Avianca
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Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Tomorrow Venezuela will celebrate the presidential elections.

The 2 favorites are

current President Hugo Rafael Chavez since 14 years in Power

and the mayor opposition leader Enrique Capriles Radonski,

right now no doubt the country is living a very tentions situation as the polls are showing a very close result.

anywho many many people have a big hope for tomorrow and a better Veneuzela in the future.

Radonski held an incredible election campain, visiting village by village the last 3 months in oposit the current president held a quite week campain.

Chavez told many times that he recognized that he made many errors during the last 14 years but the important is that the people should vote for him
Radonski in oposite told quite clear what is in his plans.

please find 2 links to the mayor songs of the canditates during the campain.



Radonski: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcuXKM-qFmo&feature=related
Chavez: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsejbsZ_ZdM&feature=related

no doubt that both canditates had milliones of followers in the street during that last days of their campaigns.

God may bless Venezuela.

Cheers
Avianca
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Dreadnought
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting Avianca (Thread starter):
and the mayor opposition leader Enrique Capriles Radonski

He looks like an interesting man. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope that Chavez is sent off to retirement (in Cuba or Iran since he seems to like them so much)
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Avianca
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
He looks like an interesting man. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope that Chavez is sent off to retirement (in Cuba or Iran since he seems to like them so much)

no doubt he is with an incredible CV!

Milliones of Venezuelan people are crossing the fingers and are goving to vote tomorrow for Radonski, and yes Chavez already addmited in case he lose tomorrow he will resign from his duty as he will be not open to be in power during the transition period!

cheers
Avianca
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Dreadnought
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
Milliones of Venezuelan people are crossing the fingers and are goving to vote tomorrow for Radonski, and yes Chavez already addmited in case he lose tomorrow he will resign from his duty as he will be not open to be in power during the transition period!

What's the word on fraud? I have little doubt that Chavez would have no qualms about stuffing ballot boxes.
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Francoflier
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:01 pm

I'm actually slightly (pleasantly) surprised that Chavez hasn't completely done away with democracy and the constitution and that presidential elections are still allowed... I was fearing the worst a few years ago.

He nonetheless still has a lot of grip on every facet of the government and media and I'm guessing his opponent has an uphill battle to fight, even assuming ballot boxes aren't stuffed or the like.

I hope he goes away. He's done his country enough disservice already.
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MIAspotter
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting Avianca (Thread starter):
Chavez told many times that he recognized that he made many errors during the last 14 years but the important is that the people should vote for him

And does he think Venezuelans are that stupid? 14 years was plenty of time for him to build what he called ¨Socialism of the 21st century¨ yet all he did was spend the people´s money doing dodgy businesses with Iran, Cuba, Bolivia, Etc and completely collapsing the country´s industry by expropriating factories, companies, businesses and farms and letting them rot away with little to no investment.

Yes he ¨may¨ have done ¨some¨ good things like healthcare and those missions for the poor, but even that had a second nature behind it.

Anyways, I hope Capriles is elected so we can finally close this dark chapter in the history of this beautiful country, I really want to feel proud of my country again, and I want to wish Capriles the best of luck if he wins, there´s a heck of a lot of work to do!

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Avianca
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 4):
I'm actually slightly (pleasantly) surprised that Chavez hasn't completely done away with democracy and the constitution and that presidential elections are still allowed... I was fearing the worst a few years ago.

he was not able to, if he would have done this - you can be sure that war had started.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 4):
I hope he goes away. He's done his country enough disservice already.

Milliones are hoping the same! thanks for your support!

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 5):
And does he think Venezuelans are that stupid? 14 years was plenty of time for him to build what he called ¨Socialism of the 21st century¨ yet all he did was spend the people´s money doing dodgy businesses with Iran, Cuba, Bolivia, Etc and completely collapsing the country´s industry by expropriating factories, companies, businesses and farms and letting them rot away with little to no investment.

unbelivable all the bad thinks he has done, also its a shame how corrupt is Venezuela - its unbelivable.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 5):
Yes he ¨may¨ have done ¨some¨ good things like healthcare and those missions for the poor, but even that had a second nature behind it.

for sure he made some good things, but very limited.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 5):
Anyways, I hope Capriles is elected so we can finally close this dark chapter in the history of this beautiful country, I really want to feel proud of my country again, and I want to wish Capriles the best of luck if he wins, there´s a heck of a lot of work to do!

hope you can exercise tomorrow your vote, I wish I could, also living in Venezuela I am only resident.

saludos desde Caracas
Avianca
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Francoflier
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
you can be sure that war had started.

