NAV20
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Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:20 pm

Assange has now spent 100 days in Ecuador's London Embassy. He's worse off even than someone in prison, really - not only is his 'cell' smaller, with the British police guarding both the front and back entrances of the embassy, he doesn't even get any 'exercise time' in the open air.....

It now looks as if either Assange or the Ecuadorians (or both) are 'cracking':-

"ECUADOR has asked Britain whether Julian Assange could be permitted to leave his London hideout for medical treatment.

"The query comes as the two countries met to seek to end a deadlock over the activist's fate.

"Assange has sheltered inside Ecuador's embassy in London, beyond the reach of British police, since June 19 - a total of 100 days.

"He is seeking to avoid extradition to Sweden for questioning over sex crimes allegations.

"Though Ecuador has granted Assange asylum, if he steps outside the building he will be arrested to be flown to Sweden."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/ecu...eting/story-fnbzs1v0-1226483303150

Quite obvious what the British should (and almost certainly will) say (and, if necessary, do). Just repeat that, the moment Assange leaves the embassy, he will be arrested. But add that he will then be afforded any medical care that he needs; though guarded by policemen while he receives it. And that, provided he is fit enough, he will then be extradited to Sweden forthwith........

I don't personally have any time for Assange. Anyone who is accused of a crime should face up to things and submit to legal proceedings, while energetically defending themselves. The last thing they should do, in my opinion, is what Assange has done; just 'lie low' and severely inconvenience other people (not least the well-meaning Ecuadorians).

So I think this business has gone on long enough, and hope very much that Assange will indeed leave the embassy (effectively, 'give himself up') and submit to the required questioning in Sweden. But I'm sure that not everyone will agree with me. What does everyone else think?
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moo
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:23 pm

Ecuador have committed themselves to protecting Assange, so they should provide medical care themselves, within the embassy.

This isn't a "crossed fingers" situation - if he leaves the embassy, he should be arrested.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
Ecuador have committed themselves to protecting Assange, so they should provide medical care themselves

See what you mean, moo. But I suspect that, after 100 days spent entirely indoors, Assange is suffering from something that can't be treated just by a GP visiting and dishing out some pills.........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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moo
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:07 pm

Diddums.

His confinement is voluntary, not imposed.
 
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moo
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:16 pm

I also hear that Sweden has an excellent healthcare system...
 
mham001
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Perhaps he wants to attach a pair of testicles to gain the courage he needs to face his accusers.
 
qf002
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:42 am

This whole spectacle has done only one thing in my eyes -- prove that Assange is guilty of whatever it is Swedish Police want to talk to him about...

He can't stay in that embassy forever, and neither the British nor the Swedish are going to back down. One way or another, he's got to face the music eventually.

That said, I don't understand why he can't be questioned over crimes committed in Sweden while remaining in London (or Ecuador I guess).

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
he doesn't even get any 'exercise time' in the open air.....

Perhaps he should have chosen an embassy with nice big grounds, like say the US Embassy, for example?  
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
That said, I don't understand why he can't be questioned over crimes committed in Sweden while remaining in London (or Ecuador I guess).

If I got the information right from a previous thread, it has something to do with Sweden actually needing Assange (the suspect) physically in Sweden before he can be questioned/charged/accused (not sure which.) But yes, it seems a little fishy since Swedish prisons don't sound that bad, they don't extradite people when they can face the death penalty (so not gonna be killed by the US) and just the US's legal grounds for prosecuting him are very shaky at best.

Plus, I think if the US assassinated him or something that would do a lot more damage than just leaving him be. Wikileaks did its damage but no one really talks about it too much, it's old news. Killing Assange would just bring more attention and bad press to America. That's assuming this administration would even sign off on shady assassinations...
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Ken777
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 5):
Perhaps he wants to attach a pair of testicles

Actually I think it was the ones he as that got him into trouble in the first place.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
He can't stay in that embassy forever

Why not? 10 to 20 years could replace the jail time he'd probably get in Sweden.

I do look to Ecuador's decision being reviewed at the highest levels. Maybe if they just start lowering the quality of the food he gets, sending him a bill for the room & board, etc.

Of course, as soon as he has a real medical emergency the Brits will have him tagged at the hospital.  
 
