TheCommodore
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US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:18 am

Interesting times at the UN in NY, with so many differing opinions flying around.

But I found this article refreshing, from a new kid on the block at least.

Egypt's new president, Mr Mursi warns the US, that continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East and regions.

I think Mr Mursi makes some good points, I wonder if anyone will listen to him, and listen and follow through with "changed" policy's for the ME.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-is-fa...ans-says-egypt-20120924-26hh2.html
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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pu
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:21 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Mr Mursi makes some good points, I wonder if anyone will listen to him

Mursi is US educated and an exceptionally fortunate choice from a western (American) perspective. If America wants to live peacefully for a few years, there is no one in the Middle East more balanced. Hoping the USA listens.

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
that continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East

Well known knowledge to the rest of the world of course but the balance of those in North America still believe what Dick Cheney told them post 9/11...that the USA was just sitting quietly minding its own business not harming a Muslim anywhere when those 'jealous of American freedom' struck without any provocation whatsoever.

How Romney v. Obama plays out will play a big role in shaping Middle East for decades with some new governments only recently in, and some more changes in store shortly.

Pu
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:33 am

Pu, your clear disdain for America and Israel notwithstanding, claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right.

There's blood and blame to go around for many.

-Dave
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:48 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
continued favoring of Israel, over others, namely the Palestinians, has fostered deep anti-US sentiment within the Middle East and regions.

Favouring=money? They want more aid? They already get sh*tloads, even when you reasonably exclude Iraq and Afghanistan.
Total 2010 US aid to:
Israel $2.5b
Palestine $700m
Egypt $1.7b
Afghanistan $11.5b
Pakistan $2.5
Jordan $800m
Sudan $1b
Iraq $2.1b

The numbers are probably even more in favour of the 'others' today.

Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether they favour Palestine or Israel, or even merely appear to favour one, so they might as well favour the one who has wealthy donors stateside.

The German Embassy in Sudan was destroyed, is there deep anti-German sentiment through the Middle East too?

I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):

claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right

There is nothing to agree or disagree with in what I said, which was merely endorsing what Mursi said. The facts:

1. The US has subsidised Israel with billions annually since the Camp David accords
2. The Israelis kill Palestinians almost every week with American weapons and military aid
3. The rest of the Muslim world is angry about it and America's bankrolling of the Israeli "treatment" of the Palestinians was a main motivation for 9/11 according to the bi-partisan 9/11 commission

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):

There's blood and blame to go around for many

Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:09:18]
 
BMI727
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:00 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
I thoroughly wish the US would withdraw all foreign aid, unfortunately money talks to governments but not ordinary people who don't see a cent of it.

That would be dumb. First of all, that's quality money flowing to American businesses. More importantly (for other people, not necessarily for me) is that the aid equals leverage. What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:03 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):

Deep anti-US sentiment would exist no matter whether

Negative.

Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.

No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims - and especially US policy in the Middle East that generates anti-US feeling.

Listen to Mursi. He likes America and is telling the balanced truth.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:08:00]

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:08:47]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:26 am

Pu, you have an interesting approach: You endorse a point of view but say there's nothing to agree or disagree with.

Wow.

-Dave
-Dave
 
TheCommodore
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
More importantly (for other people, not necessarily for me) is that the aid equals leverage. What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.

Then why haven't, they, (the US) threatened Israel with this "leverage" then ?

Israel thumbed its nose at the U.S. regarding troop withdrawal from Gaza and the West bank, but that matters little it seems ?

But they (The US) do this to Palestine, go figure ??????

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-to-palestinian-authority-1.387480

And they talk about double standards. Wow !

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Listen to Mursi. He likes America and is telling the balanced truth.

As I said, he's the new kid on the block. Lets give him a chance and listen to his opinion and see what he can muster up.
He might just have something !

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:47:40]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.

That's because they had the Europeans to hate back then for feebly attempting to divide up the colonies to minimise war. Now they've got someone better to hate.

Last time I checked no Muslim countries were in perpetual war with someone who sought their complete annihilation.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.

Pakistan sure is behaving nicely at the moment what with the threats to having aid cut. The Senate approved a whopping $33m, a 0.1% cut in aid, for the Pakistanis jailing a man directly involved in trying to get bin Laden. Pakistan's aid is continually getting slashed yet nothing changes.
Billions to Afghanistan haven't stopped the Taliban, the opium nor have they stopped US and coalition troops being murdered by Afghan soldiers while Karzai goes and panders to the Taliban.
Libyan aid didn't convince the government to protect your ambassador either.

Foreign aid perhaps used to work but now the US is just allowing themselves to be extorted by bands of thugs.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
quality money flowing to American businesses

That is completely nonsensical, that argument could easily be applied to allowing the Taliban to purchase weapons legally from US manufacturers because it is good money flowing to US businesses. This will likely just be Charlie Wilson 2.0.
 
