cmf
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Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:48 am

Climate change may be the subject of debate in some places but in South Florida it’s become a costly reality.

In Miami Beach, where prolonged flooding in low-lying neighborhoods has become the norm after heavy storms, city leaders are weighing a $206 million overhaul of an antiquated drainage system increasingly compromised by rising sea level.

The plan calls for more pumps, wells to store storm runoff, higher sea walls and “back-flow’’ preventers for drain pipes flowing into Biscayne Bay. Those devices are intended to stop the system from producing the reverse effect it often does now. During seasonal high tides, the salty bay regularly puddles up from sewer grates in dozens of spots, such as near the local westside bar Purdy Lounge. Extreme high tides — like one in October 2010 — can push in enough sea water to make streets impassable, including blocks of the prime artery of Alton Road.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/we...h-florida-cities/nR2Qw/#cmComments

Reality is catching up with us. When I moved here 10 years ago flooding wasn't an issue. Now I fully expect the road outside my house to be under water ever so often. Another 10 years like this and it will be too deep for cars to get by when it happens.

It is time for everyone with their heads in the sand to pull them up and realize that we need to deal with global warming. It doesn't matter if it is man made or natural, it is here and it is affecting us. Time to act.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
QFA380
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
doesn't matter if it is man made or natura
Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Time to act.

If it's natural how are we supposed to act?

Even if it is natural I believe that cleaner alternatives to primarily coal and oil must be developed for other reason (notable pollutants such as soot) however the religious zeal with which many environmentalists champion uneconomic energy methods such as wind is incredible.

Honestly living in low-lying areas close to meteorologically active areas and then complaining about flooding is silly when you're depending on up to a century old infrastructure.

Also complaining that 'extremely high tides' that cause flooding prove climate change, would be the same as saying a plane crash proves planes are unsafe. You will always have extreme events that are hard to predict and deal with however you can't claim that a individual extreme event proves a trend.
 
Superfly
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:00 am

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
It is time for everyone with their heads in the sand to pull them up and realize that we need to deal with global warming. It doesn't matter if it is man made or natural, it is here and it is affecting us. Time to act.



Sounds like it's time for you to move to higher ground.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BMI727
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
When I moved here 10 years ago flooding wasn't an issue.

Ten years. You should learn the difference between weather and climate. A warm winter or a dry summer is not climate anything.

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Time to act.

Pick a mountain. Any mountain.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cedarjet
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Ten years. You should learn the difference between weather and climate. A warm winter or a dry summer is not climate anything.

Nice to see one of a.net's most right wing regulars on the side of logic! Yes indeed, ten years is climate not weather. Very frustrating when right wingers insist, we've had a cold winter / we've had a mild summer (these are rarely the case anyway but of course there is variations in weather, outliers) as though that disproves climate change.

I just hope the cute waitress at the Clevelander Hotel doesn't get wet. Well, maybe just a bit. Oh god.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:47 pm

I've always wanted beachfront property. The sooner, the better...
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
cmf
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
If it's natural how are we supposed to act?

Like we have done throughout history. We are not saying cold is natural so sit there are freeze. Instead we build houses...

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Even if it is natural I believe that cleaner alternatives to primarily coal and oil must be developed for other reason (notable pollutants such as soot) however the religious zeal with which many environmentalists champion uneconomic energy methods such as wind is incredible

Glad you think we need cleaner alternatives. Why can't wind be economic?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Honestly living in low-lying areas close to meteorologically active areas and then complaining about flooding is silly when you're depending on up to a century old infrastructure.

Land isn't sinking. Water is rising.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Also complaining that 'extremely high tides' that cause flooding prove climate change, would be the same as saying a plane crash proves planes are unsafe. You will always have extreme events that are hard to predict and deal with however you can't claim that a individual extreme event proves a trend.

It isn't individual events.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Sounds like it's time for you to move to higher ground.

Sound like it is time to figure out how we will handle the exodus.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Ten years. You should learn the difference between weather and climate. A warm winter or a dry summer is not climate anything.

