure ignorance. Not that it ever stopped people like you from speaking about things they don't know anything about. Case in point:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
By letting his money sit in Swiss and Cayman and Bahaman bank accounts while he simply pulls in dividend checks. Real productive, there Mitt.

So what is it? Is the money sitting in a bank account or is it earning dividends? Because the only way you can earn dividends is if that money is invested in companies - you know what dividends are, right? Those things that accrue to shareholders, you know, the people who put their money at risk to grow the business. Money in a bank account earns interest (which the bank pays because it turns around and lends that money to companies at a higher rate of interest, so they can grow their businesses with recourse to debt instead of equity). I am just going to flat out conclude you have no idea of what a capital structure is, but at the very least please tell me you know the difference between debt and equity.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
Shouldn't be a surprise that a NY AG would be looking at New York companies

Bain is not a New York company... but no, it is no surprise that a NY AG is getting himself involved in things that don't concern them, he is just following in the footsteps of his predecessors.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
You're working too hard being a Romney supporter and missing the reality that a lot of people want to see those returns - especially the Independents who are growing their concern with every report

The only people who want to see those returns are Democrats who want to use them to attack him and feed the media machine for a couple of weeks to keep Obama's ineptness out of the news. If someone is so stupid they need to see someone's tax returns before deciding whether to vote for that person or not they shouldn't even be allowed to vote.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
I'm not running for office, but I will admit to having bank accounts in Australia when I live there.

Did you report them to the IRS? Did you let Uncle Sam know what your maximum yearly balance was? If not, expect some knocks on the door soon.
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
In many parts of the world talking about money is considered taboo, in the U.S.

You could say that for the U.S. as well. There are a vast majority of Americans who don't talk about how much they make and what they spend their money on. In short, it's really nobody's business.
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):

But now we have a very logical reason - the desire to avoid government review of how fees were turned into fund investments. Wave that magic wand that the tax rate goes from 35% to 15%.

Nah, I suspect the real reason is that he doesn't want to show all the writedowns in 2008 and 2009 following the crash. Coupled with all the gains he made in 2002-2008 .
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
And by the way, the flow of money to offshore locations should cause Americans to look in the mirror.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
If you see customers going to someone else's shop, you'd better figure out why and learn to compete.

Stand in one of the major international airports sometime. Tom Bradley Terminal at LAX is the classic case. Look at the number of people with all their large boxes of "stuff" they have bought in the US and are taking back home.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
Mitt has ZERO obligation to release any of his returns

And, with that major failing, the moderate and/or independent voters have no reason to believe the guy has been ethical over those years. We can make any assumption we please and

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
And he shouldn't. There is no need to. It's silly and a waste of time.

Not if you are running for President.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
If you want to see ANYONE'S tax returns, be prepared to give something in return. Fair is fair.

Fair is fair so what does Mitt get for meeting his father's own standards? Maybe a lot more votes from Independents.

And, fair is fair, Willard should be happy to give Obama the votes of all the Independents who fairly believe that the standard of disclosure set by George Romney's should be the standard for anyone who wants to run for President.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
Isn't that the job for, I don't know, the IRS?

There can be little doubt that the Romney's have been audited by the IRS. Big money returns get those little red audit flags, as does having millions overseas. The question that needs to be asked is were there any penalties and einterest paid after any audit. And how much of a penalty?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
Correction, that's one man's display of pure ignorance.

As opposed to your display of very poor judgement in making such a comment.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
The only people who want to see those returns are Democrats

And Independents who want to know what went on in those years with the Romneys. Mitt wants to be President - he needs to release the returns to confirm or put down all the rumors for once and for all.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
If someone is so stupid they need to see someone's tax returns before deciding whether to vote for that person or not they shouldn't even be allowed to vote.

hIf someone is so stupid to believe that BS statement then they deserve to be Republican.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
Did you report them to the IRS?

Of course. I even went to the meetings that the IRS Representative from the Sydney Embassy sent around the country to explain the tax situation to the Yanks in the various cities. Nice guy actually.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
Did you let Uncle Sam know what your maximum yearly balance was?

Uncle Sam worked well with the Aussies. Not a big deal as the Aussie Tax was higher than the US tax rates.

What you need to understand is that there are a lot of Yanks living overseas who are of moderate means - average Middle Class wage/salary incomes. That is far different than moving money overseas because of aggressive tax planning.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 32):
In short, it's really nobody's business.

Until you decide to run for President.
 
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Romney probably has a good reason to keep those returned hidden from the experts and the public.

Absolutely; because he's done a great job in keeping the focus on how lousy the economy is, and how lackluster a job President Obama has done in managing it, and releasing those returns will only undermine that focus as the Obama campaign tries to change the narrative to, "See how much money this man makes? He can't POSSIBLY have anything in common with the voters!"