BMI727
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:33 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Then why hasn't, they, (the US) threatened Israel with this "leverage" then ?

I think that they should. If they called our bluff it would put us in an awkward position. Arms races are awfully good business, it would be a shame to lose sales due to taking a moral stand on an issue, but sometimes that's what you have to do.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:36 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
You endorse a point of view but say there's nothing to agree or disagree with.

Among native speakers of English its obvious I endorsed only the facts Mursi conveyed. Perhaps you are unable to accept the facts and believe they are merely opinions? Can you kindly point out what I endorsed in Mursi's comments that is a point of view and not a fact?

Pu
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 9):
That's because they had the Europeans to hate back then for feebly attempting to divide up the colonies to minimise war. Now they've got someone better to hate.

In other words, they hated the Europeans for carving up the Middle East in disastrous map lines that are still trouble today .....and for exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.
.
Then when Europe lost its inclination to intervene so much overseas and America stepped in, they started hating America for continuing to enforce the mess Europe created.

Pu
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:05 am

Pu, first of all I disagree with the framing of your original assertions.

Second, it's quite possible that someone might disagree with your assessment of Mursi as being a fortunate choice. that remains to be scene.

Third, Your facts are clearly one-sided and absent of context.

Fourth, stating that the US financial support of Israel has caused a Muslim anger towards the US somehow misses the many billions given to many of those nations as well.

Ultimately, what I find is that you have a very strong point of view about the US and it's support of Israel, which is fine. How you frame your argument as if 5.7 billion people get it and 300 million don't is where I diverge. That sort of rhetoric is borderline cowardly.

If we can get to the nuts and bolts of it, what do you propose for the middle east that you think will be the best answer. Note: Total annihilation of the Israeli people doesn't count. That was tried before and didn't really seem to help the world cause.

-Davr
-Dave
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:14 am

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
carving up the Middle East in disastrous map lines that are still trouble today

Please enlighten us as to how the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth could have been carved up such that all the peoples of Arabia could happily sit around the Kaaba singing kumbaya... All with the line of a Westminster pencil.

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land

Jews have been in Israel since the beginning of recorded time, modern day Jews have been settling since the 19th century after Britain and the US decided that a people forcibly displaced from their homeland; the most persecuted people in history to avoid decimation, needed their own state.

By your own logic it would be perfectly reasonable for me to despise Iranian people and burn down the Iranian embassy. Iran is sending their unwanted refugees to Australian land without the permission of Australians living here.
Europe can also reasonably hate all of the Arab world for exporting their unwanted Muslims to Europe.
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:38 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):

As for Mursi being a fortunate choice or not, some were expecting a new Yasser Arafat to emerge as the new leader in Egypt from the Muslim Brotherhood.
.
....instead through some cosmic piece of good luck, Egypt is now headed by an ex-California professor who is ok with Israel and wants friendship with America while still re-asserting the popular will of the Egyptian people onto Egyptian policy for a change. America could hardly do better than the leader of Egypt whose kids are American!

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
How you frame your argument as if 5.7 billion people get it and 300 million don't is where I diverge. That sort of rhetoric is borderline cowardly

Among the 300 million who know the relevant facts I don't think I know of many who remain on the "don't get it" side. There really is no big controversy about the facts of US policy in the Middle East and why many Muslims hate it.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
what do you propose for the middle east that you think will be the best answer

Softball question!
.
Use American power to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict once and for all. This is nowhere near as bad a conflict as the ones America has won before, it can be done.
.
The two state solution has been around for, oh, 70 years now...(Palestinians initially rejected it, now Israelis reject it). Israel has no choice but to do exactly as America demands, and if either they or the Palestinians won't come to terms or violate the negotiated settlement - let the chips fall where they may without US intervention, and yes America can still defend Israel from Iran etc as long as the Palestinians are given a country.
.
Easy? No. But cheaper than the trillions lost in US wars and unending security fears.

Pu
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:01 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
how the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth

Sure, its the most hateful, violent, war prone region on earth...if you don't count Europe, America or Asia.

Which one of Europe's wars would you like to discuss first that by itself killed more than the sum total of all Muslim-Arab wars and terrorism combined since time began?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
could have been carved up

uhmmm, hello? Anybody home? Why were the Europeans carving up the place? Maybe the Europeans should have, I don't know, let the people who live there draw their own map lines and choose their own government?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):

Jews have been in Israel since the beginning of recorded time

You do agree of course that the European-descended occupants of Australia should surrender all claims to their land in favour of the aborigines, since the aborigines were in Australia since the beginning of recorded time?
.
...and you are now officially calling on America to give up North America and return it to the Indians, right? They were there since te beginning of recorded time...
.
Look, I am happy about Israel and want them to succeed. Israel's not going anyplace.. but the facts of its creation at the end of WW2 are nevertheless a main cause of trouble in the Midle East.

