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Dreadnought
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Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Transcript here:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/white...s-general-assembly-20120925?page=1

Here's a couple of passages that marked me:

Quote:
The future must not belong to those who target Coptic Christians in Egypt – it must be claimed by those in Tahrir Square who chanted “Muslims, Christians, we are one.” The future must not belong to those who bully women – it must be shaped by girls who go to school, and those who stand for a world where our daughters can live their dreams just like our sons. The future must not belong to those corrupt few who steal a country’s resources – it must be won by the students and entrepreneurs; workers and business owners who seek a broader prosperity for all people. Those are the men and women that America stands with; theirs is the vision we will support.

The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam. Yet to be credible, those who condemn that slander must also condemn the hate we see when the image of Jesus Christ is desecrated, churches are destroyed, or the Holocaust is denied. Let us condemn incitement against Sufi Muslims, and Shiite pilgrims. It is time to heed the words of Gandhi: “Intolerance is itself a form of violence and an obstacle to the growth of a true democratic spirit.” Together, we must work towards a world where we are strengthened by our differences, and not defined by them. That is what America embodies, and that is the vision we will support.

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam."

What the President has done is to equate “slandering Islam” with real crimes such as targeting Egyptian Copts and Christians, repressing and abusing women, and corruption. He has played right into the hands of the extremists who are trying to make “Islamaphobia” illegal and punishable by law, just as corruption and murder are punishable by law.

Either he is a Moron, or his values are far outside what we want as Americans. Freedom of speech was instituted to protect criticism and satire of those who historically are prone to react violently - politicians, clergy, and other people in a position of power, influence.
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BMI727
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Here's a couple of passages that marked me:

Hitting a little close to home, huh?

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Freedom of speech was instituted to protect criticism and satire of those who historically are prone to react violently - politicians, clergy, and other people in a position of power, influence.

...and it isn't going anywhere, so you have nothing to worry about.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Freedom of speech was instituted to protect criticism and satire of those who historically are prone to react violently - politicians, clergy, and other people in a position of power, influence.

Which is precisely what he notes earlier in the speech:

That is what we saw play out in the last two weeks, as a crude and disgusting video sparked outrage throughout the Muslim world. Now, I have made it clear that the United States government had nothing to do with this video, and I believe its message must be rejected by all who respect our common humanity.

It is an insult not only to Muslims, but to America as well -- for as the city outside these walls makes clear, we are a country that has welcomed people of every race and every faith. We are home to Muslims who worship across our country. We not only respect the freedom of religion, we have laws that protect individuals from being harmed because of how they look or what they believe. We understand why people take offense to this video because millions of our citizens are among them.

I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video. And the answer is enshrined in our laws: Our Constitution protects the right to practice free speech.

Here in the United States, countless publications provoke offense. Like me, the majority of Americans are Christian, and yet we do not ban blasphemy against our most sacred beliefs. As President of our country and Commander-in-Chief of our military, I accept that people are going to call me awful things every day -- and I will always defend their right to do so.

Americans have fought and died around the globe to protect the right of all people to express their views, even views that we profoundly disagree with. We do not do so because we support hateful speech, but because our founders understood that without such protections, the capacity of each individual to express their own views and practice their own faith may be threatened. We do so because in a diverse society, efforts to restrict speech can quickly become a tool to silence critics and oppress minorities.

We do so because given the power of faith in our lives, and the passion that religious differences can inflame, the strongest weapon against hateful speech is not repression; it is more speech -- the voices of tolerance that rally against bigotry and blasphemy, and lift up the values of understanding and mutual respect.


I don't think the President is calling for "Islamophobia" to be made illegal but to point out the future shouldn't belong to bigots nor to those (including Islamists) who only take offense when it's their faith that's being insulted.
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soon7x7
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
What the President has done is to equate “slandering Islam” with real crimes such as targeting Egyptian Copts and Christians, repressing and abusing women, and corruption. He has played right into the hands of the extremists who are trying to make “Islamaphobia” illegal and punishable by law, just as corruption and murder are punishable by law.