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
That said, I don't understand why he can't be questioned over crimes committed in Sweden while remaining in London

It would be pointless, I guess. They already have evidence from the two girls. Assange, when and if he's ever 'questioned,' will deny it, of course, but that's a matter of 'Well, he would, wouldn't he?' No use questioning him in a place where they have no powers of arrest.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
If I got the information right from a previous thread, it has something to do with Sweden actually needing Assange (the suspect) physically in Sweden before he can be questioned/charged/accused (not sure which.)

Quite so; but my guess is that the operative word is 'charged.'   As it should be, IMO........

A few more 'straws in the wind' in this press story:-

"As the WikiLeaks founder spent his 100th day in the Ecuadorean embassy, where he has sought refuge from extradition to Sweden to face allegations of sexual crimes, the country's foreign minister met his British counterpart, William Hague, to ask about contingency plans should Assange fall ill.

"Hague told Ricardo Patino that he would consult officials and lawyers and respond within a few days, but a British official commented: "Maybe the Ecuadoreans should have thought of that before they granted him asylum." The official added that British police were under obligation to arrest Assange as soon as he stepped out of the embassy.

"One thing we have proposed is to have an ambulance parked outside," Patino told the Guardian in an interview in New York. "What we have said, if such a case should happen, we should be ready to install an operating theatre inside the premises, unless Mr Hague responds, as he promised in the next few days, that he [Assange] would be able to go to a hospital."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012...ge-embassy-wikileaks?newsfeed=true

Ambulances? An operating theatre? Strongly suggests that 'something's up,' Assange is ill........
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prebennorholm
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
I don't understand why he can't be questioned over crimes committed in Sweden while remaining in London (or Ecuador I guess).

Any trial in Sweden is almost sure to involve some DNA tests.

That said, the Swedes are more than happy with the present situation. For several reasons:

1. As long as he is fed at the Ecuador Embassy in London the Swedes won't have to feed him.
2. Any trial in Stockholm could easily become a magnet to rioters from all over the world.
3. As long as he is not in Sweden, the Swedes won't need to deal with any request from the USA.

How will it end? Well, if he doesn't choose to go to Sweden, then there are two possibilities.

1. He stays in the Ecuador Embassy forever.
2. The London police at some time relaxes a little, and he is sneaked by night to Ecuador (which I expect is very likely).

And whatever happens, he will be a lifetime "prisoner" within the borders of Ecuador plus other countries which hate Sweden and the USA. And so what? The main message has been delivered long time ago: Whoever wants to succeed Assange, stay within the laws of the countries you deal with, or expect to live a lifestyle which is vastly inferior to what other people are used to.
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:08 am

Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized
I mean really this man put on the spotlight some huge war crimes and injustices going on in the world

As for Sweden, I am truly disappointed in them
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):

I'm too buzzed to really understand the sarcasm but I must admit, he is really playing the whole "the US is going to execute me" card way too much. The crimes he has to answer for have nothing to do with Wikileaks. Methinks there might be something more going on...

Off topic, but to our fellow Swedes, what kind of punishment (if guilty) is he looking at?
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Aesma
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 10):
Any trial in Sweden is almost sure to involve some DNA tests.

I don't see why, he freely admits to having sex with the women.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
The crimes he has to answer for have nothing to do with Wikileaks.

Well, if you think the US wants to take him out without making it about treason or such (which wouldn't hold anyway) then it makes sense to frame him for something else. Of course, spotty allegations of "rape by not wearing a condom" don't seem that effective a way to deal with him.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:49 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well, if you think the US wants to take him out without making it about treason or such (which wouldn't hold anyway) then it makes sense to frame him for something else. Of course, spotty allegations of "rape by not wearing a condom" don't seem that effective a way to deal with him.

Well that assumes that Sweden, as a sovereign nation, made that decision. I doubt that Sweden would bend to political will just because this guy offended the US. In fact, I believe that making a big deal out of Assange (at this point) would only bring more attention to him (IMO.)

I say let Sweden deal with him. I feel that they are honorable enough to make a decision that is free of bias from the US  Smile

[Edited 2012-09-29 21:49:58]
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mariner
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):

Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized

If you think the releases are heroic, then surely the hero would be Bradley Manning. Assange was just the (attention-seeking) publisher.

