fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6580
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:26 pm

This is an interesting choice of words:

"The government is the only thing we all belong to."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLa9Te8Blw

Not, we all share a government. Or, the government belongs to all of us. Or, the government is for all the people. The DNC says "government is the only thing we all belong to".

What I really find interesting is the following clip where Freedom Works talked to a few folks at the DNC. Now, I realize that not every response is reported, but I find some of the comments illuminating.

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/lheal/we-all-belong-to-the-government

I think it's just part of that mask slipping off, much like the DNC vote on Jerusalem and the inclusion of God in the platform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG6qgSfaARE
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5358
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:50 pm

Really?
Hmmm....Government of the people, by the people , for the people. Ring any bells?
We all belong to the Government in the same way that people belong to a club. It is what they make it to be.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
We all belong to the Government in the same way that people belong to a club. It is what they make it to be.

My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in.

Such thinking is quite feudal. In the days of serfs and nobility, (and even in some modern countries), you are a subject - the government or monarch owns you. We are citizens. We don't belong to the government in any way, no more than your employer owns you, or your insurance company owns you.

But this sort of thinking is quite typical of the Progressive movement.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5358
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in

Where is your application to chutch?
And your stance on immigration and citizenship is?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
We are citizens. We don't belong to the government in any way, no more than your employer owns you, or your insurance company owns you.

But this sort of thinking is quite typical of the Progressive movement.

Apparently expansive thinking is not required in ultra Conservative circles. We belong to the government in that we are it's resources, it's protectors, it's defendors, it's constituents. We belong based on Citizenship to the Unitied states, where Goverment is for the people, but by the people.
But maybe you don't belong to the GOP? You are a citizen of it?
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
We all belong to the Government in the same way that people belong to a club. It is what they make it to be.

That's exactly what I got from the statement. I guess you have to be particularly paranoid to read it as a claim to property... I wonder where that paranoia might come from.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
I think it's just part of that mask slipping off

Oh, found it!

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
much like the DNC vote on Jerusalem

I am astonished to read that the capital of Israel is an issue for the platform of an American party.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
the inclusion of God in the platform

Somehow, I don't think that the Christian God will would have cried over that exclusion... as an omniscient and omnipotent fictional character, political gibberish must be very low on its list of priorities.  
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
"The government is the only thing we all belong to."

Just as stupid (and along the same lines) as "Corporations are People" ...

You get pick who "owns" you: Government or Corporations?
Step into my office, baby
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
We all belong to the Government in the same way that people belong to a club. It is what they make it to be.

That's how I read it too, cas. "Belong" doesn't necessarily imply ownership. I belong to a running club. Last I checked they didn't imply any ownership rights over my being. There are, after all, multiple definitions of the word "belong" and it seems that Freedom Works is trying to rile up their membership by heavily implying one definition was meant when the other seems to be what was meant.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in.

There's that whole notion of the social contract at play, Dreadnought. Beyond that, if you decided you no longer wanted to be a member of the United States you're free to give up your citizenship and choose another nation to reside in.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
We don't belong to the government in any way, no more than your employer owns you, or your insurance company owns you.

Again, "to belong" can mean "to be part of" as much as it can mean "to be property of". You belong to the male population, but I do believe rather strongly that you are not its property...   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
But this sort of thinking is quite typical of the Progressive movement.

...aaand here we go again, accusatory generalisations over something that nobody actually said
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
Again, "to belong" can mean "to be part of" as much as it can mean "to be property of".

But I am not. I do not belong to my Electric Utility, nor am I a part of it. It exists. My tax dollars and monthly bills help support it. It exists to provide a service. But we are not part of each other.

Government exists to serve our needs that cannot otherwise be provided. Nothing more or less.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5258
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Government exists to serve our needs that cannot otherwise be provided. Nothing more or less.

But if no one belongs to the government, then why do we have a right to vote? Why not just let some faceless bureaucrat make all decisions? I'm not saying I believe this is the right path, but if you truly believe people aren't part of the government, then why do they have the power to vote and control government behavior?
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5358
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
My tax dollars and monthly bills help support it. It exists to provide a service

Your tax dollars......Through Government......(of which you belong) pays the Utility service to offer services you could not support on your own. you don't want to own the Utility, so you belong to Government which provides it for you and others collectively.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
But we are not part of each other.

