PHX787
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:00 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e2-9132-f2750cd65f97_story.html

Reportedly (via twitter) being taxed about 14% of his income.

From his previous work, he paid the previous dues, and since he worked for years, he is pretty much living off the interest from his investments.

If he wasn't living off interest, he'd probably pay about 45% on taxes. But that's based off of how much he would make if he was still working as an investment banker.


It's all interest, stuff that was already taxed previously. According to my dad, who is an investment banker, Interest is automatically taxed based off of the rate of interest and the amount of money that was originally invested. Therefore, this is in reality a fair deal.

Democrats can sit down now.

[Edited 2012-09-21 11:04:00]

[Edited 2012-09-21 11:07:37]
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mbmbos
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:04 pm

I'm not sitting down. Tax returns for 2011 only. Not the years where he most likely paid less.

And by the way, 14%? Ridiculous!
 
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Dreadnought
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 1):
And by the way, 14%? Ridiculous!

Why?

He earned $1000 way back when, and paid around $450 in taxes (Federal. State and Local)

The remaining $550, he invested and earned another $50, on which he pays another 14% in taxes.

Please explain why he should pay full income rates on that $50, when already nearly half his original earnings went to taxes.

Capital Gains taxes should not exist at all.
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PHX787
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:15 pm

He already paid his taxes on his income, and now what he's paying is dividends from his investments. He already paid the 40-50% on taxes when he got the initial investments. That's all been taxed previously. This second income is dividends, already taxed money. The taxed money gets automatically removed from the paycheck. This IRS report only shows what gets re-taxed, such as property taxes, federal, state, local, school taxes, etc., taxes people pay normally that aren't necessarily based off income. If the government didn't tax the initial income before he received it, that 13 million would have been reported as 26 million. Simple.

Learn the basics of capital gains taxes before complaining (all this information I got from my dad who works for the banks and gets his income directly taxed by the government, but makes considerably less than Romney.)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Capital Gains taxes should not exist at all.
   thank you. Welcome to my respected user's list.

[Edited 2012-09-21 11:16:44]

[Edited 2012-09-21 11:17:12]
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pu
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

How do we know how much he paid in taxes initially off the income? It may have been 0 or 45% or anywere in between.

Saying it "has already been taxed" once is ridiculous. Each new additional income is more income, regardless of where it came from, and it is the INTEREST, not the underlying asset that is being taxed.

He should pay higher taxes because people who simply OWN things and collect rent (or interest) off what they own do little to contribute to the growth of the economy and much of the income of the wealthy comes from what they OWN instead of what they DO.

Furthermore, it is a structural failure of capitalism that merely owning an asset generates wealth potentially forever...thats how lop sided societies in Latin America are perpetuated where a small owning class keeps everyone else in poverty. It is necessary to tax these asset owners so they either have to keep on working/contributing or have to sell what they own.

Owning physical or monetary assets in any event should not perpetuate wealth beyond the generation that earned it, which again is another reason for the tax.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-21 11:27:02]
 
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casinterest
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Please explain why he should pay full income rates on that $50, when already nearly half his original earnings went to taxes.

Capital Gains taxes should not exist at all

Because that is the way the tax code exists.
Are you suggesting we alter it further to have less revenue to pay for spending. Which by the way even the GOP can't figure out how to lower without getting yelled at.
Seems like a play right out of the George Bush Playbook
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mt99
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Capital Gains taxes should not exist at all.

So you want him to pay 0% in taxes? Would that make him be part of the 47% that is voting for Obama?
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PHX787
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 5):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
Quoting pu (Reply 4):

All 3 of you do some research on what capital gains is.

I'll repeat myself: Romney's returns that HAVE ALREADY BEEN TAXED, which do not report on an IRS filing. It's money that never lands in the hands of Romney, pretty much.
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Kiwirob
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
He already paid the 40-50% on taxes when he got the initial investments.

Can you prove it, if he had an integrity he'd release everything, the fact that he hasn't makes me and a lot of other people think he has something to hide.
 
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casinterest
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:37 pm

[

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Please explain why he should pay full income rates on that $50, when already nearly half his original earnings went to taxes.