It almost did in Honduras a few years ago when Chavez tried to place a minion of his in power there.

I presume the goal was mostly to get a clear drug pathway through the isthmus to the North for his FARC buddies.

Although internationally decried, the coup d'état possibly saved that country from the worst.

Best of luck for the election!
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:22 pm

Good luck, not sure if it's just a Western spin or the truth (seems to be the latter) but Hugo Chavez does not sound like a very good man. Best of luck for Venezuela moving into the future!
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Avianca
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:52 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 4):
I'm actually slightly (pleasantly) surprised that Chavez hasn't completely done away with democracy and the constitution and that presidential elections are still allowed... I was fearing the worst a few years ago.

well a good example how democratic the guy is following:
He closed down the Venezulean Consulat in Miami some time ago in order that the biggest Venezulean community abroad can not vote, anyhow thousands and thousands are on their way or already arrived in New Orleans in order to vote tomorrow for a future of Venezuela!
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MIAspotter
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:34 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
hope you can exercise tomorrow your vote, I wish I could, also living in Venezuela I am only resident.

Unfortunately I can´t, my passport and ID card are expired from a long time ago, but since trying to renew these things was such a hassle from abroad, I just gave up.

All the best of luck to all my fellow Venezuelans, they have already voted in Australia and Asia, now they are voting here in Europe, and soon they will start voting back home  

SE VE, SE SIENTE!

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ltbewr
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:03 pm

Anybody will be better than the dictatorial Chavez. Besides, he probably wouldn't live another term anyway.
 
Avianca
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:17 am

we are not far away to get the results... the tention is very high right now in Venezuela / Caracas
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PHX787
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 12):
we are not far away to get the results... the tention is very high right now in Venezuela / Caracas

Have there been riots/violence in the past over these results? I hope we don't see much, but IMO Chavez needs to go.
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iFlyLOTs
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am

According to reports, both sides think that Chavez has won.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ela-election-idUSBRE89601Z20121008
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PHX787
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:01 am

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 14):
According to reports, both sides think that Chavez has won.

Just got an update from FOX
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Braniff747SP
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:09 am

Chavez won, with 54% of the vote.

Expected, but disappointing nonetheless.
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ggsm
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:49 am

So sad that even today ignorance is bigger than reality in Venezuela, but hope is the last thing we can lose.
 
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:51 am

Apparently it was a democratic election. Such is the trouble with democracy. Winston Churchill would agree with my assessment, I'm sure.
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AR385
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 16):
Expected, but disappointing nonetheless.

While not completely ruling out fraud, it would be impossible to make in a scale that would him such a margin of victory. Some media talk about a 10% lead or about a million votes. So, either the media in the Western world have been painting a very dire picture of Venezuela under Chávez, and things are not so bad as they seem, or the Venezuelan people in a majority are pretty happy under him.

He will be dead anyway, within a year, two tops.

I do hate the mesage that his victory, legitimate as it may be, is sending to Argentina, Nicaragua, Ecuador and Bolivia.
 
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:16 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
He will be dead anyway, within a year, two tops.

Let's hope so.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):

Apparently it was a democratic election. Such is the trouble with democracy. Winston Churchill would agree with my assessment, I'm sure.

  
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viaggiare
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
either the media in the Western world have been painting a very dire picture of Venezuela under Chávez, and things are not so bad as they seem, or the Venezuelan people in a majority are pretty happy under him

Or perhaps a majority of swing voters perceived Capriles as a puppet of the traditional greedy elites that ruled before Chávez.
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cedars747
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:18 am

Grande Chavez !
congratulations to Venezuela,I mean for the 54%  
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:23 am

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 21):
Or perhaps a majority of swing voters perceived Capriles as a puppet of the traditional greedy elites that ruled before Chávez.

Exactly. Chavez has many flaws, but anybody would certainly not be better than him. And he is vilified in the US while other leaders with far less legitimacy are hailed.
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AR385
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 21):
Or perhaps a majority of swing voters perceived Capriles as a puppet of the traditional greedy elites that ruled before Chávez.

That too. But given the current state of Venzuela in many areas (at least what the media protrays) I bet those swing voters would have voted FOR the return of those "traditional greedy elites".
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:46 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 16):
Chavez won, with 54% of the vote.