And from my point of view, he is a remarkably naive man. He published state secrets. He may have put lives at risk.

What did he think was going to happen?

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NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:56 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well, if you think the US wants to take him out without making it about treason or such (which wouldn't hold anyway) then it makes sense to frame him for something else.

Aesma, I doubt that you've ever been to Sweden? Because, if you had, you'd know that they are almost 'aggressively' independent, they invariably go their own way; and they have a long and proud tradition of neutrality......... There is no possibility whatever that they are conspiring in some way with the United States.

Come to that, the USA and Britain still have a thing called the 'special relationship' - born in the days when they worked together to save Europe from the German Nazis, and much of the rest of the world from the 'Empire of Japan.' If the USA had ever wanted to lay their hands on Assange, they could have sought his extradition from the UK at any time, on grounds of espionage; with the virtual certainty of success. I agree with you that they might not be able to make such charges stick - but there's no reasonable doubt that they could have got their hands on him, and put him on trial, any time they liked, years ago.

As things are - because neither he nor the Ecuadorians thought through the limitations of 'asylum' - he's 'going nowhere.' Had they realised those limitations, smuggled him out of Britain, and quietly got him on a aeroplane to Ecuador, things would be different. But as things are, he's facing 'life imprisonment' in the embassy.

Except that I suspect that, first of all, he's not at all well; and, secondly, that the Ecuadorians are getting more and more fed up with his presence disrupting the smooth functioning of their embassy.

Case of 'watch this space,' I reckon......... looks as if 'something will happen' quite soon.

[Edited 2012-09-29 23:57:20]
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NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:28 pm

And so saying, here's the next 'development':-

"I miss many things: going to the shops or out to eat with friends. I miss an open horizon, putting my toes in the sea, going fishing, climbing a mountain," Mr Assange told the newspaper.

While he tries to maintain a healthy diet and exercises daily under the direction of a personal trainer, Mr Assange admits his detention is taking a toll.

"My health is slowly deteriorating," he said.

"I hope it's just physical. I am taking steps to try to stop it, but I have a problem with a lung which is causing a racking cough."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/bre...afety/story-e6frf7k6-1226484932971

No doctor nowadays is going even to try to treat those symptoms without a full checkup, including X-rays, blood tests, heart tests etc. And he may already have been told that he very probably needs an operation.

What a self-centred bugger he is. Whose fault is it that he can't see his kids, go to the beach, climb mountains etc.?

Anyway - now that he's worried about his own precious skin, I reckon he'll give himself up within a week or so.

[Edited 2012-09-30 06:39:58]
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bristolflyer
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
What a self-centred bugger he is. Whose fault is it that he can't see his kids, go to the beach, climb mountains etc.?

Does he have kids? He sure is self centered - he has brought all this upon himself. As has been said before, he's gonna have to face extradition at some point, all he's doing now is prolonging it. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Man up Assange, get deported then you'll free up our newspapers for something important to write about.
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Stealthz
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:51 pm

Get over it Julian,

You are an egotistical publicity hound that adds little value to society.

The USA can't try you as a traitor, the rabidly independant Swedes are unlikely to extradite you to a 3rd party( if the Brits with the above mentioned special relationship with the US haven't then the Swedes are hardly likely too!)

You have chosen to take asylum with that paragon of freedom and free speech, Ecuador, How funny is that?

Imagine your self as an Ecuadorian journalist that discovered something questionable about government, human rights or corruption in your country and see how well the "freedoms" you espouse and expect as a "right" are respected in your "adopted" haven!

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a huge opportunity for our governments(all of them) to be more transparent in many of their(our) foreign policy engagements. I am just not convinced that Messers Assange and Manning are best positioned(or qualified) to make that call.
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RussianJet
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:16 pm

He made his bed, he can damn well lie in it.
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compensateme
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized.

 

Then again, some people believe Hitler was a hero too.
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mham001
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Of course, spotty allegations of "rape by not wearing a condom" don't seem that effective a way to deal with him.

It's amazing that US intelligence was able to sway not one, but 2! Assange groupies to publicly come forward with these fake allegations. They must have incredible powers.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 22):
It's amazing that US intelligence was able to sway not one, but 2! Assange groupies to publicly come forward with these fake allegations. They must have incredible powers.