Pu
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:32 am

1. Again, it remains to be seen how things go in Egypt. I really don't believe that his background is cause for too much celebration though there is certainly room for hope.

2. I have no problem with a two-state solution. The reality that it is 2012 and it still hasn't happened speaks volumes - and not just about how horrible America has been. From Day 1 - literally - Israel had to learn to defend itself. At times they went too far and they likely made a bad situation worse. However, they have also tried to live peacefully but there have been many interested in seeing peace fail. With Iran leading the anti-Israel charge, developing nukes, and calling for the end of Israel, it's challenging at best to see how this turns out well. After all, apparently the whole world sees Israel and the US for what they are, right?

-Dave
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+



But you conveniently leave out the corollary...

How many Muslims killed by Muslims?

The radical nutjobs refer to Gulf War 1(Desert Storm) as an atrocity committed by the USA against Islam,yet it was a multi national(and multi cultural) response to unprovoked agression against an Islamic nation.. by another "Islamic" state.

Somehow that is of no consequence..the "evil" USA and alliies are at fault.

My opinion, PU, grow up and take a real look at the world!!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):
Pu, your clear disdain for America and Israel notwithstanding, claiming that "the rest of the world" agrees with you doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make you right.

Not to pick knits, but if you read Pu's postings since the outset of his membership you'll find that he is quite balanced and has had many favorable things to say RE the United States. Calling a spade a spade does not mean he has disdain for the United States.

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.
Quoting pu (Reply 6):
No one hates America for what it is or how Americans live, it is entirely how America treats Muslims - and especially US policy in the Middle East that generates anti-US feeling.

I agree, to a point. And that is this: "Palestine" wasn't a free state for hundreds of years prior to the formation of Israel. I'm sure that wasn't pleasant for the people living there but life isn't always rosy, and they aren't the first group of people to be oppressed, but they were offered a solution that few were given. During the decolonizing period the Palestinians were outright given the option for their own country which would have been much larger than the areas now designated for Palestinians, and rejected the option, resorting to war when few were in the mood. Bad PR, and much like the Israelis played puppet for the United States, many of the Arab states played puppet for the Soviet Union. The difference today is one of the puppeteers is no more, replaced with a looser, less organized group of religious fanatics. In addition, judging by the way Muslims treat each other in accordance with the Koran I'm astonished that America is seen as the absolute evil, but I'm not likely to win that argument in a room full of uneducated Muslims who simply believe what their mullah told them, just as I'm unlikely to win an argument in a room full of barely-high school educated Baptists.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
Total 2010 US aid to:
Israel $2.5b
Palestine $700m
Egypt $1.7b
Afghanistan $11.5b
Pakistan $2.5
Jordan $800m
Sudan $1b
Iraq $2.1b

Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting violence.
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting violence.

The tax dollars that you mention does not only come in the form of cash. Coming from Jordan I can tell you a lot of it is given as weapons, scholarships, medical aid, bribes and what not, and I'm sure the same goes for other countries receiving aid from the US.
Money isn't the reason why there is general anti- US sentiment in the area, it's the constant political backing on an international level, and issuing statements like "Israel has the right to defend itself", and at the same time condemning Palestinian actions. This is what makes the blood boil.
mobs jakis
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
it is entirely how America treats Muslims

I am shocked this one slipped through.......I'm sorry, how do we treat Muslims? With religious freedom maybe?

Sorry buddy, but let me know the next time I can wear a Yarmulke in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan without fearing for my life.
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
and for exporting Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.

Seems like a bit of revisionist history here. I don't think Europe tried to 'export' Jews to the Holy Land post WW2. I think the Nazi's and Soviet Union murdered millions of Jews, many Europeans stood idly by (some courageous ones did not) and then after WW2 many Jews left Europe for a Jewish homeland in the Holy Land. What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 22):
What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?

No of course not, but why did the Palestinians did have to pay for others crimes?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
mham001
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:29 pm

This is the same Morsi, who admitted "taking their time" to respond to the recent embassy attack in Cairo. The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians. This is also the same Morsi who is this week asking for more money from US.

He can go to h*ll.
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
I think Mr Mursi makes some good points, I wonder if anyone will listen to him, and listen and follow through with "changed" policy's for the ME.

Mr Mursi makes no good points..

Quoting pu (Reply 1):
Well known knowledge to the rest of the world of course but the balance of those in North America still believe what Dick Cheney told them post 9/11...that the USA was just sitting quietly minding its own business not harming a Muslim anywhere when those 'jealous of American freedom' struck without any provocation whatsoever.

