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DocLightning
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Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:41 am

Most of the lighting in our house is CFL. I have to say that I like CFL's. They make a very nice, soft light that is visually indistinguishable from an incandescent, but yet somehow a bit softer, with less sharp shadows. They're also somewhat bulky, take forever to get up to full light intensity (our front porch light takes ten minutes), and break easily. I also have colored accent CFL uplights in every corner behind my plants, throwing crazy shadows onto the ceiling when the lights are off. I like the purity of the light a colored CFL makes. Also, while some do come dimmable, they are finicky to dim.

I have a few LED's. They make fantastic light (the good [read expensive] ones do), turn on instantly, have amazing energy efficiency, often come dimmable, and last forever. All my LED house lights are on dimmer switches and they are amazing. They are a touch bigger (usually length) than their incandescent counterparts. I really like them and I'd honestly love to use them in every light in my house except they're so expensive! That would be a $1,000 commitment to a rental home. Not a bright idea. (Pardon the pun)

What do you like in your home?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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TSS
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:30 am

Because of concerns over the mercury content of CFL bulbs, I'm still using incandescent bulbs in my home except for one CFL in the kitchen that was here when I moved in. I use 75w bulbs in my lamps, 40w bulbs in the triple-bulb overhead fixtures, and 25w bulbs in the two quadruple-bulb bathroom fixtures.

Like Doc Lightning, I'd prefer to go with all LED lights but they're just too expensive at present.
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comorin
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
They make a very nice, soft light that is visually indistinguishable from an incandescent, but yet somehow a bit softer, with less sharp shadows

1. You should change your name to DocLighting.

2. I have been lurking in India the last few months and the CFLs you get here tend to be blue-ish (6500K) - what color temperature are your CFLs? I can't stand the 'cool' tones - reminds me of the tube lights of the 50's. I did find CFLs with great difficultly that were warmer, but 2750K is too yellow.

So LEDs are the way to go, you think?


Thanks
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:38 am

I have a mix of lighting types in my home. I have an old-style long fluorescent tube lights in the (1980's vintage) built-in kitchen ceiling fixture, a couple of small incandescent bulbs in the dining room fixture, a red CFL in the hallway ceiling fixture (so not to wake anyone else in the apartment when turned on in the middle of the night for a bathroom trip - my friend sings "Roxanne" whenever I turn it on!), an LED light in the bathroom, and a handpainted incandescent bulb in the floor lamp in the living room (for some relaxing mood lighting) - along with CFLs in the end table lamps and CFLs in the lamps in the bedrooms. My adjustable height desk lamp has a super bright LED bulb in it.

An eco-friendly friend of mine gave me a box of a dozen CFL lights from Cosco when I moved into this space as a housewarming gift, and he then proceeded to change out the incandescent bulbs throughout the apartment for me - which was pretty awesome!   
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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Aesma
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:48 am

All CFL here, incandescent aren't available anymore in the EU.

The few old CFL I still have that have years on them (proving they're as durable as advertised) do indeed take forever to get to full brightness and I should replace them. The newer ones are good, I have mostly "solar yellow" ones. LEDs should be great to replace halogen spots but outside the bathroom I don't use those. For normal bulbs replacement they have to put tons of LEDs in one "bulb" since they only shine in one direction, that's hardly economical.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I have to say that I like CFL's.

I love innovation and trying out new things, but I just can't get used to appearance of CFL bulbs in normal lampshades, unless they are disguised to look like incandescent ones. The only time I'll use them otherwise is inside opaque lampshades.

In the kitchen I have two tracks of halogen bulbs, which is a bitch as they don't have a great life cycle, for some reason. I tried using LEDs, but they were the same and I thought the light was harsh and cold. For dinner parties I'll use only candles and night-lights, which are always great for atmosphere.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
They make a very nice, soft light that is visually indistinguishable from an incandescent, but yet somehow a bit softer, with less sharp shadows.

No the light they make is very different, I would use Osram Halogen Energy Saver Lamps, they give an excellent natural light, they have a very long life, they use significantly less energy than incandescent, and are dimmable.


Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 5):
In the kitchen I have two tracks of halogen bulbs, which is a bitch as they don't have a great life cycle, for some reason.

