cmf
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Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:58 am

A Connecticut man responding to his sister's call for help during an apparent burglary at her home next door, shot and killed a masked intruder who turned out to be his own teenage son
Reuters

Another sad example of how the armed self defense mentality cause more sorrow than good. With the many cases too similar to this and the many, many accidental shootings what does it take for the pro gun lobby to accept things must change? That the current "self-defense" mentality is killing and injuring far more people than it is worth. That the loose rules are supplying legally purchased weapons for illegal use.

How many more innocent must get shoot for gun owners, as a group, to become responsible? For the mostly responsible gun owners to accept that the loose rules they advocate carry large responsability in what is happening.
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3DoorsDown
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:23 am

If you are wandering around in the dark with a ski mask on, most likely you are not innocent. You can't fix stupid. However, I think there is more to this story than is being told. But for now, we know what we know.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:32 am

LOL.

You take a story that is so incredibly vague as to what exactly happened, and use it as a justification for yet another anti-gun thread? And then put in a non-sequitor about "legal" guns being "illegally used"?

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
How many more innocent must get shoot

Who said the kid was innocent of anything? From the article:

Quote:
"(He) was lying on the ground in the driveway with obvious gunshot injuries, holding a weapon," the statement said.

Believe it or not, sons and nephews are capable of doing horrific things to family members.


No, this thread is another example of the extreme nature of anti-gun activists, making up stuff about an incident to suit their agenda. Next time, try to stick to the facts.
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pu
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:40 am

My perception is that many in Europe wonder why a vocal portion of the American political identity says nearly nothing about deaths like this or the other ~1000 gun deaths monthly in America
...but goes completely berserk when a US flag is burned or an embassy wall vandelised overseas, in many cases calling for military action. Angry foreigners harms the ego and 12000 dead Americans yearly do not?

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-28 21:41:02]
 
seb146
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:47 am

There are tens of thousands of responsible gun owners in the country. Two things to remember:

1. America has different rules than the rest of the world
2. Guns are also used for getting food.

This is a horrible tragedy. No question. However, there are people in places like Montana, Wyoming, California and all the states who own guns and own them for their own good reasons. Just like fishing rods. Many injuries are caused by fishing rods each year. We need to ban fishing rods. Now! They are evil! No more fishing rods because of all the injuries, right?
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Aeri28
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting pu (Reply 3):

You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.
 
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:54 am

If you look in every monthly issue of American rifleman or American hunter they have a section listing all the news stories of people tat have used firearms n defense.

I bet this dad is kicking himself harder than anybody else here can. I don't think we need to pile on him. Either he shot his son in mistake or his done made a mistake. He is going to have a heavy burden to bear, one that would break a lot of people.
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ALTF4
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):

   - We agree on something  

I'm ok to have tighter gun controls (say, for a concealed carry permit, you must have 15+ hrs of training or something), but I believe our constitution ensures us the right to own guns to keep for ourselves in our house for defense with little to no intrusion.

The flip side of the argument, cmf, is what the hell are people doing when they go on private property with a weapon and a ski mask? I can't think of any reason to do such a thing.
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seb146
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:07 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 7):
what the hell are people doing when they go on private property with a weapon and a ski mask? I can't think of any reason to do such a thing.

This is a horrible thing to say, but when people sneak into a house with a ski mask and gun, what do they expect? Just like: when people buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time, what do they expect?
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:17 am

So the kid runs into a house, the guy's sister calls her brother freaking out, the guy comes in, and shoots the intruder. It's beyond unfortunate that he shot his kid. I couldn't imagine how he felt when he realized who it is. But the problem is he came in with a ski mask on. This kid should have thought before he did it. It's unfortunate it came to that. But this isn't because a lack of gun control laws. If the gun is registered the guy did nothing illegal. The father was protecting his sister against someone he thought was trying to hurt her. If anybody tried to harm my sister I can assure you there would be a similar result.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting pu (Reply 3):

My perception is that many in Europe wonder why a vocal portion of the American political identity says nearly nothing about deaths like this or the other ~1000 gun deaths monthly in America
...but goes completely berserk when a US flag is burned or an embassy wall vandelised overseas, in many cases calling for military action. Angry foreigners harms the ego and 12000 dead Americans yearly do not?