You could always move to Egypt. I am sure you will love your freedoms there since it seems that the US is so awful.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
1. The US has subsidised Israel with billions annually since the Camp David accords

And has given many more billions to the surrounding Muslim countries since then.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
2. The Israelis kill Palestinians almost every week with American weapons and military aid

And the Palestinians try to kill Israelis every week with weapons sent from Muslim countries. DO you have a point to make?

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
3. The rest of the Muslim world is angry about it and America's bankrolling of the Israeli "treatment" of the

Once again we have been giving many more weapons and much more cash to the Muslim world vs Israel.

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
Palestinians was a main motivation for 9/11 according to the bi-partisan 9/11 commission

And that commission was a bunch of idiot's who white washed history for the Clinton and Bush clan's

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
Previous to the masive Israeli subsidy started in the late 1970s, America was popular in the Arab-Muslim world.

Why do you continue to ignore the massive Muslim subsidies going on around Israel. You do know that Camp David was a bribe to both sides?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Israel thumbed its nose at the U.S. regarding troop withdrawal from Gaza and the West bank, but that matters little it seems ?

And they should continue to thumb there nose and do what is best for them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
What Uncle Sam giveth, Uncle Sam can taketh away. If anybody steps out of line, we can just threaten to cut them off and they'll have to think twice.

Just not true. Would Pakistan stop what they are dong or know would Egypt change anything if we pulled out our money. No they would just use it as another excuse to rile up their citizens against us. Pull all foreign subsidies now....

Quoting pu (Reply 11):
Perhaps you are unable to accept the facts and believe they are merely opinions?

They are your opinions.

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
Europe's unwanted post World War II refugees into Arab land without the permission of the Arabs already living there.

Not really. Much of the land had already been bought up before the war. You seem to believe today that the illegal aliens flooding our country do not need permission from us so why this double standard?

Quoting pu (Reply 15):
The two state solution has been around for, oh, 70 years now...(Palestinians initially rejected it

No the Arab league pretty much made the decision for them. The Arab league made this mess and then did nothing to help the refugees they created after the Nakhba.

Quoting pu (Reply 16):
but the facts of its creation at the end of WW2 are nevertheless a main cause of trouble in the Midle East.

No Muslim hate of anything not muslim being among them created this.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 18):
Quoting pu (Reply 4):Americans killed by Muslims ~ 3000
Muslims killed by America and its Israeli proxy ~ 200 000+


But you conveniently leave out the corollary...

How many Muslims killed by Muslims?

Yes he did.....

Quoting okees (Reply 20):
it's the constant political backing on an international level, and issuing statements like "Israel has the right to defend itself", and at the same time condemning Palestinian actions. This is what makes the blood boil.

Because the Palestinians are terrorist attacking a sovereign nation. What makes the blood boil is that the Arab's kept losing to the Jews in combat.

I guess you had no problem with Jordan controlling the West Bank until Israel took control of it. It was awfully nice of Jordan to put those "refugees" into nice camps for the next few generations and using them as a tool against Israel instead of absorbing them into your Country of Jordan. After all the "Palestinian's had been part of the same country previously as the Jordanian's

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 22):
and then after WW2 many Jews left Europe for a Jewish homeland in the Holy Land. What else would you expect those Jews to do? Stick around and wait for the next genocide?

And many European Jews had already immigrated there before the war buying up legally huge swath's of land.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 23):
No of course not, but why did the Palestinians did have to pay for others crimes?

The Palestinian's paid for the crimes of the Arab league. Blame them...
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 17):

With Iran leading the anti-Israel charge, developing nukes, and calling for the end of Israel, it's challenging at best to see how this turns out we

Agreed.
But engage in some foresight: let it play out further if things stay on the same course. Iran gets a nuke sometime between next week and 2015. Pakistan is already a nuclear power. The next nuclear power in the area is then Turkey, Egypt, Iraq or who knows....meanwhile any of these countries are likely to covertly give a nuke to a 3rd party terrorist...and Israel is ruined in an attack by a stateless terrorist.
.
The only viable option for Israel's survival is to ensure by any means possible that both the Palestinians are placated and its neighbours are ok with its existence. The current endless war only ends in the end of Israel, and time, the size of the Muslim world and the spread of technology mean the clock is ticking for Israel, not the Muslims.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 17):

apparently the whole world sees Israel and the US for what they are, right?