You must have some problems with the power in your home, I've got 40 or so 50w halogen spots in my home, they have all been installed over the past 5 years, I've not had a single one blow. I love the spots, they are all on dimmer switches, the light is fantastic.

The big problem with LEDS at the moment is heat, they run very very hot and need careful heat management, not hot to touch from the front all the heat goes out the back, that's why I would only buy LEDS from Osram, Philips, and GE.
 
Klaus
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:01 am



Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
For normal bulbs replacement they have to put tons of LEDs in one "bulb" since they only shine in one direction, that's hardly economical.

Why not? Each LED is a very small, almost point-shaped light source. One very strong LED would still cast rather sharp shadows which is generally not desirable, so you can either put a diffusor over it (which reduces overall efficiency) or simply use several smaller LEDs in a "bulb" which can keep the efficiency higher, distribute the light source a bit and evade the cooling problems a single LED usually produces.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 5):
In the kitchen I have two tracks of halogen bulbs, which is a bitch as they don't have a great life cycle, for some reason. I tried using LEDs, but they were the same

Halogen spots produce a lot of light from a very small bulb, but they get very hot doing it.

LEDs waste less energy through heat, but they still get hot, and they are much more susceptible to damage from it. Your LED spots were probably not cooled properly and died from overheating.

In many cases you cannot just switch out halogen for LEDs.

LEDs are better suited for entire strips of multiple LEDs instead of only a few very bright spots.

Another thing to be aware of is that LEDs should not be driven by AC, not even just by rectified but unfiltered AC – actually filtered DC (switched at high frequency for dimming) is much preferable because LEDs have no inertia.

You would get a "strobe light" effect otherwise, much more so than with conventional bulbs, which mostly filter out AC components through their sheer inertia.

[Edited 2012-09-30 02:11:01]
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:35 am

I try to use as many incandescent as I can. I never found CFLs to be an adequate replacement.

Yes, they consume more, but are a better fit in transiently lit places like the bathroom. CFLs (or rather the electronics inside them) don't like cycles. I have yet to be convinced the energy savings is not cancelled by their price, the environmental impact of their manufacturing and discarding and the 'not as long as advertised' longevity.

Incandescent do waste a lot of energy through heat, but then I do have to heat the place up for 6 months of the year...

We can't buy them anymore around here so I guess it's moot. I'm switching to a mix of CFL, neon and halogen depending on the use of each light.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 8):
I try to use as many incandescent as I can. I never found CFLs to be an adequate replacement.

You should consider using halogen energy saver bulbs, they are a direct replacement for the classic incandescent bulb but with much longer life and lower energy consumption, they also look pretty much the same.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
You must have some problems with the power in your home, I've got 40 or so 50w halogen spots in my home, they have all been installed over the past 5 years
Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
LEDs waste less energy through heat, but they still get hot, and they are much more susceptible to damage from it. Your LED spots were probably not cooled properly and died from overheating

I'll have to get it investigated: I remember posting a thread on it here several years ago but got no conclusive answer. It's an old house, but I had it completely re-wired 40 years ago.
 
Klaus
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:15 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 10):
I'll have to get it investigated: I remember posting a thread on it here several years ago but got no conclusive answer. It's an old house, but I had it completely re-wired 40 years ago.

I doubt the wiring is the problem; As long as there are no substantial voltage spikes (which is relatively unlikely), external factors are probably not the cause.

Halogen lighting is just completely different from LED lighting in its heat and light distribution if each is designed properly.

LED lighting ideally would use more distributed LED strips with many separate LEDs instead of only a few intense spots as usual with halogen. This way each LED runs much cooler (because the heat is distributed over a much larger area) and lives much longer than only a few very bright LEDs which run very hot if they have no additional cooling and then suffer reduced lifespans.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
I doubt the wiring is the problem; As long as there are no substantial voltage spikes (which is relatively unlikely), external factors are probably not the cause.

That's interesting Klaus. I don't have a problem with any of the other electrics in the house at all. Seeing that I've had the problem with both halogen and LED bulbs, maybe it's time to buy some new light fittings using CFL bulbs. I've been keeping any eye out for something suitable for a while now without success. I have a fair idea of what I want, but not having much success in finding them. There was one in Ikea that came close, but I want to be completely happy with whatever I go for.
 