I don't think there are many home-invasion robberies in Europe. It's a bit over the top to claim that there is no outrage about the endless scourge of violent crime in the United States - there is most certainly outrage, but as this problem has continued unabated to one extent or another since the Prohibition era (and arguably far longer even than that), most people are conditioned to the reality that this is part of our daily lives to some extent. Does that mean people should just accept it and not take steps to avoid being victimized?

The structural and cultural changes needed to eliminate serious crime in the US require decades of careful thought and execution and are not a reality any time soon, for anyone. Based on that alone, I would say people can and should protect themselves if they feel it's necessary.

One of the most interesting things about having been an expat for so long in a society with almost zero violent crime is the fact that the moment I am back on US soil, I suddenly become acutely aware of potentially threatening people everywhere I go. This was never the case when I lived in the US before - and is a prime example of the conditioning I mention above.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:49 am

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
How many more innocent must get shoot for gun owners, as a group, to become responsible?

Say what now? How about:

How many more innocent deaths must occur from drunk driving for car owners, as a group, to become responsible?

or

How many more innocent deaths must occur from drowning for swimmers, as a group, to become responsible?

etc....

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
This is a horrible thing to say, but when people sneak into a house with a ski mask and gun, what do they expect?

Not horrible to say at all, and quite true (though it seems we don't know what exactly the son was holding).
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:40 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
How many more innocent deaths must occur from drowning for swimmers, as a group, to become responsible?

Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer, as far as I know. But if they killed innocent bystanders, your point would be more persuasive.
..
But your point about drunk driving IS very persuasive. You could say in some sense all drivers ARE held financially responsible because we all participate in shared risk, called insurance premiums, whether we ever drunk drive or not. But, if you could somehow identify all drunk drivers, perhaps with an onboard car breathalyzer at ignition, it would be fair to make them pay for all drunk driving deaths, I feel.

Pu
 
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:53 am

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer, as far as I know. But if they killed innocent bystanders, your point would be more persuasive.

Ha, wow, reading over my post and remembering my frame of thought when I wrote it, I clearly lost the point with the 2nd example. So you're correct, not persuasive.

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
But, if you could somehow identify all drunk drivers, perhaps with an onboard car breathalyzer at ignition, it would be fair to make them pay for all drunk driving deaths, I feel.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. But we wouldn't take away every driver's license.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:13 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
But we wouldn't take away every driver's license

Ok.
But cars do in fact require licenses to use.
Guns don't.
And I actually don't think the non-gun-loving liberals really give a damn if everyone in rural America has a gun, hunts with it or just shoots targets for fun.
.
The real problem is in the cities where all the gun violence occurs. So you have all the liberals in the cities who hate guns anyway, being terrorised by a small criminal minority in the cities who have their right to own guns aggressively defended by law abiding suburbanites and rural folks, who have very little if any gun violence around. Thats why Chicago banned guns, and Chicagoans were happy about it.
.
Just my observation.

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DeltaMD90
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Just like: when people buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time, what do they expect?

I'm tired of these gun threads and wasn't going to respond, but surprisingly we agreed on most your points!  Wow!

I only disagree on this point ^^ what I expect when I get thousands of rounds is cheaper rounds. When I bought rounds for my Mosin-Nagant and rounds for my SKS, the former rounds aren't even sold in most stores and the latter are but for a much higher price than online bulk. I ordered a crate of ammo each, giving me about 2000 rounds each, but that doesn't mean I have all these rounds lying around and I'm dying to use them up on my roommate if he comes home later than I expect. These crates have (CHEAPLY) lasted a couple years so far. In the long run it'll save me hundreds of dollars.

While I don't deny there are the 'militia' folk out there that have a bunch of rounds ready for when the "guvment" comes and does whatever they think the evil government is gonna do, just ask normal gun owners who order thousands of rounds at a time why they do it. I'd bet $5 almost all would say either "cheaper in bulk" or "don't feel like constantly ordering more rounds" (because contrary to popular belief on this site, a gun owner and several of his friends can easily go through a few thousand rounds in a couple hours without being a terrorist)
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 14):
being terrorised by a small criminal minority in the cities who have their right to own guns aggressively defended


Criminals do not have the right to own guns. Here is the problem. I believe that we should have some stricter gun control laws but I also believe law abiding citizens who pass stricter background test, safety test, shooting test etc.. should be allowed to carry a gun on them concealed. The real problem is criminals do not care about the law. It is already illegal for them to have a gun but they do not care. And no matter what the laws are they will find guns. As long as it is easy for criminals to get guns we should allow good citizens to protect themselves.