Yes he has, ...the only promise he has kept since his first campaign..."Hope and Change" but he never spelled out for who. It certainly is not for America. He has enabled an East vs West Climate that is travelling down a dark road. I believe this to be a very dangerous direction at this juncture and America better soon make up its mind how it will deal with the childish behavior we see pretty much on both sides. If left to continue, the outcome will be tragic. I'm seeing a global conflagration here taking shape. Like the "Nuclear Clock", I wonder what time it now is...about a quarter to Armageddon?
 
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casinterest
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
What the President has done is to equate “slandering Islam” with real crimes such as targeting Egyptian Copts and Christians, repressing and abusing women, and corruption. He has played right into the hands of the extremists who are trying to make “Islamaphobia” illegal and punishable by law, just as corruption and murder are punishable by law.

Where was Crime mentioned here?
You are really overrreaching on this one. A bit to much Rush Radio today?
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WestJet747
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:04 pm

My goodness, Dreadnought. This isn't a State of the Union address, it's the U.N. General Assembly General Debate. What else would you expect him to talk about?

May I remind all that the theme of this Session's debate is "Adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations by peaceful means". So in a time where tensions between the U.S. and the Middle East is tense, it is with full expectation that the President discuss hateful incidents that ultimately lead to violence, as it keeps within the topic of discussion as decided by the President of the Session.

If you want to hear an actual moron, Ahmedinejad spoke about 30 minutes ago, I'm sure the video has been posted already for your viewing pleasure.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either he is a Moron, or his values are far outside what we want as Americans. Freedom of speech was instituted to protect criticism and satire of those who historically are prone to react violently - politicians, clergy, and other people in a position of power, influence.

I guess you missed this part:

"I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video. And the answer is enshrined in our laws: Our Constitution protects the right to practice free speech."
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mbmbos
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
What the President has done is to equate “slandering Islam”...

That's your interpretation, which relies heavily on taking this one sentence out of context. That's a trick Karl Rove uses and one that FoxNews uses too.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either he is a Moron, or his values are far outside what we want as Americans.

Yep, let's continue with the theme that he's not like the rest of us. He's different. He has different "values" than the rest of America.

Yeah, right. Oh and he's black too!

I suppose that constantly questioning the President's loyalty, constantly implying he's not one of us is the only way to take him down when one can't win by debating actual policy - policy that has real impact on the lives and economic well being of American citizens.

...just sayin'.
 
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 6):
That's your interpretation, which relies heavily on taking this one sentence out of context. That's a trick Karl Rove uses and one that FoxNews uses too.

This is actually a talking point by Erik Erickson on Red State. No original thought needed.

Looking at the rest of the speech it is actually reasonable:

Quote:
The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam. Yet to be credible, those who condemn that slander must also condemn the hate we see when the image of Jesus Christ is desecrated, churches are destroyed, or the Holocaust is denied. Let us condemn incitement against Sufi Muslims, and Shiite pilgrims. It is time to heed the words of Gandhi: “Intolerance is itself a form of violence and an obstacle to the growth of a true democratic spirit.” Together, we must work towards a world where we are strengthened by our differences, and not defined by them. That is what America embodies, and that is the vision we will support.

In other words a plague on all religious extremists houses, something most reasonable people can agree on.
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soon7x7
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 6):
Yep, let's continue with the theme that he's not like the rest of us. He's different. He has different "values" than the rest of America.

He has indeed...next!
 
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):

"I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video. And the answer is enshrined in our laws: Our Constitution protects the right to practice free speech."

I did not miss that - but think that he negates or soft-pedals the impact when he mentions those who blaspheme being on equal footing with the corrupt, the abusers, and the violent.

The simple truth is that the Islamic world must learn to accept criticism, satire, and even boneheaded ignorant statements/accusations against things they hold dear, including their prophet, without flying off the handle and killing people. Just like in the rest of the world. In Japan, a century ago, the emperor was considered a god. Now, nobody will kill you if you make fun of him. In the predominantly Christian West, insulting Christians has become a popular sport, and while you might get heated words, you never see people rushing out of church on Sunday and tearing down the town.
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting helvknight (Reply 7):
In other words a plague on all religious extremists houses, something most reasonable people can agree on.