Because captial gains is about gains made for investing money in someone else's business, by which you expect a return on time and money. It is earnings. By the same token, if you lose money, guess what..... you claim a tax deduction.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Democrats can sit down now.

No. Responsible people are still paying attention and asking for more. But folks with small attention spans , and no attention to details can move on whistling in the wind and worry about birht certiffcates.
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PSA53
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:43 pm

Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
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Revelation
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 1):
Tax returns for 2011 only.

I guess we should use the singular, then.
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clemsonaj
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:49 pm

You know it's a bad week for Romney when he's drawing attention to his tax returns. Something that you haven't noticed is that he avoided taking all the available deductions for his charitable contributions. His effective tax rate should have been closer to 9% for 2011. Instead he chose to pay a little more this year to avoid the headache of trying to explain an effective 9% rate.

Also a pinky-swear from Romney's accountant doesn't amount to much confidence in those numbers.

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Dreadnought
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
He should pay higher taxes because people who simply OWN things and collect rent (or interest) off what they own do little to contribute to the growth of the economy

And here we have an example of the ignorance that exists on the left. Investment capital is EVERYTHING. Investment capital is what every company requires to expand their business. You make those investments more expensive (like taxing them more), you will have have less of it - people will stash their money into gold bullion or cash, in which case I would agree - that does not do anything for the economy. A $10,000 gold brick sitting in your safe is essentially $10,000 taken out of the economy. Not so with $10,000 that you invest in stocks or bonds.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 5):
Because that is the way the tax code exists.

The way the tax code exists is that he pays 14%, not full income rates

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):
Can you prove it, if he had an integrity he'd release everything, the fact that he hasn't makes me and a lot of other people think he has something to hide.

That's not what you or anyone else asked for. You guys asked for 10 years. He's been retired for more than that, so the past 10 years would be more of the same investment income. But of course you knew that.

Nobody asked to see how much he paid in the 1990s; when his total tax rates (including local etc) would have been 50% or more. For the Dems that would be counterproductive.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
Because captial gains is about gains made for investing money in someone else's business, by which you expect a return on time and money. It is earnings. By the same token, if you lose money, guess what..... you claim a tax deduction.

Small comfort. I'd rather not make the loss in the first place.
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mt99
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
I'll repeat myself: Romney's returns that HAVE ALREADY BEEN TAXED, which do not report on an IRS filing. It's money that never lands in the hands of Romney, pretty much.

We get it dude, calm down, but i still think that "income is income" regardless of the source.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Capital Gains taxes should not exist at all.

Is this part of Mitt's proposal?
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casinterest
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
The way the tax code exists is that he pays 14%, not full income rates

He paid a higher rate than he could have.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
mall comfort. I'd rather not make the loss in the first place.

So would everyone, but that is the tax code. Also , if you invest for less than a year and reap a big profit, then you pay full taxes as you should. You put your money out there to work for you , so it could work for someone else to make a profit in another company. The fact that long term gains is low, is due ot the fact that you are allowing your money to be tied u[p for longer and longer.
Capital gains exists and should exist, as it effectively a worker for the company you invest in.
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zckls04
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Romney Releases Tax Returns

My question is WHY? He's waited until JUST after everybody's forgotten about it and is now resurrecting the story. This campaign is a shambles.
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casinterest
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 16):
My question is WHY? He's waited until JUST after everybody's forgotten about it and is now resurrecting the story. This campaign is a shambles.

Umm he promised to relase 2011 when it was done.
The others are just going to be summary pages, and will not contain the actual returns.
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bhill
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:14 pm

Meh...2008-2009 please. Especially 2009...
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Ken777
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Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
It's all interest, stuff that was already taxed previously.



Or hidden in Swill Bank Accounts he had, or Bahama depots he had, or Caribbean accounts he had.

My bet is that the 14% rates or '10 and '11 are the highest he has had and he's only paying them because he wanted to un for President.

Ant that, IMO, is why he is keeping his previous tax returns well hidden. He doesn't want the political embarrassment of making tens of millions in a year and having zero taxes paid.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Democrats can sit down now.