We need to work hard on taking the guns away from the criminals. Maybe if we spent more money on guns and less on non-harmful drugs like marijuana we could get something done.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):

A Connecticut man responding to his sister's call for help during an apparent burglary at her home next door, shot and killed a masked intruder who turned out to be his own teenage son

Sounds like a Darwin Award to me.

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work 

You could look at it as an example of how it DOES work. It deleted a particularly stupid element from the gene pool, thus improving it. If we get rid of most/all safety regulations maybe after a few generations there won't be any morons left.

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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 1):
You can't fix stupid.

You can't fix dead either.

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 1):
However, I think there is more to this story than is being told.

Like if the father had the sense to say "Stop or I'll Shoot" first...

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 5):
You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.

Hope that works out better for you than it did for this father and son.

I've heard it said many times that one the most painful things ever is to deal with the death of a child.

Can you imagine if it was you who killed your own son?

Nah, don't worry about that, just shoot first and ask questions later.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
I only disagree on this point

I guess, having grown up in hunting country, I don't understand the point of buying semi-automatic or automatic weapons and buying 10,000 rounds of ammo a week. It seems like a waste to me. Plus, I don't see any good reason why people need semi- or automatic weapons. A collecter can have a pass. I guess an older hunter who can't aim as well anymore. But, someone living in the middle of a huge city? Why do they need semi- or automatic weapons?
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Why do they need semi- or automatic weapons?

People don't "need" semi- or automatic weapons. I don't feel like going down this road again. Maybe shooting is your cup of tea but I'm sure you understand the concept of buying bulk
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 12):
Drowning swimmers generally kill only the drowning swimmer,

I see it is unlikely that you have ever taken a water safety course or been a lifeguard.

Drowning swimmers are incredibly dangerous to rescuers. They instinctively want to climb on top of the rescuer to hold themselves higher in the water. Which of course pushes the rescuer deep underwater.

Probably half or more of the people trying to help drowning swimmers are actually killed by the person they are trying to rescue if the rescuer does not have proper training.

When trying to help someone in distress in the water, approach from behind them, keep them in a position where their hand cannot grab you, and if they do, dive deep to make them release you. It is often much safer to let them pass out and then bring them to a location where they can be revived.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
I don't think there are many home-invasion robberies in Europe.

You are correct, but there are far fewer such robberies in the US than many people think.

The odds are significantly higher that a 'home invasion' is going to be someone you know - as in this case - than an actual stranger.

Even with the home invasion possibility - keeping a gun in your home increases the likelyhood of a death or injury due to gunshot from an accident, or angry relative.

Keeping a gun in your home never increases your safety - unless you live in certain neighborhoods with very high crime occurences.

Yes, I have a gun in my home. Because I got it for Christmas when I was 10. I haven't hunted in over 40 years. All of my family have guns, except for the brother who lives in Houston.

One brother who lives on a rural farm in Arkansas has had his home broken into and guns stolen once, they were unable to get into his gun safe the second time.

They never pinned down who did the break-ins - but are 100% certain it was someone he knows who had been invited into the home at least once in the past.

Stranger on Stranger crime in the US is actually a very low percentage of our shootings.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
If you look in every monthly issue of American rifleman or American hunter they have a section listing all the news stories of people tat have used firearms n defense.

And unfortunately both have been legitimately criticized for the way they write up the incidents. They try to avoid mentioning the previous links between the victim and criminal. A great many of the 'self defense' incidents involve other members of the defender's family or his/her acquaintances.

[Edited 2012-09-29 09:45:34]
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 5):
You try coming into my home uninvited at 3:00 am wearing a ski mask. I ll ask questions later.

Chances are still higher that you'll shoot an innocent relative, a friend or a neighbor than a criminal. Your mind is primed to defend yourself, not to make sure who you are shooting at.

Such tragedies will happen with or without the killed wearing a ski mask.

The scenario I have much trouble with:

Your wife leaves the bed at 2 AM because she has to visit the toilet, or she has trouble sleeping, and so she is bustling around in the apartment with the room lights switched off in order not to disturb your sleep. You're waking up, hearing the noises, but not realizing that your wife isn't in your bed anymore... and you approach her with a drawn handgun.