   Indeed.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
I did not miss that - but think that he negates or soft-pedals the impact when he mentions those who blaspheme being on equal footing with the corrupt, the abusers, and the violent.

As mentioned by mbmbos, it comes down to interpretation. Everybody is going to interpret this speech in their own way. My interpretation was that he did not put them on equal footing, but that he drew attention to the problems in all their forms. I believe it's too easy to blame only those commit the physical violence, and allow the puppeteers to go about their business.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
The simple truth is that the Islamic world must learn to accept criticism, satire, and even boneheaded ignorant statements/accusations against things they hold dear, including their prophet, without flying off the handle and killing people.

Agreed, but where is Obama wrong in chastising those who make the boneheaded statements in the first place? Sure, the violence is deplorable and inexcusable, but America (and every other country for that matter) should never ignore those who use the pen as their weapon. That's what I understood Obama to mean by his comments, and I agree with it.
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 10):
Agreed, but where is Obama wrong in chastising those who make the boneheaded statements in the first place?

Because he just gives weight to those who will say, "Yes, but...". Killing because of blasphemy, is wrong, period, punkt schluss, finis. No excuses.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
The simple truth is that the Islamic world must learn to accept criticism, satire, and even boneheaded ignorant statements/accusations against things they hold dear, including their prophet, without flying off the handle and killing people. Just like in the rest of the world.

Which is exactly what Obama says:

And on this we must agree: There is no speech that justifies mindless violence. There are no words that excuse the killing of innocents. There's no video that justifies an attack on an embassy. There's no slander that provides an excuse for people to burn a restaurant in Lebanon, or destroy a school in Tunis, or cause death and destruction in Pakistan.

In this modern world with modern technologies, for us to respond in that way to hateful speech empowers any individual who engages in such speech to create chaos around the world. We empower the worst of us if that’s how we respond.
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TheCol
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:45 pm

I found his speech to be very watered down. He had a few good points, but it seemed to be more of a campaign speech than anything else. He definitely played it safe, focusing on selling America's foreign policy, and the credibility of his administration, to the world.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
"Adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations by peaceful means".

 

Meanwhile, as the world leaders in NY kiss ass and pat each other on the back for a job well done, the violence and persecution continues.
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 6):
Yeah, right. Oh and he's black too!

Uncalled for, are you calling Dreadnought a racist? I assure you he's not unless you can back up your baseless, inflammatory remark.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):

I don't know, personally I think he could have been a little more firm on it being free speech, and that our citizens will continue to have that right, but otherwise I think it was pretty good. He was saying that moving forward in the future isn't going to be for those that hold hate--hate/slander against the Prophet, those destroying churches, etc.

I think we're missing the point of view of an ordinary Muslim in some of these countries. The media is controlled by the government and NOTHING sees the light of day unless the government approves. Then you see, out of America, this video. "Well, it came out of America, the government must be okay with it." Truth is, the government is NOT okay with it, but they support the freedom of speech to say it. Again, I think he could've been a little more stern on that front, but I think him "playing into the Islamists' hands" or "moving towards limiting free speech" is off the mark.

Trust me, some of these countries piss me off too, but if we learned anything in the past few decades, it's being too lax on them isn't good but being too harsh/aggressive is not good either. The President has the impossible job of balancing it, is doing the best he can, by no means perfect, but really, I'm not sure if the perfect approach exists. If you want to find a flaw in the way he handles things, you will ALWAYS be able to, no one is perfect.

That is what has really been turning me off with the Republicans lately--they are too nitpicky about a lot of things. They have many legitimate complaints, yes, but everything our President does seems to be an issue... they are holding him at such a high standard he could be Reagan 2.0 and still mess up in almost every front. Just my opinion and what I've observed lately
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:44 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either he is a Moron, or his values are far outside what we want as Americans.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 8):
He has indeed...next!