Nobody said that you're a part of every group or organisation with whom you do business. You seem to be arguing that you don't belong to any such entity that you did not deliberately join - so I refer you back to my earlier statement:

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
You belong to the male population, but I do believe rather strongly that you are not its property.

Neither are you, or did anyone say that you are, the property of "the government" - local, state or federal. But since you live in a democratic country and are its citizen, you are part of a people that, ultimately, governs itself. Any and all power that is given to your elected representatives and officials is given to and also taken from them by the people. So you do indeed belong to the group that governs your country - you belong to your own government.

It'd be interesting to discuss the state of someone who has lost his or her right to vote... I'd have to say that they have been expelled from the group/government.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
But if no one belongs to the government, then why do we have a right to vote?

My electric utility is Municipal owned, and as a resident, I can show up to vote every couple of months when they have their meetings. I'm constantly getting their mailers and proxy info (it's really annoying, actually, the frequency).

So where is the difference? The Fed of course can mint their own money and is much bigger in scale, but it's essentially my electrical utility writ large.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5358
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
So where is the difference?

None, you belong to your Municipality which has an Electric Writ, ...
You still belong to the government.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5546
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
because I don't remember filling one in.

Your parents filled it out - it is called a birth certificate.

Did you every apply to have a driver's license, or to vote?

Those are also documents where you apply to be part of the government of this nation.

Mine was even simplier, my oath as I put on the uniform to defend this nation.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19606
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
"The government is the only thing we all belong to."

If you "belong to" a club, it doesn't mean that you are the property of the club. You are a member.

You are making a mountain out of a known idiom.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in.

It happened when you were born without your input, I suppose. If you do not wish to belong to the government, you need only renounce your citizenship. Of course, that has its own consequences...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Government exists to serve our needs that cannot otherwise be provided. Nothing more or less.

The government exists to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6580
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Government of the people, by the people , for the people. Ring any bells

Of the people: a government drawn from the people.
By the people: elected by the people.
For the people: in service to the people.
Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
Somehow, I don't think that the Christian God will would have cried over that exclusion... as an omniscient and omnipotent fictional character, political gibberish must be very low on its list of priorities.

I could give a rat's patut if the DNC (or the GOP, for that matter) omits God or Jerusalem from their platform. What I saw and heard was the DNC leadership tell their delegates to go shove it. We don't care how you vote, this is the way its going to be.
Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 6):
"Belong" doesn't necessarily imply ownership.

I agree, that in this case, it probably (I hope) is what they mean, but I find the choice of words interesting and revealing. They could have said that we all share a government. Same thing. They could have said that we all form a government. I like that and much more accurate. But the DNC chose the word "belong" and the baggage that word brings with it. And quite simply, if the head folks at the DNC didn't notice the baggage, what does that say about their mindset?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13395
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:42 am

ALL YOUR GOVT ARE BELONG TO US
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6580
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
ALL YOUR GOVT ARE BELONG TO US

I was going to toss that out there, but restrained myself.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5360
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:46 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
I am astonished to read that the capital of Israel is an issue for the platform of an American party.

I'm astonished that they actually have to figure it out.

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
Somehow, I don't think that the Christian God will would have cried over that exclusion... as an omniscient and omnipotent fictional character, political gibberish must be very low on its list of priorities.

It's important to the people who are electing their representatives. You may not care if God is included or even exists, but there are a fair number of Americans who do, and that's why it matters. Again, the fact that they have to stumble over themselves to even decide whether to include God speaks volumes to people to whom God speaks volumes.

It isn't the biggest deal in the world, it just shows where the DNC is headed.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
The government exists to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

Proof that those 70's Saturday morning public service messages really resonated.   (or am I the only one who sang those words in my head?)

-Dave
-Dave
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:58 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
What I saw and heard was the DNC leadership tell their delegates to go shove it. We don't care how you vote, this is the way its going to be.

If that's your problem with it, I agree completely. Funny definition of "democratic process"...
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8530
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:36 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
You belong to the male population, but I do believe rather strongly that you are not its property...