You should learn to read. It isn't single events. It is a clear increase in occurrence and size. It has taken place over long enough time to make it clear it isn't a warm winter or dry summer but it is increasing fast.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Superfly
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 5):
I've always wanted beachfront property. The sooner, the better...


     

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Pick a mountain. Any mountain.



        

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Sound like it is time to figure out how we will handle the exodus.


Plenty of open space on higher ground in Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma, Nevada, Colorado. You have an abundance of choices.  
U-haul, Bekins, Ryder, Mayflower and other moving services will make a killing in profits.

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Land isn't sinking. Water is rising.


I thought Obama promised to make the sea levels recede.   
Don't believe me? Here goes....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGD5O8_Thhk

I guess Romney was right. Obama isn't working.

Florida is overdeveloped and too much overbuilding has gone westward in to the Everglades and there is less wetlands to handle flooding.
My best advice is to get out.
Bring back the Concorde
 
cmf
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):

Ignorance at full speed. Combined with some Obama hate. I see how you take your kool aid.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Superfly
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
I see how you take your kool aid.



Is that how you were taught to have a discussion with someone you don't agree with?
Just insult them?
That is very rude.

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Combined with some Obama hate.


That link was from a pro-Obama group on YouTube. How was any of that "hate"?
I just gave you a comment he made about this very subject.

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Ignorance at full speed.


Ignorance is sitting in a flood plain and not having a back up plan for when there is a flood.
Bring back the Concorde
 
cmf
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Is that how you were taught to have a discussion with someone you don't agree with?
Just insult them?
That is very rude.

Don't dish if you can't take it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
That link was from a pro-Obama group on YouTube.

You consider pushbacknow.net a pro Obama group.....

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Ignorance is sitting in a flood plain and not having a back up plan for when there is a flood.

Ignorance is seeing signs and refusing to deal with them. Calling for dealing with them is the exact opposite.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Superfly
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Don't dish if you can't take it.


Where was I insulting you?

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
You consider pushbacknow.net a pro Obama group.....


Ooops! 
Well the speech sounded good at least.   

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Ignorance is seeing signs and refusing to deal with them.
Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Calling for dealing with them is the exact opposite.



Hey I'm no scientist. Just reading your post complaining about the rising sea levels when you live in Florida.
If it bothers you that much, then leave the state and go somewhere else.
Don't expect others here to have pity for you for choosing to live in the low swamplands of Florida.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BMI727
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
Yes indeed, ten years is climate not weather.

Ten years is borderline at best, and really falls more on the side of weather rather than climate. And, there has been a major increase in tornadoes over the last several decades, but probably has nothing to do with any climate change and is mostly due to the fact that we are seeing and reporting more of them than before.

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
You should learn to read. It isn't single events. It is a clear increase in occurrence and size. It has taken place over long enough time to make it clear it isn't a warm winter or dry summer but it is increasing fast.

Forgive me if I don't consider the larger puddles in your neighborhood to be proof of anything. Not that I care anyway.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
It is time for everyone with their heads in the sand to pull them up and realize that we need to deal with global warming. It doesn't matter if it is man made or natural, it is here and it is affecting us. Time to act.

This makes quite a bit of difference, don't you think!? If it's man made any real change will probably take a while, and if it's natural then you're really screwed. Either way, and I'm not joking or being facetious, but move to higher ground, bro. I never understood why anyone would live so close to the water when a non-human-produced phenomenon (hurricane) can send a huge storm surge that will wipe out everything under 20 feet.

Perhaps we need to act on global warming... there are a multitude of reasons, but I'm sorry, I don't feel sorry for people building things slightly above (or even underwater, New Orleans, for example) and then complain about the ocean... just like people living in Tornado Alley shouldn't be complaining about tornadoes or people that live in SFO shouldn't complain about earthquakes...