I did not want to say anything on this thread before the vote as I was totally convinced that he would win.

Also it is none of my business to comment on another country's election results. The world would be a better place if we just minded our own business in our home countries without messing about in others.

I think things are bad enough where we are so there is no need that we try to rectify what others are doing. It is their own freedom to vote who they want. Let's take care of our own problems first and foremost. That we don't like it is another problem, but still none of our business.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Apparently it was a democratic election.

Didn't they have foreign inspectors sent to make sure the vote would be "regular" and not cheated?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
He will be dead anyway, within a year, two tops.

Wishing death on another person is the worst thing imaginable. Such low thinking will return an equal negative reaction to those who think that way also.

Live and let live. Once again we should mind our own business where we live and stop interfering in other countries business. Who they vote is their own problem. Let them deal with it themselves and take in the consequences.

I did not like Hollande winning the French election but now he is there and he has full power so I have to do with it. I would never think of wishing that he would die. He is so bad anyway that people will be happy to get rid of him next time anyway.

 
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viaggiare
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
And he is vilified in the US while other leaders with far less legitimacy are hailed

Someone in The Guardian was calling bs on the double standard just last week.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 24):
given the current state of Venzuela in many areas (at least what the media protrays)

It's amazing what passes for media coverage here in Latin America.. and specifically with regard to Venezuela, search online (either torrent files or YouTube copies) for the 2003 documentary La revolución no será transmitida or The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, aka Chávez: Inside the Coup.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 24):
I bet those swing voters would have voted FOR the return of those "traditional greedy elites"

And ironically those who systematically neglected the downtrodden masses for years, created the right conditions for Chávez's version of Bolivarianism and self–styled Socialist revolution to flourish.
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AR385
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:02 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 25):
Wishing death on another person is the worst thing imaginable. Such low thinking will return an equal negative reaction to those who think that way also.

You did not understand what I wrote, Madame. I am not wishing his dead. I am just stating that given the well known facts about his illness, plus his very limited campaign appearances are indicators that he is not very healthy, and in fact, it has been written in the media that he is terminal.
 
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):
in fact, it has been written in the media that he is terminal.

i would abstain from this kind of comments. I don't wish terminal cancer on anyone.

 
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AR385
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:42 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
i would abstain from this kind of comments. I don't wish terminal cancer on anyone.

I will remind you, again, that I am not the one inventing those comments. Once you read the links I have provided below, and see for yourself how I am not making anything up, you may wish to write or e-mail those media and tell them your opinion about abstaining on commenting about wether or not the president of a country running for office for a third term has terminal cancer.

http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/arti...22.html?xtmc=chavez_cancer&xtcr=10

http://internacional.elpais.com/inte.../actualidad/1349645931_568303.html

http://www.clarin.com/america_latina...ampana-reeleccion_0_710928963.html
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
I don't wish terminal cancer on anyone.

Neither do I, neither do most.

But I'm calling Karma on this one. The amount of violence and deaths he is directly or indirectly responsible for is incredible. His only real policy is demagogy, axed on the hatred for the evil forces that are the rich, the capitalists and the western nations that harbor them...

He is a self proclaimed rebel who advocates violence, and seems to be obtaining it since Venezuela has now become the least secure country in South America, ridden with rampant violence and murders...
Not to mention his catastrophic economic policies, strongly suspected ties with the FARCs and drug trafficking, and lack of any real progress in the fight against poverty, especially since he counts on the votes from the poor who he still manages to lure with empty promises.

There are a lot of people out there with terminal diseases who deserve it a lot less than this guy.

While the US is (rightly) keeping an idle stance towards him, I find it deplorable that many politicians in Europe are outspoken about their support towards him. Europeans understand little about the history and politics of Central and South America and are mistakenly attracted by the revolutionary ideas of the oppressed poor against the evil, all-powerful wealthy. The Che is an idol and even Castro is pictured as a relatively benign figure... We probably feel empathy since our history and nation has been drastically and positively reshaped by a revolution. Unfortunately, the social revolutions lead in Latin America have failed to lead to democratic and free nations.
Instead, they resulted in authoritative and oppressive regimes with catastrophic management of the country's ressources, corruption, and no real social improvement.

These countries do need more social laws to help decrease the huge gap separating classes, but they are unlikely to happen this way...

