MadameConcorde
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F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:19 pm

Abu Dhabi F1 2012 Grand Prix

Yas Marina Circuit
Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates

Circuit Length 5.554kms
55 laps
Circuit Turns 21
Circuit Direction anti-clockwise
Capacity 50,000
Established 2009
Designer Hermann Tilke

November 2: Free practice 1
November 2: Free practice 2
17:00 local | 13:00 GMT | 14:00 CET
November 3: Free practice 3
14:00 local | 10:00 GMT | 11:00 CET
November 3: Qualifying
17:00 local | 13:00 GMT | 14:00 CET
November 4: Race
17:00 local | 13:00 GMT | 14:00 CET

  

Free Practice 1 Results

Free practice 1
Driver Teams Time
1 LC Hamilton (GBR) McLaren 1'43.285
2 J Button (GBR) McLaren 1'43.618
3 S Vettel (GER) Red Bull 1'44.050
4 F Alonso (ESP) Ferrari 1'44.366
5 M Webber (AUS) Red Bull 1'44.542
6 M Schumacher (GER) Mercedes 1'44.694
7 P Maldonado (VEN) Williams 1'45.115
8 N Rosberg (GER) Mercedes 1'45.194
9 V Bottas (FIN) Williams 1'45.347
10 KM Räikkönen (FIN) Lotus 1'45.422
11 F Massa (BRA) Ferrari 1'45.567
12 N Hülkenberg (GER) Force India 1'45.587
13 K Kobayashi (JPN) Sauber 1'45.722
14 R Grosjean (FRA) Lotus 1'45.743
15 J Bianchi (FRA) Force India 1'45.769
16 S Perez (MEX) Sauber 1'45.811
17 D Ricciardo (AUS) Toro Rosso 1'46.649
18 JE Vergne (FRA) Toro Rosso 1'46.708
19 H Kovalainen (FIN) Caterham 1'47.418
20 T Glock (GER) Marussia 1'47.891
21 PM de la Rosa (ESP) HRT 1'48.354
22 M Chilton (GBR) Marussia 1'48.887
23 M Qing Hua (CHN) HRT 1'50.487
24 G van der Garde (NED) Caterham

     



Free practice 2 Results

Pos Driver Team Time
1 Vettel GER Red Bull 1'41.751
2 Hamilton GBR McLaren 1'41.919
3 Button GBR McLaren 1'42.412
4 Webber AUS Red Bull 1'42.466
5 Grosjean FRA Lotus 1'42.500
6 Räikkönen FIN Lotus 1'42.532
7 Alonso ESP Ferrari 1'42.587
8 Massa BRA Ferrari 1'42.823
9 Maldonado VEN Williams 1'42.998
10 Perez MEX Sauber 1'43.106
11 Senna BRA Williams 1'43.191
12 Rosberg GER Mercedes 1'43.200
13 Hülkenberg GER Force India 1'43.255
14 Schumacher GER Mercedes 1'43.267
15 di Resta GBR Force India 1'43.578
16 Kobayashi JPN Sauber 1'43.689
17 Ricciardo AUS Toro Rosso 1'44.260
18 Vergne FRA Toro Rosso 1'45.073
19 Petrov RUS Caterham 1'45.245
20 Kovalainen FIN Caterham 1'45.782
21 Glock GER Marussia 1'46.589
22 Pic FRA Marussia 1'46.671
23 de la Rosa ESP HRT 1'46.707
24 Karthikeyan IND HRT 1'47.406

[Edited 2012-11-02 10:44:24 by SA7700]
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MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:39 pm

Free practice 2 Results

Pos Driver Team Time
1 Vettel GER Red Bull 1'41.751
2 Hamilton GBR McLaren 1'41.919
3 Button GBR McLaren 1'42.412
4 Webber AUS Red Bull 1'42.466
5 Grosjean FRA Lotus 1'42.500
6 Räikkönen FIN Lotus 1'42.532
7 Alonso ESP Ferrari 1'42.587
8 Massa BRA Ferrari 1'42.823
9 Maldonado VEN Williams 1'42.998
10 Perez MEX Sauber 1'43.106
11 Senna BRA Williams 1'43.191
12 Rosberg GER Mercedes 1'43.200
13 Hülkenberg GER Force India 1'43.255
14 Schumacher GER Mercedes 1'43.267
15 di Resta GBR Force India 1'43.578
16 Kobayashi JPN Sauber 1'43.689
17 Ricciardo AUS Toro Rosso 1'44.260
18 Vergne FRA Toro Rosso 1'45.073
19 Petrov RUS Caterham 1'45.245
20 Kovalainen FIN Caterham 1'45.782
21 Glock GER Marussia 1'46.589
22 Pic FRA Marussia 1'46.671
23 de la Rosa ESP HRT 1'46.707
24 Karthikeyan IND HRT 1'47.406

     
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Charles79
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Free practice 2 Results

I see that the much hated "finger boy" is on top! Congrats to Sebastian Vettel, well on his way to a thrid and very well deserved championship.      