Kinda on a related note, I love the Netherlands and the Dutch have really done great reclaiming land, but I'd NEVER live there (the underwater parts.) That's just asking for trouble, and God forbid if it ever does flood, what can you say? They took a gamble against nature and nature won
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Superfly
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I love the Netherlands and the Dutch have really done great reclaiming land


The Dutch have big dykes.
I'm sure it's safe and they don't have earth quakes or hurricanes.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Plenty of open space on higher ground in Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma, Nevada, Colorado. You have an abundance of choices.



I forgot to add Nebraska.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I love the Netherlands and the Dutch have really done great reclaiming land


The Dutch have big dykes.
I'm sure it's safe and they don't have earth quakes or hurricanes.

I don't doubt the Dutch's engineering... that being said, I still think living underwater is asking for trouble. JMO. Choosing to live near the ocean when the water is rising... sorry, but a move is probably in order.

I think there are plenty of good reasons to combat global warming... I just don't see choosing a poor housing location as one of them. I'm really not trying to be a dick either...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Rara
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
I thought Obama promised to make the sea levels recede.   
Don't believe me? Here goes....

He doesn't say that. He says in the speech that the "rise of the oceans" would "begin to slow". That's not promising very much, is it. The oceans can still rise, only less quickly than before. He could still do that.

Ironically, if Obama has indeed caused a worse economy (as conservatives claim he did), then he has indeed done a lot against climate change, because an economic cool-down is the most effective weapon against CO2 emissions that we currently have.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Ten years is borderline at best, and really falls more on the side of weather rather than climate. And, there has been a major increase in tornadoes over the last several decades, but probably has nothing to do with any climate change and is mostly due to the fact that we are seeing and reporting more of them than before.

   That's my understanding as well.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
windy95
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Reality is catching up with us.

Seeing how it has not warmed in 15 years I would say reality is here. No excessive hurricanes, no excessive tornadoes, it has been hotter before...etc...etc...etc....

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
It is time for everyone with their heads in the sand to pull them up and realize that we need to deal with global warming

Yes and stop funding it and start living in reality

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Land isn't sinking. Water is rising.

Actually the sea levels have fallen the last few years so your little story above would be jsut that. A story...

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Ignorance is seeing signs and refusing to deal with them

Ignorance is seeing signs where there are none all in the name of ideology. All of this is happened before and will happen again. Except this time we have the enviromental left green agenda driving it.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
It doesn't matter if it is man made or natural, it is here and it is affecting us. Time to act.

By doing what? In my line of work its not uncommon to have an archeologist find evidence of a native american beach camp several miles inland from what is today's beach front.

We can debate the causes of climate change, but what we can't debate is that it has happened before and the fact that it did is one reason people where here when Columbus showed up. People forget that at one point a mile of ice was over Seattle and that there were times when ocean levels were much higher and lower. Its one of the reasons they find ancient ruins well out to sea.

So? what do you suggest we do? Other than prepare for an inevitable change in sea levels that will flood a significantly populated part of our planet by moving people.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
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casinterest
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Extreme high tides — like one in October 2010 — can push in enough sea water to make streets impassable, including blocks of the prime artery of Alton Road.

A lot of cities on the coasts will have issues. Also a lot of cities have destroyed the natural dune barriers that used to protect and build the beaches up. If you can't stand the rise, it will be time to move. Lousiana this week is a good example that all the levees and pumps down's matter if they get breached , and you are below sea/river level.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Actually the sea levels have fallen the last few years so your little story above would be jsut that. A story...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-us-science-nature-climate-change/

Nope, they are rising over a long average. Whether Natural or human induced, the levels are rising.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Ignorance is seeing signs where there are none all in the name of ideology. All of this is happened before and will happen again. Except this time we have the enviromental left green agenda driving it.

Ignorance is standing around and doing nothing, especially if this does turn out to be human induced. Rising sea levels are not the only consequence. Higher temperatures will lead to more droughts, (how's that rain fall in the US Plains and west)? More poweful storms where cold and warm air does meat. . Hurricanes with warmer waters will get much more intense. Species may die off , or invade into unfamiliar zones.
To debate the man made, vs natural causes is fine until we have an answer, but investment still needs to be made to understand the full consequences.
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Mir
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I never understood why anyone would live so close to the water when a non-human-produced phenomenon (hurricane) can send a huge storm surge that will wipe out everything under 20 feet.