I feel for Venezuelans.
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SuperCaravelle
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Apparently it was a democratic election. Such is the trouble with democracy. Winston Churchill would agree with my assessment, I'm sure.

Election itself probably was, but as far as I understand it, and I've tried to follow this election as closely as possible, there was no media freedom before the elections, meaning Chavez got a lot of televised election coverage and Capriles a mere three minutes a day. Maybe a Venezuelan member can inform us if this was indeed the case? And I would also be interested in the general mood after the elections.

Anyway, I am happy that the elections itself appeared to be genuine, both sides seem to have respected voters freedom and privacy, and that the elections were (relatively) violence - free.
 
Avianca
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:59 pm

well this is democracy, we have to accept the result, also I saw today many many people with unhappy faces.

Quoting cedars747 (Reply 22):
Grande Chavez !
congratulations to Venezuela,I mean for the 54%

such a comment is typically for non democracy people!

Exactly the opposite what Capriles said in his speech! Highly recomend to all who are speaking spanish to search for it in youtube!

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 31):
Election itself probably was, but as far as I understand it, and I've tried to follow this election as closely as possible, there was no media freedom before the elections, meaning Chavez got a lot of televised election coverage and Capriles a mere three minutes a day. Maybe a Venezuelan member can inform us if this was indeed the case? And I would also be interested in the general mood after the elections.

well here you go, you are totally correct.

Cheers from Caracas.
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PHX787
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
He will be dead anyway, within a year, two tops.

Well I wonder how long has there been an armed opposition? If such an assassination occured, we could see a fascist state in Venezuela. As much as I love my right wing politics, dictatorship sucks.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 25):
I did not like Hollande winning the French election but now he is there and he has full power so I have to do with it. I would never think of wishing that he would die. He is so bad anyway that people will be happy to get rid of him next time anyway.

Seems like you guys have been kicking the can here with presidents. I like Sarkozy but maybe he didn't do quite enough. Hollande is just going to ruin france's government debt   

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 26):
Someone in The Guardian was calling bs on the double standard just last week.

Well it is the guardian, but I do see their point.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 32):
well this is democracy, we have to accept the result, also I saw today many many people with unhappy faces.

Has fraud been ruled out yet? has anyone been contesting it?
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SuperCaravelle
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 33):
Well I wonder how long has there been an armed opposition? If such an assassination occured, we could see a fascist state in Venezuela. As much as I love my right wing politics, dictatorship sucks.

I think he's talking about the cancer rumors, which are quite persistently rumoring (that's what rumors do, after all) that Chavez' treatment for the disease wasn't successful at all.
 
AA757MIA
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Apparently it was a democratic election.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
While not completely ruling out fraud,

The election itself was probably fair, the problem is with the electoral registry. There are THOUSANDS (if not millions) of people with 2, 3 or who knows how many more national IDs, so they can vote several times. Not too mention the THOUSANDS (if not millions) of Iranians, Cubans, Brazilians, Belorusians, Colombians, Chinese and others who have received nationals IDs and compensation to vote for Chavez...

I don't have any ID numbers right now, but on previous elections you could enter some ID numbers on the CNE website, just to find out that they belonged to Batman, Robin, Superman, the wonder woman, and many others, also people over 120 y/o who voted... A total joke!

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 31):
Election itself probably was, but as far as I understand it, and I've tried to follow this election as closely as possible, there was no media freedom before the elections, meaning Chavez got a lot of televised election coverage and Capriles a mere three minutes a day. Maybe a Venezuelan member can inform us if this was indeed the case? And I would also be interested in the general mood after the elections.

Correct! They have the money to buy votes, control of all the institutions, airwaves, newspapers...
 
cedars747
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:51 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 32):
such a comment is typically for non democracy people!

Your comment is typically for non democracy people because I have the right to express myself something that doesn't please you
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pvjin
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:34 pm

Great that Chavez won, sure he has his flaws but at least he supports Cuba which is a good thing, and he has indeed done many good things to improve healthcare and help poor people.


I don't know about this other candidate though, but as long as United States has big amount of conservative Republicans anything that opposes US imperialistic foreign policy is okay, other than evil extremist governments like in North Korea or Iran of course.

But sure if I have to choose between Chavez Socialism and US influenced right wing fake democracy where rich have all the power like in many other Latin American countries I would choose Chavez.

[Edited 2012-10-09 09:37:02]
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
cedars747
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
But sure if I have to choose between Chavez Socialism and US influenced right wing fake democracy where rich have all the power like in many other Latin American countries I would choose Chavez.