(Full Disclosure: yes, huge Vettel fan here!).

If these practice times are indicative of true race pace (lately they have been), then Alonso is in a spot of trouble if he has to challenge both McLarens and the Lotus machines in addition to the Red Bull chassis. Amazing how a season with 7 different winners in the first 7 contests has developed into a rather predictable affair...granted, I don't mind seeing SV win, but a bit more competition is always appreciated.
 
CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 3):
I see that the much hated "finger boy" is on top! Congrats to Sebastian Vettel, well on his way to a thrid and very well deserved championship.

  

Abu Dhabi is also a track where overtaking is extremely difficult, so whoever gets pole will have an advantage.

C'mon Sebastian!    
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:54 am

Great to see the Uropeen open wheel dudes turn out in Abu Dhabi to provide support races for the Orstralian V8 heros 

Seriously I think having the V8s race in AbuDhabi is a crime and will contribute to the beginning of the end of the series as we know it!(happened to IndyCar)

Having said that I think Yas Marina, Bahrain and a hand full of other locations have no place on the F1 calendar either.

Maybe I am some kind of iconoclast or perhaps a romantic dreamer but I fear the days of actually having races in locations where the fans actually attend and show some interest may be behind us.

The newly retired idiot that ran V8s wouldn't have races at Sydney Motorsport park becuase he claims spectators won't turn up... in Abu Dhabi he could get them all to the track in the same Taxi... I know the F1 race is better attended, they would need a bus for that one!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:18 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 4):
Maybe I am some kind of iconoclast or perhaps a romantic dreamer but I fear the days of actually having races in locations where the fans actually attend and show some interest may be behind us.

  

Likewise. Unfortunately, F1 has become too much of a business rather than a sport. It's a shame that grands prix seem to be going to the highest bidder rather than the best attended and best watched tracks.

Someone needs to tell Bernie that that's not a good way of increasing the popularity of F1.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 5):
F1 has become too much of a business rather than a sport.

As have V8SC, which is why next weekend I will be attending the Historic Sandown event, the Tasman revival meeting at SMP(Eastern Creek) 2 weeks later and whilst in March next year I will attend the AGP at Albert Park I will most certainly gain much more enjoyment from the Classic Phillip Island meeting on the preceding weekend.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:09 am

Seb's Newey-Bull has brake problems. He was out only for the last couple laps during FP3.
Let's see who will make pole later @ qualiifyings.
McLaren or Red Bull. Hammy? Jenson? Seb? It will be on a razor's edge.

Free practice 3 Results.

Pos Driver Team Laps
1 Hamilton GBR McLaren 18 in pits
2 Button GBR McLaren 17 on track
3 Vettel GER Red Bull 7 on track
4 Webber AUS Red Bull 18 on track
5 Hülkenberg GER Force India 18 on track
6 Grosjean FRA Lotus 18 in pits
7 Maldonado VEN Williams 19 in pits
8 Alonso ESP Ferrari 15 on track
9 Räikkönen FIN Lotus 22 on track
10 di Resta GBR Force India 19 in pits
11 Massa BRA Ferrari 17 in pits
12 Perez MEX Sauber 19 on track
13 Rosberg GER Mercedes 20 on track
14 Schumacher GER Mercedes 18 on track
15 Kobayashi JPN Sauber 21 on track
16 Vergne FRA Toro Rosso 17 on track
17 Senna BRA Williams 19 in pits
18 Ricciardo AUS Toro Rosso 18 on track
19 Kovalainen FIN Caterham 21 on track
20 Glock GER Marussia 19 in pits
21 Pic FRA Marussia 18 on track
22 Petrov RUS Caterham 22 in pits
23 de la Rosa ESP HRT 20 in pits
24 Karthikeyan IND HRT 22 in pits