Because of trade. Because most of our goods travel by ocean, and because companies exist at ports to make money off that. And thus, that's where the most prosperous cites in the world are.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
The Dutch have big dykes.


-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I never understood why anyone would live so close to the water when a non-human-produced phenomenon (hurricane) can send a huge storm surge that will wipe out everything under 20 feet.

Because of trade. Because most of our goods travel by ocean, and because companies exist at ports to make money off that. And thus, that's where the most prosperous cites in the world are.

I realize that, I just never personally would build my house that low and it baffles me when someone else does. I feel sorry for them when they lose their house but I look at them with a "well what did you think would happen?" look
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Mir
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
I just never personally would build my house that low and it baffles me when someone else does. I feel sorry for them when they lose their house but I look at them with a "well what did you think would happen?" look

Somebody's got to do it. The nation's economy would not be nearly what it is without the ports of LA, NYC, New Orleans, Miami, Seattle, etc. The nation's military wouldn't be nearly what it is without San Diego and Norfolk. And you need people to staff those ports and run the businesses that make money catering to the needs that those ports have. Those people deserve support when things go bad as a result of living someplace that the nation needs them to live, not blame.

And that will always be the case. Access to, and control of, the oceans will never go out of style, no matter where the oceans actually end up.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
petertenthije
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:44 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Kinda on a related note, I love the Netherlands and the Dutch have really done great reclaiming land, but I'd NEVER live there (the underwater parts.) That's just asking for trouble,

When proper precautions are taken it is just as safe as anywhere. But you need a combination of long term and short term precautions. Long term by building flood defences, pumps and a strict inspection and maintenance regime. Short term by evacuating people, putting in sandbags or mobilising the army in case a storm surge is expected (or in New Orleans's case a hurricane). Both the long term and the short term precautions where done on the cheap in New Orleans, and New Orleans paid a terrible price.

Same for those living in earthquake teritory, hurricane alley or areas where forest fires are common.

Short of a meteor strikes or tsunamis there is little that nature can throw at humanity that is not surivivable with proper preparations. Whether it is economically justifiable is entirely debatable. In the Netherlands there ain't a debate on it for the simple reason that half the country is at or below sea level. We don't have a choise.

[Edited 2012-09-03 22:47:44]
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Superfly
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
The Dutch have big dykes.


-Not sure if using innuendo-
-Mir


Thanks for catching that. I was thinking of a different kind of dyke.  
The Dutch have big dikes.

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
He doesn't say that. He says in the speech that the "rise of the oceans" would "begin to slow". That's not promising very much, is it. The oceans can still rise, only less quickly than before. He could still do that.

Sorry but he ain't Moses.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Rara
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:23 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
Sorry but he ain't Moses.

No need to. In the grand scheme of things it's not very hard, we'd "only" have to stop burning fossil fuels. I realize we're not going to, for various reasons, but we're talking about a practical matter here, not a biblical one.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
cmf
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
Where was I insulting you?

The stupidity of your suggestions. Exemplified by this:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
Hey I'm no scientist. Just reading your post complaining about the rising sea levels when you live in Florida.
If it bothers you that much, then leave the state and go somewhere else.
Don't expect others here to have pity for you for choosing to live in the low swamplands of Florida.

Two thirds of the worlds large cities are by the ocean. There is no consensus on how many people live in low lying areas but they start at around every tenth person.

This is not a problem about where I live. It is easy for me to move. This is about how we handle moving a tenth of the worlds population and rebuild all the transportation infrastructure, manufacturing capacity and replace affected farmland. Then redo it a bit later as it keeps rising as we can't build it too far from the ocean.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Ten years is borderline at best, and really falls more on the side of weather rather than climate. And, there has been a major increase in tornadoes over the last several decades, but probably has nothing to do with any climate change and is mostly due to the fact that we are seeing and reporting more of them than before.