Really amazing and mature comment ! you made my day pvjin !
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MIAspotter
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting cedars747 (Reply 36):
Your comment is typically for non democracy people because I have the right to express myself something that doesn't please you

Fair enough, but what we find quite disturbing is somebody that cheers up Chavez knowing all the damage he has done (and will continue to) do to Venezuela.

*Rampaging violence, just this weekend alone there were 79 people killed, obviously no one will be prosecuted because the justice system is a total joke.
*Crippling infrastructure due to lack of proper maintenance, bridges falling, Oil refineries blowing up and frequent power outages because he rather spend the country´s money with his friends Castro, Ahmadinejad and Co than investing in the country.
*A divided society, discriminating people and segregating them because they do not support him, putting a barrier for them to get jobs, education, etc.
*Crippling social services, try and go to a public hospital in Venezuela and see if they will be able to treat you. Even the famous ¨Missions¨ he created for the poor people, some are just empty buildings now.
*Almost no industry left, because he went on an ¨expropriation¨ spree, taking away companies from private investors, destroying jobs and the economy in the way and letting those companies, farms, businesess just rot away because he did not care afterwards.
*Look at the prices of Oil these days, Venezuelans should now be swimming in petrodollars, instead poverty and crime has been steadily on the rise.
*Total lack of diplomacy, now investors think twice or thrice before putting money in Venezuela. Unless you are Iran, Bielorussia or China.

You might say ¨Yeah but still 7 million venezuelans voted for him and he helped the poor¨

Well, he controls the Electoral Committee, and I am pretty sure a ¨Slight¨ manipulation of numbers kept him in power. it doesn´t really take a fool to know this.

And about helping the poor, well, there is a reasoning behind it, if you give a person 20€ a week to get some food, set up some shoddy hospital in the slums, well, of course he will vote for you, as long as those 20€ keep coming and that person can just sit on his arse all day drinking beer and listening to reggaeton instead of incentivating him or her to do better and get out of the slums.

As the saying does ¨People without education is people easier to fool¨

The list goes on an on and on.

So yeah, you are free to think as you like enjoying a comfy lifestyle in Norway or wherever the hell you happen to live (certainly not CCS) but I still don´t see how can someone support this guy.

Please give me your reasons.

I invite you to go to Venezuela and live like a venezuelan, see how long can you handle it, running back to your house at 6pm because you don´t know if you will make it back home alive, and making lines at Mercal or PDVAL to get whatever food happens to be available at the time, and just basically living in constant fear... you will be winging your way to the nearest SK plane out of there.

My opinion since I am also entitled to freedom of speech.

MIAspotter.

[Edited 2012-10-09 11:18:04]

[Edited 2012-10-09 11:19:34]
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MIAspotter
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
Great that Chavez won, sure he has his flaws but at least he supports Cuba which is a good thing, and he has indeed done many good things to improve healthcare and help poor people.

And supporting Cuba is a good thing because?

Supporting an oppresive government that kills and prosecutes any form of opposition? and oppresses their own people without any form of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to choose who will govern them or freedon to move around freely if wished so? you think that´s good?

Venezuela has been sending hundreds of oil barrels to Cuba for a few years now, do you think the average cuban has seen his life improved JUST ONE BIT? I don´t think so.

I am also against some US policies, but believe me, Castro is not the solution either mate.

You 2 live in a delirious world.

MIAspotter.
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cedars747
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
Fair enough, but what we find quite disturbing is somebody that cheers up Chavez knowing all the damage he has done (and will continue to) do to Venezuela.

Look MIA, I respect your opinion but obviously we have different concept about democracy.From my point of view pvjin used a very mature explanation [But sure if I have to choose between Chavez Socialism and US influenced right wing fake democracy where rich have all the power like in many other Latin American countries I would choose Chavez.]
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MIAspotter
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting cedars747 (Reply 41):

You still have not given me your reasons to support Chavez, (obviously you have NONE, just the old ¨He stands up against the US bullcrap) and all you did was copy someone else´s post.

And believe me if you were in the situations of Venezuelans having to choose between Chavez ¨Socialism¨ and a US influence right wing yidda yadda fake democracy, that at least guarantees MY freedoms and my will to work and build a better life, that´s what you would choose.