     
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MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:28 pm

Qualifying 1

Pos Driver Team Laps
1 Vettel GER Red Bull 6 in pits
2 Webber AUS Red Bull 6 in pits
3 Button GBR McLaren 7 in pits
4 Hamilton GBR McLaren 5 in pits
5 Alonso ESP Ferrari 7 in pits
6 Massa BRA Ferrari 7 in pits
7 Schumacher GER Mercedes 8 in pits
8 Rosberg GER Mercedes 8 in pits
9 Räikkönen FIN Lotus 8 in pits
10 Grosjean FRA Lotus 11 in pits
11 di Resta GBR Force India 9 in pits
12 Hülkenberg GER Force India 10 in pits
13 Kobayashi JPN Sauber 10 in pits
14 Perez MEX Sauber 9 in pits
15 Ricciardo AUS Toro Rosso 8 in pits
16 Maldonado VEN Williams 10 in pits
17 Senna BRA Williams 10 in pits


18 Vergne FRA Toro Rosso 9 in pits
19 Kovalainen FIN Caterham 11 in pits
20 Pic FRA Marussia 10 in pits
21 Petrov RUS Caterham 11 in pits
22 Glock GER Marussia 9 in pits
23 de la Rosa ESP HRT 8 in pits
24 Karthikeyan IND HRT 9 in pits

S. Perez and B. Senna are under steward investigation.
I forgot to mention... the grandstands are rather empty. All of them...

    


Qualifying 2

Pos Driver Team Laps
1 Vettel GER Red Bull 10 in pits
2 Webber AUS Red Bull 11 in pits
3 Button GBR McLaren 14 in pits
4 Hamilton GBR McLaren 10 in pits
5 Alonso ESP Ferrari 11 in pits
6 Massa BRA Ferrari 13 in pits
7 Räikkönen FIN Lotus 14 in pits
8 Grosjean FRA Lotus 18 in pits
9 Rosberg GER Mercedes 14 in pits
10 Maldonado VEN Williams 18 in pits

11 Hülkenberg GER Force India 16 in pits
12 Perez MEX Sauber 17 in pits
13 di Resta GBR Force India 16 in pits
14 Schumacher GER Mercedes 14 in pits
15 Senna BRA Williams 18 in pits
16 Kobayashi JPN Sauber 17 in pits
17 Ricciardo AUS Toro Rosso 14 in pits
18 Vergne FRA Toro Rosso 9 in pits
19 Kovalainen FIN Caterham 11 in pits
20 Pic FRA Marussia 10 in pits
21 Petrov RUS Caterham 11 in pits
22 Glock GER Marussia 9 in pits
23 de la Rosa ESP HRT 8 in pits
24 Karthikeyan IND HRT 9 in pits

Two Saubers and two Force India are out.
The grandstands may be empty but the Paddock Club Hospitality (F1 for the mega-rich) are full.

    


Seb's Newey-Bull stopped on the track under the hotel. Wondering why.
He is not looking happy. They don't yet know what the problem is. Looks serious.
Could be fuel, gearbox, engine... he could take a penalty.

Grosjean is under investigation - incident with Alonso.

Hammy takes pole!

Qualifying 3 - Grid

Pos Driver Team Time
1 Hamilton GBR McLaren 1'40.630
2 Webber AUS Red Bull 1'40.978
3 Vettel GER Red Bull 1'41.073
4 Maldonado VEN Williams 1'41.226
5 Räikkönen FIN Lotus 1'41.260
6 Button GBR McLaren 1'41.290
7 Alonso ESP Ferrari 1'41.582
8 Rosberg GER Mercedes 1'41.603
9 Massa BRA Ferrari 1'41.723
10 Grosjean FRA Lotus 1'41.778
11 Hülkenberg GER Force India 1'42.019
12 Perez MEX Sauber 1'42.084
13 di Resta GBR Force India 1'42.218
14 Schumacher GER Mercedes 1'42.289
15 Senna BRA Williams 1'42.330
16 Kobayashi JPN Sauber 1'42.606
17 Ricciardo AUS Toro Rosso 1'42.765
18 Vergne FRA Toro Rosso 1'44.058
19 Kovalainen FIN Caterham 1'44.956
20 Pic FRA Marussia 1'45.089
21 Petrov RUS Caterham 1'45.151
22 Glock GER Marussia 1'45.426
23 de la Rosa ESP HRT 1'45.766
24 Karthikeyan IND HRT 1'46.382

 airplane   cheerful 

[Edited 2012-11-03 07:10:06]
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CPH-R
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:53 pm

A bit of a shocker, Vettel going to the back of the grid after being DQ'd for having to little fuel. He'll make up the places, but Alonso needs to get out front and put places between them.