Head in the sand mentality.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Forgive me if I don't consider the larger puddles in your neighborhood to be proof of anything. Not that I care anyway.

Obviously you care enough to respond.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Seeing how it has not warmed in 15 years I would say reality is here. No excessive hurricanes, no excessive tornadoes, it has been hotter before...etc...etc...etc....

Only if you don't treat data scientifically.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Actually the sea levels have fallen the last few years so your little story above would be jsut that. A story...

Again, only if you ignore scientific data.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Ignorance is seeing signs where there are none all in the name of ideology.

That would be ignorance. Just as it is ignorance to deny it on ideology.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
All of this is happened before and will happen again.

But according to you not now.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Except this time we have the enviromental left green agenda driving it.

Because what you describe as natural can't happen while you're alive.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 18):
By doing what? In my line of work its not uncommon to have an archeologist find evidence of a native american beach camp several miles inland from what is today's beach front.

That is what we need to decide. Do we ban start moving cities inland? Do we build levies? Do we change something in the environment to counter the rise?

Or do we just sit here and wait for it to happen?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 19):
Ignorance is standing around and doing nothing

  

Quoting casinterest (Reply 19):
especially if this does turn out to be human induced. Rising sea levels are not the only consequence

It really doesn't matter if it is natural or man made. We do not make a difference if a house is on fire by lightning or because someone played with matches.

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Because of trade. Because most of our goods travel by ocean, and because companies exist at ports to make money off that. And thus, that's where the most prosperous cites in the world are.

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
I realize that, I just never personally would build my house that low and it baffles me when someone else does.

Do you apply this to everything? Should we move everyone out of earthquake zones or do we build to withstand? Do we move everyone away from tornado areas or do we build protection? Do we stop growing crop in flood zones or do we build levies to to protect them. Do we stop growing crop in areas that have experienced drought?

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 23):
But you need a combination of long term and short term precautions.

  
It takes time to be prepared.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
flymia
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:31 pm

I have not noticed anything unusual in the Miami area. If anything I have noticed less flooding than years ago. South Florida is not flood prone because the water just seeps into the ground, or goes into the everglades or back in the bay and ocean. The real problem here is a city like Miami Beach which is very dense and areas near the coast are building up now and becoming more and more dense. There is no more building west into the Everglades. Miami Beach and much of the older and now densely populated areas of the city have flood control and sewer lines from the 40s. That is the problem. An upgrade is needed no matter what happens. More people, more problems.

Ocean levels are going to change whether it is man made or not. It does not matter what is causing anything ocean tides always change. In 10,000 years Florida might have less land or more.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
cmf
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
If anything I have noticed less flooding than years ago. South Florida is not flood prone because the water just seeps into the ground, or goes into the everglades or back in the bay and ocean.

There is much less flooding after rain storms because
- they are much more active in lowering canals
- they have installed pumps allowing canals to be emptied even at times of high tide
- They documented all standing water areas after one of the storms around 2000 and learned where the actual trouble spots are and installed pumps in those locations.

The problems we are talking about here is something completely different. This isn't based on rain. This is based on the ocean going higher than before. It is especially clear around Miami Beach but also down town and mid town.

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
That is the problem. An upgrade is needed no matter what happens. More people, more problems.

That too is a problem.

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
Ocean levels are going to change whether it is man made or not. It does not matter what is causing anything ocean tides always change. In 10,000 years Florida might have less land or more.

But are we going to sit here and pretend they don't as it relates to the trillions of dollars we have invested and continue to invest in these areas?
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canoecarrier
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
That is what we need to decide. Do we ban start moving cities inland? Do we build levies? Do we change something in the environment to counter the rise?

Or do we just sit here and wait for it to happen?