I guarantee both of you that I have different values than you do, at least on some things.

Am I not an American?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Uncalled for, are you calling Dreadnought a racist? I assure you he's not unless you can back up your baseless, inflammatory remark.

I usually agree with you, but I don't see that remark as much more inflammatory than saying Obama doesn't want what Americans want (read the next sentence before anyone comments ---> ). Because, basically, that's saying that anyone that is going to vote for him or agrees with him is un-American. And that's a bunch of BS.

It's too damn easy to simply say "oh, he's un-American". It gets people's blood boiling with little proof necessary. Ain't anyone in the US exactly the same as anyone else, and it's utter crap to think that way.
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CaliAtenza
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
The simple truth is that the Islamic world must learn to accept criticism, satire, and even boneheaded ignorant statements/accusations against things they hold dear, including their prophet, without flying off the handle and killing people.

its not the whole Islamic world that does this, but the uneducated and the crazy people.
 
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Uncalled for, are you calling Dreadnought a racist? I assure you he's not unless you can back up your baseless, inflammatory remark.

I have not called him a racist as you can plainly see. However, his comments do speak for themselves.
 
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Uncalled for, are you calling Dreadnought a racist?

Sounds kinda like it.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 17):
I have not called him a racist as you can plainly see. However, his comments do speak for themselves.

Ah, so you are calling me a racist.

All I said was that, unless that paragraph was put together by a boneheaded speechwriter, and Obama was tired when he reviewed it and did not catch the implications of talking of freedom of speech in the same manner as talking of corruption and physical persecution of a minority population (which admittedly is a 3rd possibility I should have listed), then either he is an idiot, or he sincerely believes that blasphemy against Islam should somehow have a special protective category all its own, not given to Christians, Buddhists etc. Basically rewarding the religion which is the most violent. That is against what America stands for. There are plenty of others who also are philosophically dead-set against the values upon which the country was founded, like Nancy Pelosi. Am I a racist for calling her on that? Race has nothing to do with it.

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seb146
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:11 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
What the President has done is to equate “slandering Islam” with real crimes

Like freedom of speech? In a country that has their own set of rules that have nothing to do with us?

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either he is a Moron, or his values are far outside what we want as Americans

Like freedom of speech? How dare he! Defending freedom of/from religion!
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Like freedom of speech? In a country that has their own set of rules that have nothing to do with us?


Let's rephrase that for the less literate crowd.

What the President has done is to equate Freedom of Speech with real crimes...
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Quokkas
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:43 am

With freedom comes responsibility. Something that a lot of people don't want to accept. It would be ideal if everyone were responsible and had enough respect for others to allow for consideration but those traits are often lacking. Also lacking is the ability to listen and hear what is being said and instead only choosing to hear the bits one wants to.

Instead of taking the speech in its entirety, the speech is dissected for possible flaws that prove that the speech-maker is deficient or sending mixed messages, favouring an enemy rather than appealing for an end to extremism wherever it comes from. Not really surprising as it was a political speech and if politics is about anything, it is about conflict.

Far from giving succour to fundamentalists, Obama's message is aimed also at those within the Islamic world who incite hatred against Sufi Muslims, and Shiite pilgrims. Whether it is Sunni against Shia, or Muslim against Jew, or Christians against the others, Obama has roundly condemned hatred and vilification. Some people may not approve: their right to express their hatred of other people is more important than trying to seek that which unites rather than that which destroys. And such people will call themselves all sorts of things; this 'ist or that 'ite or another 'ian. It matters not what they call themselves. They may claim to be different from each other, morally superior or whatever, but they share the same hatred of their fellows.

Meanwhile decent people from different backgrounds and religions continue to work together to resolve differences. Obama's appeal is for people to join with them rather than swell the number of those who wish to create deeper schisms.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 17):
I have not called him a racist as you can plainly see. However, his comments do speak for themselves.

Way to just, um, prove yourself wrong?    