MIAspotter.
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MIAspotter
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:49 pm

And believe me, I am just as tired as everyone else´s of the current ¨Democracies¨ around the world, and specially here in Spain, yes I would love a change, yes I would love to have someone with guts to come around here, clean the house and put things straight.

But a totalitarian figure who is only looking to his own interests is not the answer, and Chavez has been in power for 14 years already and the country has gone from bad to worse.

MIAspotter.
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pvjin
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 40):
And supporting Cuba is a good thing because?

Supporting an oppresive government that kills and prosecutes any form of opposition? and oppresses their own people without any form of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to choose who will govern them or freedon to move around freely if wished so? you think that´s good?

Venezuela has been sending hundreds of oil barrels to Cuba for a few years now, do you think the average cuban has seen his life improved JUST ONE BIT? I don´t think so.

I am also against some US policies, but believe me, Castro is not the solution either mate.

I don't really believe in killings of opposition in Cuba, sure they are sent to jail but I doubt that killings would really happen anymore. Also Castro has done just what he had to keep United States from invading Cuba a way or another, had US not been hostile I doubt Cuba would be like this today.

And again I believe that if majority of Cubans did not support Fidel he wouldn't have been able to stay in power for so long. Cuba isn't completely closed like North Korea, if people had really been so unahappy with his policies they would have stood against him just like they did evil regime of Batista. I highly believe that without Castro Cuba would be like Haiti, ruined by corrupted right wing capitalist dictators supported by United States.


Sure things could be better in Cuba, but without Fidel they could be much worse. At least Cubans now have good healthcare and education, both that they lacked while Batista was still in power and about 50% of Cubans couldn't read & had really short life expectancy. At that time they were practically slaves of US corporations and small rich ruling elite.


Of course I would want Cuba to have more democracy and freedoms to the people (and that is actually slowly starting to happen), but still I just feel great respect towards Castro as one of the least corrupted world leaders ever.

Also yes, I do think at least part of that oil has been used for good of the people. Also part of it goes probably to growing tourism industry, and that on the other hand offers locals money as entrepreneurship is now allowed.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
I don't really believe in killings of opposition in Cuba, sure they are sent to jail but I doubt that killings would really happen anymore. Also Castro has done just what he had to keep United States from invading Cuba a way or another, had US not been hostile I doubt Cuba would be like this today.

Just because they don´t come out to the public light, doesn´t mean they don´t happen...

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
And again I believe that if majority of Cubans did not support Fidel he wouldn't have been able to stay in power for so long. Cuba isn't completely closed like North Korea, if people had really been so unahappy with his policies they would have stood against him just like they did evil regime of Batista. I highly believe that without Castro Cuba would be like Haiti, ruined by corrupted right wing capitalist dictators supported by United States.

I believe the majority of Cubans do not support Castro, but when you are threatened, chased and forced to support him, and all signs of an opposition is swiftly wiped out, I guess it´s pretty easy to see why he has remained in power for so long.

Ask the average Cuban (if there are any in Finland) how´s life back in the island, and I bet they won´t picture a pretty story, they lived it and they really know what goes on.

And please, in quality of living I think Cuba is not that far from Haiti... some places in Havana are not that different from Port au Prince.

And I find it funny that you criticize capitalism, when according to your flag live in Finland, sure its easy to applaud a tyran and wear a Che Guevara shirt from the comfort of your Ikea furnished home in Helsinki or Turku or Rovaniemi, with your high speed internet, comfy chair and decent computer and luxuries, when there is people suffering living under an oppressing regime, I find this very hippocritical and selfish.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Sure things could be better in Cuba, but without Fidel they could be much worse. At least Cubans now have good healthcare and education, both that they lacked while Batista was still in power and about 50% of Cubans couldn't read & had really short life expectancy. At that time they were practically slaves of US corporations and small rich ruling elite.

Batista was deposed back in the 50´s have Cuba remained or gained some sort of democracy and freedom, I am pretty sure they would have evolved and be on par with other caribbean/Latin american nations with or without their rough edges, or given the close proximity of the US, a lot of investment in tourism and industry. oh yeah... those darn evil right wing capitalist.

Heck, even Europe back in the 50s was still recovering from the war, and do you think we are were we are now because of a communist regime? hey it´s not perfect but at least we can live freely, move to wichever country in Europe takes our fancy, trade, study, work, and express ourselves.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Of course I would want Cuba to have more democracy and freedoms to the people (and that is actually slowly starting to happen), but still I just feel great respect towards Castro as one of the least corrupted world leaders ever.