The world sees Israel as the place where Europe dumped its unwanted post WW2 refugees without asking the people who were already living there if they wanted these ex-Europeans.
.
The world sees the US as bankrolling Israel because of an odd and recent convergence of 3 forces:
-----1 AIPAC and the influence of ultra-nationalist Israeli interests on the US congress
-----2 Pentecostal-Evangelical US Christians who think Israel is an instrumentality of God
-----3 US foreign policy hawks (aka 'neocons') who always want war in the Middle East

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):

Looks to me as if more Muslims get our tax dollars than the Israelis. What do they do with it? The exact same thing they claim to hate America for doing--supporting

Yes, right now we are caught in a neverending chicken and egg cycle of which came first, American-Israeli harm to Muslims or Palestinian-Muslim harm to Israel? ...and we haven't even mentioned how America's love affair with oil and global policy in support of its foreign oil dependence serves to fund the very people attacking America.


Pu
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:05 pm

The lingering effects of Karl Rove & Dick Cheney's version of history where the Muslim reaction to America's provocative policies in the Middle East is given all the attention instead of any thought given to how America provoked anti-US sentiment:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
This is the same Morsi, who admitted "taking their time" to respond to the recent embassy attack in Cairo. The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians. This is also the same Morsi who is this week asking for more money from US.

He can go to h*ll.

America bankrolled a brutal and repressive dictator in Egypt for 30 years. Once the Egyptians were able to elect their own chosen leader free of US influence, do you expect them to be thankful and respectful of a country that kept them repressed for 3 decades? Vandalising an embassy is nothing, stop letting your very bruised ego decide whats best for Arabs/Muslims living in the Middle East and look a bit farther back in history than a 9/11.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 21):

Quoting pu (Reply 6):
it is entirely how America treats Muslims

I am shocked this one slipped through.......I'm sorry, how do we treat Muslims? With religious freedom maybe?

Sorry buddy, but let me know the next time I can wear a Yarmulke in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan without fearing for my life.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):


Fearing for your life is a fact of life on the streets of New York, not in Saudi Arabia or most Arab-Muslim countries.

Fix America before you fix the Muslims living in the Middle East. 170 000 Americans killed by other Americans on the streets of America since 9/11 and another 15000 will be lost this year. The Muslim "threat" to America is trivial compared to America's real problems at home.

Pu
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 27):
America bankrolled a brutal and repressive dictator in Egypt for 30 years. Once the Egyptians were able to elect their own chosen leader free of US influence, do you expect them to be thankful and respectful of a country that kept them repressed for 3 decades? Vandalising an embassy is nothing, stop letting your very bruised ego decide whats best for Arabs/Muslims living in the Middle East and look a bit farther back in history than a 9/11.

Great most. Way too many Americans seem to be incapable of going beyond 9/11 in history, if they did they could maybe see actual (and understandable) motives behind all this dislike towards western world and especially United States, instead of blaming just Islam for everything.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
The world sees Israel as the place where Europe dumped its unwanted post WW2 refugees without asking the people who were already living there if they wanted these ex-Europeans.

Again, as a European yourself, I can't understand how you can characterize immigration to Israel in such terms. Nazi Germany and Soviet pogroms murdered millions of Jewish men, women and children. Some countries like Great Britain fought to end this atrocity while others like Sweden maintained neutrality in the face of evil. Consequently, the Jewish who survived no longer felt welcomed in countries that tried to annihilate people of their faith. They came together from all over the world and with their money, political influence, arms and blood formed the nation of Israel in their ancestral homeland so that the Holocaust could never be repeated. I wouldn't characterize what I wrote as 'Europe dumping its unwanted post WW2 refugees', rather a persecuted people took matters into their own hands so that anti-Semites cannot wipe them off the face of the Earth.

[Edited 2012-09-25 13:18:09]
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:19 pm

Well this American agrees with much of what Mr Mursi says, and I'm far from a European "socialist" __enter name here__. It's no secret that the US is especially disliked by many Muslim nations, and the reasons I hear have to do with our intervention and our blind support for Israel against the Palestinians, not the reasons people like good ol Rick Santorum gives.

It is quite possible to be both for Israel's safety and criticize some of their actions and the way they treat the Palestinians.

That's the mistake many of you make, you think it's all black and white. Pu isn't some terrible anti-American who hates Israel. He hasn't said it yet but I'm 99.99% sure he is completely against Palestinian suicide bombers. But just because one side is "worse" doesn't absolve the other side from blame.

Perhaps you agree with all that Israel does, but there is an obvious resentment from the Palestinians. Talking to a few (ORDINARY CITIZENS) their gripe is the way the Israeli government treats them. They aren't hellbent on killing all the Jews or anything.

It's gonna take a lot from both sides. If you are "pro-Israel" I encourage you to be pro-Palestinian too. Most are good people who are frustrated and want to be treated fairly. I highly doubt anyone here can claim that Israel's policies are perfect, so acknowledging that, are we to just to say "eh, Palestinians are worse" or should we look at ways to address their concerns while keeping Israel's security concerns in mind?

I'll tell you one thing, not listening to the Palestinians and blindly supporting Israel WILL NOT WORK. That is just common sense.

