Kiwirob
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Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:08 pm

I think this has to chalked up to another only in America story.

Quote:
A Houston police officer shot and killed a one-armed, one-legged man in a wheelchair on Saturday inside a group home after police say the double amputee threatened the officer and aggressively waved a metal object that turned out to be a pen.

Rest of the story here

I can't understand how a pen could be mistaken for a knife and how two fit and able police officers couldn't detain a person in the victims physical condition.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:58 pm

It indeed always amazes me how unprofessional US police forces are when compared to Europe and most of the other world.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
mham001
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:20 pm

A man with a knife in close quarters is more dangerous than a man with a gun. In this case though, it should be easy to overcome with a good front kick to the face of a guy sitting down.

I agree that the way these cops like to buy all the toys and puff up on steroids, they should have better ways of dealing with this than lethal force.

Here is a much better report. http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/us/texas-amputee-shooting/index.html

I happen to have a neighbor like this. His father dumps him off in a remote cabin because he can't get along in society. He can get extremely belligerent, I nearly pulled on him once myself. He is scary enough that I cannot house my family there. The police should be trained to handle this though.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:48 pm

Sounds like a trigger happy cop...
 
Maverick623
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:21 pm

How's about we keep the anti-American sentiment off this story, yeah? I could go right now and grab half a dozen similar incidents that have happened in Europe.


Yes, it is easy to mistake a pen for a knife when someone is waving their "hand" wildly about in a thrusting motion. That being said, this sounds all wrong. The police statement said the suspect wouldn't show his "hands" (he only had one hand!), and cornered the non-shooting officer while advancing on him (which just makes zero sense). However:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3):
Sounds like a trigger happy cop...

Sounds like a cop who never actually recovered mentally from his incident in 2009 where he shot a knife-wielding man who had just stabbed someone to death. He likely saw the thrusting motions and instinctively fired, even though the other officer was likely in little danger.


Sounds like a sad tale all around.
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dragon-wings
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
A man with a knife in close quarters is more dangerous than a man with a gun.

They could of used pepper spray or a taser. You don't have to be to close to a suspect to use that stuff.
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baldwin471
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:49 pm

I just don't understand why he shot to kill. Shoot him in the arm holding the 'knife' (pen) or in the leg or something.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:05 am

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 6):
I just don't understand why he shot to kill. Shoot him in the arm holding the 'knife' (pen) or in the leg or something.

That's not what you do with a gun. When you shoot, you shoot center mass. Agree of disagree, that's the SOP for all the police departments I've seen. I've NEVER heard of any department training their officers to "shoot the arm."

When you draw your weapon and fire, it's to the point where you intend to kill or incapacitate the suspect. That's what the gun is for.

Now I am sure he could have backed up or something faster than drawing and shooting, but I'll leave the Monday-morning quarterbacking to the department. It appears the police officer is in fault, but the devil is in the details

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 5):
They could of used pepper spray or a taser. You don't have to be to close to a suspect to use that stuff.

In theory (and I am not assuming the suspect is in a wheelchair) if you are in close quarters with a suspect that is trying to knife you, you are not only justified, but probably encouraged to use a gun. A knife will kill and is a threat to an officer. I think the range is something like within 21 feet a guy can charge you with a knife before an average officer can draw and fire. Now with back up and time to plan, I'm sure the police would not go in guns blazing.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
It indeed always amazes me how unprofessional US police forces are when compared to Europe and most of the other world.

That's a pretty ignorant generalization   And I assume you know this officer is totally guilty because you were at his trial and were on the jury that gave a guilty sentence? Not saying he's innocent, but you weren't there.

Innocent until proven guilty... and stereotypes = bad
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baldwin471
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
When you draw your weapon and fire, it's to the point where you intend to kill or incapacitate the suspect. That's what the gun is for.

I think that is a pretty flawed system. Why kill a man when you can injure him to the point to which he can not injure you? I suppose the centre mass is the biggest target, but if the officer was close enough to the bloke that he thought he could've been stabbed, then he should have a good enough aim to incapacitate him without going for the torso. Maybe i'm being naive, as we never have these stories in the UK (Not US bashing by the way, i love the place). I do think police having guns is a bad idea though, especially if they can't hit an arm from 6 feet.
 
smittyone
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 8):
I think that is a pretty flawed system. Why kill a man when you can injure him to the point to which he can not injure you? I suppose the centre mass is the biggest target, but if the officer was close enough to the bloke that he thought he could've been stabbed, then he should have a good enough aim to incapacitate him without going for the torso. Maybe i'm being naive, as we never have these stories in the UK (Not US bashing by the way, i love the place). I do think police having guns is a bad idea though, especially if they can't hit an arm from 6 feet.