Klaus
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:08 pm

The thing is that LED lighting changes not just the light source, but it also changes how lamps should be designed at all. There are 1:1 replacements, but not for every kind of use. Good LED lighting works differently than incandescent or CFL lighting does. Which are already not 1:1 replacements of each other - even just halogen lamps already drive different designs than regular bulbs, and so do LEDs.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
You should consider using halogen energy saver bulbs, they are a direct replacement for the classic incandescent bulb but with much longer life and lower energy consumption, they also look pretty much the same.

I am. That's what I clumsily meant by 'halogen'.
They're still way more expensive than a regular incandescent bulb and I haven't made the calculation but given they're only about 15-20% more efficient than an incandescent the price difference, I'm not completely convinced they're really a smarter choice than Edison's originals...

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
LED lighting ideally would use more distributed LED strips with many separate LEDs instead of only a few intense spots as usual with halogen.

Exactly. If you concentrate anything above a handful of watts of LED power in a single compact source, you need a massive radiator to keep it cool... The lighting setup of new build houses will have to be radically different.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 5):
In the kitchen I have two tracks of halogen bulbs, which is a bitch as they don't have a great life cycle, for some reason.

Do you have MR16 lamps? They don't have a great life. There are some good LED replacements out there but none that will match output if you're currently using 50w. Philips do a 10w which is close to 35w equivalent.

We have a mixture of incandescent, CFL & LED. As with all technologies buy the good brands otherwise you'll get crappy product. GE, Osram Sylvania, Philips, TCP and CREE (LED) are all good.

I recently did a kitchen renovation and installed CREE CR6 LED fixtures in 6" recessed cans - they're awesome. Great light, dimmable and very efficient. I would definitely recommend LED fixtures over LED screw-ins if you have 6" cans. LED trim fixtures are designed specifically for cans so all the light exits whee it should, whereas LED screw-ins aren't so waste a lot of light in the can itself. They're expensive but worth it.
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rfields5421
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:28 pm

My kitchen has six bright spot lights. I moved from incandescent to CFL and eventually to LED.

It makes a noticable improvement in the light, and the electric bill.

We have a lot of CFL around the house, a few incandescent, and use LED reading lights.

I don't worry about the mercury content in CFL. On the overall scale of risks in a typical home - it is way, way down the list. Far below cigarette smoking (which my daughter does - who won't use CFL bulbs in her home because of the risk).

The one problem I have with CFL bulbs is that they are not available in certain color temperature ranges. In my model railroad, and a couple other places - I want a very specific color temp for the light. Incandescent gives me the most flexibility, though I vastly prefer flourescent when possible to do lower energy usage and heat generation.
 
Klaus
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
I don't worry about the mercury content in CFL. On the overall scale of risks in a typical home - it is way, way down the list. Far below cigarette smoking (which my daughter does - who won't use CFL bulbs in her home because of the risk).

When they are operating, the mercury will be in vapour form. If the glass breaks in that state you'll have a major contamination event – particularly if you breathe it in. That can be very unhealthy including long-term damage, a lot more than "just" smoking cigarettes, which is bad enough by itself.

Recycling is also a major issue since the mercury is effectively toxic waste which is difficult to recycle from (C)FLs. LEDs are not entirely environment-friendly through their entire life cycle either, but at least they're not directly toxic.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 14):
I'm not completely convinced they're really a smarter choice than Edison's originals...

Problem is in Europe you can't buy Edison's originals anymore so halogen energy savers are you only real choice.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 14):


Exactly. If you concentrate anything above a handful of watts of LED power in a single compact source, you need a massive radiator to keep it cool... The lighting setup of new build houses will have to be radically different.

There in lies the problem, most light's on sale today are still designed with traditional lighting methods in mind, when you convert these to LED they generally don't work very well.