I might actually tune in for that race.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 9):
A bit of a shocker, Vettel going to the back of the grid after being DQ'd for having to little fuel. He'll make up the places, but Alonso needs to get out front and put places between them.

I had no time to look at the latest Abu Dhabi updates.

So... his stop under the hotel (it was Renault asking him to stop not Newey/Bull) was because he had too little fuel not because of any engine/alternator problem?

This is one I never expected, even less that he would be retrograded all the way to the back of the grid. It is a shocker indeed. I was thinking he might have his title secured as Alonso is going to be starting from 7th place.

Let's see how it goes for Seb tomorrow. He did not look happy during the 3 men post race interview There was something different in his look. He did not know what the problem was and why they asked him to stop the car so now he knows.

I doubt he will catch up all these places to his first row place... Vettel in the back generally stays in the back but maybe a miracle will happen and he can win the race... though I doubt it. Alonso must be a happy bunny and I would think Hammy and Jenson are too. Not too sure about Mark Webber. I don't see him winning tomorrow.

I think the race will be interesting. Let's see if GrosJean crashes into anyone or into a wall. LOLOLOL
For once we will not have the usual pattern. Seb will be in the back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20193545

              
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:13 pm

Red Bull have decided to start Vettel from pit row as this will allow changes to the car otherwise not allowed under parc ferme. There is a loophole that needs to be closed and soon.
You break a rule and gain a technical advantage..convince me that is right!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 11):
Red Bull have decided to start Vettel from pit row as this will allow changes to the car

Would they change the engine?
Could they (either Renault or NeweyBull) not see from telemetry results that he did not have enough fuel in the tank for sampling?
This whole thing is strange. How come they decide to start him from the pit lane if not for wanting to make changes to the car?

    
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CPH-R
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Could they (either Renault or NeweyBull) not see from telemetry results that he did not have enough fuel in the tank for sampling?
This whole thing is strange. How come they decide to start him from the pit lane if not for wanting to make changes to the car?

I don't know if they updated it, but the BBC article you linked gives the answer. The team stopped him because they could spot a problem with the fuel cell, which they are allowed to do under the rules, and the stewarts accepted that. But when the car was returned to the paddock, it was found to have less than the mandatory litre of fuel left, which was why the penalty was imposed.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 13):
But when the car was returned to the paddock, it was found to have less than the mandatory litre of fuel left, which was why the penalty was imposed.

Yes I am surprised they did not detect the too little fuel problem before the final lap from the telemetry readings.

     Wow!  
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 10):
This is one I never expected, even less that he would be retrograded all the way to the back of the grid. It is a shocker indeed.

Why not? It's the same punishment that Hamilton got for the same offence.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 11):
There is a loophole that needs to be closed and soon.
You break a rule and gain a technical advantage..convince me that is right!

No, it's clearly wrong.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 15):
No, it's clearly wrong.

It gets even better....

Quoting Autosport:
A statement issued by the FIA a few hours ahead of the race revealed that Red Bull has replaced the gearbox of the car, made changes to the suspension and had also fitted new gear ratios to those submitted after second practice.

This does mean he will receive a grid drop penalty at the next race...doesn't it?
In fact it should be at least 5 places for the ratio change and 5 places if the Gearbox is outside the allowed change window... looking forward to how this farce plays out!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 16):
It gets even better....

I am looking at the overnight parc fermé rules
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/ru...sporting_regulations/8685/fia.html

A lot of changes/improvements on the cars are allowed under parc fermé.

  
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 17):
A lot of changes/improvements on the cars are allowed under parc fermé.


Well they aren't really, they are allowed if you don't qualify and are not required to abide by parc ferme rules.

But after a DQ for breaking rules that is an issue.

Gear ratio changes after P2 call for a 5 position penalty, that had better be applied at the next round.
A gearbox change for a gearbox not used 5 times is also a 5 place penalty!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:27 pm

The penalties are applied to the next race - ie, this one, because the changes are made prior to the race.