Fact of the matter is that the IRS not only has access to his last 12 years' worth of returns, but EVERY SINGLE RETURN HE HAS EVER FILED, and they can scrutinize them for discrepancies all they want, any time they want (and I'm sure they already have).

If Mr. Romney had done anything illegal with his taxes, we'd know about it by now, as it would be plastered all over the news.

Despite what you or whatever other curiosity-seekers want to know about his personal finances, you're not entitled to see them if he doesn't want to publicly disclose them. End of story.

So Mr. Romney, sit tight and don't release those returns; keep the story where it needs to be - on the President's spectacularly failed stewardship of the economy.
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 35):
So Mr. Romney, sit tight and don't release those returns; keep the story where it needs to be - on the President's spectacularly failed stewardship of the economy.

Those returns will probably be a key factor in the election for many Independents. Hiding them presents questions that undecided voters will be looking at.
 
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34):
Uncle Sam worked well with the Aussies. Not a big deal as the Aussie Tax was higher than the US tax rates.

That is beyond the point. Plenty of Americans living overseas don't owe any money to Uncle Sam, but need to go through the draconian reporting requirements anyway, and the IRS makes their lives miserable if they don't. I know someone who studied in Geneva when she was in high-school and got harassed by the IRS years later because she still had a checking account there, with the Postal bank, that had less than 500 Francs in it and no activity in years.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34):
What you need to understand is that there are a lot of Yanks living overseas who are of moderate means - average Middle Class wage/salary incomes. That is far different than moving money overseas because of aggressive tax planning.

And the IRS hounds them all.

Oh, and given the fact that you are so against off-shore tax planning, I am sure you spend all your free time in Miami trying to prevent Argentineans and Venezuelans from buying condos there, no? After all, the reason most people buy real estate in Miami is the same reason many people put money where the greedy hands of the U.S. government can't touch it. It's called an insurance policy - read into it.
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:29 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
Just goes to show how ignorant you are about business.
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
Correction, that's one man's display of pure ignorance. Not that it ever stopped people like you from speaking about things they don't know anything about.

Says the student. The fact that I have a vision of how things should be does not make me ignorant of how things are.

Overeducated bullshit artists borrowing huge sums of money to buy their way into businesses that they know fundamentally nothing about, and then running them into the ground for maximum short-term 'shareholder payout' is why the US economy is what it is now. People who knew their trade used to build business empires here.

Educate yourself on 'post-Staples' Bain Capital and tell us how Governor Romney can possibly tell us with a straight face that he's interested in building lasting prosperity for people who do actual work for a living, and ultimately this nation.

[Edited 2012-09-02 19:38:26]
 
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:38 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
The New York Aspiring Governor (AG) is just another in a long, "proud" tradition of Spitzer / Cuomo types trying to further their political careers by keeping their names in the media and fill some more holes in the bankrupt coffers of New York state by extorting money out of people. making sure that the laws on the books are complied with.

Fixed that for you. Are we actually advocating that the government turn a blind eye to violations of regulations? And if so, how is that not advocating for corruption and an unlevel playing field?

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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 35):So Mr. Romney, sit tight and don't release those returns; keep the story where it needs to be - on the President's spectacularly failed stewardship of the economy.
Those returns will probably be a key factor in the election for many Independents

- Unemployment still well above 8%.
- A jobs report due this Friday that is projected to be very negative.
- Over $5 trillion added to the national debt since he took office
- An annual budget deficit of over $1.2 trillion, and two of his 4 years he enjoyed control of Congress as well.
- Housing still reeling
- ObamaCare being essentially defined as the largest tax increase in history


But yeah, certainly the OTHER candidate's tax returns; THAT will be THE key issue that independent votes are decided by. Right.   
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 38):
People who knew their trade used to build business empires here.

So banking and business isn't a trade? Or does it only count as work if you're covered in grease and dirt at the end of the day? What a neanderthal attitude towards business.
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
So banking and business isn't a trade? Or does it only count as work if you're covered in grease and dirt at the end of the day? What a neanderthal attitude towards business.

You took my point too literally. They actually understood and were passionate about the business that they were supposed to be managing. They had some level of expertise in the design, development, production and/or marketing of the goods or services that their business provided.

As opposed to the Bains of the world parachuting in with financing and all the answers. Which worked half of the time I guess...
 
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:41 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
I still don't see why you need to see them. They're not your business.

Is he running to the the President of my country?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
If someone is so stupid they need to see someone's tax returns before deciding whether to vote for that person or not they shouldn't even be allowed to vote.