Democrats don'e have a problem with people making money. Or reducing taxes. It was a Democrat (JFK) that cut the top tax rate from 90% (the rate the Republicans used) to 75%.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Capital Gains taxes should not exist at all.

Correct. It should be taxed at normal income rates. There is no justifiable reason for lower rates for capital gains. It just increases the national debt.
 
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 16):
My question is WHY? He's waited until JUST after everybody's forgotten about it and is now resurrecting the story. This campaign is a shambles.

Sure it is, but his taxes have not just not been forgotten, they are automatically becoming front and center through his own cynical remarks that have come to light – if he still chickens out from releasing the same number of years as every other recent candidate after that, he's simply toast.

The irony is that his entire campaign was supposed to be about taxes first and foremost. In more than one way, that has come more true than he'd ever dreamed of.

He's not free to make many choices there any more. His problem is that actually releasing his older tax returns would apparently be so toxic that he'd rather lose the election than put them forward.

That in itself makes a statement of its own.
 
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
Owning physical or monetary assets in any event should not perpetuate wealth beyond the generation that earned it, which again is another reason for the tax.

That philosophy is too abhorrent for words. When one owns something, be it physical, land, equity in a business, or financial instruments they own it outright and should be the sole entity to determine the fate of whatever it is they own. It isn't a rental for life, it's ownership. Whether you want to give it to your kids, charity, make it a trust, or anything else I don't care but it must be under the sole control of the person who owns it.

Quoting bhill (Reply 18):
Meh...2008-2009 please. Especially 2009...

You just want to blast him for writing off losses suffered in 2008. Just like everybody did.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
There is no justifiable reason for lower rates for capital gains. It just increases the national debt.

It didn't increase the national debt for the first seven decades of the capital gains tax.
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pu
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Investment capital is EVERYTHING. Investment capital is what every company requires to expand their business.

No.
Banks create money out of thin air in the fractional reserve banking system. Its called making loans. Individual investors play a relatively SMALL role in financing corporate expansion. "Investing" in stocks or bonds does nothing to help the business expand unless you buy at the IPO, "investing" in the stock market is not investing at all in the economy or helping the underlying company...the stock market is booming, job growth is stagnent.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
ou make those investments more expensive (like taxing them more),

Hahahahahah......there is historically no correlation between capital gains tax rates and promoting GDP growth.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3837

...all reducing capital gains tax rates do is make the rich richer. They don't actually invest more of it and create more jobs when tax rates are lower. The big problem with some arachaic Republican thinking is that they are married to a DOCTRINE that looks good in books, instead of practical realities that actually work, as shown by:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/investing...ts-gdp-outperform-under-democrats/


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
ou will have have less of it - people will stash their money into gold bullion or cash,

If the choice were invest in the stock market or hide your money under the mattress, I might agree with you, but in fact there are many more options than simply your crude udnerstanding of "investment capital" and investing in gold, for example, captial gains rates can be used to encourage "investing" that actually helps the economy (e.g. domestic investments in infrastructure, innovation and job-producing projects) instead of merely allowing any paper asset that does nothing except make the rich richer.

Pu
 
PPVRA
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
thats how lop sided societies in Latin America are perpetuated where a small owning class keeps everyone else in poverty.

High inflation and hyperinflation keeps people in Latin America in poverty, not the "owners" of real assets. The owners of real assets in Latin America would much rather have a wealthier population to sell their goods to.

Large landowners would much rather sell their unproductive lands and invest the money in something that actually generates a return, like bonds, but it in a highly inflationary environment there is zero incentive to do this unless you want to lose everything.

[Edited 2012-09-21 12:54:18]
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something
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Capital Gains taxes should not exist at all.

Yes, revolutionary idea. Name one country that has done this, or implemented ''Republican'' economic plans and has succeeded. I can name about 10 off the top of the my head that did, and failed miserably.

I'll start: Ireland.

Your turn..

A country who's fiscally much more left than the US Democrats but is doing rather well:

Sweden.

But please, feed me historic precedence of the functionality of any of their propositions. I'm exicted..