Upon seeing you ready to shoot, I don't think she'll see you as her husband either. The words "Hi, it's just me!" are out of her mind.

Bang, bang.


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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):

That's a sad turn of events and one I don't ever want to be a part of. And as such, I neither walk around wearing a ski mask in the wee hours nor do I own a gun. Problem solved.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Hope that works out better for you than it did for this father and son.

Maybe it worked out exactly the way it should have. Maybe the good guy did win and the son was out for trouble and would have done violence to the aunt and/or father. We don't and probably won't know.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 21):
Keeping a gun in your home never increases your safety

We'll disagree here.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
but I'm sure you understand the concept of buying bulk

Of course he does because he went from:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
buy 10,000 rounds of ammo at a time

to:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
buying 10,000 rounds of ammo a week

That does change the discussion a little bit.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
A collecter can have a pass

Why is a collector any more special than me? Hell, I can just as easily call myself a collector. I have a collection of firearms.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
A collecter can have a pass

Why is a collector any more special than me? Hell, I can just as easily call myself a collector. I have a collection of firearms.

I was gonna argue that (since I have an interest in antique Soviet firearms) but you have to take babysteps with him. He obviously enjoys (or at least experienced) hunting so he can see why people enjoy that, so maybe he can figure people enjoy target shooting and the like. But I've explained that before so I just stuck with the "buying stuff in bulk" argument because that's something at least everyone understands (I think)
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
Maybe it worked out exactly the way it should have. Maybe the good guy did win and the son was out for trouble and would have done violence to the aunt and/or father. We don't and probably won't know.

Right, the son is too dead to tell us what he was thinking, so the father will just have to wonder what was on the son's mind for the rest of his life.

Personally, I'm thinking the father wished he didn't kill his own son, and chances are pretty good that some better way of dealing with the son's problems other than shooting him dead was possible, but feel free to think otherwise.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:27 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
Personally, I'm thinking the father wished he didn't kill his own son,

I would agree. I can't imagine what it would be like to kill my child. But, then again, I can't imagine why my son would be coming out of someone else's home, wearing a ski mask, holding a weapon and failing to stop what he was doing the instant he saw me, especially knowing that there would be a high probability that I was armed.

Methinks there is much more to this story.
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seb146
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:57 pm

There are people (on this board, for example) who buy rounds in bulk and use them for target practice. A waste, I think, but not the point. If you have that much free time and money, fine.

However, the people I have a problem with are the ones who buy 10,000 rounds a week but don't use them. Yet. Just like those who have caches of weapons. There are those who collect them and show them off as "Look what I got!" And then there are those who have caches of weapons because the gub'mint is gonna storm through the land taking the guns! Those are the same people who buy 10,000 rounds a week but don't use them.

An analogy from my life it: I collect shot glasses. Yet, I don't drink hard liquor. Tequila in a margarita sometimes, but that's about it. Should it be a huge red flag to MADD and AA and the like that I have 100+ shot glasses? Or, would it be a huge red flag for the person who goes to the liquor store three or four times a day?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:43 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
However, the people I have a problem with are the ones who buy 10,000 rounds a week but don't use them. Yet. Just like those who have caches of weapons. There are those who collect them and show them off as "Look what I got!" And then there are those who have caches of weapons because the gub'mint is gonna storm through the land taking the guns! Those are the same people who buy 10,000 rounds a week but don't use them.

   Thank you sir.

I'll add that not only would I not mind more stringent checks on me and my weapons, I think it would be a very good idea. Measures to allow good, law abiding citizens the freedom to do what they want but effective measures to keep them from unstable people. I think that is a stance most people can agree on
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:22 am

Gun violence is an everyday thing here in America...
But I truly believe were not getting the full story and the police seemed like they came to a conclusion very quickly too

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
Just like fishing rods. Many injuries are caused by fishing rods each year. We need to ban fishing rods. Now! They are evil! No more fishing rods because of all the injuries, right?

What the? This is way over the top and too simplistic
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Methinks there is much more to this story.
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 30):
But I truly believe were not getting the full story

There's always more to the story, but not sure how it'd justify what happened.