With a few exceptions, one belongs either to the male or the female population.
Belonging to the government means you are part of it. That is actually a very exclusive club
People belong to a church, or, as was said before to a club or many clubs.,
People belong to ethnic groups

The government does not own the people, nor do the people own the government

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
But if no one belongs to the government, then why do we have a right to vote?

"We, the people" - have the right to form oalitions and vote for bodies like the Congress, the Senate, the President

The same basic law that gives us the right to vote gives us the right to be free as an individual. We "belong to..." by choice, not by ownership.

Ownership or treating people as subjects is feudal, regardless what the political color is.

.

[Edited 2012-09-11 00:37:03]
powered by Eierlikör
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5358
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Belonging to the government means you are part of it. That is actually a very exclusive club

In the US thought, you can belong to the government by being a representative, either elected, or volunteering, or serving.

It may be an exclusive club, but at any point a US citizen can take part. We do belong to the Government.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8530
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
We do belong to the Government.

well, but only once you take up a position. it is a matter of how you define "Government"..

That can be Federal State or City.

A nminister and a state sevcretary is certainly part of the government.

A public servant is government staff, but not part of the government.

..
powered by Eierlikör
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
It may be an exclusive club, but at any point a US citizen can take part. We do belong to the Government.

Do you belong to your employer? Do you belong to your employee?

There seems to be a substantial lack of understanding of the difference between nation and government. You can belong to a nation. But a government is nothing more than an service company - a utility. The government belongs to us, not the other way around.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5358
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
But a government is nothing more than an service company - a utility. The government belongs to us, not the other way around.

Wrong. Government is not just a utility. It is everything in that Constitution you so emptily cling to apparently.

We belong to the Government just as that Goverment belongs to us. Folks in that Government are elected, appointees, volunteers, and hired workers, but above all that, they are citizens, not some little greedy business. They are folks that at the end of the day are working to make this country great.


If your view is that you don't belong to the government as a member, then you must just be more comfortable with the material and greedy point of view that belonging implies ownership. I suppose you don't belong to church, or you don't belong to a family.

[Edited 2012-09-11 07:53:18]
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
But a government is nothing more than an service company - a utility. The government belongs to us, not the other way around.

Again, however, you're deliberately choosing the use of "belong" with the definition that implies ownership privileges rather than the definition that implies membership. Once more - my wife belongs to a church. Do they "own" her? No, but she would say she belongs to that denomination and that particular congregation just as we belong to the government. Think of it in the sense that you have a voting share in a co-op called the United States of America. Within that co-op there's several sub co-ops that you also have a voting share in. In turn you get the benefits of membership in that co-op by virtue of your continued citizenship. Should you choose, at any time you may leave that co-op at which point you'd cease to belong to it.

This whole issue is the semantic issue of making a mountain out of a molehill. Clearly there are some trying to play up to the fear inherent in some that "government's out to get you" and is conflating this with some sinister or nefarious plan.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5258
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
There seems to be a substantial lack of understanding of the difference between nation and government.

I'd argue they are one in the same. There's really no such thing as a nation without a government. How would you even know who is part of the nation, if you didn't have a government to set the rules for citizenship or what the boundaries of the nation are?
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
I'd argue they are one in the same.

No it is not the same. It's like the difference between Law and Justice. Justice is a concept - the idea that we should treat people fairly. Law is man's sometimes imperfect attempt to solidify the ethereal concept of Justice and condense it down on paper. When people say that an injustice was done (such as the Casey Anthony case), that is because our abilities to translate justice into law did not quite work - but that is the natural limitation of being a nation of laws - we have to obey what's on paper, even if we think it was flawed. It is our duty to refine and rewrite the law to make it more perfectly reflect our concept of justice, but in a nation of laws you cannot simply ignore the law when you believe that the law is wrong in the face of justice - that's the whole problem with Judicial Activism.