I've got no problems with that, as the same rules are available for everyone - if you want to change the car setup, you can if you elect to take the penalties associated with that, in other words go to the back of the grid. The fact that he's already at the back is neither here nor there.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:59 pm

Thank you all for this entertaining race with so much action!
My favourite of the season! That was some F1 today!

Seb started from the pit lane waaay back and finishes third - on the podium.
Good Seb! Congrats!

Congrats to Kimi for the win. I thought Alonso would pass him right at the end - but he didn't.

F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix results

Pos Driver No. Team Laps Last five Pits Best (Laps) Worst (Laps)
1 Kimi Räikkönen FIN 9 Lotus 55 1-1-1-1-1 1 1 (33) 4 (1)
2 Fernando Alonso ESP 5 Ferrari 55 2-2-2-2-2 1 2 (25) 7 (2)
3 Sebastian Vettel FL GER 1 Red Bull 55 3-3-3-3-4 2 2 (6) 24 (1)
4 Jenson Button GBR 3 McLaren 55 4-4-4-4-3 1 2 (2) 6 (19)
5 Pastor Maldonado VEN 18 Williams 55 5-5-5-5-5 1 2 (1) 11 (1)
6 Kamui Kobayashi JPN 14 Sauber 55 6-6-6-6-6 1 6 (17) 15 (1)
7 Felipe Massa BRA 6 Ferrari 55 7-7-7-7-7 1 5 (1) 15 (2)
8 Bruno Senna BRA 19 Williams 55 8-8-8-8-8 1 5 (2) 21 (1)
9 Paul di Resta GBR 11 Force India 55 9-9-9-9-9 3 5 (1) 23 (6)
10 Daniel Ricciardo AUS 16 Toro Rosso 55 10-10-10-10-10 2 10 (16) 16 (3)
11 Michael Schumacher GER 7 Mercedes 55 11-11-11-11-11 2 7 (3) 16 (1)
12 Jean-Éric Vergne FRA 17 Toro Rosso 55 12-12-12-12-12 2 5 (1) 17 (1)
13 Heikki Kovalainen FIN 20 Caterham 55 13-13-13-13-13 1 12 (8) 18 (1)
14 Timo Glock GER 24 Marussia 55 14-14-14-14-14 1 13 (1) 21 (1)
15 Sergio Perez MEX 15 Sauber 55 15-16-16-16-17 3 4 (2) 17 (7)
16 Vitaly Petrov RUS 21 Caterham 55 16-15-15-15-15 1 15 (13) 20 (1)
17 Pedro de la Rosa ESP 22 HRT 55 17-17-17-17-16 1 16 (7) 23 (1)
Retirement
Charles Pic FRA 25 Marussia 42 18-17-17-17-17 2 16 (2) 20 (6)
Mark Webber AUS 2 Red Bull 37 20-8-8-8-9 1 2 (1) 20 (1)
Romain Grosjean FRA 10 Lotus 37 19-5-5-6-6 2 5 (2) 22 (6)
Lewis Hamilton GBR 4 McLaren 19 21-1-1-1-1 0 1 (19) 21 (1)
Nico Rosberg GER 8 Mercedes 7 21-23-21-21-21 1 7 (1) 23 (1)
Narain Karthikeyan IND 23 HRT 7 19-22-19-19-19 0 19 (7) 23 (1)
Nico Hülkenberg GER 12 Force India 0 24-10 0 10 (1) 24 (1)

              
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:51 am

Quoting moo (Reply 19):
I've got no problems with that, as the same rules are available for everyone - if you want to change the car setup, you can if you elect to take the penalties associated with that, in other words go to the back of the grid. The fact that he's already at the back is neither here nor there.

That is not how it is supposed to work.
He received a penalty THEN made more transgressions.

Might technically be within the letter of some persons interpretation of the rules, doesn't make it less wrong!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:13 pm

It's fully within *any* reasonable interpretation of the current rules, and it doesn't make it wrong at all.
 
racko
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:26 pm

BUT IT'S EVIL VETTEL!!!1

And when evil Vettel is at work, even something as mundane as "you can get your car out of parc ferme whenever you want" becomes an evil conspiracy!
 
CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 11):
Red Bull have decided to start Vettel from pit row as this will allow changes to the car otherwise not allowed under parc ferme. There is a loophole that needs to be closed and soon.
You break a rule and gain a technical advantage..convince me that is right!