Least corrupt? really? LOL.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Also yes, I do think at least part of that oil has been used for good of the people. Also part of it goes probably to growing tourism industry, and that on the other hand offers locals money as entrepreneurship is now allowed.

Probably, but still way short of what it should be.

MIAspotter.

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:07:30]

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:08:15]

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:11:33]
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SuperCaravelle
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:25 pm

This reminds me of a debate between a deluded socialist, place of residence London (I hasten to say it could've been any EU country, that's not the point) and a couple of Venezuelans in the comments of an article of The Economist on the Venezuelan elections.

The deluded socialist argued that Venezuelans were much better off and everyone was happy, all actual Venezuelans were denying this and backing this up with personal experiences and numbers. However, the deluded socialist maintained that they were wrong and didn't know what they were talking about.

Chavez now saying he needs six more years to finish the revolution reminds me awfully of the continuous five year promises made by the Soviet Union. For some reason, governments like this always argue that the future will be better because the people are suffering now, from their temporary policies...

That brings me on another question for our Venezuelan friends here: to what extent can we believe in the moderate comments by Chavez after the election (that he will become a better president, with room for dialogue and all)?
 
AR385
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
Ahmadinejad and Co than investing in the country.

And Argentina (Just 3 bllion USD were secretly given to the Argentine coffers in the last few months) Nicaragua, Eacuador and Bolivia.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
*Almost no industry left, because he went on an ¨expropriation¨ spree, taking away companies from private investors, destroying jobs and the economy in the way and letting those companies, farms, businesess just rot away because he did not care afterwards.

You have to give him this: He pays what he takes, at least, unlike her friend down in the Southern Cone.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
I invite you to go to Venezuela and live like a venezuelan, see how long can you handle it, running back to your house at 6pm because you don´t know if you will make it back home alive

There are no police patrols in Caracas after Midnight. This was decided after so many officers were being killed between midnight and morning. And yes, you will make it home alive as long as you are not carying a notebook, an Iphone, some new sneakers, or even a watch. Venezuela is now the second most unsafe country in the world, just behind Honduras.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
I don't really believe in killings of opposition in Cuba, sure they are sent to jail

Oh. Great. That is so much better. I´m glad that is more palatable to you.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
Cuba isn't completely closed like North Korea, if people had really been so unahappy with his policies they would have stood against him just like they did evil regime of Batista

Have you been to Cuba? You´d be surprised how little they know about other parts of the world. Beyond the idealization of Miami as some sort of paradise, they think Mexicans live in huts. But yes, Batista was another greedy idiot, one can´t dispute that.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
At least Cubans now have good healthcare and education

Not anymore my friend. Education has not gone downhill so badly, but in terms of healthcare, it ain´t what it used to be. For examle:

Chavez has required three surgeries, so far. The second one was carried out by Russian surgeons to fix the butchery carried out by Cuban surgeons in the first one. It is speculated that if this had not happen, the third surgery would not have been required. If this is the healthcare that the Castro´s buddy gets, I´d hate to know what the average Cuban is receiving nowadays.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
(and that is actually slowly starting to happen), but still I just feel great respect towards Castro as one of the least corrupted world leaders ever.

Least corrupt? Maybe. Ever? Come on. He has his stash, and it´s a significant one.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 39):
As the saying does ¨People without education is people easier to fool¨

Democracy has its downsides. Lack of education is its worst enemy.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
, sure they are sent to jail but I doubt that killings would really happen anymore.

Well, that's just fine, then.   

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
At least Cubans now have good healthcare and education,

Yes, it's like paradise down there...

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 46):
(that he will become a better president, with room for dialogue and all)?

Given it's track record, you can take that to the bank...  
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PHX787
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RE: Venezulean Presidential Elections 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
And again I believe that if majority of Cubans did not support Fidel he wouldn't have been able to stay in power for so long. Cuba isn't completely closed like North Korea, if people had really been so unahappy with his policies they would have stood against him just like they did evil regime of Batista. I highly believe that without Castro Cuba would be like Haiti, ruined by corrupted right wing capitalist dictators supported by United States.

Hate to nitpick, but "capitalist" and "dictatorship" completely contradictory. Capitalism is almost 100% freedom to start and grow a business that sells products that your customers want. Supply and Demand. The fact that you own a computer and bought the membership to join A.net, for example, is capitalism.
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