And really, what would be the point of the US doing this? The damage has been done, Assange is not a threat, putting him on trial or killing him would just make us look bad and bring even more attention to Wikileaks.

Measures have been put into place to ensure this won't happen again. The military hates flash drives now... on our base if you even plug your iPhone into a computer to charge it some system very far away will read it as an unauthorized device and suspend your account. Notice that having Assange dead, alive, or in custody doesn't affect this process at all.

Assange just needs to man up and face the charges
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Ken777
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Assange is ill........

Probably more mentally than anything.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
As for Sweden, I am truly disappointed in them

Why? They are following their legal protocols. What people tend to forget is that Assange really isn't anyone special in his legal circumstances. There is absolutely no need for special treatment.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
I don't see why, he freely admits to having sex with the women.

As I understand it, the only consensual sex he had was based on his using a condom. When he reportedly had sex and didn't use a condom that, under local laws, was rape - the woman did not consent to that form of sex.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
exercises daily under the direction of a personal trainer,

He has a personal trainer who works with him on a daily basis? WTF! Nice that he has the money for that and appears to me that he cannot be that sick if he is working with a PT on a daily basis.

Maybe all this talk about some mythical illness is simply an effort for sympathy and a way for him to leave.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
No doctor nowadays is going even to try to treat those symptoms without a full checkup, including X-rays, blood tests, heart tests etc. And he may already have been told that he very probably needs an operation.

A doctor can generally determine if antibiotics are needed for a chest infection. A portable x-ray can be taken if desired and the guy can spit in a cup for lab work No special needs at all.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:24 pm

Assange is great man, there is absolutely nothing wrong with exposing war crimes and other dark stuff committed by US government and army. World needs more people like him and Manning.

And yeah yeah he may have put some lives in risk, but after all military people in those operations are always risking their life so who cares?

Still, I think Assange should leave his hiding place and go to Sweden, I doubt they would send him to the US.



[Edited 2012-09-30 12:25:34]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
Assange is great man, there is absolutely nothing wrong with exposing war crimes and other dark stuff committed by US government and army

...who has unprotected sex with women against their will.

Should we just ignore that just because he exposed some secrets? Doing something 'good' does not give him a free pass for misbehavior
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pvjin
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
...who has unprotected sex with women against their will.

Should we just ignore that just because he exposed some secrets? Doing something 'good' does not give him a free pass for misbehavior

This whole rape story probably is total rubbish and pathetic try to make Assange look bad. I wonder how much those women got paid by US government / some organization under it.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
Ken777
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
Still, I think Assange should leave his hiding place and go to Sweden, I doubt they would send him to the US.

I'm at the point where I doubt if the US really wants to give him the publicity of a trial.

Simply keep him in some embassy room for a few years then send him to Sweden. A few years in prison there and the guy ends up a nobody - the worst punish a guy like that can get.
 
compensateme
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):

Assange is great man, there is absolutely nothing wrong with exposing war crimes and other dark stuff committed by US government and army. World needs more people like him and Manning.

And yeah yeah he may have put some lives in risk, but after all military people in those operations are always risking their life so who cares?

Still, I think Assange should leave his hiding place and go to Sweden, I doubt they would send him to the US.

Assange is a great man? Did he have a whistleblower agenda for WikiLeaks, or was its agenda to "give people around the world an unprecedented insight into US Government foreign activities" as described? If a disgruntled Airbus employee were to publish proprietary documents detailing every facet of the company's dealings, would you consider that person a hero? Or would think that his actions could have compromised Airbus's competitive position?

Except in this case, Assange knowingly attempted to compromise the USA's national security and recklessly endangered lives. He's not a great man. He's a criminal.
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pvjin
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 29):

US actions in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with US national security, both of those wars were mainly because of political and economical reasons.

As long as US "national security" involves operations that do not comply with international laws exposing them is right thing to do. Real danger to your national security lies in your imperialistic foreign policy, not in people who expose the truth. Through the history so many lives would have been saved if there had been people like Assannge exposing all the dark secrets committed by United States.

[Edited 2012-09-30 13:37:57]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 27):
This whole rape story probably is total rubbish and pathetic try to make Assange look bad.