Not saying you are naive, but it just doesn't work this way outside of Hollywood. Pistol marksmanship is challenging enough...but in the heat of the moment - fear/adrenaline, time pressure, moving target etc. you aim center of mass and hope to hit the target (and nobody else).
 
baldwin471
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 9):
Not saying you are naive, but it just doesn't work this way outside of Hollywood. Pistol marksmanship is challenging enough...but in the heat of the moment - fear/adrenaline, time pressure, moving target etc. you aim center of mass and hope to hit the target (and nobody else).

Yeah i guess so. Why not use rubber bullets then? I've been on the receiving end of one and i can tell you the pain is unbelievable. I just think it would be a better way of doing things.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:47 am

Why couldn't they use the taser? Isn't it SOP to use taser first, if that doesn't work then use lethal force if necessary? WTH?!

Yeah, the cop was trigger happy, it seems. I think he should be removed from the force if he cannot handle his job. After reading the article, he killed one person so far, now he killed this guy. Yeah, he's gotta go.
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:52 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
It indeed always amazes me how unprofessional US police forces are when compared to Europe and most of the other world.

So, based on one incident or it could be ten or even twenty across a nation where there are over 800,000 (give or take) sworn law enforcement officers, protecting over 314,000,000 people, you declare that US police forces are unprofessional?

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 6):
. Shoot him in the arm holding the 'knife' (pen) or in the leg or something.
Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 8):
Why kill a man when you can injure him to the point to which he can not injure you?

Police officers are trained to shoot center-mass because that is the biggest target. In a stress situation, a person tends to loss fine motor skills, thus greatly affecting aim. A lot of that degradation can be mitigated by intense training, but your normal, local police officer is very unlikely to have that level of training. We're talking Special Forces type training. To assume an officer in a stress encounter can aim for any specific part of the body is unrealistic and dangerous.

To illustrate: 2 NYPD officers recently shot 9 bystanders while engaging a shooter. Do you think they would have had any luck "aiming to disarm." Why would you think a police officer in Houston is any better trained then a pair in NYC?

Just a reminder, what you see on television shows or in the movie theatre is not real.

Oh, and by the way, no one on this board was there. The police officer may be in the wrong. He may have been right. I will always give those guys the benefit of the doubt until the investigation is concluded.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 8):
I think that is a pretty flawed system. Why kill a man when you can injure him to the point to which he can not injure you? I suppose the centre mass is the biggest target, but if the officer was close enough to the bloke that he thought he could've been stabbed, then he should have a good enough aim to incapacitate him without going for the torso. Maybe i'm being naive, as we never have these stories in the UK (Not US bashing by the way, i love the place). I do think police having guns is a bad idea though, especially if they can't hit an arm from 6 feet.

If you are not trying to kill then you don't use a gun. Simple. Guns are for killing / incapacitating but pepperspray, tasers, batons, and even the officers' fists are used for less than lethal measures. Guns aren't at all for disabling body parts... pistols seem very self-explanatory but you'd be surprised at how extremely difficult it is to shoot them. The first time I shot a pistol I couldn't hit a target a few feet in front of me. Trained cops obviously have more training but it is NOTHING like the BS you see in the movies. Shoot a pistol and see for yourself.

Then if you have police departments setting SOPs for shooting arms, what happens when an officer accidentally shoots someone in the face? It will be a legal disaster.

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 10):
Why not use rubber bullets then?

You don't want your duty weapon not loaded with real bullets in case you'd need it. Not talking about the wheelchair guy, it's just a police thing in general. It needs to be readily accessible ready for deadly force. Instead of rubber bullets you have pepper spray, tasers, etc.

Now keep in mind, I'm in no way excusing anything. I'm just explaining why the commonly misunderstood use of firearms disabling body parts doesn't work, and the options for less than lethal measures. This is true for the US, but I'm pretty sure it is the same in most western countries. Guns are absolutely for killing/incapacitating... NOT anything else. Other measures like pepper spray and tasers are for threats not involving death or seriously bodily harm. I'm sure if you google it, the only place you'll see an officer (following SOP) shooting someone in the arm or something would be in a movie. Could be wrong, but that's how it is in all the American law enforcement agencies I've heard about. (I'm a Criminal Justice major so I know a lot about it.)

Further more, notice when an officer draws his/her firearm... it's very strict. You have to be in a situation where you think death or serious bodily harm will result. You can't get someone out of a car at gunpoint because they don't like the speeding ticket (unless you can substantiate you think there is a threat I mentioned.)



To summarize and for those that skipped to the bottom of my post: guns are for killing and incapacitating only!!! It is not inhumane because other methods are to be used in less major situations. In fact, using a gun for a situation that only requires a taser or pepper spray will get a cop in trouble. This does not take into account "what ifs..." if the police officer is being reasonable and think he's in grave danger, it doesn't matter if in the end something turns out to be a toy gun
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smittyone
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:33 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
After reading the article, he killed one person so far, now he killed this guy.