I've read his comments on this site long enough to say he is not a racist...

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):

   What are you talking about?? While I think a bit differently on this issue, I at least see where he's coming from. Your rant doesn't make any sense. What he is really saying is that the President listed off a few items, one of them was "insulting the prophet" and the other was "destroying Christian churches," as if they are being placed on the same level. You're post completely missed the mark! Slow down and understand before you go off the deep end and post like that!  Wow!
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casinterest
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):

What the President has done is to equate Freedom of Speech with real crimes...

He did not such thing. At all. Other than on some crazy Right wing webpage rant.

What he did was acknoweldge that we should not embrace people that use their Freedom of speech to say outlandish stuff.
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flyguy89
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 23):
What he did was acknoweldge that we should not embrace people that use their Freedom of speech to say outlandish stuff.

Well duh...that's been implicit throughout this whole ordeal. Who is actually out there praising the video for it's cinematic "mastery" and it's accuracy? No one. But in the current context of Muslim nations calling on the West to tamper slandering of Mohammed and UN resolutions to make "blasphemy" a sanctionable offense, it's an amateurish statement.

People say outlandish stuff all the time...I've seen ridiculous satires of Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism, Scientology...etc rampant across the national scene on shows such as South Park, American Dad, and Family Guy, yet the intelligentsia remains silent. But when some nobody puts out a video just a couple minutes long about Islam, all of a sudden there's supposedly this worldwide "come to Jesus" moment (no pun intended) on the responsibility of free speach? Give me a break.

This, to me, is reminiscent of the Tucson shooting with Gabriel Giffords. Seemingly out of nowhere, without knowing the personality or motivations of the shooter, we're suddenly deeply concerned about the intensity of "rhetoric" in our political discourse and Sarah Palin is partly at fault for the shooting because she had an election map with cross-hairs on it   Never mind that it turned out the guy was just a complete loon whose political views were outside the scope of both political parties.
 
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:26 pm

What the President has done is to equate Freedom of Speech with real crimes...

He did not such thing. At all.[/quote]

Please read...

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The future must not belong to those who target Coptic Christians in Egypt...
The future must not belong to those who bully women...
The future must not belong to those corrupt few who steal a country’s resources...
The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam
Quoting casinterest (Reply 23):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):


[quote=casinterest,reply=23]Other than on some crazy Right wing webpage rant.

Are you saying he did not say these things?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
I've read his comments on this site long enough to say he is not a racist...

Thank you. But in today's world, disagreeing with anything Obama says is enough to get you labeled a racist, it seems.
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Aesma
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:32 pm

I agree with what he said in general but I also agree that the part about slandering Islam wasn't worded well. Sure, slander is not something constructive and will not lead to a better future, but it has a purpose, making people think. And there is really no point in condemning it, it's even counterproductive since it's legal anyway.

Another reason why slander should not be in our future is that it should become unnecessary, in a perfect world. Not because it would be banned.
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casinterest
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
it's an amateurish statement.

Not when the actual statement makes the correct statement .

From his speech
"
I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video. And the answer is enshrined in our laws: Our Constitution protects the right to practice free speech.

Here in the United States, countless publications provoke offense. Like me, the majority of Americans are Christian, and yet we do not ban blasphemy against our most sacred beliefs. As President of our country and Commander-in-Chief of our military, I accept that people are going to call me awful things every day -- and I will always defend their right to do so.
"

The statement needs to be said and on record. What makes sense to the US, does not ,make sense in places where they kill for blasphemy and the Government sensors all piublications. the hope is that the US president makes it through those filters and is usnderstood in the context of the whole speech. Not in the context of selected soundbytes that a bunch of right wing folkds are looking to attack Obama in hopes that h makes the US sound weak.
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imiakhtar
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Dreadnought a racist

Dreadnought is not a racist. He is a xenophobe.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 28):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Dreadnought a racist

Dreadnought is not a racist. He is a xenophobe.