The Nation is a Concept - particularly the US which was founded on some pretty heavy-duty philosophical concepts of Natural Law etc, those concepts found in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, and other documents. THAT is our Nation. THAT is something you can swear allegiance to, to feel a part of. The Flag is a symbol is a symbol of the nation, which explains why we pledge allegiance to the Flag, (the nation). The government that was created thereof is but our attempt to solidify those concepts, but it is not the same as the Nation. If we were to pledge allegiance to the government, that would (rightfully) raise all sorts of specters of fascism and dictatorship.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5258
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
The government that was created thereof is but our attempt to solidify those concepts, but it is not the same as the Nation.

In some vague philosophical world, you might be right. But in the practical real world, the nation = the government. You may not like that, but that is real-world practicality...not touchy feely concepts.

And if Nation is a concept, couldn't anyone declare themselves part of our Nation simply by believing or pledging allegiance to the same concepts? Is an Afghani goat-herder part of our Nation if he claims to have the same belief system?

[Edited 2012-09-11 08:47:34]
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 1529
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
And quite simply, if the head folks at the DNC didn't notice the baggage, what does that say about their mindset?

It says that they don't really care about people who purposefully misconstrue their words and don't spend time trying to placate those who have an agenda against them.

Fred
Image
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8530
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
I'd argue they are one in the same. There's really no such thing as a nation without a government. How would you even know who is part of the nation, if you didn't have a government to set the rules for citizenship or what the boundaries of the nation are?

"belong" -- the definition is "be the property of"

no person is the property of anyone. Period.

the nation and the government is certainly not the same. The nation is the confessed body under which all citizens unite.
The government is elected for 4 years and has to stand new elections after that time.

The government does not set rules, the elected deputies of the people - Congressmen and Senators in the case of the US - vote on issues and bills presented to them by the government. Details are egulated oin the basic law, the consitution which is paramount on all decisions and laws.

The government is only one part in a democracy, it is the executive body which is supervised be the legislative body and the supreme court as the judiciary body decides on disputes.
powered by Eierlikör
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
"belong" -- the definition is "be the property of"

That's but *one* definition. Per the OED:

belong, v.

Pronunciation: /bɪˈlɒŋ/
Forms: ME bilong, ME bylong, ME– belong; north. and Sc. belang.
Etymology: Middle English bi- , belongen appears to be an intensive (with be- prefix) of the simple longen , common in the same sense from 13th cent.: see long v.2 Old High German has, in same sense, bilangên , Middle Dutch belanghen , modern German and Dutch belangen , also a n. belang ‘concern, interest, importance’; but no trace of such forms is found in Old English For the sense, compare belong adj.

1. a. intr. To go along with, or accompany, as an adjunct, function, or duty; to be the proper accompaniment, to be appropriate, to pertain to.

b. impers., or with subject it repr. a clause.


2. To pertain, concern, refer. or relate to. arch.


3. a. To be the property or rightful possession of. Const. to; occas. with ind. obj.

b. To be a property or attribute of.

4. a. To be connected with in various relations; to form a part or appendage of; e.g. to be a member of a family, society, or nation, to be an adherent or dependent of, to be a native or inhabitant of a place; to be a dependency, adjunct, or appendage of something; to be one of a generation or time. Also const. to, †unto.

b. With an adv. or adv. phr. (esp. here, where = to this or these, to which), also with various preps. or without const.: to be related or connected; to have a certain connection indicated or implied in the context; to fit a certain environment, group, etc. orig. U.S.

c. With inf.: to be accustomed, ought; to seem, intend. U.S. dial.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:12 pm

Back in university I had an anarchist classmate who complained about having to obey laws and traffic rules because he had not been personally asked about their implementation.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 5968
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
"The government is the only thing we all belong to."

Yep. We do!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
My application to join the government must have gotten lost in the mail, because I don't remember filling one in.

You mean your lost your voter registration? Very sad. Guess you can't vote then.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Government exists to serve our needs that cannot otherwise be provided. Nothing more or less.

And you are the government, you elect it, you create it, you are part of making the laws and rules by doing so. You are part of the government of the USA, just as the founders designed it.

I know people here are trying to make hay of the statement and distort what it is meaning and saying, trying to turn it into some kind of "ownership" statement. But the simple truth is, in the USA we all are part of the government and the government is part of us. We control it, we make it, it is made of free citizens elected by free citizens

It has been a very frustrating for me over the last decade, people seem to believe "the government" is something else, that it is not them. But it is, we are it, and it is we. I guess for those that despise "the government" that old Pogo truism actually applies: "We have seen the enemy and he is us".