The article suggests that in the first incident his girlfriend and neighbor actually got stabbed...even if he was in the right the first time it's a fair question whether or not that traumatic event drove his decisionmaking when he thought his partner was in trouble. If I killed two people I think I'd be looking for a new gig anyway.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
So, based on one incident or it could be ten or even twenty across a nation where there are over 800,000 (give or take) sworn law enforcement officers, protecting over 314,000,000 people, you declare that US police forces are unprofessional?

I wish I was still 16-20 like our friend from Finland and knew everything about everything. Amazing how stupid I have become since.

On the other hand it has been about eight minutes since the last declaration of how much the US sucks compared to the rest of the world, so I guess we were due.

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 10):
Why not use rubber bullets then? I've been on the receiving end of one and i can tell you the pain is unbelievable.


You are officially the first person I've ever heard admit that! It's a good question, I wonder what the implications would be though...getting sued by the person who gets hurt or killed by the rubber bullet, or getting sued by the people you couldn't protect because the perps weren't stopped by the rubber bullet. Sounds like they'd be set up for a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

At least with a real weapon you know what you are getting once the cat is out of the bag. Which makes proper application of the 'use of force continuum' so important.

(edit: I posted this before I saw DeltaMD90's post...agree 100%)

[Edited 2012-09-23 18:36:24]
 
Maverick623
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
Isn't it SOP to use taser first, if that doesn't work then use lethal force if necessary?

Simply, no.

The level of force authorized is directly related to the danger presented to the officer and bystanders. An officer is limited in escalation only by the actions of the suspect, and is generally authorized to use whatever level of force the suspect presents themselves, taking into account probable outcomes.

There have been cases where unarmed individuals have been shot, and the shooting being justified because of either the viciousness of the beating or the sheer size difference between an attacking suspect and the officer where the officer was in reasonable fear that he would be overpowered and have his weapon taken away from him. It's happened more than once...

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 10):
Why not use rubber bullets then? I've been on the receiving end of one and i can tell you the pain is unbelievable.

Because like it or not, police MUST have the upper hand in potentially deadly situations. You don't use rubber bullets against someone with real bullets, not even in the UK. Also, there are certain drugs out there where the user will literally feel no pain. Remember the guy who ate the homeless guy's face off in Miami? He was shot once, and didn't even flinch. It took 4 more shots to end the attack.

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 6):
Shoot him in the arm holding the 'knife' (pen) or in the leg or something.

That's not how it works. Unlike in the movies, being shot in the arm is not merely a painful "flesh wound". Assuming one could aim good enough to do it, you still run the risk of having the bullet hit an artery, bouncing around, or exiting and reentering somewhere else, possibly into another (innocent) person.

The leg is even worse. Watch Black Hawk Down to see just how nasty that can be.


The third rule of carrying a gun: only point it at something you are willing to destroy. Because that's all it's good for.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 14):
Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 10):
Why not use rubber bullets then? I've been on the receiving end of one and i can tell you the pain is unbelievable.



You are officially the first person I've ever heard admit that!

Never been shot with rubber bullets (bb guns yes) but I've been gassed, pepper sprayed and tased (not breaking the law, in training) and I'll tell you that the taser will get me to do just about anything the officer wanted. I think I'd rather be shot dead than tased again... ouchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

But again, the rubber bullets are mostly in riots. An officer doesn't want his duty weapon being not ready to fire real bullets, and you have tasers and pepper spray which are just as effective and it doesn't disable to duty weapon from shooting real bullets. Plus, rubber bullets are a lot more dangerous. I think officially tasers and pepper spray is considered "non-lethal" and rubber bullets are "less than lethal" aka more dangerous and can still kill but aren't meant to. But it's been a while since I was in college so I'm kinda fuzzy
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Maverick623
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 14):
If I killed two people I think I'd be looking for a new gig anyway.

Police departments actually ask those kinds of questions in their interviews to prospective recruits. You'd be surprised at how many people think they want to be cops, but balk during the interview when they find out that must be able to kill someone without hesitation, and show back up to work as soon as 3 days later and possibly kill someone else.
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baldwin471
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
You don't use rubber bullets against someone with real bullets, not even in the UK.

But in the UK only specially trained officers can use firearms. There are special squads for them.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:08 am

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 18):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
You don't use rubber bullets against someone with real bullets, not even in the UK.

But in the UK only specially trained officers can use firearms. There are special squads for them.