A really good example of a floodlight designed specifically for LED is the Glamox FX60. The back is a completely open heatsink



Compared to a traditional halogen or high pressure sodium like the GFX

http://www.jgarraio.pt/images/produtos/comercial/equipamentos_iluminacao_maritima/projectores_para_atmosferas_explosivas/norselight/eexd/16199.jpg


It's a completely different design philosophy, the GFX could have been converted to LED but it would have been compromised. The best advantage of LED is the ability to work in cold temperatures, the FX60 is certified for use to -50 whereas the GFX is limited to -30.
 
planejamie
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:47 pm

I have 8x LED spots in my bathroom, they essentially replaced Halogen fittings (albeit a completely rewired system, not just a bulb replacement) and I've had no problems with heat at all, I can leave them on for hours and there's zero heat from the bulb itself if you touch it, compared to touching a halogen or incandescent bulb where you'd probably fry your fingers. Each fitting has 3 LED bulbs arranged in a triangle and they generate a nice even soft light. I think if you want to go for LEDs you'll need to spend the money putting new fittings (they can fit exactly where the halogen ones did) and a whole new "system" in for them (transformers etc). They work off a normal lightswitch so nothing fancy there, but they've lasted 18 months so far and didn't require that much extensive work to put them in (simply removing the old transformers for the halogen bulbs and sticking the LED system in).

However, the people fitting the new kitchen advised us to keep our existing halogen bulbs (which we've never replaced since buying the house, so that's 9 years at least) as they've heard about people having issues with the LED systems catching fire?

As for CFLs or "energy saving" bulbs, you can now get the ones that look just like incandescent bulbs (even the "flame" looking ones) and they only take a few minutes to warm up, as I live in the UK and (unfortunately) we're part of the EU you can't get 60W or 100W incandescent bulbs anymore. The CFLs we have seem to last a while the last one I replaced we had for 7 years and bought from IKEA I believe. For a kitchen I quite like the Triphosphor bulbs we have under the cupboards, they cast a nice warm glow and warm up instantly (no flickering) and are quite a low wattage/heat output. They're also very slimline.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
Do you have MR16 lamps? They don't have a great life.

I'm using a mix of different makes as I usually stock up with a couple of packets when I run out of replacements, so I haven't a clue what types I'm using at the mo.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:09 pm

MR16 is the type, not a brand. They're 2' in diameter. Like this:

http://www.affordablequalitylighting...0w-mr16-12v-halogen-bulb-surecolor

They get very hot and are susceptible to vibration - eg from someone walking on the floor above.
Fortune favours the brave
 
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Aesma
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Why not?

Because LEDs are made of semiconductor wafers, so putting many around a big radiator gets expensive.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Klaus
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):
Because LEDs are made of semiconductor wafers, so putting many around a big radiator gets expensive.

Single high-power LEDs can be even more expensive than several mid- or low-power ones and they need more cooling because they dissipate a lot more heat in about the same area as one of the smaller ones.

With lower-power LEDs good cooling can be a lot easier since the heat production is already distributed.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 1):

Because of concerns over the mercury content of CFL bulbs, I'm still using incandescent bulbs in my home

There is debate whether the decreased power plant mercury emissions caused by CFL use offset the mercury issue. Ideally, I'd go for all LED's, but that would be a proposition of a few hundred dollars in a rental house that would basically be a donation to the landlord. The CFL's are much cheaper and save us a lot on energy.

Quoting comorin (Reply 2):
2. I have been lurking in India the last few months and the CFLs you get here tend to be blue-ish (6500K) - what color temperature are your CFLs? I can't stand the 'cool' tones - reminds me of the tube lights of the 50's. I did find CFLs with great difficultly that were warmer, but 2750K is too yellow.

Most CFL's here are 2700K to 3000K. The 2700K is slightly yellower than an incandescent. The 3000K is slightly bluer, but not unpleasantly so like 5,000K+. I find that when most of the house is lit by them, it's hard to notice the yellow.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 8):
Yes, they consume more, but are a better fit in transiently lit places like the bathroom.

For places that have a lot of on-and-off, LED or incandescent is the way to go. Especially for motion-sensing lights.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 19):
As for CFLs or "energy saving" bulbs, you can now get the ones that look just like incandescent bulbs (even the "flame" looking ones)

I do have candelabra bulbs. They make good light, but they're ugly and have black writing on the side.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Ken777
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:28 am

We use CFLs where possible and, when affordable, will move to LEDs.

I'm actually surprised that there are not multiple LED light factories already built and competing vigorously.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:33 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Because of concerns over the mercury content of CFL bulbs, I'm still using incandescent bulbs in my home

There is debate whether the decreased power plant mercury emissions caused by CFL use offset the mercury issue.