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Ken777
Posts: 9021
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
Do you belong to your employer?

Legally a trial lawyer can make a good case if you screw up and cause someone harm.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
Do you belong to your employee?

You belong to an employee to the extent of your legal obligations to that employee. The first time an employee you screwed out of some pay and Wage & Hour pays you a visit you get a pretty clear understanding of how you belong to your employer. Same with an accident sever enough to cause time off, or a disability. Actually I believe you are responsible for that employee during their travel time to work & home in some (if not all) states.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 19):
I'm astonished that they actually have to figure it out.

It is a bit of an issue as multiple religions consider it Holy. There is a need for the US to remain somewhat neutral on this - there is enough violence in the area and we don't need to act in a manner that will increase that violence.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
Back in university I had an anarchist classmate who complained about having to obey laws and traffic rules because he had not been personally asked about their implementation.

LOL!

And how is that anarchist doing now? Is he married? Married with kids does change an anarchist somewhat, especially when the wife unilaterally implements a policy of Dad changing the dirty diapers when he is at home. Stuff like that.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5360
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:06 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
It is a bit of an issue as multiple religions consider it Holy. There is a need for the US to remain somewhat neutral on this - there is enough violence in the area and we don't need to act in a manner that will increase that violence.

Yes, of course. Heaven forbid we should take a position.

-Dave
-Dave
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:38 am

I don't know, I think it's just semantics. I guess you can infer many things from the statement, but it's a lot easier to just disagree with a candidate's position rather than take a comment and infer from it. Personally, I think he meant no harm or any overreaching control, despite what you think his views may or may not be
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:23 am

This is what I call a Freudian Slip. Of course, they could have made the point they were supposedly trying to make and avoided this whole thing by saying the COUNTRY is the only thing we all belong to. And yet they didn't...   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

Such thinking is quite feudal. In the days of serfs and nobility, (and even in some modern countries), you are a subject - the government or monarch owns you.

That is still the thought in most European countries - the Government gives you rights, not the other way around. The legacy of feudalism is indeed quite strong. But then again, when you think about it, we haven't evolved much - you still have your ruling classes who govern by violence (your politicians), their pseudo-intellectual apologists (Academia has done a fine job of replacing clergy) and the much-maligned people who obtain their power and influence through the free exchange of goods and services (you got to admit "burgeoisie" sounds much better than private sector servant, though).

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
You get pick who "owns" you: Government or Corporations?

"Government" is just a word for things we do together. "Corporation" is just a word for things we do together voluntarily.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 6):
Beyond that, if you decided you no longer wanted to be a member of the United States you're free to give up your citizenship and choose another nation to reside in.

Actually, he isn't, no - just like East Germany and Cuba, the U.S. has built a big wall to prevent its citizens from leaving, only in this case it is a financial one.

Quoting tugger (Reply 34):
You mean your lost your voter registration? Very sad. Guess you can't vote then.

Nah, I guess he can always do like the Democratic candidate for the Congress seat from MD

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...egations-She-Committed-Voter-Fraud

Oh, yeah, I forgot, voter fraud does not exist - no way an attempted elected official would do it. And asking for Voter ID is clearly racist - I don't care if she is blonde, blue-eyed, so is Elizabeth Warren and she is Native American.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5360
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Nah, I guess he can always do like the Democratic candidate for the Congress seat from MDhttp://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...egations-She-Committed-Voter-FraudOh, yeah, I forgot, voter fraud does not exist - no way an attempted elected official would do it. And asking for Voter ID is clearly racist - I don't care if she is blonde, blue-eyed, so is Elizabeth Warren and she is Native American.

Well, at least they were all over it. No excuses even in a race that she likely might have won. Impressive.

-Dave
-Dave
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
That is still the thought in most European countries - the Government gives you rights, not the other way around. The legacy of feudalism is indeed quite strong. But then again, when you think about it, we haven't evolved much - you still have your ruling classes who govern by violence (your politicians), their pseudo-intellectual apologists (Academia has done a fine job of replacing clergy) .