Yes, it better to blindly trust the word of politicians.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 35):
If Mr. Romney had done anything illegal with his taxes, we'd know about it by now, as it would be plastered all over the news

So, for the 35th time: if there is nothing wrong, why not release them?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 35):
Despite what you or whatever other curiosity-seekers want to know about his personal finances, you're not entitled to see them if he doesn't want to publicly disclose them. End of story.

To his detriment.
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
And the IRS hounds them all.

Amazing as we lived overseas for 8 years and never had a problem.

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Are we actually advocating that the government turn a blind eye to violations of regulations?
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):
- Unemployment still well above 8%.

Will continue to be a battle no matter who is President. A brutal part of The Great Recession was massive job losses - remember W & Dick managed over a quarter of a million job losses a MONTH for multiple months, That caused a deep loss that we will be building out of for generations. Especially when the conservatives in the business world are sending. jobs over seas. Seems that they didn't say where the Job Creators would create those jobs

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):
- A jobs report due this Friday that is projected to be very negative.

Do you think Obama will cause more job losses than W? Don't think that will happen, but Willard could probably do worse.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):
- Over $5 trillion added to the national debt since he took office

You expected turning around a massive economic disaster can be reversed on the cheap? You still believe in running multiple wars on the credit card?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):
- An annual budget deficit of over $1.2 trillion

It costs money to send American troops into combat zones. Especially long term wars.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):
- Housing still reeling

And is coming back in some markets.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):
- ObamaCare being essentially defined as the largest tax increase in history

Let's see, there are actually some insurance companies who are mailing out refund checks because they charged too much on hteir premiums.

We are also seeing some improvements in how the sick are treated. During the Bush II Years there was finally a law that disallowed a woman having a Mastectomy as an outpatient. W finally understood that a Mastectomy was a brutal amputation and performing one as an outpatient was not acceptable.

The problem is that the insurance companies were given a grace period of One Year before the law took effect.

Oh, let's not forget those kids with pre-existing conditions being able to get insurance, and soon adults will be as well.

A big chunk of the advancements in health care will be the elimination of the 15% overcharge we have ben paying (for far too long) to the private insurance companies who were supposed to be able to perform for less than the government.
 
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:23 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 43):
if there is nothing wrong, why not release them?

Already answered, so stop asking.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):- Over $5 trillion added to the national debt since he took office
You expected turning around a massive economic disaster can be reversed on the cheap? You still believe in running multiple wars on the credit card?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):- An annual budget deficit of over $1.2 trillion
It costs money to send American troops into combat zones. Especially long term wars.

I thought President Obama was going to bring all those troops home? Didn't he campaign on ending those wars and bringing all those troops home?

Hmm.
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mt99
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:27 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 45):
Already answered, so stop asking.

Not it hasn't. If there is nothing wrong why not release them?
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Pyrex
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 43):
Yes, it better to blindly trust the word of politicians.

On another thread you seem to think that anyone who is not a government worker is a twit. So if government workers are so smart, why don't you trust the IRS when they say everything is OK with Mitt's taxes?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 44):

Amazing as we lived overseas for 8 years and never had a problem.

When? The rules keep getting stricter and stricter, and the IRS more and more unaccountable.
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 27):
don't think that while those wrote-off were legal, some may have been questionable and aggressive, most importantly it will tick off some voters.


I want to see what those voters would do if they had the amount of money they would pay in taxes that Romney does. I understand that it is hard for the typical American to complain about paying 15% taxes. Well maybe not typical because plenty pay no taxes. Anyway, I get it. But the perfect example is for the normal American to imagine winning a 100 million dollar lotto and then getting 50% of it taken away on the spot because of taxes. People always say how that sucks. Well every single person in this country would find every way possible to legally avoid taxes. There is nothing wrong with it and we ALL do it. The problem is the tax code NOT the people avoiding certain taxes legally. Maybe if we had a guy in the White House that actually understands it something can be fixed.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):
But yeah, certainly the OTHER candidate's tax returns; THAT will be THE key issue that independent votes are decided by. Right.


That is exactly the plan from the Obama Camp though. They need to get away from the economy and worry about the issues such as his taxes, women rights the SCOTUS has already decided on, Obama being a "family man", and "connected" to Americans etc.. etc.. just garbage.

One thing Obama should talk about is National Security as he has kept us safe. Has he done great from a foreign relations view, that can go either way. But he has kept this country safe.
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mt99
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RE: A Good Reason Not To Release Tax Returns

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:38 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 47):
On another thread you seem to think that anyone who is not a government worker is a twit. So if government workers are so smart, why don't you trust the IRS when they say everything is OK with Mitt's taxes?

On other treads, you claim that all movement employees and offices are "twits" - but now you blindly trust the IRS?

For the record (again) i do not think that Romney has done anything illegal. His tax return just opens window into the type of man the he is. Just as his wife talked about how irons his shirt - Who is Mitt?
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