Edit: More hilarity...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Investment capital is EVERYTHING. Investment capital is what every company requires to expand their business. You make those investments more expensive (like taxing them more), you will have have less of it

You learn about investments in the first semester of your bachelor's degree in economics. About the macroeconomic impact of taxes on investment capital in either the first, or the semester. As I've finished both, and had to familiarize myself with all theories surrounding the capital gains tax, I can guarantee that you have no such education on the matter.

Furthermore, you conveniently leave out all the consequences, or as you would say CONSEQUENCES, that the absense of tax revenue derived from capital gains taxes has. But again, the economic institutions of this world will be thrilled to be proven wrong by you.

[Edited 2012-09-21 13:13:05]
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting clemsonaj (Reply 12):
You know it's a bad week for Romney when he's drawing attention to his tax returns.

I thought it was a bad week for him when he went to London and manged to piss off rich white folks, but this one tops that.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 16):
My question is WHY? He's waited until JUST after everybody's forgotten about it and is now resurrecting the story. This campaign is a shambles.

When I first read this thread, I thought it was about him releasing 8 years of tax returns and thought he was doing something big to try to turn the tide. When I read it was just the one year, I thought the same thing - his campaign is being run by idiots. All they are doing is handing the tax return issue back to the Dems and re-enforcing the notion that Romney is hiding things.
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PPVRA
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 22):
Banks create money out of thin air in the fractional reserve banking system. Its called making loans. Individual investors play a relatively SMALL role in financing corporate expansion. "Investing" in stocks or bonds does nothing to help the business expand unless you buy at the IPO, "investing" in the stock market is not investing at all in the economy or helping the underlying company...the stock market is booming, job growth is stagnent.

You, sir, have no concept of how fractional reserve banking and the money multiplier works.

Buying newly-issued bond is a direct loan to the business. Buying newly issued stock is a direct investment into that business.

Trading stock in the market that isn't newly issued is simply you trading places with the original investor.

Quoting pu (Reply 22):
...all reducing capital gains tax rates do is make the rich richer. They don't actually invest more of it and create more jobs when tax rates are lower. The big problem with some arachaic Republican thinking is that they are married to a DOCTRINE that looks good in books, instead of practical realities that actually work, as shown by:

How does lower capital gains taxes only make the rich richer if they don't reinvest it?

If capital tax rates are low, it tips the balance from using the money NOW (consuming) to the FUTURE (investing) because it raises the benefits of waiting.

It's utterly wrongheaded to think that reducing the incentive to invest for the long run will improve the economy.

Quoting pu (Reply 22):
captial gains rates can be used to encourage "investing" that actually helps the economy (e.g. domestic investments in infrastructure, innovation and job-producing projects) instead of merely allowing any paper asset that does nothing except make the rich richer.

Wow, this only gets worse! Paper assets???? I guess my car's ownership title is just paper - there is no real asset behind it! I HAVE BEEN DUPED!   

And never mind about government infrastructure, talk about a massive misallocation of resources. And incredibly mismanaged, to boot!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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zckls04
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 17):
Umm he promised to relase 2011 when it was done.

Yes, I'm questioning the timing, not releasing the returns. He effectively had no choice to release something, though the law doesn't require it.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
When I first read this thread, I thought it was about him releasing 8 years of tax returns and thought he was doing something big to try to turn the tide. When I read it was just the one year, I thought the same thing - his campaign is being run by idiots. All they are doing is handing the tax return issue back to the Dems and re-enforcing the notion that Romney is hiding things.

Exactly.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
You, sir, have no concept of how fractional reserve banking and the money multiplier works.

On a more lighthearted note can I just say this is the finest piece of trash talk I have ever heard in my life.

[Edited 2012-09-21 13:23:22]
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JakeOrion
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:22 pm

The country is falling into chaos and yet all we have to focus on is Romney' Tax Returns?

I love people's priorities.
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PPVRA
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 29):
On a more lighthearted note can I just say this is the finest piece of trash talk I have ever heard in my life.

Huh? Explain.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
D L X
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Please explain why he should pay full income rates on that $50,

because he earned $50.