I watched a video of the CEO of TCP (one of the largest CFL mfrs in the world), in it he took the mercury from a typical CFL on his finger and ate it. It was a minute amount. I'm sure some of the early CFLs had a lot more mercury, but that was then and this is now. Likewise the first generation of CFLs were poor CRI (effectively the light quality), poor CCT (the colour of the light) and they took forever to warm up. As a result they got bad press. I challenge anyone to tell the difference between a new, decent quality CFL and an incandescent. I'm in the lighting business and I can't.

There are some poor LEDs out there now like there were poor quality CFLs - but stick with the big brands and they work well. The Philips A19 is a great LED - I have a few in the pendant lights in my kitchen and they're superb. Very little heat is a great benefit to the lower wattage.
Fortune favours the brave
 
nws2002
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:39 am

CFL's give me a headache, I'm not sure why buy they do. So I use a mix of incandescent, halogen, and LED. I've been replacing the incandescents with halogen as they die. The only exception has been the recessed lights, and those get LED. I just have not found an LED bulb that disperses light in the same way an incandescent or halogen bulb does in a lamb. They are very omni-directional which is great for the downlight needs of a recessed light but looks very strange when you place them in a lamp and the entire bottom 30 degrees is lightless.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:22 am

Hubby and I are looking into buying a place. I wonder how expensive a built-in system is with adjustable colors...

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 26):
I challenge anyone to tell the difference between a new, decent quality CFL and an incandescent.

I have CFL's that are three months old that take 5 minutes to full brightness. And start comically low. That said, I have CFL's that I've had for four years and still work fine, even with the warm-up period.

The light, however, is fantastic. Less glare than incandescent, too.

After reading this thread, I decided to install LED's in my own personal lamps (not in the house fixtures). And so I priced it out online. Just the 40w candelabra bulb replacement (5W LED) alone would cost $226. And that doesn't count the two 60 watt replacements and the 100 watt replacement that I'd also need.

[Edited 2012-09-30 21:51:36]
-Doc Lightning-

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Kiwirob
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:40 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
I'm actually surprised that there are not multiple LED light factories already built and competing vigorously.

There are, Osram, Philips & GE all have factories, plus there are multiple factories in China spewing out cheap LEDS.
 
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sturmovik
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:47 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 2):
CFLs you get here tend to be blue-ish (6500K)

Y'know, in case you need them, there are a few lighting shops in BLR that sell the warm coloured CFLs. But yeah, everyone uses the bluish lights. For me, it's a force of habit. We used to have tube lights of the same hue at home. I get mildly annoyed when I have to read under any other hue of light.
'What's it doing now?'
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
After reading this thread, I decided to install LED's in my own personal lamps (not in the house fixtures). And so I priced it out online. Just the 40w candelabra bulb replacement (5W LED) alone would cost $226. And that doesn't count the two 60 watt replacements and the 100 watt replacement that I'd also need.

Yep, it can sure be expensive. How about changing just the most regularly used fixtures? You'll get the best energy savings for your expenditure that way. I bought a chandelier (on a dimming circuit) with 5 lights for above a dining table - I put all 60w incandescents in even though I'm quite efficiency-minded. They were around 40c each whereas dimmable CFLs or LEDs would have been $15 each. I use them for about 5 hrs/week. Would take me forever to realise a financial benefit from the LEDs over the incandescents. I like saving energy but not at that cost.
Fortune favours the brave
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 21):
MR16 is the type, not a brand. They're 2' in diameter

They are similar to the one in the pic, only with small cylindrical contacts at the end of the pins. The LED bulbs that I tried had a similar life to the halogen ones. One set of LEDs I bought wouldn't even fit the sockets -- they had a more bulbous ceramic base, which made them slightly too large.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 31):

Yep, it can sure be expensive. How about changing just the most regularly used fixtures?

That makes more sense and that's the approach I'm taking. For certain applications in the house (four motion-sensing floods and the dimmable globes over the mirror in the bathroom), I use incandescents. The motion sensors run maybe 30 minutes per day and need to turn on instantly. LED's of similar power would cost $200 for the four bulbs and save negligible energy. CFL's are wholly inappropriate for a motion sensor given the frequent cycling and the extended warm-up time.