And what if it's not? Do you have confidence in the Swedish judicial system?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 27):
I wonder how much those women got paid by US government / some organization under it.

Why? To give this guy more publicity? Will planting fake charges on him undo Wikileaks? It's not as if he's a spy that governments need to stop before he gets more information, he's a guy with a website. I could have done what Assange did, you could, anyone could

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 28):
I'm at the point where I doubt if the US really wants to give him the publicity of a trial.

   What's there to gain?
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compensateme
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 30):
US actions in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with US national security, both of those wars were mainly because of political and economical reasons.

As long as US "national security" involves operations that do not comply with international laws exposing them is right thing to do. Real danger to your national security lies in your imperialistic foreign policy, not in people who expose the truth.

Afghanistan... seriously? I guess you think 9/11 was a conspiracy created by the USA government - fabricated like the Holocaust.
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pvjin
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 32):
Afghanistan... seriously? I guess you think 9/11 was a conspiracy created by the USA government - fabricated like the Holocaust.

Nope, 9/11 was result from centuries of aggressive and ignorant foreign policy committed by US government. It's not like those terrorist attacked US because of religion or because they hated lifestyle in US. No, they attacked because of political reasons, mainly Us messing around in Middle East and supporting Israel.

Also really the war in Afghanistan has done nothing good there, when US forces finally leave I bet it won't take long before Taliban will be in power again. You can't cure violence with more violence.
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pvjin
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
And what if it's not? Do you have confidence in the Swedish judicial system?

Hard to say, even the best judicial systems do have corruption.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
Why? To give this guy more publicity? Will planting fake charges on him undo Wikileaks? It's not as if he's a spy that governments need to stop before he gets more information, he's a guy with a website. I could have done what Assange did, you could, anyone could

Maybe US government wanted to make Assange look like a bad guy and turn sympathies against him which could have made some more potential sources of information abandon him.
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compensateme
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
Nope, 9/11 was result from centuries of aggressive and ignorant foreign policy committed by US government. It's not like those terrorist attacked US because of religion or because they hated lifestyle in US. No, they attacked because of political reasons, mainly Us messing around in Middle East and supporting Israel.

Also really the war in Afghanistan has done nothing good there, when US forces finally leave I bet it won't take long before Taliban will be in power again. You can't cure violence with more violence.

Centuries? The USA is only 236-years-old, and wasn't involved much in global foreign policy until circa WWI.

Attacking Afghanistan no doubt weakened the Taliban and disrupted additional attacks on the USA. And yes, there's many religious fanatics who wish to push their ways onto society. We even have them in the USA, but at least they're not killing people. Unless you're an abortion doctor, at least.

Regardless, Assange's intentions weren't that of a whistle-blower; he was merely somebody seeking to stir the pot.
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 35):
Centuries? The USA is only 236-years-old, and wasn't involved much in global foreign policy until circa WWI.


Oh my English failed again, I meant decade... For some reason I always mix century and decade...
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized
I mean really this man put on the spotlight some huge war crimes and injustices going on in the world

As for Sweden, I am truly disappointed in them

Sweden regrets your disappointment, or I do anyway.

Aren't his accomplishments blown out of proprtion? Mainly by Assange himself?
...a lot of it was just embarrassing gossip sent back to Washington by ambassadors.
...as for the stuff about the conduct of the military in Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't think it really matters or changes anything.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):

There is no possibility whatever that they are conspiring in some way with the United States.

To be fair, a public or secret backchannel deal is possible after he is on Swedish soil, but almost certainly is not being pre-meditated at this time by the USA or Sweden.

If his accusers are 100% truthful and able to prove it, my best guess is that Assange would get (at worse) a very short term of confinement (weeks) and afterwards some community supervision. More probably, given the difficulties of proof and the apparent backstory of the accusers, he would get off scot free OR be sentenced to face no confinement & get a few months of supervision with electronic monitoring (but no jail.)

Swedish jail = comparable to an Accor hotel (Motel 6 / Formule 1) with free meals, internet, healthcare and job training.

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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 34):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
And what if it's not? Do you have confidence in the Swedish judicial system?

Hard to say, even the best judicial systems do have corruption.