I'm not sure why that's hard...
 
PSA53
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting jakeorion (Reply 30):
The country is falling into chaos and yet all we have to focus on is Romney' Tax Returns?

I love people's priorities.

Great point.Meanwhile,Obama is allowed to hide his failures and continued blame game.
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PPVRA
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
It should be taxed at normal income rates.

It already is. It's called corporate taxes.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
There is no justifiable reason for lower rates for capital gains. It just increases the national debt.

To take on debt is a decision, not an effect.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Revelation
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting jakeorion (Reply 30):
The country is falling into chaos and yet all we have to focus on is Romney' Tax Returns?

The GOP spent a lot of time and energy in the pre-9/11 chaos having an inquest into a blow job.

It seems they might have wanted to spend their time looking into national security issues, along with banking and investing issues too.

I thought they justified that because they were trying to determine if we could trust the guy or not.

Seems to me we have the same question about Romney, one he could easily answer in seconds if he chose to do so.
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Flighty
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Why?

This was all wage income. These investment toilet bank asses should pay the full marginal rate on their wage income. Sure, I could set up a money laundering chicanery outfit exactly like they do. Only I might actually get prosecuted, because I have only a few Harvard lawyers or mathematicians to help me, not 3,000 like they do.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 1):
And by the way, 14%? Ridiculous!

Oh, wah! Cry me a river. The last time I checked, 14% paid taxes is sure a hell of a lot better than paying 0%!
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mt99
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 38):
Oh, wah! Cry me a river. The last time I checked, 14% paid taxes is sure a hell of a lot better than paying 0%!

"According to an announcement by the campaign Friday, the Romneys could have had a lower tax rate than 14.1% in 2011 if they had claimed more of their charitable deductions–an amount that equaled 30% of their income. Romney made $13.7 million mostly off of investment income last year."

However, the Romneys only claimed 16% in charitable deductions, thus keeping their income tax rate higher, in order "to conform" to Romney's previous comments about his tax rate, the statement read Friday.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...to-keep-his-word-and-break-it-too/
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pu
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
You, sir, have no concept of how fractional reserve banking and the money multiplier works.

I finished an MBA from L S E and before retiring I helped run the commercial lending department of the largest bank in Sweden. Your credentials?
.
I don't post remarks based on what my dad said or what my teacher told me today. I am not married to economic policy soundbites used to buy your votes in elections. I am only married to what works.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Buying newly-issued bond is a direct loan to the business. Buying newly issued stock is a direct investment into that business.

Trading stock in the market that isn't newly issued is simply you trading places with the original investor.

In households where English is the native language, my earlier post is obviously saying what you wrote here (but are strangely acting like you are arguing with me)
... the reward of lower capital gains taxes ("incentive") does nothing to enhance the economy. Its a shell game in many cases, like the stock market (simply changing one owner for another)...unless you buy at the IPO. No public benefit for rich people doing this, thus they should not be getting a tax breaksimply for moving money around.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
How does lower capital gains taxes only make the rich richer if they don't reinvest it?

The key word in your question is LOWER. If the capital gains tax is made lower, the rich get richer by in most cases investing in paper assets (e.g. buying stock on the stock market or buying into a bond fund) that does zero to help the economy or produce jobs. Worse, they may invest overseas and get a tax benefit from doing so.
...
Find a mechanism that ensures the rich get the benefit of a lower tax rate only when they invest to create jos and GDP growth, and I am perfectly happy giving them a break on taxes. But most of the time they invest purely for financial returns and should not be rewarded by tax incentives.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
If capital tax rates are low, it tips the balance from using the money NOW (consuming) to the FUTURE (investing) because it raises the benefits of waiting.

It's utterly wrongheaded to think that reducing the incentive to invest for the long run will improve the economy.

As mentioned, the difference between me and the teen agers who report what they've read in class, what their dad told them or what they heard on the internet is that I talk about what works. NOT THEORY. again...
THERE IS NO HISTORICAL CORRELATION BETWEEN LOWER CAPITAL GAINS TAXES AND GDP GROWTH OR JOB CREATION.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Wow, this only gets worse! Paper assets???? I guess my car's ownership title is just paper - there is no real asset behind it! I HAVE BEEN DUPED!