I'd be willing to bet that their rules of engagement are similar to our police. Again, can't speak with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure
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baldwin471
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
I'd be willing to bet that their rules of engagement are similar to our police. Again, can't speak with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure

Maybe so, but normal officers in the UK don't have access to guns. They have to go through years of training and certification to be able to join the firearms response squad. I'm not going to say i know for sure but i'm pretty sure every US officer carries a gun, and most have inadequate training. Hell, you can get a gun license at 18 and pick one up from the local store!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:38 am

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 20):
Maybe so, but normal officers in the UK don't have access to guns. They have to go through years of training and certification to be able to join the firearms response squad. I'm not going to say i know for sure but i'm pretty sure every US officer carries a gun, and most have inadequate training. Hell, you can get a gun license at 18 and pick one up from the local store!

Oh I gotcha. Well without going way off topic, disarming a large portion of our cops would be disastrous. I was mainly talking about rules of engagement which are probably pretty similar. If we sent US cops to the UK I don't think much would change even if these police were still armed. Theoretically, if you have unarmed suspects in the UK causing trouble, the armed police (assuming they followed the rules) would act like your cops and not use weapons.

Point being, I don't think there is much of a difference between US and UK cops, it just so happens many UK cops aren't armed. Disarm the US cops or arm the UK cops and I think they'd act very similarly (given similar circumstances.)
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AirframeAS
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 20):
normal officers in the UK don't have access to guns.

Can you elaborate on as to why? This seems like this is only asking for trouble. I cannot imagine how many defensiveness cops in the UK has died in the line of duty because he/she could not have the tools to do his/her job. It's astounds me on this issue.

With that said, I wouldn't want to be a cop in the UK solely on this issue alone. I want to be able to defend myself at moments notice, instead of waiting for the "Gun Squad".   

Just a personal opinion.....not to mock the fine folks in the UK.
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baldwin471
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):

Point being, I don't think there is much of a difference between US and UK cops, it just so happens many UK cops aren't armed. Disarm the US cops or arm the UK cops and I think they'd act very similarly (given similar circumstances.)

Agreed. To be fair, if i was a policeman i'd feel much better about going to work if i knew i had a pistol in my pocket! And that isn't a euphemism  
 
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zkojq
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
It indeed always amazes me how unprofessional US police forces are when compared to Europe and most of the other world.

While it often seems so, I think the reality is that criminals in the US have a habit of being better armed than their counter-parts in Europe, presenting a greater danger to the police who have to adapt their actions/procedures appropriately. But yes, it often seems like there are plenty of cases where US police officers over react. Examples from the top of my head include the 'don't tase me bro' incident and a few years back when a police officer tasered an 86-yearold.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ar-old-bed-ridden-grandmother.html

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
I can't understand how a pen could be mistaken for a knife and how two fit and able police officers couldn't detain a person in the victims physical condition.

It would have to be a pretty big pen or very small knife.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I think the range is something like within 21 feet a guy can charge you with a knife before an average officer can draw and fire.

Surely the officer would already have his weapon drawn in a case like this where they feel threatened?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Point being, I don't think there is much of a difference between US and UK cops, it just so happens many UK cops aren't armed.

I think the big difference is not about the cops, but those who they have to deal with. In addition to what I mentioned above about a larger portion of the population being armed, you Americans unfortunately seem to get more than your fair share of nutjob criminals. Thus the need for the police to carry firearms is greater in the US.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Can you elaborate on as to why?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...t-trust-armed-police?newsfeed=true
There are other reasons also.
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rwessel
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Can you elaborate on as to why? This seems like this is only asking for trouble. I cannot imagine how many defensiveness cops in the UK has died in the line of duty because he/she could not have the tools to do his/her job. It's astounds me on this issue.

"Police deaths in New York and London during the twentieth century"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2586786/

"During the 20th century, 585 police officers in New York and 160 police officers in London died while participating in law enforcement activities. New York had markedly greater intentional police mortality rates compared to London throughout most of the 20th century, but these differences decreased significantly by the end of the century. Intentional gunshot wounds comprised 290 police deaths in New York, but only 14 police deaths in London. In New York, gun shot wounds (both intentional and unintentional) accounted for more occupational police deaths (51.6%) than did all other injury mechanisms combined. In London, motor vehicle collision was the most common cause (47.5%) of occupational police death."
 
Mir
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:22 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
This seems like this is only asking for trouble. I cannot imagine how many defensiveness cops in the UK has died in the line of duty because he/she could not have the tools to do his/her job. It's astounds me on this issue.

If Wikipedia is to be believed, since 2000, 22 police officers have been killed in crime-related situations (i.e. not something like being hit by a car while directing traffic), which amounts to about 2 per year. I'll put those numbers up against the US any day, even on a per capita basis.

-Mir
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Kiwirob
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
Yes, it is easy to mistake a pen for a knife when someone is waving their "hand" wildly about in a thrusting motion.

