AA7295
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Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:33 pm

I'm outraged. For the world's most advanced and largest economy I find the ENTIRE presidential election voting process primitive.

Firstly, I read this article:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/06/po...ection-voting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I am just shocked that there are problems with this voting machines. I mean seriously... there aren't many options to choose from, why are the machines stuffing up. It's so ridiculous I can't even fathom it. How many options are there, 8? My word... someone needs to lose their job.

Secondly, I know that in the US the states have lots of power, but here in Australia, elections are run by the Federal government agency the AEC (Australian Electoral Commission), and despite it being the law that every citizen must vote, it's always a smooth process and doesn't take long at all to vote. No breaking down of machines and consistency in every state. No ridiculous voter ID laws? We also have state and local council election that seem to work despite having a the AEC. I definetely think the US needs a federally run electoral agency, especially for presidential elections!

Thirdly, I get why back in the 1800s why Tuesday was chosen as the day for voting, but why not change it to Saturday. That way more people can vote? Sersiously... ridiculous again.

I like Obama, and he talks about change a lot, perhaps he should start with how elections are run.
 
L-188
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:56 pm

Why is the concept of getting carded at the polling station so hard for people to grasp?

How else do you ensure one person one vote
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Aesma
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:58 pm

Well there are many choices since you vote for the president but also the representative, sometimes the senator, the prosecutor, the sheriff, etc. Actually I think that alone is a problem, I'm sure it discourages and confuses many people.

BTW, is it possible to just chose the president and skip the rest ?
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:14 am

I agree. For a modern and rich country like the US, it gives a bad impression. Especially when all eyes of the world are watching.

In France we still use the good old ballot paper. An old-fashioned but good way to avoid problems. I would always have a small doubt when voting via an electronic device. But that's my paranoia talking.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Thirdly, I get why back in the 1800s why Tuesday was chosen as the day for voting, but why not change it to Saturday. That way more people can vote? Sersiously... ridiculous again.

American people can vote in advance. But I agree that voting on a weekday is not relevant anymore. Saturday would indeed be a good pick.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 4):
In France we still use the good old ballot paper. An old-fashioned but good way to avoid problems. I would always have a small doubt when voting via an electronic device. But that's my paranoia talking.

Read up on what happened in 2000 in Florida. They had paper ballots.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 4):
In France we still use the good old ballot paper. An old-fashioned but good way to avoid problems. I would always have a small doubt when voting via an electronic device.

  
Same thing here.

What's even more troubling is that voter turnout is always a factor and always in the same one direction. Also, it is more than troubling that IF voter turnout was to other "western standards" many simply couldn't vote.

Polls show that Americans don't want a large government that gets involved.
I wonder if Americans really care about an organized and capable election process that one way or the other would have to have been organized by "the government"? I think that's the main problem.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
BTW, is it possible to just chose the president and skip the rest ?

Yes.
 
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:39 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 5):
Read up on what happened in 2000 in Florida. They had paper ballots.

As far as I remember, Florida used ballot-punching machines. Am I wrong?

In France, you put your ballot paper in an enveloppe and then in a box, like this:



It is then counted and recounted manually by several people in front of dozens of witnesses. At least, that's how it works in my small city!
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 5):
Read up on what happened in 2000 in Florida. They had paper ballots.

True. Difference is in Europe we use pens not chads.  

I also want to point out that normally Graham and I do not agree on political issues.  
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I'm outraged. For the world's most advanced and largest economy I find the ENTIRE presidential election voting process primitive.

You left out, the worlds greatest democracy.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
but here in Australia, elections are run by the Federal government agency the AEC (Australian Electoral Commission), and despite it being the law that every citizen must vote, it's always a smooth process and doesn't take long at all to vote.

A very good system indeed.
And as you say, I've never had to wait longer than a few minutes in line.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
but why not change it to Saturday.

Woooooo, don't mention that word change......   

But yes, it is so very obvious, especially, if they want greater voter turn out and participation.

[Edited 2012-11-06 17:02:41]
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 8):
As far as I remember, Florida used ballot-punching machines. Am I wrong?

I see what you mean now; I thought you were refering to merely the use of electronic machines in general.

Yes, most were manually-operated punching machines. I'm not sure about the efficency of doing it by hand, but it would keep the highest standards.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 2):
Why is the concept of getting carded at the polling station so hard for people to grasp?