I've googled the victim's name, and based on my reading of several different articles, I have found:

> It was 1AM and outdoors so it was dark
> The kid was wearing dark clothes, had on a dark ski mask, and was carrying a knife
> The knife hasn't been been described
> The father states the son lunged at him with the knife
> Nothing has been released to say if that was the extent of the outdoor confrontation
> The father didn't know it was his son till the police took off the kid's mask
> Nothing has been released to say if the police were called before the killing
> A friend says the son was online playing video games till 10PM and was acting normally
> It is said that the son had a previous argument with the aunt
> The town where this happened, New Fairfield CT, is affluent
> Pictures of the location where this occurred show it is an affluent area
> A town resident had recently walked in on a burglar so tensions were elevated
> The son was adopted by the father
> The father is a very popular teacher in town
> The father had previously been the son's teacher before adopting him
> The son's natural mother is a drug addict and has a criminal past
> The natural mother had a car accident while on crack which killed her daughter
> The son was raised by his natural grandparents before being adopted
> The son loved aviation, was a member of the Civil Air Patrol and wanted to join the Air Force
> There is no indication the son had a criminal past or was a troublemaker
> His fellow students are describing him as a normal, likeable kid
> The father had a background in security
> It is not known yet if the gun was legally registered

Clearly some here are of the "shoot first, ask questions later" camp, but not me.

A key question in my mind is WTF the father felt he was qualified to deal with the situation.

Wouldn't a better answer been to call the police and have the sister barricade herself till the cops could get there?

Clearly all we have is the version of events being told by the father, so we'll never know if things played out as he states.
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting cmf (Thread starter):
How many more innocent must get shoot for gun owners

That, sadly, is an American tradition.

I first encountered it when I was in the 5th grade - a kid in my class lost his 13 year old brother in an accident with an "unloaded gun".

It simply is part of how this country functions and our Second Amendment.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
There are tens of thousands of responsible gun owners in the country.

No doubt about that. That, however, mean that they cannot have an accident.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
Two things to remember:

1. America has different rules than the rest of the world
2. Guns are also used for getting food.

America has very different rules. I can't see many civilized countries where you see pick-up trucks with gun mounts on the back window. Or conservative politicians pushing for "open carry" laws where folks wear guns on their hips - just like cowboys in Old West.

As for guns used to get food - my bet is that more people are shot every year than deer.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
A key question in my mind is WTF the father felt he was qualified to deal with the situation.

Wouldn't a better answer been to call the police and have the sister barricade herself till the cops could get there?

It's not as if intruders call and make an appointment, so that you are sure to be in a securable area of the house when they come. If their house is anything like mine, the whole house is wide open, no place to hide except for the bedrooms (where I spend maybe 5-6 hours per day max). And even if you lock yourself in, ever take a look at typical US home construction? Interior doors are extremely easy to break open, (especially with a reverse kick)

And then you have the comparative response times. It can take 5-10 minutes for the cops to arrive, perhaps more.

Which reminds me of a story:

Quote:
George Phillips of Meridian, Mississippi was going up to bed when his wife told him that he'd left the light on in the garden shed, which she could see from the bedroom window.

George opened the back door to go turn off the light but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things.

He phoned the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?" and he said "no". Then they said that all patrols were busy, and that he should simply lock his door and an officer would be along when available. George said, "Okay," hung up, counted to 30, and phoned the police again.

"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people stealing things from my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I've just shot them." Then he hung up.

Within five minutes three police cars, an Armed Response Unit, and an ambulance showed up at the Phillips' residence and caught the burglars red-handed.

One of the Policemen said to George: "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"

George said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"
http://www.snopes.com/crime/safety/response.asp

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
As for guns used to get food - my bet is that more people are shot every year than deer.

We would be in a war zone. White-tailed deer account 6 million of the 200 million animals killed yearly by hunters, 50 million morning doves. Then you have all the other types of deer, ducks, geese etc.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
> It was 1AM and outdoors so it was dark
> The kid was wearing dark clothes, had on a dark ski mask, and was carrying a knife
> The knife hasn't been been described
> The father states the son lunged at him with the knife

Uh this case is probably the WORST example to use to restrict guns.

"The kid wearing a ski mask lunged at the dad with a knife in the middle of the night... ban guns" ??
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
ALTF4
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
"The kid wearing a ski mask lunged at the dad with a knife in the middle of the night... ban guns" ??

I've seen some non sequiturs on here, but that one really did leave me scratching my head.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
Ken777
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
We would be in a war zone.

Go to some inner city hospitals in large US cities and you'll come away thinking we are.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
Uh this case is probably the WORST example to use to restrict guns.