A pen and a knife look completely different.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
That's not what you do with a gun. When you shoot, you shoot center mass.

Except this officer shot him in the head.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I think the range is something like within 21 feet a guy can charge you with a knife before an average officer can draw and fire.

Now can you imagine a one armed man in a wheel chair waiving a knife and charging at you, can't happen at all, he's only got one arm, he can't hold the knife and wheel at the same time.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
To illustrate: 2 NYPD officers recently shot 9 bystanders while engaging a shooter. Do you think they would have had any luck "aiming to disarm." Why would you think a police officer in Houston is any better trained then a pair in NYC?

..and what about the "luck" of the bystanders? Police simply cannot use fire arms in situations where by-standers can get hurt.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Guns are absolutely for killing/incapacitating...

there are countries where that is seen completely different. Any police officer in most European countries will face an investigation by the state attornes's office of he/she kills a person.

OK, when police officers have more or less carte blanche in such situations they don't care what happens with thre assailant and that's the difference. In most other western countries the life of a person is valued and there is no difference made between an officer or someone wielding a knife, a pistol or just a pen.

Police officers are exactly that, not judges who hand down an instant execution death penalty.
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AF1624
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:00 am

Really ?!

I'm amazed how this can even create a debate.

The Police officer was pretty clearly trigger happy.

A one armed, one legged man on a wheelchair, even if he had a knife, cannot charge. It's as simple as that. It's kind of horrible for me to say but it reminds me of the black knight's scene in Monty Python. What's the guy gonna do? Bite the cop's bullet-proof vest off?!

I mean he would have to lay down the alleged knife, wheel forward, grab the knife again, all in less than a second because otherwise the police officer can just... move away. Just, step back.

No, instead he has to shoot the guy. Give me a break. This should spawn no debate at all.

Now from that situation to saying ALL the cops in the US have a problem with guns, it's an enormous, unfair, unjustifiable leap. But in THIS situation, yeah, the cop was clearly in the wrong.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:47 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 20):
Maybe so, but normal officers in the UK don't have access to guns. They have to go through years of training and certification to be able to join the firearms response squad. I'm not going to say i know for sure but i'm pretty sure every US officer carries a gun, and most have inadequate training. Hell, you can get a gun license at 18 and pick one up from the local store!

Oh I gotcha. Well without going way off topic, disarming a large portion of our cops would be disastrous. I was mainly talking about rules of engagement which are probably pretty similar. If we sent US cops to the UK I don't think much would change even if these police were still armed. Theoretically, if you have unarmed suspects in the UK causing trouble, the armed police (assuming they followed the rules) would act like your cops and not use weapons.

Point being, I don't think there is much of a difference between US and UK cops, it just so happens many UK cops aren't armed. Disarm the US cops or arm the UK cops and I think they'd act very similarly (given similar circumstances.)

Just a few days ago two unarmed female cops in Manchester, UK, have been lured into an ambush by a fake burglary call and have been killeds by pistol shots (the criminal first shot them without warning and then threw a grenade at the wo wounded women)l. If they would have been armed, they would at least have stood a chance. Without a firearm they were sitting ducks.
Rather than face an armed police unit, the culprit (a known gang member and criminal) gave himself up a few hours later at a police station (knowing that everything happening there would be recorded on CCTV)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/se...n-police-officer-killed-manchester

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imiakhtar
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:08 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
Just a few days ago two unarmed female cops in Manchester, UK, have been lured into an ambush by a fake burglary call and have been killeds by pistol shots (the criminal first shot them without warning and then threw a grenade at the wo wounded women)l. If they would have been armed, they would at least have stood a chance. Without a firearm they were sitting ducks.
Rather than face an armed police unit, the culprit (a known gang member and criminal) gave himself up a few hours later at a police station (knowing that everything happening there would be recorded on CCTV)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/se...ester

I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is. As you correctly noted, the UK cops were ambushed. The suspect had the element of surprise to his advantage. They could have gone in there armed with M16s - it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

It would also appear the UK police chiefs disagree with you. They've reitereated their stance against routine arming of police officers.
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JJJ
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:15 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
Just a few days ago two unarmed female cops in Manchester, UK, have been lured into an ambush by a fake burglary call and have been killeds by pistol shots (the criminal first shot them without warning and then threw a grenade at the wo wounded women)l. If they would have been armed, they would at least have stood a chance. Without a firearm they were sitting ducks.

They would have been sitting ducks with a gun, too. It was a carefully prepared ambush.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Can you elaborate on as to why? This seems like this is only asking for trouble. I cannot imagine how many defensiveness cops in the UK has died in the line of duty because he/she could not have the tools to do his/her job. It's astounds me on this issue.