Lastly, again, don't think Pu is being anti-American, he brings up many points that I largely agree with, and I absolutely love this country and am currently serving in its military. Maybe we think we know more than Europeans but we should at least listen to what they say.
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 27):
Fearing for your life is a fact of life on the streets of New York, not in Saudi Arabia or most Arab-Muslim countries.

Have you been to any of these places? Your statement could not be further from the truth. Go take a walk down the streets in New York today and you'd be fine. How about Damascus, Benghazi, Baghdad, Kabul, Cairo, Tripoli, Sanaa, Karachi, Islamabad? Be intellectually honest and answer that question. I'm sure Riyadh would be fine because Saudi Arabia is a police state and I'm sure very safe. Quite similar to how Tunisia and Egypt used to be in that respect.
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Maybe we think we know more than Europeans but we should at least listen to what they say.

We should at least learn from Europe's mistakes.
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 32):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Maybe we think we know more than Europeans but we should at least listen to what they say.

We should at least learn from Europe's mistakes.

True but not every situation can be compared to Hitler...
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 29):
Again, as a European yourself, I can't understand how you can characterize immigration to Israel in such terms

I'm saying this is how the world views Israel: created as a place to send the refugees from WW2 that Europe and America didn't want, without asking the permission of the people already living there.

If I understand you correctly your beef with me is that you say the [future] Israelis weren't sent there by Europe but chose this spot on their own. Maybe this is a point for Israeli pride, but it doesn't play into world opinion on Israel.

In any event, whether the refugees were sent or instead chose to go, the Palestinians end up paying the price for Europe's war and are forcibly required to give up their land for new Jewish arrivals that the Western Allies refused to embrace themselves.

The Allies simply gave their refugee problem to the Palestinians. Mursi is saying America needs to wake upand see how this 70 year history creates embassy problems, terrorism and ongoing Muslim resentment. He isn't saying kill all the Jews and America too.

Pu
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 34):
The Allies simply gave their refugee problem to the Palestinians. Mursi is saying America needs to wake upand see how this 70 year history creates embassy problems, terrorism and ongoing Muslim resentment. He isn't saying kill all the Jews and America too.

"Muslim Resentment" as you put it is a religious issue, and is very indicative of the real problem in the region. there are people there that want true freedom, however there are others that are very subscribed to a holier than thou religious creed that is prevelant in the region. All of the countries in the middle east have been formed through power struggles ,war, exhile and other attrocities. The leasers in the regions need to stop blaming events 70 years in the past for their failures to find solutions for the future.
The embassy issues, terrorism and other events are being used for religious and political expediancy to ofset the issues inherent within the countries and societies they are a part of. There are still very real power struggles as part of the recent wave of changes, and it will be interesting to see whether fanatacism, facism, theocracy''s or diplomacy and democracy win out.
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 16):
...and you are now officially calling on America to give up North America and return it to the Indians, right? They were there since te beginning of recorded time...

I wonder how Palestinians feel about blackjack...

Quoting stealthz (Reply 18):
The radical nutjobs refer to Gulf War 1(Desert Storm) as an atrocity committed by the USA against Islam,

That is the official reason Bin Laden gave for attacking America.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians.

Why would you not court the Chinese and Russians?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Would Pakistan stop what they are dong or know would Egypt change anything if we pulled out our money. No they would just use it as another excuse to rile up their citizens against us.

Maybe. Or maybe not.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Pull all foreign subsidies now....

Nah. It's much more profitable and better for the economy to fuel an arms race.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 29):
Consequently, the Jewish who survived no longer felt welcomed in countries that tried to annihilate people of their faith.

To be fair, the Jews weren't exactly welcomed with open arms before.
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TheCommodore
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Mr Mursi makes no good points..

Only because, the points he makes, don't agree with yours. Funny that ?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
He can go to h*ll.

So what, he can go to hell, just like the previous US supported tyrant !

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And has given many more billions to the surrounding Muslim countries since then.

Not nearly as enough as Israel has received over the decades and decades.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And the Palestinians try to kill Israelis every week with weapons sent from Muslim countries. DO you have a point to make?

Like the weapons the IDF use against the Palestinians..... Mostly I'd guess form the US of course.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
And that commission was a bunch of idiot's who white washed history for the Clinton and Bush clan's

How convenient of you to take that point of view.... funny you'd think like that. Actually no it isn't !

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Just not true. Would Pakistan stop what they are dong or know would Egypt change anything if we pulled out our money. No they would just use it as another excuse to rile up their citizens against us. Pull all foreign subsidies now....

Way to late to back track now... the damage has already been done

Quoting windy95 (Reply 25):
Because the Palestinians are terrorist attacking a sovereign nation.