I don't think building levies or trying to change the environment will solve the problem. Feel free to simulate a sea level rise yourself and see just how big an issue even a small increase in water levels will be.

http://www.csc.noaa.gov/slr/viewer/#

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Do you apply this to everything? Should we move everyone out of earthquake zones or do we build to withstand? Do we move everyone away from tornado areas or do we build protection? Do we stop growing crop in flood zones or do we build levies to to protect them. Do we stop growing crop in areas that have experienced drought?

That's really not an apples to apples comparison. You can build structures to withstand large earthquakes and you can rebuild a house after a tornado with a reasonable likelihood that you won't be hit again. You can't have a bunch of coastal cities built like New Orleans once they are effectively below sea level.

As I mentioned, I work somewhat in this field. It's not uncommon for people to build their home within 50-100 feet of a beach only a few feet above sea level. In the short term that results sometimes in large logs or storm surges being swept into peoples homes. In the long term it means that beautiful view may go away and your home be flooded for 1000 years. There is some personal responsibility on the homeowner when they themselves don't take that into consideration.
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NoUFO
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
And, there has been a major increase in tornadoes over the last several decades,

I have not heard of any scientist who said that the number of tornadoes had increased.

The argument of the skeptics that climate change had not led to an increase in tropical storms is a strawman anyway (as always), because the IPCC report says that there is confidence in stronger tropical storms but less confidence as far as the number of tropical stormes is concerned, but chances are that the number will decrease.

[Edited 2012-09-04 10:27:51]
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BMI727
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Head in the sand mentality

Ten years is not climate anything. That's weather.

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Obviously you care enough to respond.

I really don't care at all if the climate is changing or if the climate is not changing. What I do care about is when ecotards try to make me change because of whatever their latest disaster is.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
windy95
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):All of this is happened before and will happen again.But according to you not now.

No according to many scientist that think CAGW is crap. CO2 and man is not the driver of the ever changing climate.

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Or do we just sit here and wait for it to happen?

No we do what we have been doing since the beginning. Adapt and roll with the changes.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):
I have not heard of any scientist who said that the number of tornadoes had increased

I understand that but here in the states every time we have a some tornadoes break out we get some talking head on the news telling us about climate change.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):
because the IPCC report says that there is confidence in stronger tropical storms but less

And we have not had any proof of stronger storms happening despite the supposed rapid rise in temps the last twenty or so years that climate alarmist having been yelling fire..

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
I really don't care at all if the climate is changing or if the climate is not changing. What I do care about is when ecotards try to make me change because of whatever their latest disaster is

Bingo
 
ALTF4
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:57 pm

Now I remember why I haven't posted here in weeks. Its because crazy people who can't stand people they think are crazy post crazy things they'd be crazy to say in public.

Exhibit A:

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Ignorance at full speed. Combined with some Obama hate. I see how you take your kool aid.

Classy.
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cmf
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:32 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
I don't think building levies or trying to change the environment will solve the problem.

I don't think levies is the solution but I do think it is part of the solution. I do think there is plenty we can do to affect the environment,

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
That's really not an apples to apples comparison. You can build structures to withstand large earthquakes and you can rebuild a house after a tornado with a reasonable likelihood that you won't be hit again.

The only difference is scale. We have ways to handle flooding. Question is if it is cost efficient.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
It's not uncommon for people to build their home within 50-100 feet of a beach only a few feet above sea level.

Look at the keys. You are required to build on stilts. easy way to handle flooding. Problem is if stops being flooding and instead is occasional dry land.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Ten years is not climate anything. That's weather.

I remember arguments a cold winter was a sign nothing is happening. But you're missing the point. It isn't 10 years. It is much longer. The 10 years is the period where it has pushed things over the top here. Before then we still had margin. Now the margin is gone and we wasted the time arguing about if it is happening instead of preparing for it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
I really don't care at all if the climate is changing or if the climate is not changing. What I do care about is when ecotards try to make me change because of whatever their latest disaster is.

So you do care.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
No according to many scientist that think CAGW is crap. CO2 and man is not the driver of the ever changing climate.