Well what do the Swedes have to gain from all this?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 34):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
Why? To give this guy more publicity? Will planting fake charges on him undo Wikileaks? It's not as if he's a spy that governments need to stop before he gets more information, he's a guy with a website. I could have done what Assange did, you could, anyone could

Maybe US government wanted to make Assange look like a bad guy and turn sympathies against him which could have made some more potential sources of information abandon him.

That doesn't make any sense. Plus why Assange some magic man? These "sources" could easily go to someone else that owns a website.

He released the information. We can give him a mansion... nothing changes. We can ignore him... nothing changes. We can torture him for 20 years... nothing changes. Assange is worthless to the US
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
A doctor can generally determine if antibiotics are needed for a chest infection. A portable x-ray can be taken if desired and the guy can spit in a cup for lab work No special needs at all.

Fair enough, Ken777, I admit that I'm only piecing together and interpreting a few 'key words' culled from the various news reports. You could well be right and I'm over-stating things; but that Ecuadorian official, in particular (see Post 9 above), certainly used words that strongly suggest that, far from preparing for some sort of possible health problem that might arise in the distant future, the Ecuadorians are 'on notice' that there IS a problem which could require immediate hospitalisation. Why else would he talk about 'an ambulance parked outside'? And also an operating theatre unless Assange is 'able to go to a hospital?'

"One thing we have proposed is to have an ambulance parked outside," Patino told the Guardian in an interview in New York. "What we have said, if such a case should happen, we should be ready to install an operating theatre inside the premises, unless Mr Hague responds, as he promised in the next few days, that he [Assange] would be able to go to a hospital."

That's why I used the phrase 'Movement at the Station' in the heading - it comes in the first line of a marvellous poem called 'The Man from Snowy River,' written by a guy named Banjo Patterson, and conveys very well the feeling of incomplete information being 'passed around,' interpreted, and gradually added to. I should perhaps mention that 'station' in this context is Australian for 'ranch':-

"There was movement at the station, for the word had passed around
That the colt from old Regret had got away,
And had joined the wild bush horses -- he was worth a thousand pound,
So all the cracks had gathered to the fray."


http://www.mountainman.com.au/mansnowy.html

[Edited 2012-09-30 20:05:29]
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:06 am

I agree Bradley Manning is a hero too

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
And from my point of view, he is a remarkably naive man. He published state secrets. He may have put lives at risk.

What did he think was going to happen?
Quoting stealthz (Reply 19):

You are an egotistical publicity hound that adds little value to society.

Oh my god. This man exposed war crimes and grave injustices committed by governments and corporations. He was a whistleblower. Is that really how you feel stealthz?

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 21):
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 11):
Why all the negativity toward Julian Assange? This man is a brave hero who many governments and organizations want neutralized.
Then again, some people believe Hitler was a hero too.

Get out of here with that..what are you trying to insinuate?

Quoting pu (Reply 37):

Why can't Sweden come forward and say guarantee that Assange won't see US detention?
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:53 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Why can't Sweden come forward and say guarantee that Assange won't see US detention?

simply because democracy and the division of powers works in Sweden. The judiciary system makes a decision on that, based on the laws, not the government.

OTH, Sweden did not extradite generations of draft dodgers, why should they extradite an Australian national to the US?
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AR385
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:58 am

I do not know of any ethical surgeon that will concede to operate in a "surgical theatre" prepared inside a building that is just an office. The only times things like these are done are during war campaigns near the actual war fronts or during natural catastrophes. This is just press sensationalism or leaks from either side (I don´t know which) to see how the other reacts. Game Theory at its best.

I don´t see any illness, aside from appendicitis or something like that, that would require emergency transport to a hospital on a man Assange´s age.

How bad can it be to be locked inside a building? I don´t buy it´s that bad, if the alternative is prison. He has restaurant food, a Personal Trainer, at least one exercise machine we know of, access to TV, (Sky, Cable?) the internet and I´m sure his supporters are quietly donating money so he can live in relative comfort. Friends even visit him often.

He can´t go outside? Well, too bad. I´m sure he can get by through acquiring (from Sweden, ironically) one of those "sun lamps". You know, the ones popular in the Nordic regions that people get to pass the Winter without getting seasonal depression and offing themselves in one of their wonderful summer cottages up in the woods.