He didn't stop because he ran out of fuel (although that was found to be the case later), he stopped because there was an issue with the car. The stewards accepted that explanation, and that's good enough for me.

The fact that he was sent to the back of the grid for not having enough fuel is another matter. The penalty for finishing qualifying without enough fuel left in the tank to provide a sample is that the driver starts from the back of the grid. The penalty for changing the car setup under parc ferme conditions is that the driver starts from the back of the grid. Both penalties were duly taken, notwithstanding the fact that the penalties are exactly the same.

Quoting moo (Reply 19):
I've got no problems with that, as the same rules are available for everyone - if you want to change the car setup, you can if you elect to take the penalties associated with that, in other words go to the back of the grid. The fact that he's already at the back is neither here nor there.

  

Quoting moo (Reply 22):
It's fully within *any* reasonable interpretation of the current rules, and it doesn't make it wrong at all.

  
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sudden
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 24):
he stopped because there was an issue with the car. The stewards accepted that explanation, and that's good enough for me.

Rernault saw on the telemtri that fuel was too low and asked the team to stop the car! Even the team didn't know why at first. Race control decided to look in to this matter further, and voila, RBR made another attempt to cheat.

To be able alter car setup like this is just wrong. No matter if it's Vettel or anyone else, this rule needs to be tightened up.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:12 pm

I'm not sure where to post that, so I post it here. A week ago, Red Bull released a 360-degree on-board video camera during an event in Sweden. This is quite nice  http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...eleases-360-degree-on-board-video/

Oh, and congrats to Kimi for his win in Abu Dhabi. It's only well deserved for someone who's been constantly in the points this year. Overall, this is a great come back for him!
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:55 pm

"It was incredible how he came up. He must be the luckiest driver in F1." - Hamilton on Vettel

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting sudden (Reply 25):
Race control decided to look in to this matter further, and voila, RBR made another attempt to cheat.

Cheat? What tosh.

RB stopped the car on the track due to a warning from Renault - as you note, they didn't know why. The stewards accepted that explanation. Vettel was disqualified because he was still required to supply a 1ltr fuel sample, which they could not - both RB and Renault have said that the required fuel was in the car, but it was inaccessible due to the fuel cell issue that Renault detected in Q3, and as the rules state that the fuel sample must be taken without any disassembly of the car then the fuel was unavailable to be tested.

Through back channels I have heard that the issue detected was a pressurisation failure in the fuel cell - a seal had failed and air was getting into the fuel tank, restricting the ability for the fuel pump to uptake fuel and also preventing fuel from being pumped out by the invigilators for the fuel test (as that requires a sealed unit).

But some people love to make outrageous claims without any ability to back them up...
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 28):

How does a fuel cell become I accessible and why would Renault pick that up? Unless it imploded there no reason the FIA couldn't have gotten it out unless it simply wasn't there. You can believe whatever clap trap RBR and Renault feed you but the truth is they pushed the limit and went to far. Then through a loophole in the rules managed to gain a benefit from it. But then a lot it Vettels rivals taking each other out made his day substantially easier.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 23):
BUT AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT'S EVIL VETTEL!!!1

I will be the first to admit, I am no fan of Seb but that is not my issue, my complaint would stand who ever the driver or which ever team.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 24):
He didn't stop because he ran out of fuel (although that was found to be the case later), he stopped because there was an issue with the car. The stewards accepted that explanation, and that's good enough for me.

The fact that he was sent to the back of the grid for not having enough fuel is another matter. The penalty for finishing qualifying without enough fuel left in the tank to provide a sample is that the driver starts from the back of the grid. The penalty for changing the car setup under parc ferme conditions is that the driver starts from the back of the grid. Both penalties were duly taken, notwithstanding the fact that the penalties are exactly the same.

Understand completely the circumstances around the initial stoppage and the subsequent free pass from the stewards, understand why the DQ due to inability to supply a fuel sample.

My issue is rules that allow you to "commit" offences that would require significant penalties with impunity,

Allowing you to remove the compromises that are inevetibly made to balance qualifying and race conditions.

A fairer rule would be that in the case of DQ the car MUST remain in parc ferme AND start at the rear of the grid.

As I said this is not an anti RBR or SV rant, I just think there is a gap in the rules, Fixed by a simple one line amendment.