This is getting ridiculous. I'm sure many xenophobes just decide to go live in foreign countries (Switzerland in his case. Don't say "but they're all white..." What a load of .....)
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zckls04
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:48 pm

Off topic, but did anyone see Netenyahu's bomb diagram?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...binyamin-netanyahu-cartoon-bomb-un

As many have pointed out, it's quite a surprise that Iran sources their bombs from ACME.
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WestJet747
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 16):
its not the whole Islamic world that does this, but the uneducated and the crazy people.

I'd say it's just the crazy people. I've met uneducated Muslims who aren't violent whatsoever.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 17):
I have not called him a racist as you can plainly see. However, his comments do speak for themselves.

Even insinuating the he is a racist (when he clearly made no such comments) degrades the quality of this discussion.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
or he sincerely believes that blasphemy against Islam should somehow have a special protective category all its own, not given to Christians, Buddhists etc. Basically rewarding the religion which is the most violent.

Actually, on a couple occasions during his speech he mentions that those religions need to be on the same level. I believe one of the quotes was: "Muslims and Christians need to be one"

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
I've seen ridiculous satires of Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism, Scientology...etc rampant across the national scene on shows such as South Park, American Dad, and Family Guy, yet the intelligentsia remains silent. But when some nobody puts out a video just a couple minutes long about Islam, all of a sudden there's supposedly this worldwide "come to Jesus" moment (no pun intended) on the responsibility of free speach? Give me a break.

I think you need to watch a little more South Park and Family Guy. Both those shows came under fire for attempting to show Muhammad. The Family Guy episode was ultimately censored. South Park tried to do it twice I believe; the first was uncensored, the second was censored (take this with a grain of salt as I'm going off of memory).
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:46 am

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 28):
Dreadnought is not a racist. He is a xenophobe.

LOL, I'm married into an Indian family, lived most of my life overseas, and have every intention of one day retiring overseas (haven't decided where yet).

Sounds like the typical response of a "tolerant" leftist when faced with opinions he cannot tolerate.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 31):
Actually, on a couple occasions during his speech he mentions that those religions need to be on the same level. I believe one of the quotes was: "Muslims and Christians need to be one"

Fine, so what? He still condemned a person for exercising his rights to free speech, to the same degree as pretty severe crimes.

His only mention of that film, if he had to mention it at all, should have been limited to, "Deal with it."
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 1930
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 27):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
it's an amateurish statement.

Not when the actual statement makes the correct statement .

It still holds water even in context. Logic is logic and, whether intentionally or unintentionally, he drew an equivalency between those who slander Mohammed and those rioting.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 27):
I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video. And the answer is enshrined in our laws: Our Constitution protects the right to practice free speech.

Yeah he says that, but then his administration went and pleaded with Youtube to take down the video, that is censorship.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 31):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
I've seen ridiculous satires of Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism, Scientology...etc rampant across the national scene on shows such as South Park, American Dad, and Family Guy, yet the intelligentsia remains silent. But when some nobody puts out a video just a couple minutes long about Islam, all of a sudden there's supposedly this worldwide "come to Jesus" moment (no pun intended) on the responsibility of free speach? Give me a break.

I think you need to watch a little more South Park and Family Guy. Both those shows came under fire for attempting to show Muhammad. The Family Guy episode was ultimately censored. South Park tried to do it twice I believe; the first was uncensored, the second was censored (take this with a grain of salt as I'm going off of memory).

That just makes my point. There's no outcry for "sensitivity" for the beliefs of others when it's Mormonism, Christianity, or Judaism, but when it comes to Islam, the cries for sensitive and tolerance come out of the woodwork right away.
 
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pu
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:27 am

In the first paragraph Obama talks about "real crimes" like bullying women and stealing resources.
.
In the second paragraph he talks about acts offensive to religions, including Christians, Jews and Muslims.
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If someone mentions murder in one paragraph and jaywalkng in the next paragraph, that doesn't mean they are equivalent. Nor that the speaker is Treating them as equivalent.
.
,
,
,
If he had left out Islam and just left in the part about offending Jews amd Christians then the big bright letters on foxnews.com today would be about something else. And this post would be replaced with a different variation of the terrorism-muslim scare technique that hasn't appealed to voetrs since 2004.