There are still people arguing the moon landings took place in Hollywood. They claim to have science on their side. Concensus is solidly on global warming happening. Even most people claiming it isn't man made agree it is happening.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
No we do what we have been doing since the beginning. Adapt and roll with the changes.

That is why it is time to act now. Adapting doesn't happen in an afternoon.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 33):
Classy.

Nice to ignore the beginning.
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Aesma
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:45 pm

Wine makers here are considering irrigation. That has never been needed before and wine making isn't exactly new. The Sahel is becoming the Sahara. Island nations are disappearing under water. But we are "ecotards". I wonder what you will tell your grandchildren.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
BMI727
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
It isn't 10 years. It is much longer. The 10 years is the period where it has pushed things over the top here.

You said you moved there ten years ago. That's the data you're working with and that's not enough time to make any determination about climate.

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
So you do care.

I care when people start telling me what to do, what to drive, or reaching into my pockets. If you want to go off the grid or buy carbon credits go for it. But stop trying to convince me to do the same, I'm just not interested.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 35):
I wonder what you will tell your grandchildren.

I'd take them for a ride in my Hummer.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
You said you moved there ten years ago. That's the data you're working with and that's not enough time to make any determination about climate.

I said it has crossed the line from not being a problem to being a common problem in that period.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I care when people start telling me what to do, what to drive, or reaching into my pockets. If you want to go off the grid or buy carbon credits go for it. But stop trying to convince me to do the same, I'm just not interested.

Take responsibility for what you create and there is no problem.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Rara
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I care when people start telling me what to do, what to drive, or reaching into my pockets. If you want to go off the grid or buy carbon credits go for it. But stop trying to convince me to do the same, I'm just not interested.

As long as your actions negatively affect other people, those other people will have a say in how you lead your life. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Deal with it.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
BMI727
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 38):
As long as your actions negatively affect other people, those other people will have a say in how you lead your life.

Nobody gets a say except me. It's my life, my car, my credit card going in the gas pump. If driving a hybrid or buying carbon credits makes you sleep better at night, feel free to do so. But I sleep just fine as it is.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 38):
As long as your actions negatively affect other people, those other people will have a say in how you lead your life. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Deal with it.

That argument can be used for just about anything... it's where you draw the line. Some value more personal freedom even if it costs society a little more. We can get into a debate, but the bottom line is it's an opinion, not a fact
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Rara
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Nobody gets a say except me. It's my life, my car, my credit card going in the gas pump. If driving a hybrid or buying carbon credits makes you sleep better at night, feel free to do so. But I sleep just fine as it is.

Incorrect. For instance, you can't live at a river and routinely dump toxic garbage into it which then kill a farmer's sheep downstream. You may consider it part of your personal freedom and value it very much. You may also believe the dead sheep aren't that much of a big deal. However that may be, police will turn up and stop you.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
That argument can be used for just about anything... it's where you draw the line. Some value more personal freedom even if it costs society a little more. We can get into a debate, but the bottom line is it's an opinion, not a fact

No, it's quite factual. My freedom to swing my fist ends where another man's nose begins. You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people, those people will come and meddle with you. Now whether that's good or bad, we can debate, you're right - but the basic fact should be undisputed. Well, BMI727 disputes it, so maybe it's not as undisputed as I thought.  
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
No, it's quite factual. My freedom to swing my fist ends where another man's nose begins. You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people, those people will come and meddle with you. Now whether that's good or bad, we can debate, you're right - but the basic fact should be undisputed. Well, BMI727 disputes it, so maybe it's not as undisputed as I thought.  

Well like I said, just about everything one does "affects" society. I ate fast food today instead of cooking my own meal because I was running late... that's less healthy so I may develop more health problems, putting a burden on society. My friend lives further away from work than I do, burning more fossil fuels. I have a friend that likes to ride motorcycles, increasing the chance he'll go to the ER, placing a burden on society. See how silly it can get? There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I don't agree to take away BMI727's (imaginary) Hummer just because some people live close to a rising ocean.