I know that in the entire history of the NZ police force which is unarmed (baring the Armed Offenders Squads and the Special Tactics Group) only 29 officers have been killed in the line of duty; in this incident I would feel pretty confident a Kiwi cop would have been able to handle the situation far better then these two cowards. I also think this would be the perfect situation to use a police dog, dogs are very good at disarming people with knives. BTW 23 police dogs have died in the line of duty in NZ.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
If they would have been armed, they would at least have stood a chance. Without a firearm they were sitting ducks.

It was an ambush, they had no hope, hell even fully armed and protected soldiers die in ambushes, whatever makes you think having a couple of pistols would have given them any protection at all?
 
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Aesma
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:02 am

The UK is not Europe. Cops in France are armed, as are gendarmes (military police for the countryside), custom officers, some local police (that are not real cops), and even some rent a cop. Still, they very rarely draw their weapons, let alone shoot them.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
smittyone
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Guns are absolutely for killing/incapacitating...

there are countries where that is seen completely different. Any police officer in most European countries will face an investigation by the state attornes's office of he/she kills a person.

OK, when police officers have more or less carte blanche in such situations they don't care what happens with thre assailant and that's the difference. In most other western countries the life of a person is valued and there is no difference made between an officer or someone wielding a knife, a pistol or just a pen.

Police officers are exactly that, not judges who hand down an instant execution death penalty.

Your post does nothing to refute what DeltaMD90 said. We were talking about whether rubber bullets were a reasonable alternative and it seems you used it as a launch pad for some sort of anti-police rant.

Fact is that guns ARE for killing/incapacitating. That is what they are designed to do, and all that they can do...which is why their use needs to be governed by sound policy, justified by the circumstances, and issued wisely. Whether or not deadly force was justified in this case doesn't change what a gun is or what it does.

You're also making some pretty big generalizations about police accountability in the US. Again, we're talking about a workforce of nearly a million people...if they were all cowboys handing out instant death penalties without recourse like you suggest we'd be out of people over here by now.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
in this incident I would feel pretty confident a Kiwi cop would have been able to handle the situation far better then these two cowards. I also think this would be the perfect situation to use a police dog, dogs are very good at disarming people with knives.

Rob, I generally agree with your posts but I think you've departed from the airway here. You're on the other side of the planet and there hasn't even been an investigation yet. Likewise, we don't exactly have police dogs standing at parade rest outside of every location that an officer is called to respond...by the time this situation got out of hand it was far too late to call a K-9 unit. Which may very well be the officers' fault but again, that is what the investigation is for.

I agree that this situation looks terrible and probably should never have gotten as far as it did, but I'm not calling another guy - doing a difficult job - a coward until I know a hell of a lot more. And maybe not even then because I know what it is like to be under pressure and it is so damned easy to pull up a keyboard and be the smart/tough/courageous one.

********************
I think many of you guys need to back off on the constant criticism of the state of life in the US...whether its guns, medical care, our political process etc. it's getting old. Every country has problems...maybe we have more than our share. The difference seems to be in the amount of time and energy that you put into reading about and discussing ours and the level of enjoyment you seem to get out of it. I understand why you'd be interested in our international affairs, but the level of interest in our internal matters approaches voyeurism. Go outside and enjoy some fresh air...I'm sure yours is better than what we have here!

[Edited 2012-09-24 03:35:36]
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:44 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
by the time this situation got out of hand it was far too late to call a K-9 unit.

See that's a difference between policing in NZ and policing in the US, a dog car would probably have responded to an incident like this at the same time as the patrol car. When police are unarmed like ours dogs are used a lot more often, although I wonder if this will change now that police are carrying pepper spray and tasers.

Also wondering why the cop who was cornered didn't pull his baton and give the one armed man a good thump, or don't US police use them anymore?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 31):
I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is. As you correctly noted, the UK cops were ambushed. The suspect had the element of surprise to his advantage. They could have gone in there armed with M16s - it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

It would also appear the UK police chiefs disagree with you. They've reitereated their stance against routine arming of police officers.

From what I´ve read one of the police women managed to draw her Taser, but bringing a taser to a gunfight won´t give you much chance at survival. The guy knew that for a burlary he would only see unarmed police officers. Had he called e.g. for "hearing gunfire in my neighbourhood" an armed unit would have arrived and HIS chances for survival would have been much lower.
I would like to disagree. It seems that, after the shootings, British police and police union leadership still upholds the idea of unarmed police, but that those on the frontline advocate to give all police officers at least firearms training and to give them the choice of carrying a firearm while on duty. It doesn´t mean that every bobby will in future look and act like Robocop, but a discretely holstered 9mm pistol would be enough of a deterent for most armed criminals.
See http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affai...mp-bobby-shot-dead-hattersley.html for an intense discussion involving several working British police officers.
I have three persons in my closer family who are police officers: My brother´s girlfriend is a motorway police officer in Saxony, Germany, and my girlfriend´s brother and his wife are police officers in the Philippines. None of them could imagine to go on duty without being armed for selfdefence.