...this is just another variation of the eternal Muslim-baiting brought up by desperate Romney surrogates.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
or his values are far outside what we want as Americans
http://www.people-press.org/2012/09/...omneys-comments-viewed-negatively/

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-27 21:32:15]
 
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zckls04
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:04 am

I agree partly with everybody on this one. I do think the words are poorly chosen; slandering Islam should be no more frowned upon than slandering any other religion.

However viewing his speech as a whole the central message is clear, and I really hate this habit the media have of taking things out of context (c.f. "you didn't build that"). I don't really want politicians wasting time and money figuring out how their speeches may look if quoted out of context, and I tend to always fact-check campaign ads to see if the quotes they use are in context.

Haven't found one yet, but if I do you'll be the first to know.....
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flyguy89
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting pu (Reply 34):
If someone mentions murder in one paragraph and jaywalkng in the next paragraph, that doesn't mean they are equivalent. Nor that the speaker is Treating them as equivalent.

That's not what's going on here though. This is a speech, not a series of essays or books where paragraphs and textual and literary nuances can be clearly laid out. The theme of his speech concerned the future (i.e. "the future must not belong to those who..."), where it's amateurish is him, either on purpose on unintentionally, lumping these actions together allowing such an equivalency to be made.

Quoting pu (Reply 34):
...this is just another variation of the eternal Muslim-baiting brought up by desperate Romney surrogates.

Oh please. I don't believe he necessarily thinks there's a moral equivalency between blasphemy/free speech and murder, but I take issue with him being so cavalier with his words considering his audience at the UN where there are currently 57 nations pushing a resolution to make blasphemy sanctionable.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:56 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
considering his audience at the UN where there are currently 57 nations pushing a resolution to make blasphemy sanctionable.

Which, like all UNGA resolutions, have no enforcement powers, despite what the John Birchers would like to have you believe.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
windy95
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam."

Putting freedom of speech in the same category as killing Copt's, oppressing woman and resource stealing Dictator's.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
What the President has done is to equate “slandering Islam” with real crimes

Slandering Islam is the same as resource stealing, oppresor of woman evil Dictators. Obama is showing how he values the Prophet Muhammmed in this speech.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 6):
Yep, let's continue with the theme that he's not like the rest of us. He's different. He has different "values" than the rest of America.

Yeah, right. Oh and he's black too!

I suppose that constantly questioning the President's loyalty, constantly implying he's not one of us is the only way to take him down when one can't win by debating actual policy - policy that has real impact on the lives and economic well being of American citizens.

...just sayin'.

Just saying that these types of attacks from the party of race is getting old. Find a real argument.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
What the President has done is to equate Freedom of Speech with real crimes...

Or revealed what he really thinks about Islam.

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 28):
Dreadnought is not a racist. He is a xenophobe.

Another intellectually dishonest and racist argument.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Obama is showing how he values the Prophet Muhammmed in this speech.

Of course He values Muhammed, he's a muslim you know.

But seriously, How do you peolpe manage to take this all so far out of context? You all make yourselves look like complete bunch of arses.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
What the President has done is to equate “slandering Islam” with real crimes such as targeting Egyptian Copts and Christians,

Slandering Islam is a real crime in some places, so what he actually did was equate real crimes with real crimes.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Slandering Islam is the same as resource stealing, oppresor of woman evil Dictators. Obama is showing how he values the Prophet Muhammmed in this speech.

In some cultures, yes and seeing as it was a speech to many dignatories around the globe from numerous different cultures it would be stupid to ignore their beliefs and priorities.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Another intellectually dishonest and racist argument.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Or revealed what he really thinks about Islam.

There is about as much evidence for Dreadnaught being a racist as there is for "Barry" being a Muslim.