How else do you ensure one person one vote

Because it is not a problem. Vote fraud problems are primarily behind the scenes and not with people individually voting. It is in "mail in ballots" and the count, and ballot box stuffing, vote rigging, "pay for votes", all of which ID at the polls does nothing to address but yet that is where the real problems have been throughout history.

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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Thirdly, I get why back in the 1800s why Tuesday was chosen as the day for voting, but why not change it to Saturday. That way more people can vote? Sersiously... ridiculous again.

The first Tuesday after the first Monday in November is not a Constitutional date. Any senator or representative can sponsor a bill to get it changed. But, nobody does. Oh well. If there were enough of a popular outcry, maybe something would happen. But, if you move to Saturday, don't you disenfranchise Orthodox Jews?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
BTW, is it possible to just chose the president and skip the rest ?

Yup, you just mark the presidential part of the ballot. Leave the rest blank.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 4):
American people can vote in advance.

Not all. Some states have early voting. Some have mail in ballots. Others adhere to a strict 'absentee ballot' rule.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
For the world's most advanced and largest economy I find the ENTIRE presidential election voting process primitive.

I just came back from voting. I stuffed my ballot into the drive-thru box where there were probably three cars ahead of me. All very efficient here in Oregon. I could have mailed my ballot in instead, but didn't decide upon how I was going to vote on a couple of issues until this past weekend.

N.B. In Oregon, we may only vote either by mail or drop box. There are no longer any voting booths/precincts.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:51 am

I just finished voting and as I have every election since 1976 I marked boxes on the piece of paper with a pen and dropped it into a box.

And as for the original poster stating voting is mandatory. This is a good thing?
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
N.B. In Oregon, we may only vote either by mail or drop box. There are no longer any voting booths/precincts.

Its funny, because its sounds nice and all but I so very much disagree with the idea of that. I just find it a total anathema to free and fair voting to not have public voting with private booths. It is the simplest way to demonstrate that everyone is voting freely and of their own volition and choices.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 15):
I just finished voting and as I have every election since 1976 I marked boxes on the piece of paper with a pen and dropped it into a box.

  
To me this is the very best way to do it. Simple and easy.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-11-06 17:55:42]
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:00 am

Well if I was to change the way elections are ru. In this country.

1. Paper ballots, not electronic, not punch card

2, no early voting......that is what an absentee ballot is for

3. Id required......you need to prove you are eligible to buy a beer in a store, you should need to prove you are eligible to vote. Alaska has a good system. When you register to vote you are sent a registration card which is a valid id for going to the polls. Because of that there is no reason a registered voter should not have an I'd.

4. No open primaries. They are meant for parties to nominate their candidate. I almost would say they should run their own primaries, not the state but I don't trust them for corruption.

5. All primaries on on date. Enough with this rolling total over several months. It disenfranchises voters as totals come In And candidates do good or bad.

6. All candidates are allowed to debate. None of this two candidates when there are really five or six running. This will break up the monopoly of the two part system which was never intended by the founding fathers.

7. Returns can't be released until all polls in the country close. This was very bad earlier but still happens, I am seeing returns now and we still have two and a half hours until ours close...again disenfranchises. Maybe no announcement until 24 hours after the last poll closes

8. Standard poll hours, so everybody in every state has the same opportunity to vote, say 12 hours eight to eight.

9. Seperate primary, elections for president and vice president. Party members should have a say in the choice of their nomine

10, the anchient greeks had a system where they could in a normal election cycle vote out a senator. I propose the same thing. A nationwide vote on which senator and which congressman has made enough of an arse of themselves. Nationwide vote and the one that gets the most no votes cant run for reelection next cycle. It would impose term limits on the most offensive members and stopolitical grandstanding
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:38 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I'm outraged. For the world's most advanced and largest economy I find the ENTIRE presidential election voting process primitive.

I agree, and think it should all be done by popular vote, not electoral.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Thirdly, I get why back in the 1800s why Tuesday was chosen as the day for voting, but why not change it to Saturday. That way more people can vote? Sersiously... ridiculous again.

This has been brought up, especially after hearing about the horrendous lines to vote. Some were 6 hours long, absolutely asinine.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 4):
I agree. For a modern and rich country like the US, it gives a bad impression. Especially when all eyes of the world are watching.