For the bathroom, again they are low-use and dimmable LED's are expensive. For dimmable LED's of that power (20W each incandescent), if I can even find globes that aren't fugly, I'm looking at $80 which goes into improving the value of the house that I don't own.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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GuitrThree
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 3):
I have an old-style long fluorescent tube lights in the (1980's vintage) built-in kitchen ceiling fixture

When I was in Hawaii this summer in an elevator, I looked up and noticed that the old fluorescent tubes where replaced with direct fit tubes of LED's. They were stunning. I'm guessing the existing fixtures had to be retrofitted with the old "starters" being removed from the old fixtures, but they looked good. Looked some up when I got home and they were around $50 on sites like Ebay. Too much for a "toy." When they get cheaper, however....

This place has them but they are way more expensive, but will give you an idea of what they look like:

http://www.lightbulbdepot.com/department.asp?sub=253&dep=T-8
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DocLightning
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 34):
When I was in Hawaii this summer in an elevator, I looked up and noticed that the old fluorescent tubes where replaced with direct fit tubes of LED's. They were stunning. I'm guessing the existing fixtures had to be retrofitted with the old "starters" being removed from the old fixtures, but they looked good.

Actually, I think they're designed to slide right in without any modification. And because the LED's are spaced out, a huge heat sink is not necessary. Once they're placed, they can stay there upwards of ten years before needing replacement and especially in a place like an elevator where they will be on essentially all the time, they will more than pay for themselves.
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nickh
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:30 am

I am slowly starting to replace my CFLs with incandescent-look-alike LED lamps - they have a "cleaner" ~3K color BUT - the transformers in the base (at least in the brand that I've been buying - Philips) - are a lot more succeptible to power fluctuations than the cheaper CFLs.

I Dislike the yellower light (2700K or so) of commercially available CFLs here in the U.S. - the L.E.D.s are brighter at the same wattage and have a more pleasant color temperature.

I wish that I could find some Pure White CFLs - I'm sure that they make them, just without the artificial tint inside.

I'll have to look around on the net.

-Nick
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting nickh (Reply 36):
I wish that I could find some Pure White CFLs - I'm sure that they make them, just without the artificial tint inside.

"Pure White" is a 5,000K or 6,000K bulb. While it's a perfectly good color to work under, it's not very relaxing.
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:06 am

Well, I ordered three 800 lumen LEDs for my own fixtures. They come in those annoying rigid plastic things that are impossible to cut open without ripping your fingers to shreds in the process. The bulbs are this yellow color when turned off, but when turned on they look just like an incandescent. I dropped two of them on the hardwood in the process and they still work fine (that's an advantage!). The entire ensemble was $90, though. I won't replace the CFL's I placed in the house fixtures. The next tenants can worry about that.
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zippyjet
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):



I've always been a fan of the less heat output the better. Even growing up in my parent's house which was mid 1950's tenement especially the bathrooms there was a fluorescent tube over the mirror.

Personally, all the lights in my apartment are CFL with the exception of my front porch floods which are the incandescent bug lights. Here in Baltimore we get many warm snaps and out come those pesky bugs including the flying cockroach and stink bugs plus moths galore. Also my porch light is photo electric cell hard wired into the electric. The on at dusk off at dawn feature is null and void when CFL's are in place. LED street lights are starting to pop up on the streets of Baltimore, (finally something progressive in our city). At first the street looks darker than the orange Sodium vapor they replace but upon further notice actually give off a brighter natural concentrated light that illuminates the street and surrounding sidewalks. Also the WN 737-800's overhead passenger individual lighting are LED and look great.
LED bulbs are slowly starting to come down in price and hopefully soon will be competitive price wise. I'm also hoping they come out with an outdoor LED flood lamp that is yellow/bug repelling and works with the photo electric dawn to dusk feature. Keep looking for sales and specials for LED bulbs.
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Klaus
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
The bulbs are this yellow color when turned off, but when turned on they look just like an incandescent.

That's because they're actually blue LEDs coated with a layer that converts some of the blue light into red and green (=yellow) which together with the remaining blue light looks white. The ratio between the two determines how "warm" or "cold" the light will appear.
 