What´s the point of going outside in London from September to May, anyway? Weatherwise it´s just as depressing as staying indoors.

I assume he can also get magic pills, in case he gets deprressed. Those SRIs that do wonders these days. Surely the government of Ecuador can get its hands on a prescription for those and for benzos too, in case he feels anxious?

Occupational therapy is great too. Ecuador ought to put him to work. During normal office hours he can serve coffee, mop the floors, clean the bathrroms, sweep, keep the kitchen spotless, manage the copy machine etc. When there´s a will there´s a way.

And if you think the above was a satire, reflect on the following: People have been known to live in embassies for years (ask any Mexican embassador in Latin America during the 70s), way back when there was no Sky, Cable TV, Internet, Sun lamps, SRIs, Benzos, friends (cause they were dead) or other such niceties that have appeared in the last 3 decades, and survived pretty well. They made themselves useful, hated to be considered a burden and were generally people who made their best of their circumstances.

The only question I have is, what will happen when (and if) there is a change of government in Ecuador?

That´s when he´ll really need those SRI´s and Benzos.

[Edited 2012-10-01 00:15:08]
 
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:41 am

The alternative is not prison, house arrest at worst, usually pre-trial persons are not in prison unless they are dangerous. Until he is convicted he can have restaurant food and everything, only his movements are limited. I doubt that he will be convicted to serve time in Sweden. He rather will be extradited to a country his choice, best for him would be Australia.

But that then would be worse for him because nobody would give him any attention any longer.

.
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:45 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 41):
The judiciary system makes a decision on that, based on the laws, not the government.

Not completely true. Under Swedish law the Supreme Court may rule on whether there is an obstacle to extradition and it may make a decision that allows the Government to grant an extradition request. The law uses the word "may", not "shall". This can not be applied in reverse, so if the Court were to rule that extradition is not permitted the government would be unable to go ahead. The Court can not oblige the government to proceed but it can bar it from so doing. If the Court approves, the final decision is with the Government.

This from the advice of the Dept of Foreign Affairs in Canberra to Stockholm and Washington stations:
"The Swedish Government could deny an extradition or temporary surrender that the Supreme Court had approved, but if the Supreme Court denied an extradition or temporary surrender application, then the matter ended there." (FOI request, 4.5MB, see page 26 of 157 - emphasis added)

[Edited 2012-10-01 02:13:16]
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:37 am

I think what I said was, that the Swedish Government cannot rule the xtradition (to thew USA=) agaoinst bthe Swedish supreme court

the question was:

Quoting P]Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Why can't Sweden come forward and say guarantee that Assange won't see US detention?[/quote]


and my asnwer was


[quote=PanHAM
(Reply 41):
simply because democracy and the division of powers works in Sweden.

and the country in question possibly demanding an extradition was and still is the USA.

I am almost certain that no Swedish government and certainly not the Swedish high court would allow the xtradition to the USA and even if, only under the condition that any punishment shall not be higher than that he would receive in Sweden.

However, in case Assange lands in Sweden , from the UK, and his trial there is completed, i dount that Sweden would grant asylum, Assange would be free to leave to a country his choice.
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Quoting stealthz (Reply 19):

You are an egotistical publicity hound that adds little value to society.

Oh my god. This man exposed war crimes and grave injustices committed by governments and corporations. He was a whistleblower. Is that really how you feel stealthz?

In a word ..Yes

This is also how I feel..

Quoting stealthz (Reply 19):
Don't get me wrong, I think there is a huge opportunity for our governments(all of them) to be more transparent in many of their(our) foreign policy engagements. I am just not convinced that Messers Assange and Manning are best positioned(or qualified) to make that call.

One of the conditions of his asylum in the Ecuadorian Embassy, a condition imposed by the Govt of Equador and outlined in the press conf by the Foreign Minister when announcing the granting of asylum,

Quote:
"We placed the same type of conditions that are the norm in international relations, such as him [Mr Assange] not making political statements that could affect our relations with friendly countries."

Seems on September 26 Mr Assange from his spider hole in London via video link did just that in his address to the UN(why did they even open the forum to him?)
The fact that Ecuador did not throw him out on the street means one of two things, they were lying through their teeth in August or they don't consider the USA a freindly country.