Modern yes, however rich...LoL, I guess if you count 16 trillion in debt as rich sure :p With all eyes watching on us, I hope they at least are getting a good laugh, personally I find the whole thing pretty embarrassing.

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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 5):
Read up on what happened in 2000 in Florida. They had paper ballots.

But not paper ballots like this :



You just can't do simpler.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:37 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
How else do you ensure one person one vote

You get your name marked off the electoral role and if you're found to have voted more than once you get your ass kicked.
 
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
How else do you ensure one person one vote

we have a system which has every eligible voters name recorded and printed at the polling station in your area, you go there, give your name, they mark it off and you get your card and vote.

if you're found to have voted twice it's going to cost you a fair chunk of change..then again why would you bother?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
You left out, the worlds greatest democracy.

according to Lord Downer, yes.   but it's really representative democracy.
 
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:07 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I am just shocked that there are problems with this voting machines. I mean seriously... there aren't many options to choose from, why are the machines stuffing up.

Basically, because voting is done at a municipal level, which means each municipality has their own style of voting machines and their own budget for acquiring and maintaining those machines.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Thirdly, I get why back in the 1800s why Tuesday was chosen as the day for voting, but why not change it to Saturday. That way more people can vote? Sersiously... ridiculous again.

I like Obama, and he talks about change a lot, perhaps he should start with how elections are run.

As we found out with voter ID, this is a hugely sensitive subject. There should be a bi-partisan effort to improve this situation, but it's filled with political land mines.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
Why is the concept of getting carded at the polling station so hard for people to grasp?

Sigh, not again...

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):
In France we still use the good old ballot paper.

Actually we do in my municipality too. To me it's the only thing that makes sense. Computer touch screens are an incredibly poor idea. Whomever was in favor obviously was computer illiterate or worse. In my town we make marks on a ballot using black ink, and that paper is then optically scanned. If there's ever an issue, the ballots can be re-scanned. How can you get computers to be re-touched? It's much cheaper too: one scanner per polling location instead of one computer per voting booth.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 4):
Read up on what happened in 2000 in Florida. They had paper ballots.

Actually they had pre-punched cards, which are indeed paper, but not the same as what France uses.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
The first Tuesday after the first Monday in November is not a Constitutional date. Any senator or representative can sponsor a bill to get it changed. But, nobody does.

And they can make election day be a mandatory holiday like it used to be in the past, but they chose not to.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
I just came back from voting. I stuffed my ballot into the drive-thru box where there were probably three cars ahead of me. All very efficient here in Oregon. I could have mailed my ballot in instead, but didn't decide upon how I was going to vote on a couple of issues until this past weekend.

N.B. In Oregon, we may only vote either by mail or drop box. There are no longer any voting booths/precincts.

That is so sensible. Get the ballots out early enough so that people can read through and make their mind up at their leisure, and vote when they are ready.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
no early voting......that is what an absentee ballot is for

I disagree. Voting day should be a deadline, not an event.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:30 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
BTW, is it possible to just chose the president and skip the rest ?

Why, the most important thing the American people were voting for was not the President, to the rest of the world it was but to them they were voting for a lot of other things. A good suggesstion is to take a look at a sample of the ballots in a number of counties, municipalities etc. local and state issues dominate the ballots for things such as schools, roads, police and fire departments, bond issues, local politicians and on and on it goes. As the majority of issues were state and local it stands to reason that the local would control the voting process from start to finish, hence teh comment below by another poster.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
Not all. Some states have early voting. Some have mail in ballots. Others adhere to a strict 'absentee ballot' rule.

Obama mentioned the delays in his acceptance speech, but the Feds power to change and or mandate a country wide solution is limited by the constitution, the state when the USA was created did not give up all their rights, they actually retained a whole lot.

It would be interesting to see the turnout of voters if the presidential election was held by itself, all bets are off on the turnout.
 
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:52 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):
For a modern and rich country like the US, it gives a bad impression

Tip of the iceberg dude...the more "advanced" we become, the dummer we act. Besides...It is all Bushes fault.
 
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:15 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
You left out, the worlds greatest democracy.

The USA is a republic, not a democracy. In a democracy, the leader is determined by who has the highest number of votes, and each vote is worth the same. Both are not true in the USA, so it is not a democracy.