Interesting analogy - I never thought of it that way. Academia as the Clergy.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
and the much-maligned people who obtain their power and influence through the free exchange of goods and services (you got to admit "burgeoisie" sounds much better than private sector servant, though).

They haven't changed much - they are the Merchant class, those non-nobility people who broke out of the serf-noble structure and created a business, and eventually created the industrial revolution and created what is now known as the middle class.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 6):
Beyond that, if you decided you no longer wanted to be a member of the United States you're free to give up your citizenship and choose another nation to reside in.

Actually, he isn't, no - just like East Germany and Cuba, the U.S. has built a big wall to prevent its citizens from leaving, only in this case it is a financial one.

That's true. Two people in my immediate family decided to hand in their US citizenship a couple of years ago, and they are still fighting for it, having spent a fortune in legal fees in the meantime.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:08 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
Back in university I had an anarchist classmate who complained about having to obey laws and traffic rules because he had not been personally asked about their implementation.

LOL!

And how is that anarchist doing now? Is he married? Married with kids does change an anarchist somewhat, especially when the wife unilaterally implements a policy of Dad changing the dirty diapers when he is at home. Stuff like that.

Good that you ask. After he finished his masteral in physics he went into the capitalist corporate world. Last time I saw him (years ago) he had cut off his ponytail and was wearing suits and neckties. I think he might have a wife and kids by now.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):

Actually, he isn't, no - just like East Germany and Cuba, the U.S. has built a big wall to prevent its citizens from leaving, only in this case it is a financial one.

And he's not going to get shot for it. Also note that I'm referring to completely renouncing his citizenship, not living as an ex pat.  
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 5968
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):

I don't know, I think it's just semantics. I guess you can infer many things from the statement, but it's a lot easier to just disagree with a candidate's position rather than take a comment and infer from it. Personally, I think he meant no harm or any overreaching control, despite what you think his views may or may not be

  

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Nah, I guess he can always do like the Democratic candidate for the Congress seat from MD

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...egations-She-Committed-Voter-Fraud

Oh, yeah, I forgot, voter fraud does not exist - no way an attempted elected official would do it. And asking for Voter ID is clearly racist - I don't care if she is blonde, blue-eyed, so is Elizabeth Warren and she is Native American.

"Voter fraud" of any level of significance that ID at the polls would prevent doesn't exist. How many times do I have to say that and how many times will people try to work around it? It doesn't. Period. The levels that exist occur on both sides of the ticket. The bigger problem is vote fraud (see the difference? Voter vs vote?) that occurs in the back ground and outside of the polls.

So to your point, exactly how would voter ID have prevented this fraud? Oh and it is perfectly possible to be a legal voter in two separate states and locals since voting occurs at different times in different states. Not saying that is what happened here but it is possible.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 39):
Well, at least they were all over it. No excuses even in a race that she likely might have won. Impressive.

  

Tugg

[Edited 2012-09-12 14:03:08]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
fr8mech
Topic Author
Posts: 6580
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 43):
exactly how would voter ID have prevented this fraud?

A state issued drivers' license would have taken care of it. You can't be a legal resident of one state and hold a license in another.

Quoting tugger (Reply 43):
Oh and it is perfectly possible to be a legal voter in two separate states and locals since voting occurs at different times in different states.

You would have to establish residency in that second state. You would have to do it before the registration deadline. Possible for a pair of primaries, depending on deadlines. Absolutely impossible for the general election.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 5968
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: We All Belong To Government?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
A state issued drivers' license would have taken care of it. You can't be a legal resident of one state and hold a license in another.

Again it does depend and I really don't want to get into parsing everything (we could if you wish though). I understand what you are saying, but I could move, get a new license and then vote in my new state's election. Legally. With ID.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
You would have to establish residency in that second state. You would have to do it before the registration deadline. Possible for a pair of primaries, depending on deadlines. Absolutely impossible for the general election.

You are correct sort of. I say "sort of" because I assume when you say "general election" you are meaning the national elections. State general elections can happen at different times.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aesma, agill, desertjets, jpetekyxmd80, nitepilot79, Pihero, wingman and 22 guests