On a brighter note I wish the race was a little longer... would not have been long before KR told his engineer to "shut the f%^k up!!"
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 29):

"claptrap"? More tosh from someone who doesn't care about what actually happened, so long as they can get a good bash out of it.

All the engine manufacturers have their own telemetry on the cars, and they will be measuring engine specific things in huge depth - fuel flow, fuel richness, pump cavitations and vibrations, back pressures on the fuel pumps etc etc. lots of scope for detecting an issue where the team itself might not.

The FIA Technical Regulations for 2012 cover fuel sampling under section 6.6 - 6.6.3 and 6.6.4 cover restrictions on how the fuel sample can be taken, and the car cannot be disassembled to allow the sample to be taken, so if the fuel cell is compromised and the pump can't extract the fuel then the team violates 6.6.2.

I've already explained how the fuel cell can "become inaccessible" to both the FIA and cause irregularities in the engine, so it doesn't matter that it's actually there - the FIA won't ever try to get to the fuel cell, that's not their job.
 
racko
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 29):
How does a fuel cell become I accessible and why would Renault pick that up? Unless it imploded there no reason the FIA couldn't have gotten it out unless it simply wasn't there. You can believe whatever clap trap RBR and Renault feed you but the truth is they pushed the limit and went to far.

They are not allowed to remove body work under parc ferme.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 32):
They are not allowed to remove body work under parc ferme.

Actually up until three and a half hours after qualifying they are.
The issue is that the fuel sample must be obtainable without removing any bodywork.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting sudden (Reply 25):
To be able alter car setup like this is just wrong. No matter if it's Vettel or anyone else, this rule needs to be tightened up.

I don't agree. But hell, I don't like the Parc Ferme rule in the first place. "Back in my day" teams would build a car specifically set up for qualifying with tyres specifically designed to last no more than three laps and just enough fuel to do those three laps, then strip and rebuild the car to set it up for the race. That way, it allowed teams that struggled through qualifying for whatever reason to come back on song during the race.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 29):
You can believe whatever clap trap RBR and Renault feed you but the truth is they pushed the limit and went to far.

What evidence do you have to back up that statement? Do you have evidence to contradict RBR and Renault's explanation to the stewards, which, I might add, the stewards accepted was true?

Quoting stealthz (Reply 30):
My issue is rules that allow you to "commit" offences that would require significant penalties with impunity,

Allowing you to remove the compromises that are inevetibly made to balance qualifying and race conditions.

I don't agree that it's an issue. Ordinarily, if a driver has a technical issue, the team is entitled to change the car, which would incur a penalty. Vettel's problem wasn't an issue that was within the team's control, so I fail to see why his car should be in Parc Ferme. If that had occurred, then Vettel would go into the race with the same issue which would almost guarantee his retirement from the race on the first lap.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:11 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 34):
"Back in my day" teams would build a car specifically set up for qualifying with tyres specifically designed to last no more than three laps and just enough fuel to do those three laps, then strip and rebuild the car to set it up for the race. That way, it allowed teams that struggled through qualifying for whatever reason to come back on song during the race.

I assume your reffering to the 90's where they even ran engines that were spec. just for quali.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 34):
What evidence do you have to back up that statement? Do you have evidence to contradict RBR and Renault's explanation to the stewards, which, I might add, the stewards accepted was true?

aaand they did not find the explanation good enough in the end as they decided to look deeper in to it. For a valid reason I would say. RBR have pulled stunts before so rightfully the stewards did good.
Some people thinks that RBR is gods gift to F1.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting sudden (Reply 35):
aaand they did not find the explanation good enough in the end as they decided to look deeper in to it. For a valid reason I would say. RBR have pulled stunts before so rightfully the stewards did good.

Uhm, what? Which particular race weekend were you following, a fantasy one?

The stewards found no issue with RB and Renaults explanation for stopping on track, they did however find them in breach later of failing to supply a fuel sample under 6.6.2. They didn't decide to "look deeper", they just took the fuel sample they were entitled to take as normal (fuel samples are taken from all Q3 cars, and tested at random).

And while you are continually on RBs case, constantly claiming they have "pulled stunts before", you seem to be completely overlooking the illegal cars Ferrari, McLaren et al have all run in the past (and in several cases, especially Ferrari, have got away with it) - why do you seem to think RB is such a special case that you need to highlight it in every F1 thread? What's your issue?
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:28 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 34):
What evidence do you have to back up that statement? Do you have evidence to contradict RBR and Renault's explanation to the stewards, which, I might add, the stewards accepted was true?