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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
You just can't do simpler.

Obiously you can, because the wrong one was elected.           

But in all seriousness, I already clarifed what I meant above---I was reffering to the use of electronics in general.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 22):
It would be interesting to see the turnout of voters if the presidential election was held by itself, all bets are off on the turnout.

Have a look at how turnout is much higher in years with presidential elections. http://www.idea.int/vt/countryview.cfm?CountryCode=US
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:59 pm

as per equal protection clause (see Gore vs Bush 2000) all votes should count equal, why there is no majority to remove the electoral college system is beyond me....

Also, vote on a Sunday and with seperate ballots for each vote. That way the one for the presidential race is the same in all 50 states and should be much faster.

Where I live I never waited more than 5 minutes to vote. I don't know if it is because of lower capita per poll station ratios or just better organisation. If I had to wait in line for 3 hours or more I wouldn't vote, especially in non competitive states....
 
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 27):

as per equal protection clause (see Gore vs Bush 2000) all votes should count equal, why there is no majority to remove the electoral college system is beyond me.

All votes do count equally. We don't have national elections in the U.S. My vote counted just as equally here in my local election here in Oregon as everyone else's.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 28):
All votes do count equally. We don't have national elections in the U.S. My vote counted just as equally here in my local election here in Oregon as everyone else's.

Posture all you want but the fact is that for electing the President, your vote means almost nothing unless you're in a swing state. The guys in Ohio, Florida etc - their votes meant a million times more than those in Alabama, New York, California etc.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
You left out, the worlds greatest democracy.
Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 24):
The USA is a republic, not a democracy. In a democracy, the leader is determined by who has the highest number of votes, and each vote is worth the same. Both are not true in the USA, so it is not a democracy.

Soren

  

The US of A is a constitutional Republic where it has some similarities to a democracy in that it uses a democratic process to elect representatives and pass new laws.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I definetely think the US needs a federally run electoral agency, especially for presidential elections!

When creating the U.S. Constitutional, the forefathers designed a system to avoid the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. In a republic, the federal government serves the people, not the other way around. Limiting federal powers, and giving it to the individual states (representing individuals) is one way to achieve balance.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 27):
as per equal protection clause (see Gore vs Bush 2000) all votes should count equal, why there is no majority to remove the electoral college system is beyond me....

A national campaign would lead to a national outreach with much greater emphasis on large metropolitan areas such as Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Houston, and Atlanta, for example, There would be little incentive for campaigns to account to the needs and desires of citizens in differing states and regions that lay in between.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 29):
The guys in Ohio, Florida etc - their votes meant a million times more than those in Alabama, New York, California etc.

You could give Ohio and Florida to Romney, and he still wouldn't have won. You could even give Virginia to Romney, and he still wouldn't have won.

Your argument is invalid. The "Midwest Firewall" supporting the coasts is where Obama won this election. That's a broad base of support regardless of what happened in OH, FL or VA.

[Edited 2012-11-07 09:47:16]
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
The "Midwest Firewall" supporting the coasts is where Obama won this election. That's a broad base of support regardless of what happened in OH, FL or VA.

And he probably would have won NC too if he did the "politically correct" thing and not speak out in favor of gay marriage, which pissed off all the bible thumpers down there. I'm sure it'll be a non-issue four years from now.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I'm outraged

Why do you care? Are you a US citizen?

Seriously, my #1 pet peeve is foreigners meddling in the domestic affairs of my country. I can imagine how annoyed Americans get when foreigners start hooting and hollering like a bunch of 2-bit backbenchers during every federal election.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
but why not change it to Saturday. That way more people can vote?

Less people would show up on a day-off, instead of taking an extra paid break from work to vote.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
Why is the concept of getting carded at the polling station so hard for people to grasp?

It's not. What the right does not get is: THERE IS NO VOTER FRAUD AT ALL!!! Also, what the right does not get is: they tried to ram through those laws so close to a presidential election that is looked very, very shady. Those laws should be passed within the next six months.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
How else do you ensure one person one vote

Since there already exists one person, one vote, that point is moot.

My question is: how do we ensure that people who fill out voter registration cards actually will get to vote? Remember that all over Colorado and Florida, the only voter registration cards filled out correctly and turned in belonged to Republican voters. Those who registered as third party or Democrat either had their card thrown away or had their address altered.