In the world of the educated a paper asset is one where there is no physical asset to back it up, sorry I used terminology above your head.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-21 14:17:40]

[Edited 2012-09-21 14:19:05]

[Edited 2012-09-21 14:22:00]
 
BMI727
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
It already is. It's called corporate taxes.

That's really not a good argument. Money that leaves a company as wages is taxed at the corporate level too.

There's no huge ideological reason why capital gains tax rates should be different, but raising them will suddenly make every US investment look a little bit worse.

Also, people who tell you that not having capital gains taxed as regular income is what causes the national debt to explode are lying to you.

Quoting pu (Reply 40):
Find a mechanism that ensures the rich get the benefit of a lower tax rate only when they invest to create jos and GDP growth, and I am perfectly happy giving them a break on taxes.

I disagree. The government should not be telling people what they ought to be investing in.
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PPVRA
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 40):
I finished an MBA from L S E and before retiring I helped run the commercial lending department of the largest bank in Sweden.

Great. So you also know that without savings, there is no banking system, right?

Quoting pu (Reply 40):
... the reward of lower capital gains taxes ("incentive") does nothing to enhance the economy. Its a shell game in many cases, like the stock market (simply changing one owner for another)...unless you buy at the IPO. No public benefit for rich people doing this, thus they should not be getting a tax breaksimply for moving money around.

There must ALWAYS be somebody behind that investment, whether it is stocks or bonds. While trading spaces doesn't result in new investments in and of itself, it frees up cash of the original investor for other uses, like starting a new company or for consumption purposes. Trading also sets prices which is fundamental to resource allocation in an economy.

Quoting pu (Reply 40):
If the capital gains tax is made lower, the rich get richer by in most cases investing in paper assets (e.g. buying stock on the stock market or buying into a bond fund) that does zero to help the economy or produce jobs.

See comment above.

Quoting pu (Reply 40):
Find a mechanism that ensures the rich get the benefit of a lower tax rate only when they invest to create jos and GDP growth, and I am perfectly happy giving them a break on taxes. But most of the time they invest purely for financial returns and should not be rewarded by tax incentives.

They get the benefit whether they reinvest or whether they consume the dividends/interest. There are legal mechanisms that kinda accomplish what you are saying by exempting taxation if the funds get reinvested, but no economic mechanism - other than saying they would get greater benefit by reinvesting, since that will grow their wealth.

Quoting pu (Reply 40):
THERE IS NO HISTORICAL CORRELATION BETWEEN LOWER CAPITAL GAINS TAXES AND GDP GROWTH OR JOB CREATION.

There are a million different factors that affect economic growth. It is extremely easy to imagine a scenario with zero capital gains taxes but extremely high income taxes that still hurt economic growth.

That study is COMPLETELY USELESS.

Quoting pu (Reply 40):
In the world of the educated a paper asset is one where there is no physical asset to back it up, sorry I used terminology above your head.

The only assets that come to my mind that fit your definition are things like patents and copyrights. You can say bonds are backed by nothing more than a promise, but there is very real cash behind it. Stocks have all sorts of assets behind it - both physical and non (like patents).

[Edited 2012-09-21 14:55:29]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:54 pm

Interesting that Harry Reid is now saying Romney "manipulated" his taxes, conveniently ignoring the fact he's been publicly saying Romney hasn't paid any taxes at all.

Sen. Reid needs to shut up for his own sake; the good people of Nevada may decide they've had it with his shenanigans.
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PPVRA
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
That's really not a good argument. Money that leaves a company as wages is taxed at the corporate level too.

Corporate taxes affect only profits. Since to arrive at profit you need to exclude all expenses, which includes wages, it means companies don't pay corporate taxes on wages. At that point it's just personal income taxes and payroll taxes.