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
That's because they're actually blue LEDs coated with a layer that converts some of the blue light into red and green (=yellow) which together with the remaining blue light looks white. The ratio between the two determines how "warm" or "cold" the light will appear.

Yeah, I figured that out.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 39):
LED bulbs are slowly starting to come down in price and hopefully soon will be competitive price wise.

I wonder how much. The current generation of LED lamps is typically advertised as lasting 2-3 decades. I do think that LED is the last form of high-efficiency lighting we will see for the forseeable future, but imagine how efficient they will be in 2 decades.

So the bulbs can't get *too* cheap or they'll never make money on them, because a house built today with LED's installed throughout might need two or three bulb replacements in its lifetime, so they can't make them too cheap or they'll never make money. The only solution is to make newer bulbs that are so much more efficient that they justify the cost of replacement. And given that a modern 100W-equivalent LED uses less than 20W, even a 1W replacement would have to be pretty cheap to justify replacing it. So I think that there's a force towards pricing them higher because the market will saturate quickly.
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L-188
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:44 pm

I have been switching over to CFL's as my old bulbs go out.

The only exception are those lights that are on a dimmer switch, and in my unheated crawl space whe I put a cfl and incandescent on evey other socket so that I would have some light immediately. I have noticed that CFL's do take a bit longer to warm up in cold weather.

I think my brother stocked up on 100 watters before they sold out, he hates CFLs
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Kiwirob
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
And because the LED's are spaced out, a huge heat sink is not necessary.

All LEDS need a heat since, LEDS produce more heat than light.

The really cool thing about LED is that the variety and form factor of lighting is going to change drastically in the future, we will no longer have to put up with lights that the bulb dictates the shape of the fixture.
 
Klaus
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
And because the LED's are spaced out, a huge heat sink is not necessary.

All LEDS need a heat since, LEDS produce more heat than light.

No, that's the great thing about LEDs: Many smaller ones can be spaced out so that their regular mounting mechanism is already sufficient to dissipate what heat they produce.

The issue here is energy density. Distributed LEDs can have a very low energy density and thus keep absolute temperatures even at the LEDs themselves low, while few very bright LEDs or conventional bulbs concentrate large amounts of heat in a very small space.

And since it's not so much the total heat output that's a problem as rather the absolute maximum temperature, a big LED with concentrated heat output will quickly exceed its own maximum operating temperature (and get progressively less efficient even below that) and may need a heat sink or even active cooling (a fan) while smaller spaced-out LEDs can dissipate their heat much better even without any dedicated heat sink if done properly.

That's pretty much the whole point about LED lighting (together with LED's much greater sensitivity to heat).
 
trvyyz
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:29 pm

Do the LED lights need FDA approval? just curious.
 
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
Many smaller ones can be spaced out so that their regular mounting mechanism is already sufficient to dissipate what heat they produce.

Which is acting as a heat sink, I see LEDS pretty much every day on account of working in a lighting factory and selling light. All of our LED products have heat sinks, heat management is the key to getting long life out of LEDS. There is also a big difference between a designed for LED product and something designed for incandescent or florescent lights, you just have to look at industrial fittings, designed for LED fittings are completely different from traditional fittings, also converted to LED fittings aren't in general very good, efficient or with a long life.
 
Klaus
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
Which is acting as a heat sink

When the distribution is wide enough, you could even suspend them in thin air and they would still not burn out.

A high-power LED providing the same amount of light would burn out in a matter of seconds (if that) without a substantial, dedicated heat sink.

We could be splitting hairs, but this is a rather substantial difference to incandescent bulbs which are inherently very hot due to their operation principle and distribution is not just impractical (not least due to their low lifespan) but also of limited utility, since their maximum temperatures don't and can't go down that way, contrary to LEDs.
 
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 45):
Do the LED lights need FDA approval? just curious.

Given that they are neither a food nor a drug, I can't imagine why they would.
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KingFriday013
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RE: Lighting Solutions

Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:39 pm

We have all different kinds of lighting in my home (old-school incandescent, fluorescent, CFLs, etc.)... but I think all but the bathrooms and maybe one hallway are on dimmers. Helps when your mother is a lighting designer and gets cheap fixtures 

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