I am of the opinion that the attention seeking Assange was becoming concerned that the firestorm of attention that surronded the information provided by Manning was on the wane and his profile was declining. It seems to me that if this Swedish assault issue and the ensuing extradition fracas had not happened he would have found some other way to stay in the limelight.

And again for thegreatRDU, I think JA is an attention seeking ego maniac who's main talent is as a mediocre low level hacker,
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 39):
You could well be right and I'm over-stating things;

I personally believe that his protectors are over-tating rings. Probably looking for a way to get rid of him.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
I agree Bradley Manning is a hero too

I sure don't.

Maning raised his hand and took the oath and that sort of changes things. Anyone who served can remember that things changed. I sure can.

Basically I consider him a rather stupid guy who was easily talked into breaking the law. In his situation the law he lives under is the UCMJ, but I doubt that Assange gives a dump about that.

Manning should, and probably will, have some prison time, be kicked out of the military on a Dishonorable and will not be ably to receive GI Bill benefits, or vA care. For the rest of his life. That is what Assange did to him.

My hope, therefore, is that Assange gets as many years as Manning.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
I do not know of any ethical surgeon that will concede to operate in a "surgical theatre" prepared inside a building that is just an office. The only times things like these are done are during war campaigns near the actual war fronts or during natural catastrophes.

Agree completely, AR385. I'm no 'medical man,' but my father was. Any medico who sanctioned major abdominal surgery in less than 100% sterile conditions, except in conditions of the gravest emergency, would (rightly) have the whole medical book thrown at him.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
He can´t go outside? Well, too bad. I´m sure he can get by through acquiring (from Sweden, ironically) one of those "sun lamps". You know, the ones popular in the Nordic regions that people get to pass the Winter without getting seasonal depression and offing themselves in one of their wonderful summer cottages up in the woods.

"Dunno' about that, chum.   My 'feeling' - no more than that - is that Assange is basically pretty 'unstable' in mental terms. So that the best option of the various intelligence services (I used to be a member of one of those myself, but only with the rank of 'acting lance-corporal'  ) appears to me to be to 'bide their time.'

Assange can't win this argument. The only question is, at which point of the controversy does he lose? And - harking back to my (totally-inefficient)( service in NATO in the late 1950s - 'Who wins, us (NATO), or the Russians'?

That's probably a pretty old-fashioned viewpoint. But I probably spent more than my fair share of time freezing half to death in FOWs (Forward Observation Posts) opposing the Russians. Enduring rock-bottom 'morale,' like my British and US colleagues.

Most people nowadays tend to think that all that 'Cold War' stuff was just a 'mistake' - I would 'submit' that that is 'less than accurate.' And I'm sure that ('mentally-challenged') idiots like Assange reckon that the notion never had any validity.

Just in my opinion - the Russian threat to Europe in the 1950s/60s was very real. I'm no sort of 'hero' - I could probably qualify as one of the 10% least efficient soldiers NATO ever had - but the fact remains that, way back then, the only people stopping the Russians from taking over Europe were the US and British armies.

[Edited 2012-10-01 10:13:41]
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RE: Julian Assange - 'Movement At The Station'?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Oh my god. This man exposed war crimes and grave injustices committed by governments and corporations. He was a whistleblower.

No he isn't, and no he didn't - what warcrimes and grave injustices did he expose?

He released tens of thousands of documents en mass without a thought to the content of those documents - he didn't vet them, or allow them to be vetted, prior to disclosure so he had no idea what was in them at all. He was grandstanding, nothing more.

In his haste to get his name in the news, he didn't care what he released, so long as he released a lot of it - the manner in which he released the documents could have put real people in serious danger, and indeed has caused a huge amount of international issues since his haphazard mishandling of the documents.

He isn't a whistleblower, he's a media attention whore who saw his chance.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 40):
Why can't Sweden come forward and say guarantee that Assange won't see US detention?

Why should they?

Right now, I don't particularly care about the Swedish accusations, or the chance that he could be extradited to the US - what I do care about is that he has committed real, undeniable crimes on English soil, and in the process insulted the British justice system. I personally hope he serves time in the UK for evading his bail conditions, and his bail fronters lose their £240,000.

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