[Edited 2012-09-21 15:00:16]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ltbewr
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:18 pm

I pay about net 10% in Fed income taxes on a gross income of just over $50K after deductions for State income taxes and deductions for health care including HC insurance premiums. Throw in my pay deducted share of SS/Medicare taxes, and my total income based tax rate exceeds that of the very rich Mitt Romney. If he was paying a net of something like 20%, like his running mate Ryan, or President Obama's, that would be a lot better.

This proves that our Federal Tax policy is really screwed up and fixed the wrong way when a multi-millionaire pays an effect rate of tax on his income less than a 'middle class' person does.
 
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 45):
This proves that our Federal Tax policy is really screwed up and fixed the wrong way when a multi-millionaire pays an effect rate of tax on his income less than a 'middle class' person does.

How many companies do you own and how much tax do these companies pay?

All this really means is that tax laws are way too complex to have a reasonable discussion over it without requiring everybody to take classes on it.

[Edited 2012-09-21 15:26:22]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
While trading spaces doesn't result in new investments in and of itself, it

Exactly, there is no new investment. Therefore no one should get taxed at a lower rate on income gained from investing in the stock market, which along with home ownership is probably the single biggest asset subject to capital gains.
.
The sheep are sold by the writers of public opinion that capital gains taxes should be lower to encourage investment, but "investing" in stocks as you say "doesn't result in new investments in and of itself," therefore there should be no tax advantage to doing it because the premise is invalid.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
it frees up cash of the original investor for other uses, like starting a new company or for consumption purposes.

That is theory straight from freshman economics of an ideally functioning world but is not backed by real data. Likewise, it is sold as justification for lower capital gains tax rates even though the stated benefits do not exist in the real world. I am fine with letting the original investor at an IPO get a tax benefit with lower capital gains tax rates, which would for once accomplish the advertised benefit of capital gains tax breaks
...... BUT, everyone else who buys the stock later, aka "invests in the stock market" should gain no benefit for merely changing ownership with someone else, it adds nothing to GDP, does nothing for job growth.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
They get the benefit whether they reinvest or whether they consume the dividends/interest. There are legal mechanisms that kinda accomplish what you are saying by exempting taxation if the funds get reinvested, but no economic mechanism - other than saying they would get greater benefit by reinvesting, since that will grow their wealth.

Bring the capital gains tax rate to 0% on IPO investors. Great! Watch an IPO explosion! New companies left and right. (many will fail but 1/20 will thrive and 1/100 will be another Apple, Google, etc...) Bring the capital gains tax rate to 0% on any investment that immediately and quantifiably serves the public policy goals of GDP growth and job creation. BUT, creating a tax benefit on ALL capital gains (like stock investing) simply makes the rich richer as they move money around and designate a "capital gain" what the rest of us would simply call "income".

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
There are a million different factors that affect economic growth. It is extremely easy to imagine a scenario with zero capital gains taxes but extremely high income taxes that still hurt economic growth.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
That study is COMPLETELY USELESS.

If the capital gains tax break is sold as helpful to the economy, it should be quantifiable. It is not. The idea is PURE THEORY and does not find support in the data.

... The study I posted merely points that out. You are merely guessing/hoping that the rich will behave as a pedantic college Economics professor says they will and "invest" in such a way that we all benefit. In the globalized world, today they usually don't, ....although in yesteryear with limited investment options they usually did actually do something constructive with their money. Today they can instantly play the currency markets (hmmmm.....why award a tax break to people who live off currency trading?, play the stock market, sell options on stock futures and do all kinds of things THAT IN NO WAY QUALIFY AS "INVESTING" AS SOLD TO THE PUBLIC BY THE CAPITAL-GAINS-TAX-CUTTING sheep followers of the wealthy.

The fundamental difference between you and me is I'm speaking only in realities. You speak in textbook theories. You are quoting economic theory (of the 1950s) which says a rich man will invest excess funds in ways that benefit us all. Today capital gains can be generated in a million different ways, in a few seconds and in a few electronic impulses crisscrossing the globe,many of which are actually harmful to GDP growth and job creation, thus there should be no blanket tax break for capital gains.