Which actually brings up a good point... people living close to the ocean are trying to get me to change because they live close to the ocean that is rising. "You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people..." then don't put a burden on me for living by the ocean!

That's what I meant about it being a war of opinions, not facts. Sure some R&D and new technology that is greener can be researched, but if someone wants to drive a Hummer, let them. We can't measure every single person's individual costs to society, and we shouldn't have to. Price of freedom IMO. Not black and white of course
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Rara
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
Which actually brings up a good point... people living close to the ocean are trying to get me to change because they live close to the ocean that is rising. "You can do whatever you like, but as soon as you negatively affect other people..." then don't put a burden on me for living by the ocean!

That's sophistry, and you know it.   The key is "affect" - people have always been living by the sea, so they're affected; but they don't affect the people further inland. Though I agree that someone who just moved to the seaside has less of a case, particularly if he knew that sea levels would probably rise.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
Well like I said, just about everything one does "affects" society. I ate fast food today instead of cooking my own meal because I was running late... that's less healthy so I may develop more health problems, putting a burden on society. My friend lives further away from work than I do, burning more fossil fuels. I have a friend that likes to ride motorcycles, increasing the chance he'll go to the ER, placing a burden on society. See how silly it can get? There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I don't agree to take away BMI727's (imaginary) Hummer just because some people live close to a rising ocean.

I agree that there has to be a middle ground. We don't want a dictatorship and total mind control, but we don't want poisoned rivers either. I think people should simply take responsibility for their actions. Your friend with the motorcycle may potentially affect society, yes, but he also endangers his own life, so there's a deterrent and he has to weigh his options carefully. If motorcyclists would really drain the health system (hypothetically), we could ask them to pay more health insurance. I don't think that would be unfair in principle.
The imaginary BMI727 with his Hummer is literally a freerider: he causes damage to other people, but doesn't want anything to do with the cost. Obviously with negligible impact, but if there are millions of BMI727s with millions of Hummers, it becomes a factor. I don't support taking their Hummers away, but I would support raising the price (of the Hummers or the gas) in such a way that their driving expenses reflect the true cost of their actions. Note that don't have the faintest idea whether that's feasible and how much it would be, I'm just speaking in principle.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
Superfly
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:30 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
The stupidity of your suggestions.



Suggesting that someone move to higher ground if they're concerned about floods is considered "stupidity" in your eyes?
Wow!
So much for a civil discussion.
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BMI727
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
You may also believe the dead sheep aren't that much of a big deal.

They aren't.

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
However that may be, police will turn up and stop you.

Time to cut a check to the cops and lawmakers.

Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
My freedom to swing my fist ends where another man's nose begins.

What gives you any more right to swing your fist at my life than me to drive whatever I wish?

Quoting Rara (Reply 43):
I don't support taking their Hummers away, but I would support raising the price (of the Hummers or the gas) in such a way that their driving expenses reflect the true cost of their actions.

First of all, that's been done and it didn't work. In fact it backfired.

Secondly, I'm the one paying for the gas. I use more gas, I buy more gas. It's that simple.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 43):
I don't support taking their Hummers away, but I would support raising the price (of the Hummers or the gas) in such a way that their driving expenses reflect the true cost of their actions.

It sounds like you've never filled up a Hummer  

(I haven't either but I thought it was pretty witty)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Mir
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
Quoting Rara (Reply 41):
However that may be, police will turn up and stop you.

Time to cut a check to the cops and lawmakers.

Isn't corruption great?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BMI727
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 47):
Isn't corruption great?

It's not necessarily corruption. Just making a deal. More people benefiting from a factory or whatever is a good thing.

Maybe it isn't necessary to write a check. Don't want the factory, fine. Just take all that tax revenue and jobs to someplace with more vision. And make sure to tell all the unemployed people why it happened.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
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RE: Rising Sea Comes At A Cost For South FL Cities

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
Suggesting that someone move to higher ground if they're concerned about floods is considered "stupidity" in your eyes?
Wow!
So much for a civil discussion.

Stop pretending you're a victim. earn up to what you did.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.

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