Do you have evidence other than what Christian Horner said?

Listening to Christian Horner proclaim RBRs innocence is like listening to Craig Thompson.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 34):
I don't agree that it's an issue. Ordinarily, if a driver has a technical issue, the team is entitled to change the car, which would incur a penalty. Vettel's problem wasn't an issue that was within the team's control, so I fail to see why his car should be in Parc Ferme. If that had occurred, then Vettel would go into the race with the same issue which would almost guarantee his retirement from the race on the first lap.


I think you missed the point. Why should anyone be allowed to change their setup if they're excluded from Qualifying? No one is disputing allowing of repairs to be carried out.
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:41 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 38):
Do you have evidence other than what Christian Horner said?

The only evidence he needs is the fact that the stewards disqualified Vettel for failing to provide a fuel sample, not for failing to return to the pits under his own power. If the stewards had found issue with RBs explanation they would have DQ Vettel for the latter instead of the former - just as they did for Hamilton at the Spanish GP (he was DQ for failing to return to the pits).
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:29 am

So it turns out there was no issue with the car and the 'issue' Renault detected was the car running out of fuel.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104089

Apparently it was the Robots fault.
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:33 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 40):
So it turns out there was no issue with the car and the 'issue' Renault detected was the car running out of fuel.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104089

Apparently it was the Robots fault.

Moo and CXB77L, you were saying???

[Edited 2012-11-07 02:34:37]
When in doubt, flat out!
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting sudden (Reply 41):
Moo and CXB77L, you were saying???

That sound you're hearing. It's humble pie being eaten.
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 34):
I don't agree that it's an issue.

If something on the car is broken, then they should be able to fix it (and take the relevant punishment). What I, and others, find "wrong" is that the team can completely change anything on the car. RBR were already punished for not being able to provide 1L of fuel. They then had a free ride to change the car with no further punishment available.

It's not cheating, it's working within the rules. That doesn't mean the rules are correct.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:41 pm

This is a pictures collection from my friend Rita Xiumè. She just came back from at the race in Abu Dhabi.

She is an inveterate Schumi fan but you will get to spot other drivers too. What a great way to see everything that goes on in Schumi's garage. Lots of great pictures here.

http://s1269.beta.photobucket.com/us...itaxium/library/Abu%20Dhabi%202012

She will be travelling to the last race of the season in Sao Paulo as this will be Schumi's last Formula 1 race. Rita is a true die hard Schumi fan if there is one.

              

[Edited 2012-11-07 06:11:36]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:44 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 47):
Either way, it's not the team "cheating" or "trying to get away" with anything, it was a fault that could occur with any team, at any time. What were you saying in earlier threads about "luck"? This, right here, is a stroke of bad luck, nothing more.

I never said they cheated. I just said they pushed the limits too far. Isn't pushing the limit what F1 is all about?

As for the luck.. Vettel had a lot of it with his main rivals taking themselves out, meaning he only had to carry out actual passes on cars that were substantially slower. The hardest pass he had all day was on Button who, for some reason, he assumed would just get out of his way.
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:03 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 46):
meaning he only had to carry out actual passes on cars that were substantially slower.

I stick to my point that if they would not have changed the ratio of 7th gear it would not have been that easy. And he would never been able to catch Button even.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
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InsideMan
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2):
see that the much hated "finger boy"

really? hated? What gives? Too successful?

Quoting stealthz (Reply 21):
Might technically be within the letter of some persons interpretation of the rules, doesn't make it less wrong!

not wrong, just the rules applicable to everyone.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 29):
Then through a loophole in the rules managed to gain a benefit from it.

Given the choice between starting from pole or starting out of the box and being able to change your car, I'm sure everyone would prefer the pole, so how is this a benefit???
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:37 am

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 48):
so how is this a benefit???

As they opted to not start from the grid, this allowed them to work around the rule regarding the setup of the car. Pretty simple really.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:53 am

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 48):
Given the choice between starting from pole or starting out of the box and being able to change your car, I'm sure everyone would prefer the pole, so how is this a benefit???

Obviously pole is better. But why should you be allowed to change your setup after you've broken the rules?
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2012: Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 50):
But why should you be allowed to change your setup after you've broken the rules?

"You just hate Vettel. Leave the poor kid alone. Your so unfair!"
When in doubt, flat out!

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