Many think otherwise

And many, look at Israel, slowly slowly picking away at bits of Palestinian land, and building more and yet more settlements, despite being told NOT to...Way to go Israel, keep it up.

Quoting pu (Reply 27):
Fix America before you fix the Muslims living in the Middle East. 170 000 Americans killed by other Americans on the streets of America since 9/11 and another 15000 will be lost this year. The Muslim "threat" to America is trivial compared to America's real problems at home.

        

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
It is quite possible to be both for Israel's safety and criticize some of their actions and the way they treat the Palestinians.

Seems as though this depends on what day of the week it is

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
But just because one side is "worse" doesn't absolve the other side from blame.

Absolutely spot on with that summation

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
There are still very real power struggles as part of the recent wave of changes, and it will be interesting to see whether fanatacism, facism, theocracy''s or diplomacy and democracy win out.

And it will be just as interesting to see who America, put its money on ?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
To be fair, the Jews weren't exactly welcomed with open arms before.

No, well. lets not let facts get in the way.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 34):
I'm saying this is how the world views Israel: created as a place to send the refugees from WW2 that Europe and America didn't want, without asking the permission of the people already living there.

I'm not supporting many of the subsequent policies of the Israeli government. However, some facts might need to be pointed out to some of "the world."
- 55-60% of immigrants to the newly formed state of Israel between 1948 and 1951 were Sephardic and Mizrahim Jews (ie not those persecuted by Nazi Germany). Many of these individuals were expelled and/or had their citizenship revoked from nearby Muslim countries simply for being Jewish (not Israeli) after the 1948 war. They outnumbered the Ashkenazi (ie displaced German and Eastern European, the majority of Nazi victims) Jews almost 6:1 from the 1950's-1970's. The genetic lines have mixed considerably since.
- An estimated 1,000,000 Jews were expelled or left various communities in the Muslim world between the end of World War 2 and the Yom Kippur War in 1973. Today they and their descendents make up over 60% of Israel's population. That is clearly antisemitism as most of those people had roots dating back at least a century in every place but Israel. People don't permanently migrate en masse like that simply because of a religious calling. In the hundreds? Sure. In the hundreds of thousands? No. They did so because Anti-Israel became Anti-Jew. Most of whom probably would have never left otherwise.

[Edited 2012-09-25 16:09:18]

[Edited 2012-09-25 16:12:55]
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 38):

Most have pretty much decided what side they are on in the Middle East Conflict for emotionally appealing reasons that are disconnected from the truth. I am certain if the founders of Israel in the 1940s could fave forseen the decades of high and low intensity war that were to follow, they would have gone quite a bit further to ensure the Palestinians were pacified by the new political realities in the region.

...In any event, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is the lightning rod that focuses Arab-Muslim frustrations on something they all agree upon. Its as motivating in the Muslim world as Pearl Harbor was to America.

Mursi is delicately balancing the situation in Egypt and is very much needing the help of a superpower that isn't going to shoot first and ask questions never.


Pu
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:08 am

Quoting pu (Reply 39):
I am certain if the founders of Israel in the 1940s could fave forseen the decades of high and low intensity war that were to follow, they would have gone quite a bit further to ensure the Palestinians were pacified by the new political realities in the region.

...In any event, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is the lightning rod that focuses Arab-Muslim frustrations on something they all agree upon. Its as motivating in the Muslim world as Pearl Harbor was to America.

I concur.

Quoting pu (Reply 39):
Mursi is delicately balancing the situation in Egypt and is very much needing the help of a superpower that isn't going to shoot first and ask questions never.

Hopefully he does it well.
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
It's gonna take a lot from both sides. If you are "pro-Israel" I encourage you to be pro-Palestinian too.

The above could be one of the most useful posts on here in quite a long time.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
The only viable option for Israel's survival is to ensure by any means possible that both the Palestinians are placated and its neighbours are ok with its existence.

Which might very well mean:

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
The current endless war only ends in the end of Israel,

I mean, I'd love to think that there will be a peaceful outcome. I just don't hold out much hope.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Lastly, again, don't think Pu is being anti-American, he brings up many points that I largely agree with, and I absolutely love this country and am currently serving in its military. Maybe we think we know more than Europeans but we should at least listen to what they say.

I don't disagree out of hand. I struggle with the one-sidedness of it all. Occasionally there's a glimmer of '...but the Palestinians need to..." type of thing, but otherwise it just seems to point to all the reasons that the US and Israel are hated. As if nothing else has ever happened, as if Israel hasn't ever tried.

Balancing it out a little would go a long ways towards inviting that very thing being expected from us here.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I wonder how Palestinians feel about blackjack...

Oye...  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):The same Morsi who is openly courting the Chinese and Russians.
Why would you not court the Chinese and Russians?