"The kid wearing a ski mask lunged at the dad with a knife in the middle of the night... ban guns" ??

I think it's quite the opposite. Here's a man presumably confident that his gun ownership is finally paying off and that he has every justification in the world to blast away, yet he's proven wrong.

As above, you can't fix dead.

[Edited 2012-09-30 13:18:00]
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):

I guess we'll have to disagree. It's not like those situations where some person (idiot) sees a dark figure in the kitchen in the middle of the night, shoots it without confirming anything, and it turns out to be his/her son sneaking out. This guy had a masked figure come at him with a knife in the middle of the night! How do we even know if the son wasn't going kill the father with a knife anyway? I mean he was already being shady, breaking into a house with a knife, who knows that this kid's intentions were. You don't really have time to think about that when you're getting lunged at with a knife...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
kingairta
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:33 pm

I have a variety of fire arms from single shot bolt action to a semi auto AR15. What do I need an AR15 for? Because I like making holes in paper. I like hearing bullets go ping as they dance off of a steel target. What does it matter why I want one. The law says I can own one so I do. It is no different then buying a high performance race bike to ride to work when a moped would do the same. As for buying ammo in bulk. Well yesterday at the range my family shot over 400 rounds between two guns. And we would have shot more had we brought more ammo. We go through 400-500 rounds a weekend. Buying in bulk helps my pocket book not just cheaper by the round but cheaper on fuel from having to go to the store to get ammo everytime I want to shoot.

People don't need to understand why I want. Just respect the fact that what I do I do inside the law and don't let the criminals ruin it for me. Just because the law says you can't have a certain weapon doesn't mean Jack squat to the criminal.

Chicago and DC have strick gun laws yet there continues to be gun violence. Seams like those laws work real well.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:53 pm

We need more education about guns and the responsibility of gun use for than anything else.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
Two things to remember:

1. America has different rules than the rest of the world
2. Guns are also used for getting food.

America has very different rules. I can't see many civilized countries where you see pick-up trucks with gun mounts on the back window.

Switzerland has more lax gun laws than the US yet nowhere near the gun problems, again, education is the problem, not guns.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
This guy had a masked figure come at him with a knife in the middle of the night!

We're really not sure what happened. All we have is one side of a story, from a person who had every motivation to put himself in the best possible light, and no one to challenge his version of events. We do know the father put himself into the middle of this situation. It is being said the father had a background in security, but that's all we know so far.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
How do we even know if the son wasn't going kill the father with a knife anyway?

We don't know if the son intended to kill the father or the aunt, or if we was just out to scare them, and I doubt we ever will, unless we find out the kid left a note or something.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
We're really not sure what happened.

Well true. Assuming his story is true, I view it about the same as a guy that points a fake gun at a cop and gets shot and killed. Maybe the cop wasn't actually in danger but he was justified to shoot. I can't fault the guy for shooting his son even if the son wasn't going to harm anyone because the only information the father had was "holy crap a guy with a knife lunging at me BAM"

If we said this guy didn't have a gun, well just put him in a scenario where the masked person isn't the son and really does want to kill the father--dead. There are plenty of cases that makes gun-ownership look bad, I just don't think this is one of them, as sadly as this turned out
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Kiwirob
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
The son loved aviation, was a member of the Civil Air Patrol and wanted to join the Air Force

Probably a pretty good chance he was a member of a.net.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 40):
Switzerland has more lax gun laws than the US yet nowhere near the gun problems, again, education is the problem, not guns.

No, buying and owning guns is more difficult here. And crimes committed using a firearm are rare, thankfully.

1. Although servicemen (and -women) can take their assault rifles home, they have to hand in the pocket ammunition and the breech.

2. The laws on carrying guns are very strict. It is difficult to legally carry your gun outside of your apartment - you need a permit, and in order to get one, you need training and a reason to carry a gun. You'll probably get one if you work for a security firm.

3. For every weapons purchase, you need a permit, though you only have to be at least 18 years old and have a clean criminal record.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
We're really not sure what happened.

No we don't know what happened. But, absent any evidence to the contrary, we have to take the father at his word, don't we? Innocent until proven guilty...and all that stuff. The killing should be thoroughly investigated and the father prosecuted, if warranted by the investigation. But, the father should not be persecuted because he happened to kill his son.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
We don't know if the son intended to kill the father or the aunt, or if we was just out to scare them, and I doubt we ever will, unless we find out the kid left a note or something.