Additionally Britain has a massive problem with gun crime, mainly perpetrated by criminal, mafia-like gangs using illegally purchased guns (and from time to time military style weapons like grenades). From what I understand this
fact is carefully spun down by the politicians to show that British gun policy has worked.
Good, we have that development as well, where e.g. pimps used a pitbull dog as a status symbol in the 1980s, today it has to be at least a pistol, if not an AK-47.

Jan
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PanHAM
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
You're also making some pretty big generalizations about police accountability in the US.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
there are countries where that is seen completely different. Any police officer in most European countries will face an investigation by the state attornes's office of he/she kills a person.

I tried to keep my post as neutral and polite as possible. I rather did not generalize, that's why I opened the post like that, see my quote above.

Police in Germany and most other countries in Europe are trained to de-escalate a situation. A case like this, or the one recently at Tomes Square NY, could not happen here with the same result. The comparison with "carte blanmche" may be harsh, but then - why do more police officers and more alleged criminals get killed in the US than in Europe? Here, suing a fire-arm is a last resort and really allowed only in self defense.

If a SWAT team is involved, the regular cop is out of the business anyway and the leader of the SWAT team must cleraly auhorize the shoot to kill and it better be on tape.
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JJJ
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Also wondering why the cop who was cornered didn't pull his baton and give the one armed man a good thump, or don't US police use them anymore?

Unlike the whacko, the officed presumably had use of both his arms and legs. A good old punch in the face or two would have settled the issue.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:04 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
If they would have been armed, they would at least have stood a chance. Without a firearm they were sitting ducks.

It was an ambush, they had no hope, hell even fully armed and protected soldiers die in ambushes, whatever makes you think having a couple of pistols would have given them any protection at all?

It depends on the situation. The military regularly practice anti-ambush training (get behind the nearest cover, open suppressive fire into the direction the shooting comes from, try to get out of the killing zone, regroup and counterattack) but at least infantry soldiers expect that they might be ambushed in a combat zone. It also depends on the training armed police officers would get and how alert they will be for a possible ambush. I expect that after this murder there won´t be any routine calls in this neighbourhood, but there will always be an armed unit on close standby.

Jan
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JJJ
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:12 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 40):
It depends on the situation.

Come on, it was your regular neighborhood copper answering to a call from someone who had his house broken into and were going to assess the damage. There was absolutely no reason to expect an ambush.

Even if they had sent SAS in full gear they would have been killed, too. He used f*ckin' grenades to finish the wounded ladies off!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:16 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 40):
It depends on the situation. The military regularly practice anti-ambush training (get behind the nearest cover, open suppressive fire into the direction the shooting comes from, try to get out of the killing zone, regroup and counterattack) but at least infantry soldiers expect that they might be ambushed in a combat zone.

Yet even with that training thousands of soldiers have been killed or wounded in Afghanistan in ambushes, so what chance would two female bobby's have who are not trained in counter ambush tactics have, more to the point are police even trained to counter ambushes?
 
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Aesma
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:18 am

Recently two gendarmes were killed here, by a guy with a knife. It was not an ambush, they were called because the guy was noisy and violent. They were both armed, in fact the second one was killed with the gun of the first one. So, the guns really didn't help there.
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zkojq
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:32 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
Any police officer in most European countries will face an investigation by the state attornes's office of he/she kills a person.

As I understand it, here in New Zealand, an investigation is held every-time a firearm is discharged or a Taser is fired. This is beneficial as the police force have the ability to identify potential 'trigger happy' officers early (hopefully before someone gets hurt) and give them extra training if that is deemed to be required.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
I know that in the entire history of the NZ police force which is unarmed (baring the Armed Offenders Squads and the Special Tactics Group) only 29 officers have been killed in the line of duty

29 officers divided by 170 years is a little less than 0.2 deaths per year.

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 29):
A one armed, one legged man on a wheelchair, even if he had a knife, cannot charge. It's as simple as that.

Maybe he could throw it at the officer? Even so, one would have thought that the risk would be pretty low.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
I think many of you guys need to back off on the constant criticism of the state of life in the US

I would argue that:
A) Yes, the US gets a lot of criticism but that is probably due to its size/population/number of airliners.net members as compared to the rest of the world,
and
B) this is an open forum of free speech (as long as it is done in a mature way) where Americans are more than welcome to discuss/question/criticize things that happen in other parts of the world if they so desire.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 41):
He used f*ckin' grenades to finish the wounded ladies off!