But, that is not important, I guess. Just make sure ID is shown for all those Republican voters!

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
. When you register to vote you are sent a registration card which is a valid id for going to the polls. Because of that there is no reason a registered voter should not have an I'd.

Yep. That is how every state in the West does it. But, apparently, there is still voter fraud.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:56 pm

LOL, perhaps the voting process IS ridiculous in America:

http://isnatesilverawitch.com/

 Wow!    
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Birdwatching
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 33):
Why do you care? Are you a US citizen?
Seriously, my #1 pet peeve is foreigners meddling in the domestic affairs of my country.

Domestic affairs? The elections in the USA are very relevant for the whole world, presidential elections in the US are not really a "domestic affair". It is everybody's right to be interested in the US elections as it will seriously shape world politics.

It's as relevant for AA7295 in Australia as it is to you in Canada.

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eatmybologna
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
THERE IS NO VOTER FRAUD AT ALL!!!

If this is true, why do poll workers go through such a great extent to prevent it from occurring in the first place?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
Also, what the right does not get is: they tried to ram through those laws so close to a presidential election that is looked very, very shady.

The first state adopting a voter ID law was Indiana in 2006. Since then 27 more sates have added voter ID requirements, for a total of 28 states. That's 28 states over a period of six + years...not exactly close to a presidential election.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
But, apparently, there is still voter fraud.

Yes, voter fraud & election manipulation exists. http://www.newburyportnews.com/opini...9659494/Voter-fraud-affects-us-all
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting eatmybologna (Reply 37):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
Also, what the right does not get is: they tried to ram through those laws so close to a presidential election that is looked very, very shady.

The first state adopting a voter ID law was Indiana in 2006. Since then 27 more sates have added voter ID requirements, for a total of 28 states. That's 28 states over a period of six + years...not exactly close to a presidential election.

One of my biggest issue with the voter ID laws was that they were brought out too near an important election. While I don't particularly support "voter ID at the polls" it doesn't bother me much at all provided it is instituted in an appropriate manner (well before an election, clear assistance to all to ensure people have access and no disenfranchisement occurs, alternatives to allow people to vote with confirmation later if needed).

To me the biggest farce about it all was the idea that requiring voter ID at the polls would truly have any kind of real effect on the validity of the votes and prevent vote fraud. As I have mentioned many times before, the real problem of vote fraud occurs in many other channels in the voting process and ID'ing someone at the polls is mostly window dressing.

Vote fraud is serious and must be prevented but attention and money and effort should be in the areas that have the biggest effect first, then go down the threat list from there. Voter ID requirements is OK as a low effort part of that but it can't be implemented in a manner that disrupts legitimate persons right to vote.

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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 38):
To me the biggest farce about it all was the idea that requiring voter ID at the polls would truly have any kind of real effect on the validity of the votes and prevent vote fraud. As I have mentioned many times before, the real problem of vote fraud occurs in many other channels in the voting process and ID'ing someone at the polls is mostly window dressing.

I have a modest proposal:

Death penalty for voter fraud INCLUDING voter intimidation, harassment, or intentionally trying to mislead voters (i.e. telling them the wrong polling station or wrong voting time or saying there is a Voter ID law when there isn't).

Death penalty by defining it as sedition. Which it is, really. An attempt to overthrow or undermine the legitimately elected government.

Seriously, the Right thinks voter fraud is such a big deal? OK, let's play ball. Because almost every case of voter fraud that actually happened in this election was done by the Right. Right-wing politicians doing robocalls to left-leaning precincts claiming that the polling station was other than it was. Thugs standing outside traditionally liberal polling stations pretending to check people off on a list and telling them that they were ineligible. The list goes on.

Try them and execute them if found guilty. You want to be tough on crime? Let's be tough on crime. I don't see how the GOP could be opposed to it; they favor the death penalty in general and they seem very concerned about voter fraud. Yet somehow, I suspect they would not like this plan.

I do wonder why.
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eatmybologna
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 38):
As I have mentioned many times before, the real problem of vote fraud occurs in many other channels in the voting process and ID'ing someone at the polls is mostly window dressing.

Yes, I agree - vote fraud comes in many forms. ID'ing at the polls, combined with a national database from which pollers can cross reference voters would be helpful to reduce some fraud.