Again, tax breaks for GDP growing and job-creating investments (like IPOs) are perfectly reasonable for tax breaks, but these investments are rarely chosen by billionaires who can easily make money just moving money between one asset and another in arbitrage.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-21 15:45:40]
 
flymia
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:18 pm

Just an interesting thought when you add the taxes and the amount he gave to charity Mitt "gave away" 38.5% of his income since 1990. That's a lot of money. He isn't just hoarding all his money in bank accounts like everyone wants to think. Get over it guys. He follows the laws of the U.S. and gives a ridiculous amount of income to good causes.

I know I would and I know just about everyone in this thread would pay the minimum amount required in their taxes whether they make $100k or $50 million. So this attack on Romney needs to end already. If you want to talk about a flawed tax code sure go ahead but attacks on him are baseless and ridiculous. Mitt follows the law and gets attacked. President Obama admits to using illegal drugs and no one cares. President Obama would not be eligible to be a Federal Agent and would have had a hard time passing a background check for a security clearance and here we are, people are arguing about how a guy legally pays low taxes. This makes perfect sense.

[Edited 2012-09-21 16:39:02]
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PPVRA
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
While trading spaces doesn't result in new investments in and of itself, it

Exactly, there is no new investment.

But it's supporting the old investment, which otherwise you would have to yank out of the company which in turn could cause all sorts of problem, including bankruptcy.

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
it frees up cash of the original investor for other uses, like starting a new company or for consumption purposes.

That is theory straight from freshman economics of an ideally functioning world but is not backed by real data.

No, it's OBVIOUS that the person selling the stock or bond will have cash proceeds and will do something with it.

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
Likewise, it is sold as justification for lower capital gains tax rates even though the stated benefits do not exist in the real world.

What is sold as a justification for lower capital gains tax? My explanation of why trading is good for the economy?

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
Bring the capital gains tax rate to 0% on IPO investors. Great! Watch an IPO explosion! New companies left and right.

You do realize that capital gains tax isn't limited to the stock market, right? There is ZERO incentives for IPOs in eliminating the capital gains tax.

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
BUT, creating a tax benefit on ALL capital gains (like stock investing) simply makes the rich richer as they move money around and designate a "capital gain" what the rest of us would simply call "income".

You realize that the stock market is an avenue that open the door to investing in very large companies to very small investors? You would be hurting small investors the most while benefitting venture capitalists with hefty bank accounts.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 48):
Just an interesting thought when you add the taxes and the amount he gave to charity Mitt "gave away" 38.5% of his income since 1990. That's a lot of money. He isn't just hoarding all his money in bank accounts like everyone wants to think. Get over it guys. He follows the laws of the U.S. and gives a ridiculous amount of income to good causes

which he undoubtedly claims back when he submits his tax returns...its a favorite of the rich!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 39):

What's your point? He paid his tax.   
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pu
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RE: Romney Releases 2011 Tax Returns

Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 49):
No, it's OBVIOUS that the person selling the stock or bond will have cash proceeds and will do something with it.

Yes, something has to be done with the money. But it should only get a tax incentive (lower tax rate) if how they "invested" the money demonstratively furthers the overall economic agenda of GDP growth and job creation. Otherwise let them pay the same rate as "regular" income.

For a long time it was practically impossible for a wealthy person to spend money and NOT somehow help the economy, which is the basis of trickle-down economics, aka Reagonomics. HOWEVER, today billionaires are borderless and make a handsome living just changing money from one currency to another....no one benefits except them and they deserve no tax break for it.

IF their capital gains came from, for instance, trading currencies and dumping the dollar for the euro (or vice versa) they should get no special tax favors for this, which may in fact hurt the national economy. George Soros killed the pound in the 90s, broke the Bank of England vastly damaging Britian, yet if he did the same to the dollar and broke the Fed he would get a tax break for it! (according to the religion that capital gains are always desirable and the wealthy ALWAYS invest in job-creating GDP-enhancing ways).

....it is ok to give a tax break to quantifiably job-creating GDP-improving investments, like say, building a factory. But no tax breaks for capital gains on mere financial transactions that in most cases take place overseas and do nothing for the economy. I've said my peace on this, thanks for chatting.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-21 17:25:42]

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