I really hope the judge comes down hard on him.
First to fly the 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE (2014-10-09, NZ103)
 
smittyone
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):

See that's a difference between policing in NZ and policing in the US, a dog car would probably have responded to an incident like this at the same time as the patrol car. When police are unarmed like ours dogs are used a lot more often, although I wonder if this will change now that police are carrying pepper spray and tasers.

Maybe so...but I'll wager you $20 that if a K-9 had responded, the headline would read "Police Unleash Attack Dog on Wheelchair Bound Amputee" and we'd be having this same discussion.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):

Also wondering why the cop who was cornered didn't pull his baton and give the one armed man a good thump, or don't US police use them anymore?

A good question, and one that the investigation will probably ask. But again as with the K-9 the headline would probably be about a police officer beating hell out of a wheelchair bound amputee with a baton.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
Police in Germany and most other countries in Europe are trained to de-escalate a situation. A case like this, or the one recently at Tomes Square NY, could not happen here with the same result. The comparison with "carte blanmche" may be harsh, but then - why do more police officers and more alleged criminals get killed in the US than in Europe? Here, suing a fire-arm is a last resort and really allowed only in self defense.

Our police are also trained to de-escalate a situation, and most of the time they do. You have no idea how many potentially violent situations are diffused every day in the US.

Likewise, use of a firearm here is also a "last resort and really allowed only in self defense." You're talking like police can just 'cap' somebody no questions asked here and that is just not true.

As to why there is more killing of police and alleged criminals here, my theory is that for better or worse violence is ingrained in our society. When you look at how the continent was settled and by whom, our history of nearly constant warfare with somebody, history of poor race relations, and our music/movies/television it's not particularly hard to understand.

Of course Europeans have been continually slaughtering each other in epic fashion since the beginning of recorded history...you're just more organized about it. Europe's recent tranquility is a happy anomaly that I hope continues for you. We're taking longer to get there and maybe never will.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 44):
As I understand it, here in New Zealand, an investigation is held every-time a firearm is discharged or a Taser is fired. This is beneficial as the police force have the ability to identify potential 'trigger happy' officers early (hopefully before someone gets hurt) and give them extra training if that is deemed to be required.

Same here in the US. Our police don't just shoot or tase someone, clock out for the day and head home for dinner.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 44):
B) this is an open forum of free speech (as long as it is done in a mature way) where Americans are more than welcome to discuss/question/criticize things that happen in other parts of the world if they so desire.

Certainly, yet I find that I have little or no inclination to criticize other countries' domestic affairs on an internet forum. I have plenty of opinions, but what do I know about being a Frenchman, German, or Kiwi? None of my damned business really.

[Edited 2012-09-24 05:36:34]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:35 pm

As for the current case, it is impossible for a wheelchairbound person with only one arm to carry out a knife attack. He simply cannot move the wheelchair and stab with a knife. And even then it is very easy to get behind the wheelchair (where the person in it can´t reach) and to move the wheelchair away.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
smittyone
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:48 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
As for the current case, it is impossible for a wheelchairbound person with only one arm to carry out a knife attack. He simply cannot move the wheelchair and stab with a knife. And even then it is very easy to get behind the wheelchair (where the person in it can´t reach) and to move the wheelchair away.

Jan

Likewise, it's impossible to stall and crash an Airbus A330 unless you hold the stick back the whole way down...yet a fully qualified Air France pilot recently did exactly that. Which just means that humans are not perfect and situations are substantially clearer in hindsight.

My guess is that in this case the officers will be found to have handled the situation poorly, and I personally suspect that the previous incident where the shooter's girlfriend and neighbor got stabbed had a lot to do with his decision to shoot.

[Edited 2012-09-24 05:52:21]
 
fr8mech
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
..and what about the "luck" of the bystanders? Police simply cannot use fire arms in situations where by-standers can get hurt.

I disagree. It depends on the situation. I imagine just about any decent sized police department has an "active shooter" protocol. These protocols describe how to engage an assailant who is actively engaged in shooting people. By definition, the police would be engaging an attacker who is in the midst of victims and soon-to-be victims. Sometimes the police have no choice but to shoot with civilians in he area. It should be avoided, but can't always be avoided.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
It was an ambush, they had no hope, hell even fully armed and protected soldiers die in ambushes, whatever makes you think having a couple of pistols would have given them any protection at all?

But, a sidearm is better than no gun when you're attacked...no?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Police Shoot And Kill Wheelchair Bound Amputee

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:40 pm

Aha, so there was someone shooting at people and all the people that got hit were hit by police bullets.

Understood. good work.

Did these stupid people who were carelessly standing in the way of the police bullets have to pay their own medical bills?
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