Here's an excerpt from the link I provided....

Fraud can affect entire elections and starts at the point of registration. A 2004 study by the New York Daily News found that 46,000 people were registered to vote in both Florida and New York City, and that between 400 and 1,000 of them had voted in both places in the same election. The 2000 presidential election was decided by 537 votes. A recent Pew Center study found that approximately 2.8 million people are registered to vote in more than one state. As many as 1.8 million registered voters are dead.There is no national database to enable states to cross-reference registration and voter records. In the 20 states where officials match records, thousands of people turned up as possibly double voting in the 2010 general election. Elections are often tight races, a few hundred or thousand votes could affect the outcome. Twenty states cross-checking found 7,600 potential voter fraud cases in Illinois alone!
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eatmybologna
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
I do wonder why.

I'm a registered republican, but do not favor the death penalty. Nor do a majority of my republican, democratic, and independent friends and family.

But yes, I would would favor a punishment fit to those who are caught guilty of voter fraud. Perhaps community service and a fine, along with voting privileges revoked for ten years. Otherwise, a simple slap on the wrist advocates more fraud for the future.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
Death penalty by defining it as sedition. Which it is, really. An attempt to overthrow or undermine the legitimately elected government.

I don't think so. In the USA, voting and an absolute, unadulterated electoral process belongs to the people - one that must be protected by the government. A manipulation of this right in any form is against the legitimacy of the people, not specifically, an elected government.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
Death penalty for voter fraud

I really wouldn't go that far, even though it is a felony. The FBI was brought in to investigate a case of voter fraud in the county where I vote:

Suspect in Clackamas County Voting Fraud Case Claims Only Two Ballots Were Involved

Death penalty for completing two ballots? Hmm. Don't think so.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 33):
Seriously, my #1 pet peeve is foreigners meddling in the domestic affairs of my country. I can imagine how annoyed Americans get when foreigners start hooting and hollering like a bunch of 2-bit backbenchers during every federal election.

Really ?

The US election effects the entire world (unfortunately), and because of that little fact, everyone feels as though they can have a say on the matter, and I agree with that. Americas election was widely broadcast here on the TV for months bringing it into everyone lounge rooms.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 33):
instead of taking an extra paid break from work to vote.

You get paid to vote ?
How bizarre.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 36):
It is everybody's right to be interested in the US elections as it will seriously shape world politics.

Well said !
Mystifying isn't it, that others here feel that its only US citizens who can have an opinion  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
I do wonder why.

What, the death penalty ? Are you really serious about this ?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 42):
Death penalty for completing two ballots? Hmm. Don't think so.

Lets not go there please.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 43):
Quoting TheCol (Reply 33):
instead of taking an extra paid break from work to vote.

You get paid to vote ?
How bizarre.

I think he meant you are paid to work, and when there are elections, your employer is obligated to give you time to go to the polls, so you get a paid break from work.
Unfortunately, with some of the long lines in Miami - Dade in Florada, one might have been better off staying at work  
 
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
so you get a paid break from work

To go and vote. Ergo, you're paid to vote.   
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:25 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 36):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 43):

I was referring to the electoral process in the US. There is really nothing to warrant any special concern from the rest of the free world. It's doubtful most Americans care what we think about it, nor should they.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:32 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 42):
Death penalty for completing two ballots? Hmm. Don't think so

Was it intentional? If so, why not? d

Imagine if there were a death penalty; I doubt he would have done it.

See, the issue with using the death penalty for murder is that it doesn't deter the crime for one of two reasons:

1) First-degree: the murderer thinks he can get away with it and thus is not deterred by the consequences.
2) Second-degree: the murderer isn't thinking about the consequences at the time of the crime.

With voter fraud, it's very likely you'll get caught and the price of life would be awesomely high. I bet it would deter all but the most die-hard fraudsters.
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
Was it intentional? If so, why not?

Punishment is supposed to be appropriate for the crime. You're as far out in Looney Tunes land with this as you were with the Libertarians to win the vote for President in West Virginia. SMH
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RE: Why Is The Voting Process In The US So Ridiculous?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting eatmybologna (Reply 37):
If this is true, why do poll workers go through such a great extent to prevent it from occurring in the first place?

to disenfranchise people supporting the "wrong" party of their vote, most likely to affect the poor and minorities aka Democrat supporters

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