True. No different than airlines shopping various manufacturers. Why put all your eggs in one basket, and why not create a little competition. Very BMI727-like. I'd do the same I think.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
Not nearly as enough as Israel has received over the decades and decades.

Can you quantify that? That's a legitimate question as apparently you know and I don't really have any idea.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
Quoting pu (Reply 27):Fix America before you fix the Muslims living in the Middle East. 170 000 Americans killed by other Americans on the streets of America since 9/11 and another 15000 will be lost this year. The Muslim "threat" to America is trivial compared to America's real problems at home.

I'm 100% against legalizing drugs, but I'm getting to the point that I think we may need to do it. Much of the above is due to drugs and gangs. I suppose if we make it ok for Susie to buy cocaine at Walgreens we might be able to get those numbers down - and help the deficit at the same time.

Maybe then we'll be allowed to have an opinion about the rest of the world the way the love to have an opinion about us.

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PlanesNTrains
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:45 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
Not to pick knits, but if you read Pu's postings since the outset of his membership you'll find that he is quite balanced and has had many favorable things to say RE the United States.

That may very well be true. Unfortunately i can't go through and reread everything previously posted. All I can do is go through his laundry list of items explaining why the US and Israel are so hated, with little mention of virtually any other part of history.

But I respect that others see it differently.

-Dave
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 42):
Can you quantify that? That's a legitimate question as apparently you know and I don't really have any idea.

It actually came up in another thread, but of course I can't find it now, and I can't remember off hand........

But a quick look and I came up with these numbers.... Mind boggling don't you think ?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/11/...-aid-to-israel-feeding-the-cuckoo/

How many other country's have received so much US assistance that you heard of ?
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:43 am

Personally I don't think aid to Israel is a problem in itself, and I doubt the Palestinians care much about that. Living in open prisons, without the right to have a seaport, with colonies popping up everywhere, a wall in the middle of their fields, restricted access to water and electricity, citizens being treated as second class, etc., this they care about.

I just read the other day that the French embassy built a water reservoir for farmers in the West Bank, since they couldn't get a building permit (Israel blocking them on purpose). Well, the embassy couldn't get the permit either, but built it anyway. It was bulldozed. Now the embassy will build 20 reservoirs.

[Edited 2012-09-26 02:44:27]
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casinterest
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
And it will be just as interesting to see who America, put its money on ?

America puts it's money on the Government. If the people should want to change the Government , they can. That is what happened in Egypt, and the US is attempting to work with them. You sit there and pretend it is a roulette game,, but it isn't. The US hold vast interest in many countries as trading, diplomatic, educational, and defense partners.
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 42):

I struggle with the one-sidedness of it all

I think thats based in part on an understandable pride in being an American. However, sometimes things ARE mostly one-sided. There is a widespread feeling among the nonAmerican world that the average American has no clue as to the lengthy laundry list of provocations the USA has flung unto the Arab-Muslim world for ~50 years. Then they get defensive or eyes glaze over when its pointed out that the Iranians in '79 or the Egyptians in 2012 are reacting to American provocations, not just picking on America because it is the "worlds policeman" or whatever self-congratulatory epithets are offered to explain why the Muslims are so angry.

The reaction among many Americans in the wake of 9/11 was like that of a bitchy (and not especially attractive) schoolgirl who thinks everyone hates her because they are jeoulous of how pretty she is - when in actuality everyone hates her because she is a bitch. The same with the Cairo embassy thing - Hello, Mr and Mrs America, your tax dollars kept in power a repressive Egyptian dictator for 30 years, and the Egyptians are still angry about it.

I can't see any policy of an Arab/Muslim nation that has harmed America, yet American policy has harmed and killed Muslims for decades. Or perhaps you have some examples of an Arab-Muslim nation intervening in North America????


Pu
 
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 47):

Exactly how I see it, great post.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
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casinterest
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RE: US Is Failing Palestinians, Says Egypt

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 47):
The reaction among many Americans in the wake of 9/11 was like that of a bitchy (and not especially attractive) schoolgirl who thinks everyone hates her because they are jeoulous of how pretty she is - when in actuality everyone hates her because she is a bitch. The same with the Cairo embassy thing - Hello, Mr and Mrs America, your tax dollars kept in power a repressive Egyptian dictator for 30 years, and the Egyptians are still angry about it.

The Egyptians were getting just as much money when the Arab spring began as they were in the previous 30 years. It was not the US keeping the Egyptian people repressed. it was their own decision. They finally broke up with a bad boyfriend after years of taking the abuse. American's know the history of the Region, and there is not just this imaginary history of 9/11 as you pretend exists. Your ignorance of the Beirut Embassy, Iran Barracks, TWA hijacking, Pan AM, and many other events have shaped many issues. But please continue on with your mksguided high school analogies.
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