And, getting shot is a risk that you take when you brandish a weapon in an attempt scare someone.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
2. The laws on carrying guns are very strict.

As they are here as well, one also requires a permit to purchase a weapon and go through various bureaucratic hoops and paperwork.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
And crimes committed using a firearm are rare, thankfully.

My point exactly. Perhaps saying they're more lax was disingenuous, but gun laws in Switzerland in the US are VERY comparable and you all have nowhere near the gun issues. IMO it comes down to education, public education or education in general in Switzerland far outclasses the US by a large degree, so I believe the problem here in the US isn't that we let our citizens own guns, but that we have a bunch of uneducated or unstable people with guns. It's important to keep in mind however that no amount of gun restrictions will deter some one with truly murderous intentions, I think Anders Breivik proved that.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
1. Although servicemen (and -women) can take their assault rifles home, they have to hand in the pocket ammunition and the breech.

Say what? I hope this is a misunderstanding. I served in the Swiss army, and you took your rifle home with you, fully functional, and with 100 rounds of ammo in cans (they look like big cans of Spam) which were subject to inspection - you were only supposed to open them in case of mobilization.

Are you telling me that now they go home with a useless gun? Why even bother?

By the way, i recall one incident of a Swiss guy going postal and using his military rifle - in Zug if I recall about 10 years ago, where he shot up some politicians and then himself. I'm not really sure if shooting politicians should really be considered a crime, but had he lived he would have been in deep crap simply for use of military hardware for non-sanctioned use - never mind everything else.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
As they are here as well, one also requires a permit to purchase a weapon and go through various bureaucratic hoops and paperwork.

When purchasing weapons, the conditions are comparable, but you need a permit for concealed carry in most states, and it is subject to certain conditions:

"Typical permit requirements include residency, minimum age, submitting fingerprints, passing a computerized instant background check (or a more comprehensive manual background check), attending a certified handgun/firearm safety class, passing a practical qualification demonstrating handgun proficiency, and paying a required fee. These requirements vary widely by jurisdiction, with some having few or none of these and others having most or all."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceal...y_in_the_United_States#Shall-Issue

If these are the average conditions for a CCW permit in the U.S., the conditions are much more conservative here in Switzerland. To carry a weapon openly or in a concealed manner, you need to demonstrate a reason to do so. Do you need to work in a security firm in order to get a carry permit in the U.S.? Do you need to protect sensitive buildings, or do you need to be a bodyguard, in order to get a CCW license?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
but that we have a bunch of uneducated or unstable people with guns.

I think this is one part of the problem, the people having the guns in their hands. But you can tackle almost everything using different strategies, and you have to think which is the most effective one. People like Anders Breivik will always find a way around the laws, but every measure that keeps the number of guns low already helps IMHO. If you think people are uneducated or unstable, how can you amend this? Shell out some billions for better education, and subsidize psychological counseling for unstable persons?


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
flymia
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RE: Another Example Why US Gun Mentality Doesn't Work

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
A key question in my mind is WTF the father felt he was qualified to deal with the situation.

Wouldn't a better answer been to call the police and have the sister barricade herself till the cops could get there?


If a love one, especially a female loved one told me a man with a knife was in the home or approaching their home and I was able to respond with a firearm I am not waiting for the police. I would certainly call the police and not go into the situation trigger happy but no one is getting stab or let alone hurt if I can help it. Besides for the intruder.
Your wife, mother, sister calls that there is a man trying to get into their home with a weapon or even without a weapon you are going to tell them hide and wait 5 minutes for the police? That would be fine if you did not have something to protect yourself. Even then if would be hard to only call the police. Especially in rural areas where response time can be well over 5 minutes.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
> The father states the son lunged at him with the knife


If this is true then its justified. A knife is a deadly weapon. Someone lunging at you with a knife is attempted murder. Why would the son do this is my question? Sadly we will never know. Mental illness is always possible.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
I think it's quite the opposite. Here's a man presumably confident that his gun ownership is finally paying off and that he has every justification in the world to blast away, yet he's proven wrong.

As above, you can't fix dead.


No one should go into a situation like that thinking "my guns are finally paying off." That is where education on gun ownership needs to come in which I agree with many is no where near the level it needs to be in the United States. Whether we know if this man did this or not who knows. I doubt he did but its possible.
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