Fred
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slider
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either he is a Moron, or his values are far outside what we want as Americans. Freedom of speech was instituted to protect criticism and satire of those who historically are prone to react violently - politicians, clergy, and other people in a position of power, influence.

The real issue is that people are letting Obama off by still blaming some film for the violence. That in and of itself is intellectually disingenuous, a lie, a falsehood, a total misdirection.

It was a terrorist attack that was pre-planned and orchestrated. And the PC-whores in this country still refuse to call Islam what it is, making excuses while painting with a moral relativist brush all the way around.
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 40):
call Islam what it is

And what is it?

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
slider
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 41):
And what is it?

An ideology born of bloodshed that strives to conquer the world.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
His only mention of that film, if he had to mention it at all, should have been limited to, "Deal with it."

And how do you think that would have gone over?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
There's no outcry for "sensitivity" for the beliefs of others when it's Mormonism, Christianity, or Judaism, but when it comes to Islam, the cries for sensitive and tolerance come out of the woodwork right away.

South Park takes tonnes of slack for it's representations of various religions. I know the Mormons definitely aren't a fan of what Matt Stone and Trey Parker have to say about them.

The voice of Chef actually quit the show a few years back because he was so offended by how they depicted Scientology (I don't think Scientology is an actual religion either, but that's neither here nor there).

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Obama is showing how he values the Prophet Muhammmed in this speech.

As I said earlier: What did you expect? Do you want him to go up there and proclaim "Muhammad is a douchebag"? (rhetorical question) Of course not. Obama's priority right now should be to put out the flames, not ignite them further.

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
An ideology born of bloodshed that strives to conquer the world.

Yeah? Well I guess I better submit to my future Muslim overlords now while I'm ahead  
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slider
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 44):
Yeah? Well I guess I better submit to my future Muslim overlords now while I'm ahead

Submission is exactly the name of the game. That's the whole goal.

Well, not up in here. We stand at the gates of Vienna once again it would seem, except no one really realizes it.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 40):
The real issue is that people are letting Obama off by still blaming some film for the violence.

This argument really kills me. I paid keen attention to the events as they unfolded, and almost immediately you had a bunch of people on the right attacking the President for... just because! (created the outrage.) Then they tossed a few BS arguments out before finally deciding on attacking their (I admit) overly-cautious approach on the issue.

So basically many on the right created the outrage THEN decided on a cause for the outrage. In other words, they just got pissed off at him right away and then found a reason for it later. I have lost so much respect for the GOP lately, there is a difference between keeping the other side honest and rational debate and nitpicking everything someone does. The way they are acting, Jesus himself could be President and they'd find something wrong with everything he'd do!

Call the President out when he needs to be, keep him honest. But don't attack every single little flaw... even they know they wouldn't be able to do the job nearly perfect either
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
aloges
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
We stand at the gates of Vienna once again it would seem, except no one really realizes it.

...or could it be that nobody realises it because there is nothing to realise?   A wise man once said "In my kingdom, everyone can go to heaven in his own fashion." His kingdom went on to become a major power on the continent in question.

The point is this: Doomsday scenarios of the kind that you repeat are nothing but airheaded claptrap. People who are driven and perverted by their lust for power and influence are the problem, as they have been since time immemorial - no matter which deities they worship.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
Submission is exactly the name of the game. That's the whole goal.

Well, not up in here. We stand at the gates of Vienna once again it would seem, except no one really realizes it.

Do you honestly think Sharia law is going to take over the West and we will be slaves to Muslims? What do you think is going to happen? I hate to judge others, but you sound extremely paranoid of the minority of a religion. There are Muslims in America too you know, besides that one honor killing or whatever, I don't see them losing their minds
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
aloges
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 47):
Do you honestly think Sharia law is going to take over the West and we will be slaves to Muslims?

From what I've read in the past, he believes that this is exactly what every single Muslim in the world is going for.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
BMI727
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RE: Obama's UN Speech

Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 47):
Do you honestly think Sharia law is going to take over the West and we will be slaves to Muslims?

It cannot because the First Amendment specifically forbids it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

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